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PICList Thread
'Another piclist suggestion'
1999\03\26@104008 by Peter Crowcroft

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1. Leave the existing piclist as it is.

2. Start a new, moderated piclist for 'power users'.

This new piclist is only for professional pic developers, experienced
programmers, Microchip associates etc. The issue of censorship does not
arise since any message deemed by the moderator as unworthy would get put
automatically into the normal piclist.

3. In considering this suggestion I would ask members to note what they are
NOT reading in the existing piclist. They are not reading messages from the
power users who were once on the list - myke p, andrew warren, are the 2 I
remember most from several years back.

3. As I mentioned before I get several ruthlessly moderated lists - the
healthfraud one is the most strict. Here among other things chiropractors
and doctors are seeking common ground. Any raised voices or cheap shots get
booted off the list for weeks or permanently. The result is a very high
ratio of information to noise.

I believe this ratio has decreased in the existing piclist over the last
months. I submit that with this decrease the list loses members from the
top end.




regards,  Peter

-------------------------------------------------
Peter J. Crowcroft     DIY ELECTRONICS (HK) Ltd
PO Box 88458,   Sham Shui Po,  Hong Kong
Voice: 852-2720 0255      Fax: 852-2725 0610
        Web: http://kitsrus.com
-------------------------------------------------

1999\03\26@105217 by John A. Craft

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Another way is just to stop posting [OT].

You know, like it used to be.  This list has been a considerable asset for
me, and it can be for new people as well.

Like Tjaart said, Restraint Guys.

Jc.


At 11:17 PM 3/26/99 +1100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\26@122807 by Dan Larson

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I see that many times people ask general electronics questions here because
they really don't know where else to ask.  Also it is clear that there are
many "professional" members of this list that are happy to help out with
these questions.  The list has many expert members and answers are usually
of high quality to those with a genuine need for information.

If this kind of traffic that takes up too much volume and drives
the "good" members away, perhaps it might be useful to occasionally post
a newsletter containing info on other mailing lists more appropriate to general
questions.  A list of good electronics URLs would also be nice.  This can be
considered a defensive measure in some ways.

It could also contain reminders about rules and avoiding
controversial and political topics which can leave threads spinning wildly
out of control for days with all of the protest threads that inevitably
follow them.  And don't the forget plea for members to ignore spam because
the "anit-spam spam" is tens times worse than the spam itself!  And last, but
not least, ***UNSUBSCRIBE instructions***.

What does everyone else think about a weekly newsletter of this
nature?

Dan

1999\03\26@124032 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 11:25 03/26/99 -0600, Dan Larson wrote:
>a newsletter containing info on other mailing lists more appropriate to
general
>questions.  A list of good electronics URLs would also be nice.  This can be

>It could also contain reminders about rules and avoiding
>controversial and political topics which can leave threads spinning wildly
>out of control for days with all of the protest threads that inevitably
>follow them.  And don't the forget plea for members to ignore spam because

>What does everyone else think about a weekly newsletter of this
>nature?

i think this should all be in one "official" piclist faq somewhere on the
www, and i think mark willis is working on one (thanks, mark! :) if i got
that wrong, i could volunteer to start taking suggestions what to put in
there...). then posting the link every now and then would be enough.

ge

1999\03\26@145757 by Clint Sharp

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I don't know if this has already been suggested, but how about splitting
the PIClist in the same kind of way that sci.electronics got split, I.E.
into a basics group, an advanced group and a catch-all group for the
cylinder formula type questions?
--
Clint Sharp

1999\03\26@154217 by Dan Larson

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On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:37:19 -0800, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:

>
>>What does everyone else think about a weekly newsletter of this
>>nature?
>
>i think this should all be in one "official" piclist faq somewhere on the
>www, and i think mark willis is working on one (thanks, mark! :) if i got
>that wrong, i could volunteer to start taking suggestions what to put in
>there...). then posting the link every now and then would be enough.
>

I was thinking of an email news letter sent out to everyone
once a week or so.  The web site is a good idea too, but some people
only have mail access.  Even some of those with web access may pay
dearly for their bandwidth in some parts of the world.

I nice one-two page plain text new letter was what I had in mind.

The FAQ and archive URLs could be posted in the newsletter, however.

This is no new idea really. I have seen these types of newsletters
on usenet newgroups before.  I subscribe to a few other news oriented mailing
lists that send out letters once a week.  It is a nice format.  Short to
download and right there in my mail reader accessible without firing off
a bloated 50MB+ web browser!

I arbitrarily chose 1 week intervals because it is not annoyingly
frequent, but often enough to remind folks of important
information.

Dan

1999\03\27@035257 by Mark Willis

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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
{Quote hidden}

 Working on it, but slow going (I tend to live in "workload saturation"
and get interrupted a lot here) - I'm sorta looking for a web site to
throw it all on (probably xoom.com, I think.)  Don't want it on my
personal web space, for varied reasons <G>

 Seen the ideas about weekly newsletters, and all.  Good ideas, all...

 I suspect we're all sorta "riled up" after the various "invasions of
the topic snatchers" wars we've seen here on the list, I think we'll
cool down, it'll just take time.  ("Talk about talking on the PICList"
does account for a big part of the PICList, as one person was kidding
me;  Ignoring someone who's trolling for a flame war is a good habit to
grow, answering way OT stuff off-list can be good, even just pick a few
people "at random" who you know off the list and ask them about
something - all good list traffic reduction techniques.  Complaining to
the whole list about someone else's bad habits isn't always a good
habit, too.)

 I don't know about splitting the list, one possibility is to find
another existing list that would be a good resource to point people at
for such (general electronics) problems, and mention it in the FAQ?  I
know (for myself) between the voice-users, 2 service dogs, vintage
computer gear, 2 PICs and 3 other embedded micro lists, and so on, I
just plain run out of time (Some lists I archive & go scan when I hit a
problem & see if there's an existing solution in there already.)  I
think my brain would explode if I joined another list <G>

 Let me just go get a web page started, maybe I'll volunteer someone to
collate & "pressure cook" the suggestions, Delegation is good when
you're overloaded (I seriously need to go spend some time moving in and
some coding time on the current project.  Want to get at least 10 lines
a week written and tested...)

 Mark

1999\03\27@041128 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 00:51 03/27/99 -0800, Mark Willis wrote:
>  I don't know about splitting the list, one possibility is to find
>another existing list that would be a good resource to point people at
>for such (general electronics) problems, and mention it in the FAQ?

i don't know how obvious this is, but i've found the newsgroups
comp.arch.embedded (for micros in general and also pics) and
sci.electronics.design (for general electronics design questions --
somewhat obvious :) to be without too much noise and some good stuff, too.

ge

1999\03\27@111245 by Eric Oliver

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Gerhard,

When I first started trying to learn electronics, I monitored the
sci.electronics.basic group for awhile. I learned a lot and even posted
some questions. Alas, often my questions went unanswered.  I'm not
complaining, mind you, as the trouble with free information exchange is
that one is not obligated to give it away :). It's just that, I learned
more in a week on this list than a month in the sci..basic discussion
group. I think mainly because, in general, even the OT posts are relevant
to embedded programming/design.

As someone else posted, what worries me is that the really knowledgeable
members of this list will go away because the content is boring or
irritating. If that happens ( or already is happening ), then I, by posting
OT questions, will have helped destroy what makes this list so valuable in
the first place. I _don't_ want that to happen.

So now I find my self in a quandary. What is OT and what is not. For
instance, I recently posted a question on "What is Impedance" (and I got
excellent answers, BTW).  On one hand, a reader will immediately say "That
is OT and should not be on the list."  On the other hand, every circuit I
build has a PIC in it.  That's not an exaggeration, it's just that I only
own PIC tools and I my main interest in electronics is embedded systems. So
it's all on topic to me :). I did mark the impedance question OT, BTW, just
to be safe.

So here's the rub, I need more specific guidelines to further separate the
white ( on topic ), gray ( not sure ), and black ( OT ).  I truly want to
be able to use this list as a valuable information resource without abusing
it.

Here's a good one. Should this subject line contain [OT] ?

Eric

1999\03\27@143951 by Wagner Lipnharski

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I already offered it before, and still available.
I have a website with unlimited space available, and I would be glad to
dedicate a special page to the PICLIST, files, weekly facts, faqs,
letters, tips, whatever.
Wagner.

Mark Willis wrote:
>   Working on it, but slow going (I tend to live in "workload saturation"
> and get interrupted a lot here) - I'm sorta looking for a web site to
> throw it all on (probably xoom.com, I think.)  Don't want it on my
> personal web space, for varied reasons <G>

1999\03\27@155739 by Mark Willis

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Eric Oliver wrote:
{Quote hidden}

 One anti-SPAM list I'm on has tags like "ABUSE", "META", "BLOCK",
"RELAY", "MISC", etc. - this would have a META prefix on that list
(We're talking ABOUT the list, on the list.)  [Probably, I'd call META
topics OT (they're not about PICs) but that's MY take, not Jory's <G>]

 On that list, you can set yourself to get or not get messages starting
with various prefixes - and any post without such a prefix, is not sent
to the list at all, I think.  A little steeper learning curve for
newbies, rather obviously!  We may be able to do something like that (I
think that'd be a Vote/consensus & ask Jory type of thing, I'll look
into the listserve software on that, I think I recall seeing something.)

 We could split the OT category into "[OT] Electronics", "[OT] Meta",
"[OT] Solar", and so on headers, so that someone filtering who wants
Meta and Solar topics, but no other OT stuff, could potentially filter
that way?  We'd want the divisions to be clear, filterable, and usable
as well as used...

 Myself, I like the occasional OT post, we tend to maybe over-do it
though.  Gotta run for now...

 Mark

1999\03\27@161440 by Mark Willis

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My best guess is that having a couple (say with one mirroring the
other) may be the best bet, Tjaart's web page has been handy here for me
to point people to.  With the Internet being as it is and occasional
system failures, mirrored is good though <G> Looked at Xoom.Com, it's a
little "Adverised" so maybe I'll pass on their site.  (Part of why I
thought of Xoom etc. was that either Jory or myself could change things
on there, but that's do-able if someone else does it all, too.)

 I did figure out how to post the Mini-FAQ 4 times a month (I'll have
to fire it off from Netscape.Net, or the like, and do it on certain days
- 2nd, 8th, 15th, 22nd, that sort of thing, I think, I don't think that
has a "weekly" option but it's certainly do-able.)  Best I can do until
I get an ADSL or Cable Modem here, then I could do it all here.

 Mark

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\28@234105 by Tjaart van der Walt

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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> >What does everyone else think about a weekly newsletter of this
> >nature?
>
> i think this should all be in one "official" piclist faq somewhere on the
> www, and i think mark willis is working on one (thanks, mark! :) if i got
> that wrong, i could volunteer to start taking suggestions what to put in
> there...). then posting the link every now and then would be enough.
>
> ge

Whilst mine is certainly not 'official', it's been up for a few
weeks. It also offers a helping hand to the net-challenged who
have trouble sub/unsubscribing etc.

Myke also has good info on the PIClist on his page. He's got a
list of netiquette rules too. Hey Myke, mind if I copy them?

http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/piclist.html

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