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'PIC embedded Web Server????'
1998\01\29@163357 by Gary T. Pepper

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face
Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone has ever seen or developed an application where
any PIC processor (I assume one of the higher performance devices) was used
as the basis for an embedded web server?  You might find this question a
bit surprising, however, I have recently read an article about an embedded
web server designed around an 8051 CPU (see Circuit Cellar Ink, pp 60-64,
volume #88, Nov 1997).  In this article, the remote-server software
"engine" is said to typically consume just over 1 kilobyte of ROM and ~30
bytes of RAM!  If this is true, why couldn't a high-end PIC processor be
used in a similar application?

BTW, the application in the above article was simply to turn a red and
green LED on and off and to vary the intensity of the LEDs, remotely via
the WWW, of course.  The article does provide some interesting food for
thought, however, as to what could be done with a relatively cheap embedded
web server!

Any comments from any PIC gurus (or anybody else, for that matter) "out
there"?  I thought that this would be a terrific application for a PIC, if
the right software "development tools" were available.

Regards,
Gary Pepper

e-mail: spam_OUTgpepperTakeThisOuTspamcapitalnet.com

1998\01\29@165710 by WF AUTOMACAO

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face
Gary T. Pepper wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I have developted something like, but using as Front End, the Delphi accessing
the Winsock.dll.

Not for WEB, but is the beginner!

In february 98, my article will be avaliable the article on ELEKTOR CD. (I was
one of 10 winner
of ELEKTOR COMPETITION/97) :)))))))

Now, i'm developting a project for do Remote Experiments with PIC17C42!

See my page for what i already done for BASIC 52, FORTH 52 and Assembly 52!

If someone want a copy of Article, i can send!

Miguel Alexandre W.

1998\01\29@170111 by Andrew Mayo

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Well, essentially we're just using http as the protocol, which is just
simple ASCII, but of course an embedded Web server is expected to
support a range of communications protocols, and although simple RS-232
is one of them, and trivial to implement, what if you want to connect
this embedded Web server onto a LAN?. I think you need more smarts than
a PIC to handle the communications. If the PIC device needs a terminal
server to get data, it ain't much of an embedded device.

{Quote hidden}

1998\01\29@170518 by paulh

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On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Gary T. Pepper wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone has ever seen or developed an application where
> any PIC processor (I assume one of the higher performance devices) was used
> as the basis for an embedded web server?

See http://hogwild.hamjudo.com/cgi-bin/wave and
http://hogwild.hamjudo.com/cgi-bin/stamp

Both pages are sharing one basic stamp 1.  It's been running for a few
years.  There is a lot of code space left in the Stamp.

You don't need a high performance PIC for this, just about anything will
work.

--
paulhspamspam_OUThamjudo.com  http://www.hamjudo.com
The April 97 WebSight magazine describes me as "(presumably) normal".

1998\01\29@173323 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
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Gary T. Pepper <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone has ever seen or developed an application
> where any PIC processor (I assume one of the higher performance
> devices) was used as the basis for an embedded web server?

Gary:

Paul Haas (who -- hard as it may be to believe -- really IS pretty
normal) has done a PIC-based web-server with great success... Many
thousands of people have logged on to his refrigerator and hot tub,
and waved at his cat via their web browsers.

Paul's on the PICLIST; he'll undoubtedly reply personally.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - KILLspamfastfwdKILLspamspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1998\01\29@183945 by Ed Koffeman

picon face
>Paul Haas (who -- hard as it may be to believe -- really IS pretty
>normal) has done a PIC-based web-server with great success... Many

Isn't the actual server a Sun workstation, and the PICs just talk to the
serial port with raw data?

Ed Koffeman
Kinetra

1998\01\29@194612 by )

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face
Andy Warren wrote:


> Paul Haas (who -- hard as it may be to believe -- really IS pretty
> normal) has done a PIC-based web-server with great success... Many
> thousands of people have logged on to his refrigerator and hot tub,
> and waved at his cat via their web browsers.
>
> Paul's on the PICLIST; he'll undoubtedly reply personally.
>
Neat! But what's the address? I want to go take a look! I'm wondering if
this is this the site that at one time I stumbled across by accident
(and unfortunately didn't bookmark) called "Paul's Refrigerator"? At the
time (about 2 years ago) "Paul's Refrigerator" was listed as running on
a 386SX system with Linux. I was impressed then. On a PIC....incredible.

-Frank

1998\01\29@194834 by Gary T. Pepper

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At 05:44 PM 1/29/1998 -0600, you wrote:
>>Paul Haas (who -- hard as it may be to believe -- really IS pretty
>>normal) has done a PIC-based web-server with great success... Many
>
>Isn't the actual server a Sun workstation, and the PICs just talk to the
>serial port with raw data?
>
>Ed Koffeman
>Kinetra
>
>

Ed,

I'd say that you are correct!  I checked out Paul's WWW pages and it
indeed appears that the Sun workstation is the web-server and the PICs
just gather data.

Regards,
Gary Pepper

RemoveMEgpepperTakeThisOuTspamcapitalnet.com

1998\01\29@221727 by paulh

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On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Ed Koffeman wrote:

> >Paul Haas (who -- hard as it may be to believe -- really IS pretty
> >normal)

I try to hide it.

> > has done a PIC-based web-server with great success...

The hand and temperature on my desk use a Stamp 1, which has a PIC in it.

The hottub and refrigerator use 6811s (Shh, don't tell anyone, but the
refrigerator has been replaced, and I still haven't wired up the new one.
When I do, I'll use a PIC.  The hottub sensors are still mostly working
(The ozone from the ozone generator destroyed the light sensor, so the
system always thinks the ozone generator is broken.))

> Isn't the actual server a Sun workstation, and the PICs just talk to the
> serial port with raw data?

I replaced the Sun workstations a few years ago.  I've got a 386 and a
Pentium.  The Pentium handles a little over 10,000 hits per day.  The 386
has all the serial ports, so it actually talks to the embedded computers
on my desk and in the hottub.

My very first web server used to ignore the http request entirely and
always responded with current hottub statistics.  The software just
listened to TCP/IP port 80 on the Sun workstation.  It did what I
wanted it to do, back in the dark ages of 4 years ago.

If you make the assumption that the TCP/IP stack doesn't need to run on
the webserver, then it is easy to fit a webserver on a PIC. Parsing and
generating limited HTTP is very easy, the PIC can do enough to be usefull.

If you require that the entire TCP/IP stack be on the PIC for it to be a
real webserver, then things are very difficult.  If you just want your PIC
somehow serving information to the web and recieving information from the
web, then things are easy.

--
spamBeGonepaulhspamBeGonespamhamjudo.com  http://www.hamjudo.com
The April 97 WebSight magazine describes me as "(presumably) normal".

1998\01\30@095407 by John Hansen

picon face
At 10:59 AM 1/30/98 +1300, Andrew Mayo  wrote:
>Well, essentially we're just using http as the protocol, which is just
>simple ASCII, but of course an embedded Web server is expected to
>support a range of communications protocols, and although simple RS-232
>is one of them, and trivial to implement, what if you want to connect
>this embedded Web server onto a LAN?. I think you need more smarts than
>a PIC to handle the communications. If the PIC device needs a terminal
>server to get data, it ain't much of an embedded device.

Would the Motorola MC68160 with a MC68360 make the nut here?  This is what
the TAPR group is using as the ethernet interface for their spread spectrum
radio.  I have no idea what these chips cost, and the 68360 seems to be a
microprocessor itself, but if there was a two chip solution to this it
would make a very small embedded webserver.

I saw the article in the latest issue of Circuit Cellar, Inc, on this, but
I couldn't find any indication of how the communications were being
handled.  There was also a reference in that issue to a previous issue that
I don't have that discussed putting a tcp/ip stack in a PIC.  That article
might have had information on interfacing it.

John Hansen

1998\01\30@103042 by Martin R. Green

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All the articles I've seen in Circuit Cellar regarding embedded web
servers use embedded PC's, such as a PC/104 device, which is basically
a single board PC.  This makes the design much easier since actual PC
hardware and software can be adapted for the interface and TCP/IP
stack.  While it is not impossible, a PIC based embedded web server
would be significantly more effort.

CIAO - Martin.

On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:30:42 -0500, John Hansen <TakeThisOuThansenEraseMEspamspam_OUTFREDONIA.EDU>
wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarspamTakeThisOuTNOSPAMbigfoot.com

To reply, remove the NOSPAM from the return address.
Stamp out SPAM everywhere!!!

1998\01\30@112607 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 09:30 AM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The Motorola MC683xx series of chips are Communication Processors. They
basically consist of an MC68ECxxx core and a few communications
periphericals (such as serial ports, PCM highway controllers, and one model
has an ethernet interface), which, incidentally are not implemented in
hardware but are actually running on an internal RISC processor. The user
does not have access to the RISC processor's code memory (except by paying
motorola to burn your code in instead of theirs). As I understand it, they
are intended for just such embedded communications applications. At least
some of the chips in this series would have enough power to run a full
TCP/IP stack. Just remember, they are not like pics, they have a standard
68000 instruction set and require external ram and rom. I am not familiar
with the 68160, but I have written code for the 68302, the baseline model
of the 683xx series and I would be willing to answer questions via email if
anyone was considering starting a project based upon this chip.

Sean

+--------------------------------+
| Sean Breheny                   |
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM |
| Electrical Engineering Student |
+--------------------------------+
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
shb7EraseMEspam.....cornell.edu
Phone(USA): (607) 253-0315

1998\01\30@155923 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   Would the Motorola MC68160 with a MC68360 make the nut here?  This is what
   the TAPR group is using as the ethernet interface for their spread spectrum
   radio.  I have no idea what these chips cost, and the 68360 seems to be a
   microprocessor itself, but if there was a two chip solution to this it
   would make a very small embedded webserver.

Yes, certainly.  In fact, we (cisco) sell a micro web-server that has
either a MC68360 (QUICC) or PowerQUICC (PowerPC core with similar
peripherals) with SCSI controller and ZIP drive (100MB ethernet web
server, about the size of of an external 5.25inch disk drive.)  We have
several full-fledged IP routers (with tcp stack and (I think) HTML
stack) based on the QUICC (cisco1000 series, and I think cisco1500
series, and some more based on the powerQUICC.)

Of course, we sell these things for much more than the cost of parts. :-)

A bare 68000 or 68010 with external network controllers made up the bulk
of internet "boxes" until not so long ago...

BillW
cisco

1998\01\30@232503 by Han

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face
----------
> From: WF AUTOMACAO <EraseMEwfspamAMBIENTE.COM.BR>
> To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: PIC embedded Web Server????
> Date: Friday, January 30, 1998 10:53 AM
>
>
> In february 98, my article will be avaliable the article on ELEKTOR CD.
(I was
>  one of 10 winner
> of ELEKTOR COMPETITION/97) :)))))))
>
> Now, i'm developting a project for do Remote Experiments with PIC17C42!
>
> See my page for what i already done for BASIC 52, FORTH 52 and Assembly
52!
>
> If someone want a copy of Article, i can send!
>
> Miguel Alexandre W.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
-------------Can you send me the article ????
i bought elector magazine from inelco (electronic parts supplier)
but now when Indonesia Rupiah falldown,its cost seven times the price
before
and that's  too exspensive to me


Han

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------


'PIC embedded Web Server????'
1998\02\02@091200 by WF AUTOMACAO
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face
Han wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Did you receive very well?

Miguel.

1998\02\03@060920 by Marcos Migliorini

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face
I think your proyect is very intresting. Please could you send me a copy of
your article?

Mailto: EraseMEmarcosmspamspamspamBeGonesicoar.com.ar

----------
> De: WF AUTOMACAO <RemoveMEwfKILLspamspamAMBIENTE.COM.BR>
> A: PICLISTSTOPspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Asunto: PIC embedded Web Server????
> Fecha: viernes 30 de enero de 1998 0:53
>
> Gary T. Pepper wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone has ever seen or developed an application
where
> > any PIC processor (I assume one of the higher performance devices) was
used
> > as the basis for an embedded web server?  You might find this question
a
> > bit surprising, however, I have recently read an article about an
embedded
> > web server designed around an 8051 CPU (see Circuit Cellar Ink, pp
60-64,
> > volume #88, Nov 1997).  In this article, the remote-server software
> > "engine" is said to typically consume just over 1 kilobyte of ROM and
~30
> > bytes of RAM!  If this is true, why couldn't a high-end PIC processor
be
> > used in a similar application?
> >
> > BTW, the application in the above article was simply to turn a red and
> > green LED on and off and to vary the intensity of the LEDs, remotely
via
> > the WWW, of course.  The article does provide some interesting food for
> > thought, however, as to what could be done with a relatively cheap
embedded
> > web server!
> >
> > Any comments from any PIC gurus (or anybody else, for that matter) "out
> > there"?  I thought that this would be a terrific application for a PIC,
if
> > the right software "development tools" were available.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Gary Pepper
> >
> > e-mail: spamBeGonegpepperSTOPspamspamEraseMEcapitalnet.com
>
> I have developted something like, but using as Front End, the Delphi
accessing
>  the Winsock.dll.
>
> Not for WEB, but is the beginner!
>
> In february 98, my article will be avaliable the article on ELEKTOR CD.
(I was
>  one of 10 winner
> of ELEKTOR COMPETITION/97) :)))))))
>
> Now, i'm developting a project for do Remote Experiments with PIC17C42!
>
> See my page for what i already done for BASIC 52, FORTH 52 and Assembly
52!
>
> If someone want a copy of Article, i can send!
>
> Miguel Alexandre W.

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