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'[PIC]Olimex PIC-PG4'
2006\11\05@033134 by Paul Anderson

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Hope I have this categorized right:)  If not, do let me know.  I have
the Olimex PG4 board, with a PIC16F84A.  I'm aware that the olimex
board uses the serial port for power, and it will not work with a USB
to serial adapter.  Unfortunately, I don't have a serial port on this
computer.  Is it possible to power the olimex board off of a 9v
adapter while programming?  Or can that only be used while the chip is
running?

--
Paul Anderson
VE3HOP
spam_OUTwackyvorlonTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com

2006\11\05@042846 by Rob Hamerling

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Hi Paul,

Paul Anderson wrote:
> Hope I have this categorized right:)  If not, do let me know.  I have
> the Olimex PG4 board, with a PIC16F84A.  I'm aware that the olimex
> board uses the serial port for power, and it will not work with a USB
> to serial adapter.

I'm not familiar with this programmer, but I suppose it takes its power
from the DTR and/or RTS pins. If you can use it with your specific
USB-serial converter depends on:
- can it control RTS and/or DTR at the serial connector
- does it supply enough current for the programmer
- does your PC software control RTS and/or DTR
I have a USB-serial converter with support for DTR and RTS and have used
it successfully with a PIC programmer which takes (a little) power from
the RTS pin to control some opto couplers.

Regards, Rob.

--
Rob Hamerling, Vianen, NL (http://www.robh.nl/)

2006\11\05@045242 by Howard Winter

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Paul,

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 03:31:21 -0500, Paul Anderson wrote:

> Hope I have this categorized right:)  If not, do let me know.  I have
> the Olimex PG4 board, with a PIC16F84A.  I'm aware that the olimex
> board uses the serial port for power, and it will not work with a USB
> to serial adapter.  Unfortunately, I don't have a serial port on this
> computer.  Is it possible to power the olimex board off of a 9v
> adapter while programming?  Or can that only be used while the chip is
> running?

Looking at the circuit diagram:  http://www.olimex.com/dev/images/pic-pg4d-sch.gif  it seems to be using pin 3 of the "PGM" socket to supply the 13V programming voltage, so as far as I can see you'll need to supply this yourself.  There is no way it can generate the programming voltage on the board - there's just no circuitry to do so, unless I've missed something!  :-)

Now unless I've forgotten all I know about RS232 on a DB9 connector, pin 3 is RXD (receive data), and the actual programming is using control signals for the data and clock.  No wonder it won't work with a USB converter!  I think you'll be very lucky to get it to work even if you do supply the programming voltage, unless anyone knows different?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\11\05@051016 by Paul Anderson

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On 11/5/06, Howard Winter <.....HDRWKILLspamspam@spam@h2org.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Now unless I've forgotten all I know about RS232 on a DB9 connector, pin 3 is RXD (receive data), and the actual programming is using control signals for the data and clock.  No wonder it won't work with a USB converter!  I think you'll be very lucky to get it to work even if you do supply the programming voltage, unless anyone knows different?
>
>
I've since started playing with it, trying to make it behave.  It's
not happy at all.  It does seem to erase the chip, when it attempts to
program the process is very hit and miss.  It seems to manage to
program some addresses, but not others.  I'm going to have to do more
reading and see how I can rig this up.

Thanks for the help.

--
Paul Anderson
VE3HOP
wackyvorlonspamKILLspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com

2006\11\05@075224 by Peter van Hoof

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Paul Anderson .....wackyvorlonKILLspamspam.....gmail.com wrote
>On 11/5/06, Howard Winter <EraseMEHDRWspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTh2org.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Now unless I've forgotten all I know about RS232 on a DB9 connector, pin 3 is RXD (receive data), and the actual programming is using control signals for the data and clock. >>No wonder it won't work with a USB converter! I think you'll be very lucky to get it to work even if you do supply the programming voltage, unless anyone knows different?
>>
>>
>I've since started playing with it, trying to make it behave. It's
>not happy at all. It does seem to erase the chip, when it attempts to
>program the process is very hit and miss. It seems to manage to
>program some addresses, but not others. I'm going to have to do more
>reading and see how I can rig this up.

>Thanks for the help.

>Paul Anderson
>VE3HOP
>wackyvorlonspamspam_OUTgmail.com
>http://www.oldschoolhacker.com

Look at this link http://www.qsl.net/eb4eqa/serial_booster/serial_booster.htm if all the signals are there for the programmer something like this might work

Peter van Hoof

2006\11\05@084156 by Vasile Surducan

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This schematic will not work with USB/serial adapter, not because of
the programming levels (which might be ok) but because of USB timings.
Will be fine with the old RS232.
Vasile

On 11/5/06, Paul Anderson <@spam@wackyvorlonKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\05@091404 by Jan-Erik Söderholm

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 On 11/5/06, Paul Anderson <RemoveMEwackyvorlonTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Hope I have this categorized right:)  If not, do let me know.  I have
> the Olimex PG4 board, with a PIC16F84A...

Have you thought about simply getting another programmer ?

Jan-Erik.

2006\11\05@130642 by Denny Esterline

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> Hope I have this categorized right:)  If not, do let me know.  I have
> the Olimex PG4 board, with a PIC16F84A.  I'm aware that the olimex
> board uses the serial port for power, and it will not work with a USB
> to serial adapter.  Unfortunately, I don't have a serial port on this
> computer.  Is it possible to power the olimex board off of a 9v
> adapter while programming?  Or can that only be used while the chip is
> running?
>
> --
> Paul Anderson
> VE3HOP

Voltage levels are only a small part of the problem here. The built in programer is a variation of the JDM type, they work by abusing the RS232 spec to create the voltage levels and timings neccesary for programing. A USB-serial adaptor _cannot_ be made to work with this programmer, there is no way to directly manipulate the control lines in the needed fashion. The only way to do this is to use a PC with a real serial port (which might still have issues) or to use an external programmer.

-Denny


2006\11\05@151741 by William Chops Westfield

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On Nov 5, 2006, at 1:52 AM, Howard Winter wrote:

> Looking at www.olimex.com/dev/images/pic-pg4d-sch.gif
> it seems to be using pin 3 of the "PGM" socket to supply the 13V
> programming voltage, so as far as I can see you'll need to supply
> this yourself.  There is no way it can generate the programming
> voltage on the board - there's just no circuitry to do so, unless
> I've missed something!

The JDM style programmers play loose with the definition of "Ground"
and rs232.  Since a 'real' rs232 port has 18+ Volts between the most
positive and most negative signal levels, generating 13V is no problem.
(then came laptops and such operating closer to +/- 5V for rs232 and
such, and as many people have pointed out now, a USB-serial converter
can't usually manipulate the rs232 control signals fast enough to do
the programming, even if it does generate full voltages.)

BillW

2006\11\05@162018 by Paul Anderson

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On 11/5/06, Jan-Erik Söderholm <spamBeGonejan-erik.soderholmspamBeGonespamtelia.com> wrote:
>
>
> Have you thought about simply getting another programmer ?
>
It looks like I'm going to have to.  I do have a computer I can use
the olimex board with, it's not particularily convenient, though.


--
Paul Anderson
VE3HOP
TakeThisOuTwackyvorlonEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com

2006\11\05@180212 by Tamas Rudnai

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I suppose if that is a desktop computer you could insert a serial card into
it or if that is a laptop you may have a better chance with a PCMCIA card
that provides serial lines -- however I am not sure if that is any better
than USB-2-serial converters? My laptop has a serial line, but has no
connector, so I needed a docking station to be able to use that. (That's
another question that I had trouble with it so the connection was so
unreliable and now I am happily use a PicKit2)

Tamas


On 05/11/06, Paul Anderson <RemoveMEwackyvorlonspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2006\11\05@214014 by John Chung

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--- Denny Esterline <RemoveMEfirmwareEraseMEspamEraseMEtds.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I believe that the current supplied by the RS232 is
not defined. So there is no guarantee enough power is
supplied.

John



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2006\11\06@014829 by Wouter van Ooijen

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>  I believe that the current supplied by the RS232 is
> not defined. So there is no guarantee enough power is
> supplied.

read the specs: both source voltage and impdance are defined (with a
wide margin). whether read PCs adhere to the specs is another matter :(

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


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