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PICList Thread
'I wish for ---, listen up Microchip!'
1998\05\13@005915 by Chris Eddy

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So my gears turned. <squeak>.  If we all cry out in unison, maybe we can get
Microchip to partner with AD to get a good analog peripheral on their parts.
MOST of the time, I couple a PIC with a 12 bit ADC.  Time and time again, 8 bits
is just not enough.  I have a sinking feeling that Microchip knows that it is a
steep learning curve, and they just put it off for another day.

I know I would like the better ADC on the PIC, but I would like to know what all
of you think.  I would like to know who thinks it is a great idea, and who
thinks it is rubish.  And maybe Darrel from Microchip can pass along the idea to
development engineering at Microchip (hint, hint).

Chris Eddy, PE
Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.


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1998\05\13@010756 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 12:56 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I went to an Analog Devices seminar today.  Toward the end of the skit, they
>showed a couple of slides of an 8051 based processor design coupled with a 12
>bit ADC and a 12 bit DAC, with other stuff.  Seems a third party really
wanted
>this stuff, and most processor fabricators cannot do a very good job on
analog.
>Thus, most processors never go over 10 bits internal.  I quizzed the fellow
>about this defacto limitation, and he said, 'We're analog devices.  Of
course we
>got the analog right.  It is tested.".
>
>So my gears turned. <squeak>.  If we all cry out in unison, maybe we can get
>Microchip to partner with AD to get a good analog peripheral on their parts.
>MOST of the time, I couple a PIC with a 12 bit ADC.  Time and time again,
8 bits
>is just not enough.  I have a sinking feeling that Microchip knows that it
is a
>steep learning curve, and they just put it off for another day.
>
>I know I would like the better ADC on the PIC, but I would like to know
what all
>of you think.  I would like to know who thinks it is a great idea, and who
>thinks it is rubish.  And maybe Darrel from Microchip can pass along the
idea to
>development engineering at Microchip (hint, hint).
>
>Chris Eddy, PE
>Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.
>

Chris,

Overall, I agree strongly with you. However, doesn't the 14000 have a 12 or
14 bit ADC(I can't remember)? PICs are good for measuring circuits
(voltmeters, scales, colorimeters, etc.) and these all need the extra
precision. (Microchip should indeed take a hint)

Sean

+--------------------------------+
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1998\05\13@033352 by Steve Baldwin

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> I went to an Analog Devices seminar today.  Toward the end of the skit, they
> showed a couple of slides of an 8051 based processor design coupled with a 12
> bit ADC and a 12 bit DAC, with other stuff.

It would be interesting to see the other parts of the spec. Are all
12 bits useful ?

> I know I would like the better ADC on the PIC, but I would like to know what a
ll
> of you think.

It depends on how long you are prepared to wait for the result. The
PIC14000 is pretty good but takes a while, as does any integrating
type.
I haven't given it too much thought, but in reality 8 bits is enough
a lot of the time. The other bits get chewed up in applying gain and
offset in software. Maybe a mixture of say, a 10 bit ADC and an amp
with a couple of digital pots integrated internally.

Putting anything analog on the same slab o' glass as a micro isn't
giving it a nice start in life. I bet you want the same core to run
at 30MHz too. :-)

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: .....stevebKILLspamspam@spam@tla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1998\05\13@083232 by Andy Kunz

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<snip>
>Seems a third party really wanted this stuff, and most processor fabricators
>cannot do a very good job on analog.
<snip>
>So my gears turned. <squeak>.  If we all cry out in unison, maybe we can get
>Microchip to partner with AD to get a good analog peripheral on their parts.

Chris,

In another life I've dealt with Microchip engineering.  THey're great
people.  Unfortunately their hands are tied by Marketing.

Dealt with them, too.  When we told them we wanted 100K pieces per year of
the 14-bit core in an 8-pin part with internal USART (the fixed one <G>)
and EEPROM, they seemed to listen.  In the meantime, we coded it to fit in
a '558.  Oh, and we'll still buy 100K parts, but much cheaper.

Andy

==================================================================
                    Andy Kunz - Montana Design
         Go fast, turn right, and keep the wet side down!
==================================================================

1998\05\13@085618 by wwl

picon face
On Wed, 13 May 1998 00:56:48 -0400, you wrote:
>
>So my gears turned. <squeak>.  If we all cry out in unison, maybe we can get
>Microchip to partner with AD to get a good analog peripheral on their parts.
>MOST of the time, I couple a PIC with a 12 bit ADC.  Time and time again, 8 bits
>is just not enough.  I have a sinking feeling that Microchip knows that it is a
>steep learning curve, and they just put it off for another day.

It all depends on the type of applications - I've only ever *needed*
more than 8 bits on one project. Microchip make their money on
high-volume products, and I doubt there are enough volume applications
that really need 12 bit accuracy.  For volume applications, it is
often cheaper to use 8 bits, with avaraging or external trimming ( to
use the full converter span) to get a result that is 'good enough'.
The test cost & noise problems of integrating a 12 bit A/D would add a
lot to the chip cost. At least MCT parts give 8 *good* bits, unlike
some A/Ds, and they are looking at going to 10 bits on future parts.


    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / wwlspamKILLspamnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\05\13@092524 by Steven Kosmerchock

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face
Personally I like the idea!! Afterall if they want the best possilble product th
ey need to put pride aside and get with the new technology. If AD and Microchip
did get together I imagine the other mC's would be shaking in their socket pins.

---- PICLIST(a)MITVMA.MIT.EDU's Message ----

I went to an Analog Devices seminar today.  Toward the end of the skit, they
showed a couple of slides of an 8051 based processor design coupled with a 12
bit ADC and a 12 bit DAC, with other stuff.  Seems a third party really wanted
this stuff, and most processor fabricators cannot do a very good job on analog.
Thus, most processors never go over 10 bits internal.  I quizzed the fellow
about this defacto limitation, and he said, 'We're analog devices.  Of course we
got the analog right.  It is tested.".

So my gears turned. <squeak>.  If we all cry out in unison, maybe we can get
Microchip to partner with AD to get a good analog peripheral on their parts.
MOST of the time, I couple a PIC with a 12 bit ADC.  Time and time again, 8 bits
is just not enough.  I have a sinking feeling that Microchip knows that it is a
steep learning curve, and they just put it off for another day.

I know I would like the better ADC on the PIC, but I would like to know what all
of you think.  I would like to know who thinks it is a great idea, and who
thinks it is rubish.  And maybe Darrel from Microchip can pass along the idea to
development engineering at Microchip (hint, hint).

Chris Eddy, PE
Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.

1998\05\13@101207 by Harrison Cooper

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face
               Maybe Burr-Brown might....since they are pretty close
(Tucson vs Mesa) ? just thinkin outloud

                               ----------

1998\05\13@110849 by Scott A. Woods

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face
I was just at the annual Microchip seminar.  They did so well on the A/Ds in the
ir new
products that what was going to be 10 bit is coming out as 12 bit...  the 16C774
/773 are
12 bit...

> From: Steven Kosmerchock <.....Steve.KosmerchockKILLspamspam.....CELWAVE.COM>
> Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 8:16 AM
>
> Personally I like the idea!! Afterall if they want the best possilble product
they need
to put pride aside and get with the new technology. If AD and Microchip did get
together
I imagine the other mC's would be shaking in their socket pins.
>
> ---- PICLIST(a)MITVMA.MIT.EDU's Message ----
>
> I went to an Analog Devices seminar today.  Toward the end of the skit, they
> showed a couple of slides of an 8051 based processor design coupled with a 12
> bit ADC and a 12 bit DAC, with other stuff.  Seems a third party really wanted
> this stuff, and most processor fabricators cannot do a very good job on analog
.
> Thus, most processors never go over 10 bits internal.  I quizzed the fellow
> about this defacto limitation, and he said, 'We're analog devices.  Of course
we
> got the analog right.  It is tested.".

1998\05\13@143020 by Alan King

picon face
Hey while they're at it, slaving one of the ports to a spare lpt port
in the simulator would be a nice idea.  Even without hooking it into the
circuit and using it as a slow ICE, just putting something real (like
different colored LEDs) out there would make things easier to follow.


Steven Kosmerchock wrote:
>
> This is great! See, we're discussing the fact that Microchip should have a bet
ter ADC and while we're discussing it Microchip is doing it! That's why I chose
PIC's. Microchip tries to stay ahead of the game.

1998\05\13@145222 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Alan King <EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Hey while they're at it, slaving one of the ports to a spare lpt
> port in the simulator would be a nice idea.  Even without hooking it
> into the circuit and using it as a slow ICE, just putting something
> real (like different colored LEDs) out there would make things
> easier to follow.

   Already done, Alan... See Microchip's $99 SIM-ICE.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - fastfwdspamspam_OUTix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499 (personal)
=== http://www.netcom.com/~fastfwd (business)

1998\05\13@174216 by Steve Baldwin

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face
> In another life I've dealt with Microchip engineering.  THey're great
> people.  Unfortunately their hands are tied by Marketing.

That describes all engineers in any company.
:-)

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: @spam@stevebKILLspamspamtla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1998\05\13@215617 by Chris Eddy

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Sean Breheny wrote:

> Overall, I agree strongly with you. However, doesn't the 14000 have a 12 or
> 14 bit ADC(I can't remember)? PICs are good for measuring circuits
> (voltmeters, scales, colorimeters, etc.) and these all need the extra
> precision. (Microchip should indeed take a hint)
>

I partly agree on the 14000, but the integrator is a real pig to supervise.  You
must baby sit many of the steps.  My own 14000 experience is only at 8 bit
resolution (marketing driven processor choice).  But I have heard that high
resolutions are a strong challenge, both from board layout and also the math tha
t
you must go through to compensate.  Ugh.  It just is not what I wanted.

But it looks like Sean Woods saved the day on his revelation that there are two
new parts running 12 bit resolution.  It looks like this thread is a year too
late.  The end of the wait may be upon us.

Chris Eddy, PE
Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.

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1998\05\13@221412 by Hans Blichfeldt

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Yes - let everybody push them guys - and also, it would be a great help
if a 32kHz crystal could be build in so basic timing could be made easy and
at lowest possible power - something like the Texas Instruments DSP'S

Hans


At 12:56 AM 13/05/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I went to an Analog Devices seminar today.  Toward the end of the skit, they
>showed a couple of slides of an 8051 based processor design coupled with a 12
>bit ADC and a 12 bit DAC, with other stuff.  Seems a third party really wanted
>this stuff, and most processor fabricators cannot do a very good job on analog.
>Thus, most processors never go over 10 bits internal.  I quizzed the fellow
>about this defacto limitation, and he said, 'We're analog devices.  Of
course we
>got the analog right.  It is tested.".
>
>So my gears turned. <squeak>.  If we all cry out in unison, maybe we can get
>Microchip to partner with AD to get a good analog peripheral on their parts.
>MOST of the time, I couple a PIC with a 12 bit ADC.  Time and time again, 8
bits
>is just not enough.  I have a sinking feeling that Microchip knows that it is a
>steep learning curve, and they just put it off for another day.
>
>I know I would like the better ADC on the PIC, but I would like to know
what all
>of you think.  I would like to know who thinks it is a great idea, and who
>thinks it is rubish.  And maybe Darrel from Microchip can pass along the
idea to
{Quote hidden}

--
Temperature Technology
263 Gilbert Street
ADELAIDE  SA  5000

web page:       http://dove.net.au/~ttec
email:          KILLspamttecKILLspamspamdove.net.au

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1998\05\14@014551 by David Lions

picon face
1. What about a 'battery-backup' pin, so you could keep the file
registers alive while the rest of the device was powered off.

2. In addition to this what about a real-time clock, that could also run
while the rest of the chip is off, using two pins for a crystal.

3. If no battery-backup pin, how about more chips with on-board data
EEPROM? It's so useful, how hard is it to put it on all chips?

4. How about just making a standard 14bit core, with full program
memory, full RAM, 8 UARTS, 8 PWM, 16kB data EEPROM...etc.  The core
could be placed in any package with any pin count.  The connection of
I/O to individuals pins would be by multiplexer bits set during
programming.  The common core would be mass produced, all that needs to
be specified is the pin count and package type.  A similar thing would
happen for 12 bit cores, and so on...

This would allow for such wonderful concepts as 3 UARTS on a 12C508 (8
pin) package.  Why should a 40 pin device have a UART but not an 8 pin?
How is pin count related to the features available?

5. A few more MHz on the clock.

1998\05\14@070106 by wwl

picon face
On Thu, 14 May 1998 15:51:05 +1000, you wrote:

>1. What about a 'battery-backup' pin, so you could keep the file
>registers alive while the rest of the device was powered off.
You can already do this with sleep mode
>2. In addition to this what about a real-time clock, that could also run
>while the rest of the chip is off, using two pins for a crystal.
The 74 and others can already pretty much do this with the timer
oscillator option
>3. If no battery-backup pin, how about more chips with on-board data
>EEPROM? It's so useful, how hard is it to put it on all chips?
Probably difficult on OTPs. but not on flash based chips, which we
could certainly do with more of!
>4. How about just making a standard 14bit core, with full program
>memory, full RAM, 8 UARTS, 8 PWM, 16kB data EEPROM...etc.  The core
>could be placed in any package with any pin count.  The connection of
>I/O to individuals pins would be by multiplexer bits set during
>programming.  The common core would be mass produced, all that needs to
>be specified is the pin count and package type.  
>A similar thing would
>happen for 12 bit cores, and so on...
>This would allow for such wonderful concepts as 3 UARTS on a 12C508 (8
>pin) package.  
You could implement 3 uarts in software reasonably easily if speed
isn't too critical, although interrupts would help.
Doing an all-in-one die would cost too much - chip cost is dominated
by die size and test cost, both of which would be high with a complex
chip. The cost of making chips doesn't reduce much with volume once
you get over a few wafers.
>Why should a 40 pin device have a UART but not an 8 pin?
The die wouldn't fit in the package!. I'm told this was the reason for
tyhe 12C508's biggest flaw - its lack of a brownout detector.
>How is pin count related to the features available?
It isn't directly, but if you look at a range of applications, you
tend to find that most  complex apps need more peripherals AND more
pins - remember Microchip determines what to make by what people want
to buy. The fact that MCT make so many different PICs illustrates that
it must be economic to do different die for even slightly different
feature sets  
>5. A few more MHz on the clock.
That's always been the case with every CPU, and will probably never
change!
    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / RemoveMEwwlTakeThisOuTspamnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\05\14@073529 by tjaart

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Mike Harrison wrote:

> >Why should a 40 pin device have a UART but not an 8 pin?
> The die wouldn't fit in the package!. I'm told this was the reason for
> tyhe 12C508's biggest flaw - its lack of a brownout detector.
> >How is pin count related to the features available?
> It isn't directly, but if you look at a range of applications, you
> tend to find that most  complex apps need more peripherals AND more
> pins - remember Microchip determines what to make by what people want
> to buy. The fact that MCT make so many different PICs illustrates that
> it must be economic to do different die for even slightly different
> feature sets
> >5. A few more MHz on the clock.
> That's always been the case with every CPU, and will probably never
> change!

A small programmable logic section would be very nice.
With a few independent gates you could do very powerfull stuff,
and you won't have to use program space, valuable interrupt
resources, or external pins.

I think it is daydreaming though. Just look how far we are with
those flash parts...

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spamBeGonetjaartspamBeGonespamwasp.co.za

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1998\05\14@081509 by g.daniel.invent.design

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David Lions wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Check out Motorola's new generation "coldfire" with PLA type stuff on
board ! , this is THE next logical step.

Regards,
Graham Daniel.

1998\05\14@083522 by Kolesnikoff, Paul

flavicon
face
If Microchip were to get together with another company, I would PIC
MAXIM. I love MAXIM's customer support and samples. In addition, I
recently had an experience with an AD device that I tried to interface
to for several days. Finally, in frustration, I ordered a MAX186 from
Digikey and had it working flawlessly in a matter of hours.

My two cents,
Paul Kolesnikoff

PS. Give the jobs/spelling/teachers thread a rest!


Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 06:16:42 -0700
From:    Steven Kosmerchock <RemoveMESteve.KosmerchockspamTakeThisOuTCELWAVE.COM>
Subject: Re: I wish for ---, listen up Microchip!

Personally I like the idea!! Afterall if they want the best possilble
product they need to put pride aside and get with the new technology. If
AD and Microchip did get together I imagine the other mC's would be
shaking in their socket pins.

---- PICLIST(a)MITVMA.MIT.EDU's Message ----

I went to an Analog Devices seminar today.  Toward the end of the skit,
they
showed a couple of slides of an 8051 based processor design coupled with
a 12
bit ADC and a 12 bit DAC, with other stuff.  Seems a third party really
wanted
this stuff, and most processor fabricators cannot do a very good job on
analog.
Thus, most processors never go over 10 bits internal.  I quizzed the
fellow
about this defacto limitation, and he said, 'We're analog devices.  Of
course we
got the analog right.  It is tested.".

So my gears turned. <squeak>.  If we all cry out in unison, maybe we can
get
Microchip to partner with AD to get a good analog peripheral on their
parts.
MOST of the time, I couple a PIC with a 12 bit ADC.  Time and time
again, 8 bits
is just not enough.  I have a sinking feeling that Microchip knows that
it is a
steep learning curve, and they just put it off for another day.

I know I would like the better ADC on the PIC, but I would like to know
what all
of you think.  I would like to know who thinks it is a great idea, and
who
thinks it is rubish.  And maybe Darrel from Microchip can pass along the
idea to
development engineering at Microchip (hint, hint).

Chris Eddy, PE
Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.

1998\05\14@123803 by Craig Webb

flavicon
face
Chris & Microchip,

I would really like to see a 12-bit internal ADC in a PIC too, and I don't
see why it couldn't be done. The 17C75x series has 12 x 10-bit ADC's (one 10
bit ADC with 1 of 12 multiplexor, I imagine), but I would like to see this
as 16 x 12-bit, even if certain noise requirements about supply voltage and
such need to be taken into account.

C. Webb

At 12:56 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I know I would like the better ADC on the PIC, but I would like to know
what all
>of you think.  I would like to know who thinks it is a great idea, and who
>thinks it is rubish.  And maybe Darrel from Microchip can pass along the
idea to
>development engineering at Microchip (hint, hint).
>
>Chris Eddy, PE
>Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.

1998\05\14@133743 by Craig Webb

flavicon
face
At 06:34 AM 5/14/98 -0600, you wrote:
>If Microchip were to get together with another company, I would PIC
>MAXIM. I love MAXIM's customer support and samples. In addition, I
>recently had an experience with an AD device that I tried to interface
>to for several days. Finally, in frustration, I ordered a MAX186 from
>Digikey and had it working flawlessly in a matter of hours.

I love their sampling policy too, and speed of sample delivery. However,
their lead times (take note!) for ordering have been pretty horrendous (17
weeks on one part, 12 weeks on another). So as long as the partnership
includes Microchip's lead times...

C. Webb

1998\05\14@140025 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
David Lions <PICLISTEraseMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> 1. What about a 'battery-backup' pin, so you could keep the file
> registers alive while the rest of the device was powered off.

   David:

   PICs already have that pin... It's called Vdd.  In SLEEP mode,
   the PIC's oscillator is stopped and it draws only enough current
   to keep the RAM alive.

> 2. In addition to this what about a real-time clock, that could
> also run while the rest of the chip is off, using two pins for a
> crystal.

   Many of the 16Cxx devices have this already... Look at the
   16C65's "Timer 1" documentation for details.

> 3. If no battery-backup pin, how about more chips with on-board data
> EEPROM? It's so useful, how hard is it to put it on all chips?

   Microchip is planing more devices with built-in data EEPROM...
   Details are in their "Roadmap to Future Products" document.

> 4. How about just making a standard 14bit core, with full program
> memory, full RAM, 8 UARTS, 8 PWM, 16kB data EEPROM...etc.  The core
> could be placed in any package with any pin count.  The connection
> of I/O to individuals pins would be by multiplexer bits set during
> programming.  The common core would be mass produced, all that needs
> to be specified is the pin count and package type.  A similar thing
> would happen for 12 bit cores, and so on...

   This may not be such a good idea, since it would burden even the
   smallest pin-count devices with the cost of all those unneeded
   features.

> This would allow for such wonderful concepts as 3 UARTS on a 12C508
> (8 pin) package.  Why should a 40 pin device have a UART but not an
> 8 pin? How is pin count related to the features available?

   It's not pin count per se; it's package size.  Some of those
   peripherals -- especially EEPROM -- require a lot of die
   space, and they just won't fit in the smallest packages.

> 5. A few more MHz on the clock.

   I wouldn't be surprised to see this in future devices.

   Microchip is already solving the same problem in another way,
   though, by enhancing the instruction set in their upcoming
   devices.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - EraseMEfastfwdspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499 (personal)
=== http://www.netcom.com/~fastfwd (business)

1998\05\14@162715 by wwl

picon face
On Thu, 14 May 1998 06:34:36 -0600, you wrote:

>If Microchip were to get together with another company, I would PIC
>MAXIM. I love MAXIM's customer support and samples.
No way! Maxim do some nice stuff, but I've found it's usually too
expensive to use in volume products, and you can't get production
parts at sensible leadtimes.
    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / RemoveMEwwlEraseMEspamEraseMEnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\05\15@104040 by lilel

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face
I wish for a US$0.25  microcontroller.  I don't care how slow, how
few pins, how little memory, how few peripherals, nuthin'.  Just
cheap.

Four years ago Steve Ciarcia started joking that someday they'd be
putting microprocessors in Toasters.  I had to email him to stop
joking about it, because a LOT of toasters have micros in 'em now!!!!
Incluiding the one I'm designing.  A $0.25 micro would fill the bill
nicely.  All it has to do is count time. Now Steve jokes about
Microprocessors in Tennis Shoes.  I'm going to design one of THOSE
too.  As you move your foot the blinking LED will spell out the name
of the tennis shoe in the dark!

"Oh, but toasters would be such a small niche market..."  They
say.  The US toaster market is about 50 million units per year.
Listening now, Microchip?
Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1998\05\15@113821 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 15 May 1998, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> I wish for a US$0.25  microcontroller.  I don't care how slow, how
> few pins, how little memory, how few peripherals, nuthin'.  Just
> cheap.

Well, there is no $0.25 one that I know of, but if you are willing to
spend $0.40 for a mask-programmed 4 bit weirdie from the Far East, post
the question again in comp.embedded and it will be answered ;) (I have
nothing to do with this, just saw it before there)

Wonder what your side of the globe looks like. Here (I'm in Israel) you
walk into the market and pick up all sorts of Hong Kong and China-made
electronic gizmos for $<very few>. Since this is a far and remote outlet
and the salesman makes a profit (not to mention the factory + shipping)
I'd expect things like a complete AM/FM radio PLL synthesizer chip plus
LCD driver, plus clock, plus a few buttons to cost in the $0.5 range or
less at the factory gate, wherever that is.

Anyway, as far as I've used PICs so far, I got to do everything with
bit-bashing, from LCDs to UARTs, passing through A/D+D/A and MicroWire,
and even frequency counters, usually without what someone has very
fittingly described as 'the luxury of having interrupts'. So, I don't
really really want anything added, except speed, IO pins as required, and
predictable timing for *everything* *all the time*. In my experience,
bit-bashing libraries that are well debugged and with well known quirks
are MUCH faster to apply than a new hardware feature that may require an,
er, 'silicon errata', such as certain C64 chips I had to do with... So,
imho, for production, a well debugged set of features is worth more than
the technnological bleating edge (within limits of course).

Peter (plp)

1998\05\15@131754 by Andy Kunz

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face
At 06:10 PM 5/15/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On Fri, 15 May 1998, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
>> I wish for a US$0.25  microcontroller.  I don't care how slow, how
>> few pins, how little memory, how few peripherals, nuthin'.  Just
>> cheap.
>
>Well, there is no $0.25 one that I know of, but if you are willing to
>spend $0.40 for a mask-programmed 4 bit weirdie from the Far East, post

Microchip is advertising the PIC16C54B (I think) at $0.40 at their
seminars.  Just got back from one yesterday - not a bad deal.

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\05\17@034918 by Hans Blichfeldt

flavicon
face
It is always difficult for a manufacturer to find out
how the products are used and what the customers really
want. Most manufacturers would respond to customers
needs if they knew them. PIC list may be a way to get
our needs defined in a way that would allow Microchip
(or others) to improve.

A way would be to list wanted features and then vote on them
after some discussion.

I would personally like to see a 16C711/715 type with 12 bit
AD converter.
Also a built-in 32kHz crystal.
Crystals and capacitors takes space in circuits and the layout
is difficult to design to handle high humidity and low power
consumption.
If this cannot be done then perhaps a solution as Texas Instruments
DSP 430 which can use a 32kHz crystal and then an internal
multiplier circuit. - 1-2 uA in sleep with time kept!

Proposed list:
A: Merit for you for individual feature. 0=min 9=max
B: Merit for you between listed items. Only one feature
  to get a 0, one to get a 1 etc.


Feature             |A) 0-9    | B) 0-9   |
--------------------|----------|----------|
12bit AD            |          |          |
--------------------|----------|----------|
Built-in Xtal       |          |          |
--------------------|----------|----------|
Better Power Man.   |          |          |
--------------------|----------|----------|
                   |          |          |
--------------------|----------|----------|
                   |          |          |
--------------------|----------|----------|
                   |          |          |
--------------------|----------|----------|


If interested, please start by building the list
with features.


Best regards,

Hans

--
Temperature Technology
263 Gilbert Street
ADELAIDE  SA  5000

web page:       http://dove.net.au/~ttec
email:          RemoveMEttecspam_OUTspamKILLspamdove.net.au

--

1998\05\17@170421 by Steve Baldwin

flavicon
face
> Proposed list:
> A: Merit for you for individual feature. 0=min 9=max
> B: Merit for you between listed items. Only one feature
>    to get a 0, one to get a 1 etc.

A good idea, but to make it real you would need to consider the cost
of adding those features. Perhaps a column for how much extra you
would pay for a 12 bit ADC at some arbitrary volume (say 10k pieces).

Steve.

======================================================
Steve Baldwin                Electronic Product Design
TLA Microsystems Ltd         Microcontroller Specialists
PO Box 15-680, New Lynn      http://www.tla.co.nz
Auckland, New Zealand        ph  +64 9 820-2221
email: RemoveMEstevebTakeThisOuTspamspamtla.co.nz      fax +64 9 820-1929
======================================================

1998\05\17@175142 by Michael Hagberg

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Please add this item from my wish list.

Local labels in assembler

ie:

Display    nop
       nop
       nop
:L1    nop        ; this label would be treated as Display_L1
       nop
       goto    :L1
       nop
       return

Keyboard    nop
       nop
       nop
:L1    nop        ; this label would be treated as Keyboard_L1
       nop
       goto    :L1    ; this would goto Keyboard_L1
       nop
       return

nop used because i'm too tired to write actual code. it's nice outside and
it's sunday why am i working?

michael

1998\05\17@205656 by paulb

flavicon
face
Michael Hagberg wrote:

> Please add this item from my wish list.
> Local labels in assembler

 I rather prefer the old UNIX masm format used for Motorola:

Display nop
       nop
       bra 2f

1:      nop
2:      nop
       nop
       beq 1b
       nop
       ret

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\05\19@044400 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Use the Parallax Assembler SPASM 4.7; it is free and it is the last one
(unfortunately, "last" means there will be no more). It is excellent for
smaller project (no macros, sorry, but it is the only disadvantage I
think). Look at ftp.parallaxinc.com
Imre


On Sun, 17 May 1998, Michael Hagberg wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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