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PICList Thread
'16c84 reprogram cycle life?'
1997\01\22@190955 by Tony Matthews

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Hi people I have a pic 16c84-10/p that has bourne the brunt of my
efforts at learning the pic assembly language and it failed at what I
estimate as 200 or so times (being reprogrammed).The symptoms were an
absolute refusal to be reprogrammed with no previous errors during
programming. Or rather I should say no more than the usual ocasional
glitch.I have a few others so my question is was 200 times to much.My
program is nearly complete and it writes accumulated values to eeprom as
well as user changes with a million writes lifetime I estimated
approximately 15 years before eeprom failure and then only the least
significant digit would be affected. Lead me.     Tony M.

1997\01\22@193514 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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Thus spake Tony Matthews (spam_OUTtonyTakeThisOuTspamMAGICNET.NET):

> I have a few others so my question is was 200 times to much.My
> program is nearly complete and it writes accumulated values to eeprom as
> well as user changes with a million writes lifetime I estimated
> approximately 15 years before eeprom failure and then only the least
> significant digit would be affected. Lead me.     Tony M.

The 1,000,000 cycles specified for the '84 is for the data EEPROM only.
The program EEPROM is spec'ed at 100-1000 erase/write cycles - see
the DC characteristics table in the data sheet. So your 200 cycles is
within spec.

Clyde

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1997\01\22@204311 by Mattias Engstršm

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Clyde Smith-Stubbs wrote:
>
> Thus spake Tony Matthews (tonyspamKILLspamMAGICNET.NET):
>
> > I have a few others so my question is was 200 times to much.My
> > program is nearly complete and it writes accumulated values to eeprom

Just for the fun of it, try this if you have a chip that refuses further
programming:

Take your useless chip, put it in the oven, 150 degrees for 2 hours.
See what happens :-)
I have heard that this should reduce the number of excess electrons
storing up in the memory cells (they gain thermal energy and are capable
of escaping the potential wells), giving you a number of xtra
programming runs.
If it works, you can always use them for the final version once
you got something to implement.

(haven't tried it myself)

Regards, Mattias

1997\01\22@221517 by Tony Matthews

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Mattias Engstrvm wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I thought ? the data sheet I thought it said >1000 cycles I should of
double checked before posting .But then I would not have elicited this
particular response. Thought provoking is'nt it.It was the way it failed
that prompted me to post though.ZAP it was gone.Tony M.

1997\01\23@085713 by Tony Brock-Fisher

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For PROGRAM, not EEPROM memory, the data sheet lists 100 E/W cycles
minimum, 1000 typical. So your part makes spec. Apparently the
program memory is not designed to take as many E/W cycles as the data
EEPROM.

-Tony, K1KP, EraseMEfisherspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuThp-and2.an.hp.com

1997\01\23@134819 by Don McKenzie

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Tony Brock-Fisher wrote:
>
> For PROGRAM, not EEPROM memory, the data sheet lists 100 E/W cycles
> minimum, 1000 typical. So your part makes spec. Apparently the
> program memory is not designed to take as many E/W cycles as the data
> EEPROM.
>
> -Tony, K1KP, fisherspamspam_OUThp-and2.an.hp.com

For some real world stuff on 84 reprogram cycles, check the article "To
Spade a PIC" at:
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~donmck/84.html

Don McKenzie @spam@donmckKILLspamspamlabyrinth.net.au
DonTronics Tullamarine, Australia
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~donmck

SLI, the serial LCD that auto detects baud rates from 30 to 125K bps.
SimmStick(tm) A PIC proto PCB the size of a 30 pin Simm Memory Module.
EASY PIC'n Beginners Guide to using PIC 16/17 MicroChip products.

1997\01\23@193029 by Leon Heller

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In message <KILLspam32E74107.50BDKILLspamspamisy.liu.se>, =?iso-8859-
1?q?Mattias_Engstr=F6m?= <RemoveMEy92matenTakeThisOuTspamISY.LIU.SE> writes
>Clyde Smith-Stubbs wrote:
>>
>> Thus spake Tony Matthews (spamBeGonetonyspamBeGonespamMAGICNET.NET):
>>
>> > I have a few others so my question is was 200 times to much.My
>> > program is nearly complete and it writes accumulated values to eeprom
>
>Just for the fun of it, try this if you have a chip that refuses further
>programming:
>
>Take your useless chip, put it in the oven, 150 degrees for 2 hours.
>See what happens :-)
>I have heard that this should reduce the number of excess electrons
>storing up in the memory cells (they gain thermal energy and are capable
>of escaping the potential wells), giving you a number of xtra
>programming runs.
>If it works, you can always use them for the final version once
>you got something to implement.

I saw this mentioned a long time ago as a way to reclaim faulty EPROMs.
I tried it on some 2716s, but they were still dead afterwards.

Leon
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1997\01\26@214706 by TONY NIXON 54964

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I,ve been using a '84 4MHz for quite a while. It has been in and out
of numerous mini projects and prototypes. It has served itself well
so far.

Tony


Just when I thought I knew it all,
I learned that I didn't.

1997\01\27@090346 by Martin McCormick

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       Is there any way to tell when a 16C84 is getting close to the end of
its reprogrammability so that one can put some stable code in it and
permanently use it for something that isn't likely to change?

Martin McCormick

1997\01\27@102850 by David Tait

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Martin McCormick writes:

>         Is there any way to tell when a 16C84 is getting close to the end of
> its reprogrammability so that one can put some stable code in it and
> permanently use it for something that isn't likely to change?

What you could do is sacrifice a location (in fact I think the 16C84
has some test memory at logical addresses 0x2008-0x200F but I don't
know whether it uses exactly the same technology as the program
memory).  The idea is to repeatedly bash that one location to assess
endurance before you start using the chip normally.

David
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http://www.man.ac.uk/~mbhstdj

1997\01\27@131551 by Tim Kerby

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Hi
Yes - some programmers like the one I have from Forest Electronic
Developments let you program the user ID with the device sequence allowing a
count of how many times the 84 has been programmed being embedded in the 84.
If you know how long it will last then you can permanently use it for
something that isn't likely to change.

Tim

At 07:59 27/01/97 -0600, you wrote:
>        Is there any way to tell when a 16C84 is getting close to the end of
>its reprogrammability so that one can put some stable code in it and
>permanently use it for something that isn't likely to change?
>
>Martin McCormick
>


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1997\01\27@190730 by Tony Matthews

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Martin McCormick wrote:
>
>         Is there any way to tell when a 16C84 is getting close to the end of
> its reprogrammability so that one can put some stable code in it and
> permanently use it for something that isn't likely to change?
>
> Martin McCormick
I recieved no warning when my 84' 10mhz blew it's cool. The rate of
errors did not noticably change.I added circuitry to my an589 type
programmer to emulate my target with a run/prog switch.And therefore had
no need to remove the chip <point being ESD unlikely. :(
I do not really know how many times I programmed it. I use a batch file
to call the programmer but failed to add a counter sorry maybe <=200
times.  Tony M.

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