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'[PIC] SMD sized PICs'
2006\08\07@043833 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Hi,

I am not sure if my prevoius message on this went through as I forgot to put
the [PIC] tag in the subject so here we go again:

Is anybody has experience on SMD sized PICs used as a hobbyist / small
production? Couple of questions pop into my mind:

- There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program it without ICSP?

- I could not find any info on the program memory types, so are they OTP or
Flash or anything else?

- What tool do you recommend for dealing with SMD stuff (small production as
10 maybe 15 a month with 5-10 parts on the board so I would need a bit
cheaper ones no matter if it takes more time or more expensive to build
with)

- Is there any place in Ireland or UK where I have a chance to buy
copper-clad boards that are not as thick (the standard is 1.6mm I think and
I was thinking of having as thin as possible as the size will be really
small -- the lighter is better

Thanks
Tamas



--
unPIC -- The PIC Disassembler
http://unpic.sourceforge.net

2006\08\07@050620 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am not sure if my prevoius message on this went through as I forgot to put
> the [PIC] tag in the subject so here we go again:
>
> Is anybody has experience on SMD sized PICs used as a hobbyist / small
> production? Couple of questions pop into my mind:
>  
Yes. We all have.
> - There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program it without ICSP?
>  
That's all ya got, UNLESS you purchase an adapter from http://www.emulation.com
. Expect to pay $80
USD or more for an adaptor for, say, a TSSOP20.
> - I could not find any info on the program memory types, so are they OTP or
> Flash or anything else?
>  
Almost ALL new devices are flash only. That means you can program over
and over.
> - What tool do you recommend for dealing with SMD stuff (small production as
> 10 maybe 15 a month with 5-10 parts on the board so I would need a bit
> cheaper ones no matter if it takes more time or more expensive to build
> with)
>  
If you get no smaller than SOIC, small-tipped irons work pretty well,
unless you are a real klutz. Otherwise
you will need a hot-air soldering station. Unfortunately, these are not
cheap.
> - Is there any place in Ireland or UK where I have a chance to buy
> copper-clad boards that are not as thick (the standard is 1.6mm I think and
> I was thinking of having as thin as possible as the size will be really
> small -- the lighter is better
>  
I don't know about the UK, but I can get two-sided PCBs made as small as
0.022" here in the colonies.

--Bob

> Thanks
> Tamas
>
>
>
>  

2006\08\07@051407 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote :

> There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program
> it without ICSP?

You don't. Why not just use ICSP ?

> I could not find any info on the program memory types,
> so are they OTP or Flash or anything else?

Same as the DIPs. Where on earth did you look !?
It should be perfectly clear from the Microchip web site.

> What tool do you recommend for dealing with SMD stuff..

This isn't PIC specific, so I'll pass on that one...

> Is there any place in Ireland or UK where I have a chance
> to buy copper-clad boards that are not as thick (the standard
> is 1.6mm I think and I was thinking of having as thin as possible
> as the size will be really small -- the lighter is better

I happen to have a few sheets of 0.20, 0.25, 0.50 and 0.80 mm
double sided FR4 laminate. Size 8"x12". The thinner are not *that*
heavy, and I could easily ship from Sweden in a few days.
You could contact me directly on
jan-erik-dot-soderholm-at-telia-dot-com if you're interested.

Jan-Erik.



2006\08\07@053735 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> - Is there any place in Ireland or UK where I have a chance to buy
>> copper-clad boards that are not as thick (the standard is 1.6mm I
>> think and I was thinking of having as thin as possible as the size
>> will be really small -- the lighter is better
>>
>I don't know about the UK, but I can get two-sided PCBs made as small
>as 0.022" here in the colonies.

You should be able to get 1mm thick pretty easily, and probably down to
0.5mm quite readily, but I wouldn't want to trust it for stiffness. I would
have thought that 1mm would be the thickness to aim for.

I have a couple of projects in with PCB Train in Newbury at the moment.
http://www.pcbtrain.co.uk/

Normally I use Olimex, http://www.olimex.com/ but I don't know off hand if
they do thinner than 1.6mm for their prototype PCB, and they are on holiday
for all of august, which is why I'm using this one just down the road, but a
bit more expensive.

2006\08\07@061825 by PicDude

flavicon
face
On Monday 07 August 2006 03:38, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am not sure if my prevoius message on this went through as I forgot to
> put the [PIC] tag in the subject so here we go again:
>
> Is anybody has experience on SMD sized PICs used as a hobbyist / small
> production? Couple of questions pop into my mind:
>
> - There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program it without ICSP?

I pre-program using a small SSOP socket adapter I bought for $50-60 IIRC.  But
my boards are also setup for ICSP.  Due to space constraints, this however
means tack-soldering a few wires to pads around the board, so I use ICSP is
just for changes.


> - I could not find any info on the program memory types, so are they OTP or
> Flash or anything else?

Flash.


> - What tool do you recommend for dealing with SMD stuff (small production
> as 10 maybe 15 a month with 5-10 parts on the board so I would need a bit
> cheaper ones no matter if it takes more time or more expensive to build
> with)

Soldering tool?  I use a generic Weller soldering iron with a very small tip,
and some wick to remove the excess.  Works pretty well, even if I do say so
myself.


> - Is there any place in Ireland or UK where I have a chance to buy
> copper-clad boards that are not as thick (the standard is 1.6mm I think and
> I was thinking of having as thin as possible as the size will be really
> small -- the lighter is better

IIRC Olimex will do 1/32" board.  You do the math to metric :-)

Cheers,
-Neil.


>
> Thanks
> Tamas
>
>
>
> --
> unPIC -- The PIC Disassembler
> http://unpic.sourceforge.net

2006\08\07@063738 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>IIRC Olimex will do 1/32" board.  You do the math to metric :-)

1/32" will be 0.8mm - 1/16" is 1.6mm.

2006\08\07@063756 by Jinx

face picon face
> There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program
> it without ICSP?

I've had success using a PCB mounted on a 40-pin DIP
socket (which goes into the Picstart Plus ZIF) and holding
the chip down with a spring. Fairly easy and cheap to make.
The pads needed are the 5 for ISCP (0V, 5V, MCLR, Data,
Clock). An outline of plastic centres the chip. The spring is
an extension type, the sort you'd find in a disposable lighter.
Fixed to the PCB at one end of the chip, it's pulled tight and
hooked at the other end of the chip. A piece of 2mm plastic
sheet is between the spring and the chip. Sounds primitive
but it works OK. I've used it on SMT 628s, but not yet
on SMT 10F200s. I see no reason why it shouldn't work
with those too (maybe finding that out sooner rather than
later)

The other option is to have pads on your target PCB and
program with ICSP using pogo pins. Before I got some of
the proper ones, I used spring-loaded pins from the spares
box. They were meant for holding watch straps but were a
pretty good substitute for pogo pins. Worked alright

2006\08\07@095531 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:14:01 +0200 (MEST), you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Mega Electronics (http://www.megauk.com) do 0.8mm photoresist board, but only in big sheets
RS (rshttp://www.com)also do thin photoresist laminates, e.g. 159-5802 for a DS eurocard in 0.8mm.
Also 0.4mm thick stock no. 292-6948.
The RS stuff is made by a French company called CIF, http://www.cif.fr/ who also make photoresist
PCB in a variety of thicknesses and materials including  teflon & flexi & Alu clad


2006\08\07@102458 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Thanks all of you for the answer. So generally speaking better to use ICSP
and my shaking hands to put it into its place :-) I have to rethink the
whole and have to go back to the library :-)

Anyway, the matter of fact the 10F200 is more than enough for this module
(currently using only the half of the program memory space of it) and I just
thought I could make just a bit bigger PCB so that the few resistors and
capacitors around it fits perfectly but no more.

Sorry for the stupidity of me but I am coming from the computer programmer
field -- ok, as a low level programmer but it is still...

Thanks very much again!
Tamas



On 07/08/06, Jinx <spam_OUTjoecolquittTakeThisOuTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\08\07@105646 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Thanks all of you for the answer. So generally speaking better to use ICSP

Yes

>and my shaking hands to put it into its place :-) I have to rethink the
>whole and have to go back to the library :-)

For fitting SMD parts to a PCB without using one of the little vacuum pickup
tools, look for a pair of normally closed ("crossover") tweezers. If you
attempt to use the normal style, your fingers will twist the tips and the
component will go flying where you will not find it, but the crossover ones
hold the component without effort on your part.

2006\08\07@111343 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> Thanks all of you for the answer. So generally speaking better to use ICSP
> and my shaking hands to put it into its place :-) I have to rethink the
> whole and have to go back to the library :-)
>
> Anyway, the matter of fact the 10F200 is more than enough for this module
> (currently using only the half of the program memory space of it) and I just
> thought I could make just a bit bigger PCB so that the few resistors and
> capacitors around it fits perfectly but no more.
>
> Sorry for the stupidity of me but I am coming from the computer programmer
> field -- ok, as a low level programmer but it is still...
>  

er.,.,. sometimes we get a bit rough. If we get too rough, just tell us.

The 10F200 will be hard to ICSP because every pin is needed for ICSP, and
you'll have to disconnect stuff in order to get it to work (generally
speaking). I
would start with a higher level device, where the ICSP pins are "extra"
and won't
interfere with your circuit. At least a 14=pin device, like the PIC16F630.

--Bob
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2006\08\07@125454 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Alan, thanks for the tip! Usually I loose micro springs like that but those
can be easily find by a magnet :-)

On 07/08/06, Bob Axtell <engineerspamKILLspamneomailbox.com> wrote:
>
>
> er.,.,. sometimes we get a bit rough. If we get too rough, just tell us.


No, that's all right, I was laughing about myself as I realized how couldn't
I get the point of reading the documents :-)


> The 10F200 will be hard to ICSP because every pin is needed for ICSP, and
> you'll have to disconnect stuff in order to get it to work (generally
> speaking). I
> would start with a higher level device, where the ICSP pins are "extra"
> and won't
> interfere with your circuit. At least a 14=pin device, like the PIC16F630.


Yes, I am playing with 16F627 for quite a long now, but for the app I wanted
to make needs to be as small and light as possible - that's why I thought of
10F200 with the SOT package. Actually I may have lucky as I use only one
input and one output lines and as far as I concern both can be connected
directly to the chip. As both line has already equipped with a connector my
plan is that I just put an extra pin to the MCLR so that I can give 13V to
that during programming. With this way I could easily connect the whole lot
to my ICSP socket of my programmer -- or did I miss something obvious?

Thanks
Tamas



--Bob
{Quote hidden}

2006\08\07@130035 by Matt Pobursky

flavicon
face
On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:56:42 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:
> For fitting SMD parts to a PCB without using one of the little
> vacuum pickup tools, look for a pair of normally closed
> ("crossover") tweezers. If you attempt to use the normal style,
> your fingers will twist the tips and the component will go flying
> where you will not find it, but the crossover ones hold the
> component without effort on your part.

I've actually found the opposite. I build lots of SMD prototypes and
have quite a few high quality stainless steel tweezers. I have
regular and "crossover" types and find that a properly designed and
sized regular type is easier to use for placing SMD parts. A properly
designed tweezer will not require too light a touch and won't let you
easily "over grip" the part and twist the tip. I can't remember the
last time I had a part go shooting off into space with the regular
tweezers.

I find crossover tweezers to be more problematic as the tweezer
itself supplies the gripping force and any amount of squeezing you
apply to the handle while handling the part reduces it. You are
relying on the tweezer to apply the correct gripping force which I
have found varies a lot between component types. For me, it means I
accidently drop parts from time to time because the tweezer doesn't
apply much extra gripping force to the part to begin with and a
little pressure from my grip is all that's required to "release" it.
I find that extremely frustrating.

But like all tools, it's a personal preference thing. Whatever works
best for you is the best tool for the job in the end.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems


2006\08\07@131418 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 8/7/06, Tamas Rudnai <EraseMEtamas.rudnaispam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks all of you for the answer. So generally speaking better to use ICSP
> and my shaking hands to put it into its place :-) I have to rethink the
> whole and have to go back to the library :-)

It's not too hard.

I recommend one of these:
http://www.bargainmicroscopes.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=108&products_id=205

And a temperature controlled iron (the $40 one from Circuit
Specialists is a bargain.)

It's not too hard to solder surface-mount stuff.  Use a paste or
liquid flux.  The surface tension of the solder can actually help pull
the chip into alignment with the pad.  With some experience, surface
mount goes faster than through-hole.  (you don't have to keep flipping
the board over!)

> Anyway, the matter of fact the 10F200 is more than enough for this module
> (currently using only the half of the program memory space of it) and I just
> thought I could make just a bit bigger PCB so that the few resistors and
> capacitors around it fits perfectly but no more.

Keeping ICSP when you have other stuff connected is possible, but
sometimes tricky.  If you must use a 10F200, try to get one of the DIP
ones for prototyping your circuit.
{Quote hidden}

2006\08\07@132123 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 8/7/06, Bob Axtell <@spam@engineerKILLspamspamneomailbox.com> wrote:
> Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am not sure if my prevoius message on this went through as I forgot to put
> > the [PIC] tag in the subject so here we go again:
> >
> > Is anybody has experience on SMD sized PICs used as a hobbyist / small
> > production? Couple of questions pop into my mind:
> >
> Yes. We all have.
> > - There is no socket or whatever, so how do you program it without ICSP?
> >
> That's all ya got, UNLESS you purchase an adapter from http://www.emulation.com
> . Expect to pay $80
> USD or more for an adaptor for, say, a TSSOP20.

I've used these kind of adaptors before, and they work, but they kind
of suck.  Your life will be more pleasant if you can design the
circuit or process to avoid their use.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2006\08\07@160705 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Aug 7, 2006, at 7:24 AM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> the 10F200 is more than enough for this module

Note that microchip sells a programming fixture for the 10F
parts:

http://www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=AC163020

at $36, it's not TOO unreasonable; they have considerably less
reasonably priced adaptors for several other chop sizes.

It seems to be relatively easy to put together a small PCB
adaptor for hobby-volume programming, such as:

http://www.oyajin.jp/~toko/pic/0054/index.html
http://www.oyajin.jp/~toko/pic/0055/index.html
http://www.oyajin.jp/~toko/pic/0070/index.html

BillW

2006\08\07@160822 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Aug 7, 2006, at 8:13 AM, Bob Axtell wrote:

> The 10F200 will be hard to ICSP because every pin is needed for
> ICSP, and you'll have to disconnect stuff in order to get it to work

You can put the 10F on your board, do the ICSP, and then mount
the other components.  (I wouldn't want to do it OFTEN, mind you,
but it should work for hobby projects.)

BillW

2006\08\07@161722 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 8/7/06, William Chops Westfield <KILLspamwestfwKILLspamspammac.com> wrote:
>
> You can put the 10F on your board, do the ICSP, and then mount
> the other components.  (I wouldn't want to do it OFTEN, mind you,
> but it should work for hobby projects.)
>

I don't think I'd enjoy a hobby that required me to get the code right
the first time.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2006\08\07@184955 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Well, I am testing the code for two weeks now and I always found some bugs
:-) But I think I could see the light at the tunnel and hopefully will
receive the 8 pin DIP PICs this week so I can make the prototype. (Yes, 1
week for 3 PICs -- unfortunately I am living in Ireland where seems
everything arrives from the UK by a pedal boat :-)

Tamas


On 07/08/06, Mark Rages <RemoveMEmarkragesTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\08\07@185244 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Thanks Bill,

Fortunately Google makes a very good translation on that site so I had a
chance to understand it :-) It is quite interesting, it seems that it is not
very hard to make and definately very cheap solution.

Thanks again,
Tamas


On 07/08/06, William Chops Westfield <TakeThisOuTwestfwEraseMEspamspam_OUTmac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\08\13@095047 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> - I could not find any info on the program memory types, so
> are they OTP or Flash or anything else?

That is specific for the PIC type, not for SMD/DIP. If you use the
Microchip website you can choose the list of Flash types.

> - What tool do you recommend for dealing with SMD stuff
> (small production as
> 10 maybe 15 a month with 5-10 parts on the board so I would need a bit
> cheaper ones no matter if it takes more time or more
> expensive to build with)

what do you mean with 'tool'? I solder SMD with the same iron I use for
TH. For fine-picth work I use the solder first - remove excess later
method (use fine solder wick). For programming I use an SMD clip or
dedicated connections.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\08\13@101311 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Note that microchip sells a programming fixture for the 10F
> parts:
> www.microchipdirect.com/productsearch.aspx?Keywords=AC163020
> at $36, it's not TOO unreasonable; they have considerably less
> reasonably priced adaptors for several other chop sizes.

Or use the DIP version of the 10F, maybe with an adaptor
(http://www.voti.nl/shop/p/PCB-07.html)
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



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