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PICList Thread
'In Circuit Serial Programming'
1996\03\21@065734 by Dermot

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On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Newfound Electronics wrote:

> At no stage should there be Vpp applied without Vdd. It is the presence of
> Vdd that stops Vpp appearing on the Vdd pin. I would be VERY concerned if
> any programmer applied Vpp without Vdd.

Hi Jim,

I think we may be at cross purposes here. The original inquiry (as I
understood it) was about a circuit that had Vpp hard-wired to Vdd,
presumably to hold MCLR* high in normal operation. Thus the Vpp voltage
level would appear on the Vdd line. However even with a large value
resistance between Vpp/MCLR* and Vdd, the programming voltage can still
appear on Vdd.

>
> Regarding ESD. While the programmer may hold Vpp at ground, what about when
> it is not connected? This is when ESD "scrambling" can occur. I know it less
> likely if the usual preventative measures are taken, BUT I know it has
> happened and it appears to happen at ESD levels that ordinarily wouldn't
> harm the rest of the componentry. IMHO the resistor method has no drawbacks
> and does serve to prevent such occurences. I can see only positives for it
> myself. However, many people do use the diode without to many problems.

Obviously if the resistor alone works well, it's a matter of choice, but
personally, I would be very wary of not using a diode/resistor combination,
with perhaps a
higher value resistor to Vss for additional ESD discharge purposes.

>
> BTW  The "victim" in the case I know of had to reprogram 100 16C84 based
> boards again. Ouch!

Yes :-)

Regards,

_________________________________________________________________________
 __     __   ___             __   ____  <>  Electrical Engineering Dept.
/  \   /_   /__/  /\  /\    /  /   /    <>    University of Bradford
/___/  /__  /  \  /  \/  \  /__/   /     <>            England

1996\03\21@094325 by Newfound Electronics

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>On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Newfound Electronics wrote:
>
>> At no stage should there be Vpp applied without Vdd. It is the presence of
>> Vdd that stops Vpp appearing on the Vdd pin. I would be VERY concerned if
>> any programmer applied Vpp without Vdd.
>
>Hi Jim,
>
>I think we may be at cross purposes here. The original inquiry (as I
>understood it) was about a circuit that had Vpp hard-wired to Vdd,

Dermot,

Yes, that WAS the case but had been dealt with before we came to the diode V
resistor bit. It had to be otherwise ISP is not possible.

>presumably to hold MCLR* high in normal operation. Thus the Vpp voltage
>level would appear on the Vdd line. However even with a large value
>resistance between Vpp/MCLR* and Vdd, the programming voltage can still
>appear on Vdd.

I don't know what you mean Dermot. To my understanding we have a low
impedence source controling Vdd and a high impedence source from Vpp/MCLR.
The voltage difference is dropped across the resistor. What could I be
missing? At worst Vpp contributes a little extra current, Right??

{Quote hidden}

I guess it is a matter of choice and just as you are wary, I too, am wary of
the diode. For 16C84 systems I tend to leave it out.

In the case I am refering to, the victim subjected his PCBs to a finishing
proceedure. Before he discovered my programmer he use to program within the
programmer and tranfer the chips. When he got my programmer with the ISP
option he modified his circuit and added the diode (I told him to). When he
used the same finishing proceedure this is when the 16C84 scrambled. (And I
coped an ear full!)

He is now using just a resistor with no further problems.

So maybe under normal circumstances, the diode is ok. But in my view the
resistor is safe and eliminates the possibility.

BTW. The ESD problem with the 16C84 occurs because it requires so little
current to enter the program mode. It doesn't tend to happen on the EPROM
based PICs which require more oumph (did I spell that right?) on the Vpp pin.

>
Regards,

Jim

1996\03\22@082618 by Dermot

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On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Newfound Electronics wrote:

> I don't know what you mean Dermot. To my understanding we have a low
> impedence source controling Vdd and a high impedence source from Vpp/MCLR.
> The voltage difference is dropped across the resistor. What could I be
> missing? At worst Vpp contributes a little extra current, Right??

Hi Jim,

Yes, It's my logic that's a little fuzzy. I'm thinking in terms of the
circuit I'm currently working on where the programming voltage is derived
from a different source to the PIC Vdd supply line which itself contains a
blocking diode. Your description relates to the PIC deriving Vpp and Vdd
from the programmer, clearly a better arrangement.

I'll bear this, and the potential 16C84 ESD problem, in mind in any future
designs.

Regards,
_________________________________________________________________________
 __     __   ___             __   ____  <>  Electrical Engineering Dept.
/  \   /_   /__/  /\  /\    /  /   /    <>    University of Bradford
/___/  /__  /  \  /  \/  \  /__/   /     <>            England


'In Circuit Serial Programming'
1999\01\26@145546 by Jack Shidemantle
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I need to perform in circuit serial programming on 12C509's. Does
anyone know if the Pro Mate programmer has the ability to do this if
I bring the appropriate lines out? If not the Pro Mate is there any
other unit out there that can do this?

Thanks in advance

Jack Shidemantle
Automation & Development Engineer
YSI, Inc. USA

1999\01\26@153446 by Steven Kosmerchock

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Jack,

you wrote:
>I need to perform in circuit serial programming on 12C509's. Does
>anyone know if the Pro Mate programmer has the ability to do this if
>I bring the appropriate lines out? If not the Pro Mate is there any
>other unit out there that can do this?


As far as I know, what you are thinking "should" work just fine. I beleive you m
ay even beable to buy an ICSP header from MICROCHIP. I would suggest looking int
o document # DS30277B ("In-Circuit Serial Programming Guide" from Microchip). yo
u should beable to download it from their website. Otherwise, try http://www.propic2.co
m   They have a small ICSP programmer that seems to be very nice!! Hope this hel
ps.

Best regards,
Steven

*********************************************************
Steven Kosmerchock
Engineering Technician/Student
CELWAVE
Phoenix   Arizona   USA
Email:  spam_OUTsteve.kosmerchockTakeThisOuTspamcelwave.com
www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/6584
**********************************************************



>Thanks in advance

>Jack Shidemantle
>Automation & Development Engineer
>YSI, Inc. USA

1999\01\26@164907 by andre

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Jack,

I use promate 2 with AC004004 module . it will program all ICSP pics.
I paid  350$ and I liked it very much.

Andre Abelian

Jack Shidemantle wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\01\29@173000 by Octavio Nogueira

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ProPic 2 ICSP can do in-circuit programming.

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.....nogueiraKILLspamspam@spam@propic2.com                  ICQ# 19841898
>From the creator of ProPic,ProPic 2 now much better
New ProPic 2  homepage:      http://www.propic2.com
PIC Programmer for Windows with down to earth price
===================================================
-----Mensagem original-----
De: Jack Shidemantle <JshidemantlespamKILLspamYSI.COM>
Para: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Data: Terça-feira, Janeiro 26, 1999 05:54
Assunto: In Circuit Serial Programming


I need to perform in circuit serial programming on 12C509's. Does
anyone know if the Pro Mate programmer has the ability to do this if
I bring the appropriate lines out? If not the Pro Mate is there any
other unit out there that can do this?

Thanks in advance

Jack Shidemantle
Automation & Development Engineer
YSI, Inc. USA


'In Circuit Serial Programming'
1999\03\25@084322 by Jack Shidemantle
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I'm trying to do ICSP and having only a small measure of success. I
would like to verify some basic assumptions. When a part is
programmed Vdd is to be the nominal (5V in this case) voltage, is
that correct? It then verifys at Vdd min and max. Is this assumption
correct?
Also can you make an adapter that plugs into the ZIF socket of a
standard programmer and use it for ICSP? I guess what I'm saying here
is, does a standard programmer program a 12C509 the same way as
a "ICSP" programmer would.
The sample circuit in Microchips "ICSP" programming guide makes
comments about circuit loading. I have a circuit which draws about 5
ma total. Is this considered high circuit loading?
I'm using 4.7k isolation resistors for the appropriate programming
pins since they are also used in the circuit.

Thanks for any comments, I realize this may not tell you much.
Jack Shidemantle
Automation & Development Engineer
YSI, Inc.
Yellow Springs, Ohio

1999\03\25@150708 by chuck

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Jack,
Any PIC capable of ICSP can be programmed with 5 connections.
5V, Vpp to MCLR, Data on RB7, Clock on RB6 and Gnd.

Yes you can jumper from a PIC programmer socket to a PIC. Programmers
like the EPIC have an expansion connector for doing what you describe.

P.S.
I guess the LCD module didn't work for you.

--- Jack Shidemantle <Jshidemantlespamspam_OUTYSI.COM> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

===
Chuck Hellebuyck
Electronic Products
@spam@chuckKILLspamspamelproducts.com
*****Program PICs in BASIC Special!*********
Complete 16F84 package for only $115.95
Includes: Compiler, EPIC Programmer, 16F84 PIC, Cable & Batteries
http://www.elproducts.com
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