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'[PIC] MPLAB IDE support will be discontinued on Wi'
2006\04\02@062017 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=152394

I think it makes perfect business sense for Microchip to do this.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\03@115639 by Danny Sauer

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face
Xiaofan wrote regarding '[PIC] MPLAB IDE support will be discontinued on Win 98/ME/NT' on Sun, Apr 02 at 05:24:
> http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=152394
>
> I think it makes perfect business sense for Microchip to do this.

So we'll all have to "upgrade" to Vista, since Windows NT 5.0 (AKA
2000) and 5.1 (AKA XP) won't be supported anymore?

Not that I can read the article, since those fine folks at
Microchip.com are having a problem with their SQL server.  Their
super-securely configured web server says that the problem's in
E:\WEBROOT_MAIN\forum.microchip.com\js\globalfunctions.aspx, around
line 1151, running on "Microsoft .NET Framework Version:1.1.4322.2032;
ASP.NET Version:1.1.4322.2032".

I'd think that people who are so good at securely configuring a MS web
server would also be able to specify which *versions* of NT are being
discontinued.  3.51?  4.0?  5.0?  Particular service packs?  Sigh...

--Danny

2006\04\03@130413 by Bob Barr

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On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:56:38 -0500, Danny Sauer wrote:

>Xiaofan wrote regarding '[PIC] MPLAB IDE support will be discontinued on Win 98/ME/NT' on Sun, Apr 02 at 05:24:
>> http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=152394
>>
>> I think it makes perfect business sense for Microchip to do this.
>
>So we'll all have to "upgrade" to Vista, since Windows NT 5.0 (AKA
>2000) and 5.1 (AKA XP) won't be supported anymore?
>

>From what I've seen on the Microchip forums, Win2K and WinXP will
still be supported. Win98, WinME, and WinNT are being dropped as
supported operating systems.


Regards, Bob

2006\04\03@133312 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

> So we'll all have to "upgrade" to Vista, since Windows NT 5.0 (AKA
> 2000) and 5.1 (AKA XP) won't be supported anymore?
>
Sigh.  You might "know" that "WXP" is really "NT 5.1", but that's
NOT what anyone who says "NT will no longer be supported" in a
press release had in mind.  That's why Microsoft changed the
"visible name."

(In this case, the actual Microchip announcement is unusually clear
in stating that all they're doing is dropping the TESTING/support
for older operating systems.  There's no drastic change in the SW
architecture' they're just declining to make sure that it runs on
all that "old stuff."  So it probably still works on W98, you just
can't complain if it doesn't.)

BillW

2006\04\03@135130 by olin piclist

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Danny Sauer wrote:
> So we'll all have to "upgrade" to Vista, since Windows NT 5.0 (AKA
> 2000) and 5.1 (AKA XP) won't be supported anymore?

Of course not.  I don't know where you got that from, but they are only
obsoleting support for Win9x.  Good riddance.

Support will continue for Windows 2000 and up.  Some day they will probably
drop support for Win2000, but it's closely compatible to XP and up at the
driver and API level and plenty of people are still using it, so I don't
think this will happen anytime soon.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\04\03@135332 by William Killian

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face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of Bob Barr
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:04 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [PIC] MPLAB IDE support will be discontinued on Win
98/ME/NT
>
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:56:38 -0500, Danny Sauer wrote:
>
> >Xiaofan wrote regarding '[PIC] MPLAB IDE support will be discontinued
on
{Quote hidden}

It makes sense to me for Microchip to support the same Windows platforms
that Microsoft does and no more.  They seem to think the same way.




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2006\04\03@150154 by Roy J. Gromlich - PA

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Now that's nice.  I have two computers here - one running Win98SE and the other running Win0Me.
Neither is capable of running Win-XP, as there are NO DRIVERS available for either one of them to
support those OS releases.

Thank you MicroChip - I suppose I will have to look at the Atmegas after all.

Roy J. Gromlich

----- Original Message -----
 From: William Killian
 To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
 Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:54 PM
 Subject: RE: [PIC] MPLAB IDE support will be discontinued on Win 98/ME/NT




 > {Original Message removed}

2006\04\03@153223 by John Temples

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On Mon, 3 Apr 2006, Roy J. Gromlich - PA wrote:

> Now that's nice.  I have two computers here - one running Win98SE and the other running Win0Me.
> Neither is capable of running Win-XP, as there are NO DRIVERS available for either one of them to
> support those OS releases.

"Not supported" doesn't mean "won't run."  It just means they won't
test it on those OSes.

Win98 itself is "not supported" by Microsoft.

> Thank you MicroChip - I suppose I will have to look at the Atmegas after all.

Do you really think Atmel will give you lifetime Win98 support for
their tools?

--
John W. Temples, III

2006\04\03@154627 by Robert Rolf

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John Temples wrote:

{Quote hidden}

It's lifetime support as long as you don't UPGRADE anything.

And it's not that the tools won't WORK on Win 9x/ME.
It's just that they won't be TESTED and guaranteed to work.

As it is, Microchip dropped ICD support after version 5, yet the
unit is perfectly capable of programming 'A' flavour chips,
albeit as a bit of a hack (updated firmware translates from non 'A'
programming algorithm).
It's not like it was THAT hard to keep ICD support in later flavours
of MPLAB, but they dropped it in flavour of their own (ICD2) hardware.

Robert


2006\04\03@161305 by olin piclist

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Roy J. Gromlich - PA wrote:
> Now that's nice.  I have two computers here - one running Win98SE and
> the other running Win0Me.
> Neither is capable of running Win-XP, as there are NO DRIVERS
> available for either one of them to
> support those OS releases.

You don't have to run WinXP, Win2000 is good enough.  It's hard to believe
you have a standard PC that is worth running that can't accept Win2000.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\04\03@161952 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
I'm interested to learn more about these computers.  It seems to me
that the generic VGA, keyboard, mouse, etc drivers included with
windows XP ought to work fine with any pentium class or greater
system.  Of course, it may not run optimally, and you may lose out on
hardware functionality you've come to depend on.  But they should be
capable of running Windows XP.

Further, many hardware vendors don't supply WinXP specific drivers for
their hardware since the driver is included in WinXP.  You may find
that it runs fine with WinXP despite the apparant lack of drivers.
You'll want to dial down a lot of the eye candy features for
performance reasons, but I have yet to find a computer that didn't do
better with WinXP than it ever did with Win98.

Also, go ahead and start using Atmel regardless of what Microchip
does.  Try out TI, Renesas, etc as well.  The more tools you have, the
better you can approach any given problem.

Lastly, even though they'll stop targetting Win98/ME/NT the latest
version of MPLAB has a lot of life left in it.  I'd be very surprised
to find that you have to quit using PICMicro processors completely
because of this change within the next 5 years.  I'd be _very_
surprised if you didn't get a new computer within that time that
supported WinXP.  So the impact should be very little overall.  At
worst you'll not be able to use some of the latest processors.  Look
at the most recent processor you used - did it come out this year?
When did it come out?  Many, if not most, PIC hobbyists are 2-3 years
behind, especially considering that MChip often 'releases' a chip,
makes it available in MPlab, but doesn't have it available in
production quantities for several months or longer.

Still, it can be annoying to have to use obsolete but still perfectly
usable equipment, especially when it can't support the latest and
greatest.

-Adam

On 4/3/06, Roy J. Gromlich - PA <.....rgromlichKILLspamspam.....pa.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>   > {Original Message removed}

2006\04\03@172331 by Bob Blick

face picon face

> You don't have to run WinXP, Win2000 is good enough.  It's hard to believe
> you have a standard PC that is worth running that can't accept Win2000.

At $139 to $199 a pop for 2000 or XP, I think the money would be better
spent on a new computer.

The pain of reinstalling all your favorite programs - priceless :)

Though I suppose all the people suggesting upgrading the operating system
were not suggesting you actually "buy" it.

Cheerful regards,

Bob


2006\04\03@173818 by Roy J. Gromlich - PA

picon face
The thing is, the 1GHz HP probably will run XP, but it would require a lot  of
fooling around with 3rd party drivers, since HP states explicitly that ther is
NO upgrade path beyond Win-Me and there are NO Win2K or XP drivers of
any kind for this computer on the HP website.  So you are basically on your
own if you want to run something else.

Now, could I get this to work eventually - probably. Do I want to spend the amount
of time it will likely take, and lose ALL of my installed applications to boot -
probably not.  So would I try it - only as an act of desperations.  I have done this
before with other machines (not mine, and I was being paid to do it) and it can be
a very non-fun experience.  WIth one machine we were NEVER able to find drivers
that would work with the on-mother-board sound and video hardware, so we had
to put the whole thing back.  PITA!

RJG
 {Original Message removed}

2006\04\03@174051 by Roy J. Gromlich - PA

picon face
WOuldn't buy it - have plently of sources for install disks.  As was said, the loss
of almost ALL installed and operating programs, and the need to replace ($)
them, keeps me from going for it, at least for now.

RJG
 {Original Message removed}

2006\04\03@180029 by Mike Harrison

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face
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 15:01:33 -0400, you wrote:

>Now that's nice.  I have two computers here - one running Win98SE and the other running Win0Me.
>Neither is capable of running Win-XP, as there are NO DRIVERS available for either one of them to
>support those OS releases.
>
>Thank you MicroChip - I suppose I will have to look at the Atmegas after all.

I doubt Microchip would mourn the loss to their business of someone who can't afford an up-to-date
PC...


2006\04\03@182941 by Jinx

face picon face

> >Thank you MicroChip - I suppose I will have to look at the
> Atmegas after all

That does seem to be cutting off your nose to spite your face

> I doubt Microchip would mourn the loss to their business of
> someone who can't afford an up-to-date PC...

My brother's kids regularly buy $30-$40 PCs from trademe
and they all run XP. Sometimes on the ragged edge but.....

2006\04\03@193129 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 3, 2006, at 2:23 PM, Bob Blick wrote:
>
> At $139 to $199 a pop for 2000 or XP, I think the money
> would be better spent on a new computer.

You're looking in the wrong place.  Try $299 for a whole computer,
including WXP.  Although I think you'll need to tune XP or pay
more for a memory upgrade :-)

>
> The pain of reinstalling all your favorite programs - priceless :)

How many "favorite programs" do you have?  I'm all in favor of
starting from scratch and not installing favorites until you
actually need/want to use them.  Cuts down on cruft...

> Though I suppose all the people suggesting upgrading the
> operating system were not suggesting you actually "buy" it.
>
I am.  At under $400 for a usable computer, you shouldn't object
too hard to buying it as a dedicated piece of development gear,
even if you do NOTHING else with it other than run MPLab.  And at
$200 for WXP by itself, you might as well buy it with a computer
attached...

BillW

2006\04\03@194553 by Bob Blick

face picon face
>> At $139 to $199 a pop for 2000 or XP, I think the money
>> would be better spent on a new computer.
>
> You're looking in the wrong place.  Try $299 for a whole computer,
> including WXP.  Although I think you'll need to tune XP or pay
> more for a memory upgrade :-)

That's what I said, don't buy Windows for $199, buy a new computer.

Cheers,

Bob


2006\04\04@113938 by Herbert Graf

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face
On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 14:23 -0700, Bob Blick wrote:
> > You don't have to run WinXP, Win2000 is good enough.  It's hard to believe
> > you have a standard PC that is worth running that can't accept Win2000.
>
> At $139 to $199 a pop for 2000 or XP, I think the money would be better
> spent on a new computer.
>
> The pain of reinstalling all your favorite programs - priceless :)
>
> Though I suppose all the people suggesting upgrading the operating system
> were not suggesting you actually "buy" it.

Every few months Dell has a sale on their entry level dimension
desktops. $299CND, shipping is free. The system is based on a Celeron,
so it's no speed demon, but hey, what do you expect for $299. It comes
with a copy of WinXP Home.

The machine I'm typing this on is one of these Dells. Only change I made
is deleted XP (wish I could have got a discount by removing XP, but Dell
doesn't allow that, so I've got an XP Home license in a the garbage dump
right now) for Linux, upgraded the memory (Linux likes lots of memory)
and added a DVD burner, all completely unnecessary upgrades if you want
to run MPLAB.

TTYL

2006\04\04@114321 by Herbert Graf

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On Mon, 2006-04-03 at 16:31 -0700, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> >
> > The pain of reinstalling all your favorite programs - priceless :)
>
> How many "favorite programs" do you have?  I'm all in favor of
> starting from scratch and not installing favorites until you
> actually need/want to use them.  Cuts down on cruft...

While I was still running Windows I had a sort of "tradition" of wiping
my system and starting new once a year. It's amazing how much faster a
system runs when you start new and get rid of all the crap you didn't
use.

These days I still wipe/install about once a year, but that's tied to
new releases of Fedora (just installed Fedora Core 5, it is SWEET, alot
of enhancements since FC4, very happy so far). Generally I either buy a
new hard drive (keeping the old one around in case I need something from
it) or use one of the bigger drivers from an earlier reinstall.

TTYL

2006\04\04@132619 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:39 AM 4/4/2006 -0400, you wrote:


>The machine I'm typing this on is one of these Dells. Only change I made
>is deleted XP (wish I could have got a discount by removing XP, but Dell
>doesn't allow that, so I've got an XP Home license in a the garbage dump
>right now) for Linux, upgraded the memory (Linux likes lots of memory)
>and added a DVD burner, all completely unnecessary upgrades if you want
>to run MPLAB.

In the past year or so I've seen machines at Sam's Club for not much more
than that wot comes with XP Professional. I think the machine was actually
cheaper or not much different than the price of the full (i.e. not upgrade)
O/S alone at Staples.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
EraseMEspeffspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2006\04\05@121604 by Danny Sauer

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face
Bob wrote regarding 'Re: [PIC] MPLAB IDE support will be discontinued on Win 98/ME/NT' on Wed, Apr 05 at 10:57:
> That's what I said, don't buy Windows for $199, buy a new computer.

Or just buy a new hard drive and an OEM copy of Windows from your
local "computer parts" store, and save some money (while also getting
more storage space).

Unless the rules have changed in the last few weeks, a hard drive,
motherboard, or possibly CPU qualifies the buyer as purchaser of a new
system, and therefore as a system builder who is able to get OEM
pricing legally.  2K or XP (home) should run somewhere aruond $50 in
that case, IIRC.

--Danny, who still refuses to buy such a POS system... :)

2006\04\06@075610 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 4/4/06, Herbert Graf <mailinglist2spamspam_OUTfarcite.net> wrote:

> While I was still running Windows I had a sort of "tradition" of wiping
> my system and starting new once a year. It's amazing how much faster a
> system runs when you start new and get rid of all the crap you didn't
> use.
>
> These days I still wipe/install about once a year, but that's tied to
> new releases of Fedora (just installed Fedora Core 5, it is SWEET, alot
> of enhancements since FC4, very happy so far). Generally I either buy a
> new hard drive (keeping the old one around in case I need something from
> it) or use one of the bigger drivers from an earlier reinstall.
>
> TTYL

Interestingly Linux is more and more like Windows. ;-)

Before Windows XP SP2, I reinstalled Windows every 3 to 6 months at
the home computer. I reinstalled Linux almost every month at one
time since I felt none of the distributions were good enough. That was
several years ago.

Now I do not reinstall Windows XP SP2 and Linux so often. Actually
the XP installation has been about one year old. I still reinstall
Linux from time to time. However the two Linux partitions are
relatively stable now (Ubuntu Breezy --> main and Fedora Core 4
-->seldom used). There is still one partition for experiment
(used to be FreeBSD but was killed since PICkit 2 and ICD2 are
not working) which is now Ubuntu Hoary 64bit. I may want to
replace FC4 with FC5 though but Ubuntu is so good that I do not
want to switch. I finally boot Ubuntu Breezy 32bit more often than
Windows XP at home starting from this year so I could qualified to
be called a real Linux user now...

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\06@124704 by Peter Todd

picon face
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 07:56:09PM +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> Now I do not reinstall Windows XP SP2 and Linux so often. Actually
> the XP installation has been about one year old. I still reinstall
> Linux from time to time. However the two Linux partitions are
> relatively stable now (Ubuntu Breezy --> main and Fedora Core 4
> -->seldom used). There is still one partition for experiment
> (used to be FreeBSD but was killed since PICkit 2 and ICD2 are
> not working) which is now Ubuntu Hoary 64bit. I may want to
> replace FC4 with FC5 though but Ubuntu is so good that I do not
> want to switch. I finally boot Ubuntu Breezy 32bit more often than
> Windows XP at home starting from this year so I could qualified to
> be called a real Linux user now...

Personally I run Debian Linux which has a fairly good packaging system
that can do on the fly upgrades. I've got a server that's been upgraded
through three stable versions of debian, and the hardware has been
upgraded (well, replaining failed parts) to the point where not a single
part is left from the original... That said, I got lucky, I've found
often such major upgrades break stuff, and a reinstall is needed. Mostly
though my computers will go for at least 2 years between reinstalls,
Debian tends to be very slow in coming out with new major versions.

I used to experiment more with different distro's and OSes, Slackware,
RedHat, the various BSD's, but now that I've been using Linux
exclusively for years, I know Debian very well and it's predictable.
I'm sure RedHat etc. has features that I'm missing, but it's good
enough.

--
@spam@peteKILLspamspampetertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\04\06@132550 by Harold Hallikainen

face picon face
At home, I'm running Fedora Core 4 on a couple servers and my laptop. Over
the years, I end up making lots of config file changes. I'm always afraid
some upgrade will not be able to deal with the config files. Similarly, a
complete install is a pain because of all the config files that need to be
edited to make the machine do what I want. On my laptop, a kernel upgrade
broke the PCI. At first I did not relate the problem to the kernel
upgrade, so I did a complete reinstall from CD, then had to deal with
installing ndis for wireless, etc. It takes a while. Later I found PCI
broke again, but tracked the problem to a kernel upgrade. So I just
changed the config to use an older kernel. So... it's fun. I am tempted to
not fix something that's not broken, though that once got me into trouble
when there was a hole in ssl and someone planted code on my server through
that hole.

Getting back to MPLAB, has anyone tried it with WINE? I've not installed
WINE, but am interested in trying it for various old Windows applications
that I'm still running.

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com

2006\04\06@184847 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 4/7/06, Harold Hallikainen <KILLspamharoldKILLspamspamhallikainen.com> wrote:
>
> Getting back to MPLAB, has anyone tried it with WINE? I've not installed
> WINE, but am interested in trying it for various old Windows applications
> that I'm still running.
>
> Harold
>

I've tried this and wrote a howto. With later version of WINE, MPLAB
installation
is working well except the built-in hardware support.
http://forum.microchip.com/tm.aspx?m=112347

Still it is the common agreement among the GNUPIC community
that it is better to support the Linux native programs like
gputils/gpsim/sdcc/pikdev/piklab/ktechlab/...

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\07@112514 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Mike,

On Mon, 03 Apr 2006 23:07:55 +0100, Mike Harrison wrote:

{Quote hidden}

That's a bit mean!  It should never be nesessary to have the *latest* tools to do a job - backward
compatibility used to be the rule in the computer industry at one time!  And MicroChip have always supported
the little customer well in my experience - generally much better than some firms who won't talk to you unless
you're planning on spending six figures with them a year.

And in the OP's case I know the story from someone else who was caught by the same problem:  HP made a load of
machines around the turn of the Millenium that were "designed for Windows ME" and they had proprietary
hardware, with HP-written drivers for ME only.  A friend tried to help someone running a small business (car
repair shop) on one of these - on an average day it had to be rebooted 3 to 5 times, often losing the work in
progress at the time.  I helped to try to get it running Win2k, but HP said it wasn't possible, there were no
drivers other than for ME (and we tried a lot of other sources, just in case) and in the end the machine was
sent back for a refund.  If you see an HP machine with "Designed for Windows ME" on it at a garage sale,
unless you're planning on using it as a doorstop, leave it there!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\07@115738 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:

{Quote hidden}

James HATES it when we rant like this, but I have an WinME story to
share. I had an active business then (1999) using 5 Win98's
and was told my somebody that WinME runs better, so I bought a brand-new
$300 copy at Best Buy. I took it home and tried to
install it into one of the business systems. It never installed... never
even got a Blue Screen of Death.  I then tried ONE more machine.
No luck there, either. Spent all weekend re-installing Win98.

That next Monday, I went back to Best Buy to discuss my install
problems  with a "technician" . He told me that he had never been able
to get it to install either- nor did he know of anybody else that did-
and immediately gave me my money back. That is the first- and only- time
that anybody gave me my money back on software.

--Bob

{Quote hidden}

--
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2006\04\07@140407 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
> I have two computers here - one running Win98SE and the other running
> Win0Me. Neither is capable of running Win-XP, as there are NO DRIVERS
> available for either one of them to support those OS releases.

"NO drivers available" usually means that there are no drivers
for the sound chips (which seem to proliferate), or for 3d Video
acceleration.  Neither of which ought to be necessary for running
MPLAB :-)  Arguably, neither should be needed on a "work" machine
for most tasks; a silent, dumb SVGA mode should be sufficient.

(that said, I've never actually tried to install windows in such
a "stripped down" fashion...  Has anyone done so successfully?)

BillW

2006\04\07@204205 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
William ChopsWestfield wrote:

>> I have two computers here - one running Win98SE and the other running
>> Win0Me. Neither is capable of running Win-XP, as there are NO DRIVERS
>> available for either one of them to support those OS releases.
>
> "NO drivers available" usually means that there are no drivers
> for the sound chips (which seem to proliferate), or for 3d Video
> acceleration.  

Sometimes it even only means that there are no drivers for the /cards/, but
in that case the generic drivers for the /chips/ might still work. (And
sometimes better than the drivers for the cards, even when available.)

> (that said, I've never actually tried to install windows in such
> a "stripped down" fashion...  Has anyone done so successfully?)

I haven't, because it seems that e.g. Win2k comes with enough drivers to
make it run on pretty much anything Win98 ran on (given that there's enough
RAM and speed). With the caveat that old proprietary hardware (like the
sound chips you mentioned) are excluded.

Gerhard

2006\04\07@211518 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 4/7/06, Bob Axtell <spamBeGoneengineerspamBeGonespamcotse.net> wrote:
> James HATES it when we rant like this, but I have an WinME story to
> share. I had an active business then (1999) using 5 Win98's
> and was told my somebody that WinME runs better, so I bought a brand-new
> $300 copy at Best Buy. I took it home and tried to
> install it into one of the business systems. It never installed... never
> even got a Blue Screen of Death.  I then tried ONE more machine.
> No luck there, either. Spent all weekend re-installing Win98.
>
> That next Monday, I went back to Best Buy to discuss my install
> problems  with a "technician" . He told me that he had never been able
> to get it to install either- nor did he know of anybody else that did-
> and immediately gave me my money back. That is the first- and only- time
> that anybody gave me my money back on software.
>

Windows ME is the one OS even Microsoft will be shy to mention...
The performance hit compared to Windows 98 SE and other problems
make it one of the worst OS for business.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\08@024546 by Nate Duehr

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Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Interestingly Linux is more and more like Windows. ;-)

Sad, but a sign of how little people care to make it better.  The code's
there... anyone can fix it.

> Before Windows XP SP2, I reinstalled Windows every 3 to 6 months at
> the home computer. I reinstalled Linux almost every month at one
> time since I felt none of the distributions were good enough. That was
> several years ago.

Linux is what people make of it.

Windows is what some company makes of it.

They are what they are.

Nate

2006\04\08@181231 by Howard Winter

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Bill,

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 11:04:03 -0700, William "Chops" Westfield wrote:

>...
> "NO drivers available" usually means that there are no drivers
> for the sound chips (which seem to proliferate), or for 3d Video
> acceleration.  Neither of which ought to be necessary for running
> MPLAB :-)

Sadly in the case of the "Designed for Windows ME" HP machines, it was the motherboard chips that were
involved, including the disk controller and other rather vital stuff.  (I think the graphics processor too,
which would do only 80 x 24 text mode, and possibly bog-standard VGA, unless the right driver was loaded).  
And there really were no drivers available - HP were adamant that the machine would run only ME, and nothing
else - Win2k would not work on those machines (and believe me, we tried!).

It's like these days with USB devices - in theory if everyone follows the rules any USB device should work
with any operating system, but nowadays a lot of the low-end items like memory-card readers, serial
interfaces, pen-drives, etc. don't follow the rules - they supply their own driver for Win2k and XP, state
that these are required, and if you want to use it with other OpSyses you're out of luck.  Personally I feel
that with the PC industry being 25 years old, it's disgusting that this still happens!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


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