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PICList Thread
'Low Cost PIC programmer'
2000\04\30@065040 by juggernut

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part 0 16 bytes
</x-html>

2000\04\30@091538 by Andy Kelley

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It also works for other pics...

Linux/Dos

http://home3.inet.tele.dk/frda/picasm/prog.html

Andy K.

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:53:12 -0700 juggernut <spam_OUTjuggernutTakeThisOuTspamCROSSWINDS.NET>
writes:
> Hi to all PICLISTER!
>
> Is there a site posted a low cost 16F87X programmer (Exclusive only
> for 16f87xx) for free? I'll be appreciated if you can help me..
>
> best regards;
> -=jug=-

________________________________________________________________
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2000\04\30@110733 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

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www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/wisp/index.html

For my experience I think a lot of 16c84/16f84 programmers will work with
an '877 (with obvious limitations like 1K code),
but you might need the R/C trick on the VP pin (RB3?).

----------
From: juggernut <.....juggernutKILLspamspam@spam@CROSSWINDS.NET>
To: PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Low Cost PIC programmer
Date: Monday, May 01, 2000 03:53

Hi to all PICLISTER!

Is there a site posted a low cost 16F87X programmer (Exclusive only for
16f87xx) for free? I'll be appreciated if you can help me..

best regards;
-=jug=-

2000\04\30@113501 by Byron A Jeff

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On Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:01:49PM +0200, w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman wrote:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/wisp/index.html
>
> For my experience I think a lot of 16c84/16f84 programmers will work with
> an '877 (with obvious limitations like 1K code),
> but you might need the R/C trick on the VP pin (RB3?).

Actually a couple caveats.

1) You'll need a different bit of software. The initialization/erasure
sequence is a bit different. Also the 16F87X parts use a 0x18 programming
code instead of 0x08. The EEPROM data programmer also requires a bit of
modification.

2) I haven't found the R/C trick necessary on the part. I simply pulled RB3
down with a pulldown resistor. It works fine.

3) Since the part can self program, looking at a serial self programmer
is probably your best bet.

Wouter,

I just took another look at the wisp. First off would the wloader be a
better target for this particular application?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/wloader/index.html

The wisp is targeted for the F84's, not the F87X's right?

Also as another alternative to the resistor RS232 and the MAX232 interface
I'd like to throw out the DS275 from Dallas Semiconductor. It's a power
stealing 8 pin dip that will give pseudo RS232 voltages. Comes in an 8
pin DIP and requires no external components.

BAJ

2000\04\30@123941 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

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> 1) You'll need a different bit of software. The initialization/erasure
> sequence is a bit different. Also the 16F87X parts use a 0x18 programming
> code instead of 0x08. The EEPROM data programmer also requires a bit of
> modification.

Hmmm. WISP uses the 16x84 programming commands and I used it to develop
WLoader! Am I dreaming? I tried to find the programming commands for the
'8ff but I could not find 'm in the '877 datasheet, nor in the ICSP guide.
Where should I look?

> 2) I haven't found the R/C trick necessary on the part. I simply pulled
RB3
> down with a pulldown resistor. It works fine.

Worked fine for me too without connected anything to RB3, but others have
reported problems so beware.

> 3) Since the part can self program, looking at a serial self programmer
> is probably your best bet.

That would be my choice, but one still has to get the self programming code
into the '877. And the guy asked for a programmer, not for a self-loader.

> The wisp is targeted for the F84's, not the F87X's right?

right, but unaware of the differences I just used it on my '877's....

> Also as another alternative to the resistor RS232 and the MAX232
interface
> I'd like to throw out the DS275 from Dallas Semiconductor. It's a power
> stealing 8 pin dip that will give pseudo RS232 voltages. Comes in an 8
> pin DIP and requires no external components.

price, availability?

regards,
Wouter

2000\04\30@231315 by Byron A Jeff

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On Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 06:33:45PM +0200, w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman wrote:
> > 1) You'll need a different bit of software. The initialization/erasure
> > sequence is a bit different. Also the 16F87X parts use a 0x18 programming
> > code instead of 0x08. The EEPROM data programmer also requires a bit of
> > modification.
>
> Hmmm. WISP uses the 16x84 programming commands and I used it to develop
> WLoader! Am I dreaming? I tried to find the programming commands for the
> '8ff but I could not find 'm in the '877 datasheet, nor in the ICSP guide.
> Where should I look?

In the 16F8XX programming specifications. Can be downloaded from uChip here:

http://www.microchip.com/10/Lit/Specs/39025d/index.htm

The 0x08 code does an erase and program and is supposed to require a 20 ms
delay. Also when we tried the sequence in Brian Lane's picprg 2.2 that
properly programs the 16F84, we had no joy with the 16F87X parts. Here's
the original sequence:
-----------------------------------------------------
/* Erase chip/Disable code protect from MicroChip 2.2.2       */
 send_cmnd( 0x00 );                    /* Load Configuration   */
 waitus( 1 );
 send_data( 0x3FFF );                  /* Clear Configuration  */
 waitus( 1 );

 for ( x = 0; x < 7; x++ )
 {
   send_cmnd( 0x06 );                  /* Increment PC         */
   waitus( 1 );
 }

 send_cmnd( 0x01 );                    /* ??                   */
 waitus( 1 );
 send_cmnd( 0x07 );                    /* ??                   */
 waitus( 1 );
 send_cmnd( 0x08 );                    /* Begin programming    */
 waitus( 10000 );                      /* Wait 10mS            */
 send_cmnd( 0x01 );
 waitus( 1 );
 send_cmnd( 0x07 );
 waitus( 1 );
------------------------------------------------------------------
When we changed it to the sequence listed in the Programming specification:
1. Do a "Load Data All 1's" command. (0x00 0x3FFF)
2. Do a "Bulk Erase User Memory" command. (0x09)
3. Do a "Begin Programming" command. (0x18)
4. Wait 10 ms to complete bulk erase. (waitus(10000))

Note that neither myself nor Brian Lane have a clear understanding of the
0x01 or 0x07 commands listed in his code. It's not in the programming spec.


>
> > 2) I haven't found the R/C trick necessary on the part. I simply pulled
> RB3
> > down with a pulldown resistor. It works fine.
>
> Worked fine for me too without connected anything to RB3, but others have
> reported problems so beware.

Since it's a CMOS input I'd be very leery of leaving it unconnected. But
just setting it inactive seems to work just fine.

>
> > 3) Since the part can self program, looking at a serial self programmer
> > is probably your best bet.
>
> That would be my choice, but one still has to get the self programming code
> into the '877. And the guy asked for a programmer, not for a self-loader.

True. But it's clear that juggernut is a novice just by the questions that
he's asking. As such he may not be aware of the possibilities.

As for the initial program I'm nearly certain that a LVP 16F87X programmer
connected to the parallel port can be constructed using just a cable, a
resistor and a switch, needing only a 5V supply which can easily be stolen
from the keyboard, PS/2, or joystick ports on the PC. I'll gladly supply
a working Linux copy of picprg 2.2 to anyone who constructs such a cable.
More details can be found in my posting last month on the subject. Here's
the URL: http://www.infosite.com/%7Ejkeyzer/piclist/2000/Mar/2126.html

So build the on-off cable to burn the loader (turning off LVP in the process
so that RB3 can be reclaimed), then attach a MAX232 or DS275 to the serial
port and use Wloader or ROMZap to program the part from then on.

{Quote hidden}

A bit pricy: $3 US. Available directly from http://www.dalsemi.com through their
credit card order line.

BAJ

>
> regards,
> Wouter


'Low Cost PIC programmer'
2000\05\01@095542 by Jim Robertson
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At 11:33 AM 4/30/00 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:01:49PM +0200, w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman wrote:
>> www.xs4all.nl/~wf/wouter/pic/wisp/index.html
>>
>> For my experience I think a lot of 16c84/16f84 programmers will work with
>> an '877 (with obvious limitations like 1K code),
>> but you might need the R/C trick on the VP pin (RB3?).
>
>Actually a couple caveats.
>
>1) You'll need a different bit of software. The initialization/erasure
>sequence is a bit different. Also the 16F87X parts use a 0x18 programming
>code instead of 0x08. The EEPROM data programmer also requires a bit of
>modification.

Wouter and Byron,

My $0.02 worth...

The picstart plus, and my own programmers happy program the 16F87x parts
with EXACTLY the same commands and timing as for the 16F84. That seems to
be the bottom line. The microchip documentation is all over the place
when it comes to the 16Fxxx parts. Programming time is variously given as
2mS,
5mS and 10mS depending on which document and what part you are reading.

Experimentally I have alter the picstart plus to a 5mS program/erase cycle
(0x08 command) and it worked 100% This does suggest the program time is more
like 2mS than 5 or 10.

Regardless of the conflicts in the programming specs (30925B, 30262C) it
remains that 16F87x parts do program with the same commands and timings
as for 16C/F84s and there are no shortage of examples of this.

>2) I haven't found the R/C trick necessary on the part. I simply pulled RB3
>down with a pulldown resistor. It works fine.

Right, you only need it if the pin is used for VDD on other pics like the
18-pinners. If you are not using the same socket for other parts then there
is no problem.


Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
________________________________________
Email: .....newfoundKILLspamspam.....pipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.
________________________________________

2000\05\01@131935 by w. v. ooijen / f. hanneman

picon face
> Regardless of the conflicts in the programming specs (30925B, 30262C) it
> remains that 16F87x parts do program with the same commands and timings
> as for 16C/F84s and there are no shortage of examples of this.

Which agrees with my experiences.
BTW the delay in WISP is 10 ms.
Maybe the uChip guy that monitors the list can comment?

Wouter

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