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PICList Thread
'Slight [OT] - FS PM Emulator stuff'
1999\04\15@013847 by Tjaart van der Walt

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"John A. Craft" wrote:
>
> I guess i'm gonna move to some other emulator, but here's a chance to get
> an emulator at my loss.

What are you moving to?

I am currently in a conundrum. We are in the process of
re-designing a lot of our products to keep up with the
ever-changing standards. This has given us the opportunity
to step back and have a hard look at what is going on the
the world of micros.

Just after I was told that I will be getting an engineering
sample of the 16C877, a collegue had a *very* interesting
chat with Atmel.

They are offering the AT90LS8535 AVR for almost *half* the price
of what the 16C877 will cost. In addition to saving us a fortune,
the AVR also
1) Runs 60% faster at 8MHz than the 20MHz PIC
2) Has 512 bytes of RAM
3) Has 512 bytes of EEPROM
4) Has an internal real time clock with a seperate oscillator
5) Is also 8k flash, ICSP, 44pin etc.

Which brings me to the reason I asked which emulator you are
moving to.

The local distributors for AVR said they are willing to *give*
us an emulator that will handle the AT90LS8535 as well as all
the smaller AVR's too.

Are you going to buy the new Mchip emulator? I have a PICMaster
and am pissed that I have to buy a new emulator just because
they say so.

I have spoken to the South African rep for Mchip and told him
about the price issue. Maybe Steve Shangi will wake up and
smell the coffee. We have already smelled the coffee, and I
can tell you it is espresso!

If the PIClisters stay as complacent as they are now, it won't
contribute much though.

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1999\04\15@103539 by Darrel Johansen

picon face
    "John A. Craft" wrote:
    >
    > I guess i'm gonna move to some other emulator, but here's a chance
    > to get an emulator at my loss.

    Tjaart wrote:
    > >Are you going to buy the new Mchip emulator? I have a PICMaster
    > and am pissed that I have to buy a new emulator just because
    > they say so.

    No one at Microchip is forcing anyone to buy a new emulator.  People
    are still buying PICMASTERs, and they are quite a bargain now.

    MPLAB-ICE is a new design built around new capabilities of the latest
    generation emulator chips.  This design, among other new features,
    allows the emulator to "see" the internal data bus of the PICmicro,
    allowing you to break on register values.  Also, the trace analyzer
    captures reads and writes to registers, so you can watch your code and
    see the values change in variables as your code executes in real time.
    Neither PICMASTER nor any other PICmicro emulator have the logic to do
    this.

    (This is not to say that there aren't good emulators out there from
    third parties.  There are, and many are well-designed and
    well-supported.  I would expect that eventually they, too, will offer
    new designs to take advantage of the emulator silicon features)

    PICMASTER owners were offered a very good price if they wished to
    upgrade to MPLAB-ICE, but PICMASTER is still supported --it works the
    same way it always did, supports the same parts, and functions just
    fine.  It just doesn't have the capability to take advantage of the
    new emulator silicon.

    We're proud of our new design and hope that our customers will
    appreciate all the labor and hard work that's gone into the product.
    It's quite competitively price for the features, and, if I do say so
    myself, the support is tremendous.   And did I say it runs under
    MPLAB? :-)

    Darrel Johansen
    Microchip Technology Inc.

1999\04\15@112958 by Andy Kunz

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>     myself, the support is tremendous.   And did I say it runs under
>     MPLAB? :-)

Oh, well, you can't win them all.

Does MCHP plan to open the comm spec up so third-parties can support the
new product?  That would tremendously help sales of the hardware, because
people could mix and match to get the best solution.

An open bus is a utilized bus.

Andy

==================================================================
Montana Design - http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics & Model Boats
==================================================================

1999\04\15@113208 by John A. Craft

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>     PICMASTER owners were offered a very good price if they wished to
>     upgrade to MPLAB-ICE, but PICMASTER is still supported --it works the

Like off topic post on this list, what good price means is up for debate.
If you consider what we paid (retail) for the PicMaster, probes, etc.  The
"good price" didn't seem appealing.

>     It's quite competitively price for the features, and, if I do say so
>     myself, the support is tremendous.   And did I say it runs under
>     MPLAB? :-)
>
Yes, but if I might say so, it does none of the above wonderful things
under window NT.

NT and 32 bit programming have been around quite a long time now, and
should not have been a big suprise.


John Craft



John A. Craft                                                   (601)689-8103 Vo
ice
Sr. Systems Analyst / Vice President                    (601)689-8130 Fax
Nation Computer Services, Inc.                          http://www.ncs-ssc.com
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m
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1999\04\15@124524 by Andy Stephenson

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At 07:29 15/04/99 -0700, you wrote:
>     > >Are you going to buy the new Mchip emulator? I have a PICMaster
>     > and am pissed that I have to buy a new emulator just because
>     > they say so.
>
>     No one at Microchip is forcing anyone to buy a new emulator.  People
>     are still buying PICMASTERs, and they are quite a bargain now.
>
>     PICMASTER owners were offered a very good price if they wished to
>     upgrade to MPLAB-ICE, but PICMASTER is still supported --it works the
>     same way it always did, supports the same parts, and functions just
>     fine.  It just doesn't have the capability to take advantage of the
>     new emulator silicon.
>
But I guess that new devices won't be supported on PICMASTER's right? So to
use the new devices, you must take the plunge on an MPLAB-ICE?

Is the 87x stuff supported by PICMASTER?

Please let me know.

Rgds...

...Andy

1999\04\15@130615 by jvd

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Does the new MBLAB - ICE support interrupts?  Or any emulator?

Jason

1999\04\15@132515 by Darrel Johansen

picon face
    Tjaart wrote:
    >If I migrated to a new PIC device, I'd have to buy a new emulator. If
    >that isn't 'forcing', it is at least 'aggressive coercion'. You guys
    >know very well that companies spend huge amounts of cash on
    >development platforms, so to change to a new one is usually not cost
    >effective.

    >The only reason the PICMaster is a bargain now, is because it will
    >only support old devices. Clearing the shelves so to speak.

    PICMASTER supports most current devices, not just "old" ones.  I don't
    know why you think we do "aggressive coercion."  Many people on this
    list probably design products that have a life cycle, then come out
    with newer, cheaper, better products.  How many provide a free new
    product (or even discounted as MPLAB-ICE is for PICMASTER users) to
    those who purchased the first product?

    >ATMEL has sent us a free emulator. The price of the AT90LS8535 is
    >half the price of the 16C877 (with more performance), and they even
    >offered to port our current PIC code to the AVR platform. We
    >obviously need to make a major platform desicion soon, so I need to
    >know if Microchip is coming to the party. The current pricing
    >policy on the midrange PICs is to say the least, surprising.
    >
    >Do you think that Microchip is willing to revise this policy soon?

    I think ATMEL should give everybody a free emulator.  Will they give one
    to everyone on this list?  They could also give everyone free parts, too,
    then our prices would be infinitely more expensive. On the other hand,
    we'll still be in the microcontroller business and be able to provide
    parts for you in the future. :-)

    I don't set prices or policy, and this portion of the discussion should
    not be done on the PICLIST.  It sounds like ATMEL is being very aggressive
    trying to steal you away from Microchip.  We'd like to have your business,
    but PACE decides whether they can give you a competitive offer.

    Darrel Johansen

1999\04\15@134127 by Dave VanHorn

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>      PICMASTER supports most current devices, not just "old" ones.  I
don't
>      know why you think we do "aggressive coercion."  Many people on this
>      list probably design products that have a life cycle, then come out
>      with newer, cheaper, better products.  How many provide a free new
>      product (or even discounted as MPLAB-ICE is for PICMASTER users) to
>      those who purchased the first product?


What IS the picmaster discount deal?

1999\04\15@184537 by TrionicIan

picon face
> >     > >Are you going to buy the new Mchip emulator? I have a PICMaster
>  >     > and am pissed that I have to buy a new emulator just because
>  >     > they say so.
>  >
>  >     No one at Microchip is forcing anyone to buy a new emulator.  People
>  >     are still buying PICMASTERs, and they are quite a bargain now.
>  >
>  >     PICMASTER owners were offered a very good price if they wished to
>  >     upgrade to MPLAB-ICE, but PICMASTER is still supported --it works the
>  >     same way it always did, supports the same parts, and functions just
>  >     fine.  It just doesn't have the capability to take advantage of the
>  >     new emulator silicon.
>  >
>  But I guess that new devices won't be supported on PICMASTER's right? So to
>  use the new devices, you must take the plunge on an MPLAB-ICE?
>

The new PIC16C505 is *NOT* going to be supported ...
Nice low cost part, but massive development cost because we have to replace
our (only six month old) PIC development kit ...
If Microchip had admitted when they did their special pricing last year that
they were selling about-to-be-obsolete equipment, we may have thought again.

Ian C.

1999\04\15@185203 by TrionicIan

picon face
>      PICMASTER supports most current devices, not just "old" ones.  I don't
>       know why you think we do "aggressive coercion."  Many people on this
>       list probably design products that have a life cycle, then come out
>       with newer, cheaper, better products.  How many provide a free new
>       product (or even discounted as MPLAB-ICE is for PICMASTER users) to
>       those who purchased the first product?
>
My issue with this is:
1. When we bought the discounted PICMASTER late last summer there was no
indication that parts already then being announced (PIC16C505) were never
going to be supported.

2. I have not checked recently ... but is there any indication NOW that the
PICMASTER does not support all CURRENT products, ignoring what might happen
in the future (nothing in the Digikey catalog, for example).

3. Yes it is lower priced ... but as an obsolete tool, it is still too pricey.

Ian C.

1999\04\15@193430 by Andy Kunz

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face
>If Microchip had admitted when they did their special pricing last year that
>they were selling about-to-be-obsolete equipment, we may have thought again.

If you had attended a Microchip seminar, you would have known!

Andy

==================================================================
Montana Design - http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics & Model Boats
==================================================================

1999\04\15@220137 by John A. Craft

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At 07:31 PM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>If Microchip had admitted when they did their special pricing last year that
>>they were selling about-to-be-obsolete equipment, we may have thought again.
>
>If you had attended a Microchip seminar, you would have known!
>

Come on Andy, you can't expect all of us to attend those things.  I've
never been to one, and I don't think they even have em' around my area.

I just feel the MicroChip should treat developers a little better as
pricing is concerned.  Face it, the developer is not where MC makes their
money.  I'm sure that sales of the MPLAB-ICE when compared to total sales
is a very small number.  So why not give the developers a real break, we
are the ones who initially suggest platforms for our customers who in turn
make the big purchases.

Jc.



John A. Craft                           (601)689-8100 Voice
Vice President, Sr. Analyst             (601)689-8130 Fax
Nation Computer Services, Inc.  http://www.ncs-ssc.com
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Stennis Space Center, MS  39529

1999\04\15@233153 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 21:59 04/15/99 -0500, John A. Craft wrote:
>At 07:31 PM 4/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>>If Microchip had admitted when they did their special pricing last year that
>>>they were selling about-to-be-obsolete equipment, we may have thought again.
>>
>>If you had attended a Microchip seminar, you would have known!
>
>Come on Andy, you can't expect all of us to attend those things.  I've
>never been to one, and I don't think they even have em' around my area.

some time ago i bought an emulator, and when i heard about the microchip
deal, i asked here on the list about it. i was promptly informed that they
would not make any new device modules (by andy :), which then microchip
confirmed to me. so it seems to have been pretty public -- when even i
could figure it out :)

>is a very small number.  So why not give the developers a real break, we
>are the ones who initially suggest platforms for our customers who in turn
>make the big purchases.

but i sure don't have a problem with this :)

ge

1999\04\16@014127 by Tjaart van der Walt

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Dave VanHorn wrote:
>
> >      PICMASTER supports most current devices, not just "old" ones.  I
> don't
> >      know why you think we do "aggressive coercion."  Many people on this
> >      list probably design products that have a life cycle, then come out
> >      with newer, cheaper, better products.  How many provide a free new
> >      product (or even discounted as MPLAB-ICE is for PICMASTER users) to
> >      those who purchased the first product?
>
> What IS the picmaster discount deal?

You can buy a new emulator at a big discount if you own a PICMaster.
Until they bring out a new one, that is... :(

I don't think there was *anyone* more vocally supportive of the
PICMaster over the past two years than me. I apologise if my
positive comments is costing anyone now.

Like they say : your feet are never too big to fit in your mouth.
I have size 12's, so it is quite unpleasant. Oh well.

--
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