Searching \ for '[PIC] ICD2 Complaints' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: techref.massmind.org/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm?key=icd
Search entire site for: 'ICD2 Complaints'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[PIC] ICD2 Complaints'
2006\03\30@095946 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
The ICD2 is so incredibly cranky to make use of.  The
problem is not so much the hardware as the firmware,
which provides such cryptic error messages that it is
almost useless.

Why doesn't Microchip release the debug code for
the chips so that a USEFUL piece of equipment
can be designed and sold? There needs to be a
product priced somewhere in the middle of the range
($250-300) that will work properly. The jump from
ICD2 to the ICE4000 is a jump from $150 to $4000.

Here are my specific complaints:

1. ONE ICD2 per Host PC is really not enough. I
am frequently involved in development where more
than one PIC needs to be developed AT THE SAME
TIME. Yes, I now use two PC's, and use a switch to
switch the mouse, keyboard, and video. But there is
no need to, in fact.

2. The GROUND system between the ICD2 and the
unit being developed is too weak. The convenience
of the RJ12 is overshadowed by its poor ground. At
the very least, the unused 6th pin should have been
a second ground pin. A better method is simply a more
solid connector with more contact surface area.

3. The error messages are useless. Its ridiculous that
the ICD2 can't realize that it's device has no clock, for
example. Or that the error "Can't Enter Debug Mode"
can't simply say that the debug firmware was never installed
into the chip... disgraceful.

4.  The round shape of the ICD2 has no advantage whatever.
It simply falls off the bench easier.

5. The USB interface, either the driver, the chip used, or both,
seems to be inordinately finicky. At least once a day, I have to
reboot the system to get the USB driver to start working
again. It might be $MS problems, haven't discussed this with
anybody using Linux.

6. Using the DB9, a top speed of 57.6Kb with the FIFO buffer
disabled is just poor design. It should be able to accept 115kb
at the very least and make use of the FIFO buffers; this would
effectively triple the thruput when not using USB. In fact, a
custom speed of 250Kb should be realistic, although the
PIC16F877A  will probably have to be replaced with a 40Mhz
PIC.

Open for flames.

--Bob

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
spam_OUTattachTakeThisOuTspamengineer.cotse.net .
1-520-850-1673 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2006\03\30@103356 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <.....442BF261.7090707KILLspamspam@spam@cotse.net>
         Bob Axtell <engineerspamKILLspamcotse.net> wrote:

> 1. ONE ICD2 per Host PC is really not enough. I
> am frequently involved in development where more
> than one PIC needs to be developed AT THE SAME
> TIME. Yes, I now use two PC's, and use a switch to
> switch the mouse, keyboard, and video. But there is
> no need to, in fact.

I only have one ICD, and I tend to try and design the code in multi-PIC
systems to be modular, so I can test each chip separately. Then when I have
to do the PIC->PIC communication stuff, I grab a logic analyser and start
probing.

> 2. The GROUND system between the ICD2 and the
> unit being developed is too weak. The convenience
> of the RJ12 is overshadowed by its poor ground. At
> the very least, the unused 6th pin should have been
> a second ground pin. A better method is simply a more
> solid connector with more contact surface area.

Can't say I've ever had that problem, but you could open up the ICD and
solder in a piece of wire between the existing ground and the spare pin.

> 4.  The round shape of the ICD2 has no advantage whatever.
> It simply falls off the bench easier.

A few rubber feet would have been nice. And a flattened side so I could place
it on-end. Yeah, there's that little plastic stand in the box, but it isn't
very stable and is far too easy to break.
Something more like the stand you get with the Linksys NSLU2 servers would be
more suitable - a weighted stand made from what appears to be roughly 1mm
thick plastic.

Another point - when the ICD is in Programmer mode, even if the target is
being run, the ICD will not release ICDDAT and ICDCLK. I can understand why
these would be unusable in DEBUG mode, but in Programmer mode, the I/O lines
used for programming should be set into Hi-Z mode so the target device can
make use of them. The bus buffers are TriState capable and the firmware can
always make the output buffers Hi-Z - it has to in order to read the target's
FLASH ROM, so why can't/doesn't the firmware do it?

This is incredibly annoying when debugging LCD PICs - the ICD/ICSP pins are
also used for two of the segment outputs.

Mchip did replace the ICD (they thought it might be a faulty ICD) but the new
one does the same thing. As soon as I suggested the possibility of a firmware
bug or an MPLAB bug, they closed the support ticket. Pretty poor show - not
even a "Yeah, we'll pass that onto the ICD/MPLAB team"...

Just my two pence. Feel free to comment..

--
Phil.                         | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
.....philpemKILLspamspam.....dsl.pipex.com         | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G

2006\03\30@173250 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:59:45 -0700, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Get a cheap laptop. Way more productive than messing with 2 things on one PC, both for multi-chip
debugging and for stuff like sending serial commands to PICs, small enough to not take much bench
space and easy to stash out of the way when not being used.

>2. The GROUND system between the ICD2 and the
>unit being developed is too weak. The convenience
>of the RJ12 is overshadowed by its poor ground. At
>the very least, the unused 6th pin should have been
>a second ground pin. A better method is simply a more
>solid connector with more contact surface area.

Never seen a problem with this - The link is not particularly high frequency and shouldn't be
passing much current so I can't see why this would be an issue unless you have a ground loop - maybe
you could use the RS232 ground pin...

>3. The error messages are useless. Its ridiculous that
>the ICD2 can't realize that it's device has no clock, for
>example. Or that the error "Can't Enter Debug Mode"
>can't simply say that the debug firmware was never installed
>into the chip... disgraceful.

..another stupid one - it doesn't tell you that you can't bulk-erase a code-protected device when
Vcc is too low - just gives the usual unhelpful verify error.

>4.  The round shape of the ICD2 has no advantage whatever.
>It simply falls off the bench easier.

.and makes it more expensive - utterly pointless waste of tooling and manufacturing cost - Round
PCBs are about the least efficient use of PCB space.
Would anyone decide not buy it if it was in an off-the-shelf square box with a label instead of a
custom round one ? No.

>5. The USB interface, either the driver, the chip used, or both,
>seems to be inordinately finicky. At least once a day, I have to
>reboot the system to get the USB driver to start working
>again. It might be $MS problems, haven't discussed this with
>anybody using Linux.

Never had a problem with this. (Win 2K)

>6. Using the DB9, a top speed of 57.6Kb with the FIFO buffer
>disabled is just poor design. It should be able to accept 115kb
>at the very least and make use of the FIFO buffers; this would
>effectively triple the thruput when not using USB. In fact, a
>custom speed of 250Kb should be realistic, although the
>PIC16F877A  will probably have to be replaced with a 40Mhz
>PIC.

Who uses RS232 for this sort of thing nowadays...?  Maybe useful if you need to optoisolate it I
suppose but other than that I can't see why anyone would want to use it on RS232 so not bothered
about performance.

7) Port is not isolated when not programming or debugging. I often use ICD2 as a programmer, as I;ve
found that the limits of the ICD functionality is often not useable, even with the -ICD chips, but
the programming & reset pins are often too heavily loaded. I made a little relay isolator, but I
shouldn't have had to....


2006\03\31@000816 by palam.c

picon face
On 3/31/06, Mike Harrison <EraseMEmikespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:59:45 -0700, you wrote:
> >1. ONE ICD2 per Host PC is really not enough. I
> >am frequently involved in development where more
> >than one PIC needs to be developed AT THE SAME
> >TIME. Yes, I now use two PC's, and use a switch to
> >switch the mouse, keyboard, and video. But there is
> >no need to, in fact.

Is it possible to use two mplab debuggers at the
same time, using COM port ? I tried using USB it didn't
work. I don't have two COM ports so i was not able to
test it .
Anybody tested it ?

regards,
palani

2006\03\31@005805 by Robert Rolf

picon face
palam.c wrote:

> On 3/31/06, Mike Harrison <mikespamspam_OUTwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:59:45 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>>1. ONE ICD2 per Host PC is really not enough. I
>>>am frequently involved in development where more
>>>than one PIC needs to be developed AT THE SAME
>>>TIME. Yes, I now use two PC's, and use a switch to
>>>switch the mouse, keyboard, and video. But there is
>>>no need to, in fact.
>
>
> Is it possible to use two mplab debuggers at the
> same time, using COM port ? I tried using USB it didn't
> work. I don't have two COM ports so i was not able to
> test it .
> Anybody tested it ?

Yes.

You cannot get two instances of MPLAB to run.
"Lock violation".

You can't even get two different versions to INSTALL.
They stomp on each others registry entries. (5 vs 6  since I wanted ICD and ICD2
at the same time).

Anyone come across software that creates virtual machines for windows?
If you have a VM, you could have more than one winblows running so more
than one MPLAB.
But given the tight coupling between MPLAB and the debugger (that's why
the FIFO gets turned off, and why CPU usage is 100% when debugging),
I doubt that a VM would work. Too much abstraction for the hardware.

The shame is that it's really not THAT hard to allow multiple instances
of a program (or program thread). It just takes a little bit of planning.

Have any of the open source IDE's got around to making ICD/ICD2 work?

Robert

2006\03\31@030405 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Robert Rolf wrote :

> Anyone come across software that creates virtual machines for
windows?

I have not tried it yet, but I have a copy
of "Microsoft Virtual PC 2004" on a CD.

It's claimed to be able to run multiple instances of
Windows at the same time.

Jan-Erik.



2006\03\31@043611 by Per Linne

flavicon
face
I actually do that now and then with an ICE2000 and an ICD2.
You have to load a project (workspace whatever they call it)
before you start MPLAB #2.

PerL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Rolf" <@spam@Robert.RolfKILLspamspamualberta.ca>
>
> You cannot get two instances of MPLAB to run.
> "Lock violation".


2006\03\31@060143 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

>> Anyone come across software that creates virtual machines for windows?
>
> I have not tried it yet, but I have a copy of "Microsoft Virtual PC
> 2004" on a CD. It's claimed to be able to run multiple instances of
> Windows at the same time.

I have its predecessor (when it still was Connectix Virtual PC), and it
does exactly that. It doesn't do a miraculous multiplication of RAM,
though, so be prepared to have the RAM you need for multiple instances of
Windows.

It may have lost the ability to run Linux after MS bought it :)

Gerhard

2006\03\31@084759 by Charles Rogers

flavicon
face

>
> Yes.
>
> You cannot get two instances of MPLAB to run.
> "Lock violation".
>
> You can't even get two different versions to INSTALL.
> They stomp on each others registry entries. (5 vs 6  since I wanted ICD
and ICD2
> at the same time).
>

I use a dual monitor system and I can put MPLAB     v5.70 on one
monitor MPLAB v7.31 on the other.  This doesn't serve any useful
purpose but I tried it just to see if it would work and it does.  My dual
monitor system works very well for debugging using MPLAB v7.31

CR

2006\03\31@093600 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 07:48:09 -0600, you wrote:

>
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> You cannot get two instances of MPLAB to run.
>> "Lock violation".
>>
>> You can't even get two different versions to INSTALL.
>> They stomp on each others registry entries. (5 vs 6  since I wanted ICD
>and ICD2
>> at the same time).
>>
>
>I use a dual monitor system and I can put MPLAB     v5.70 on one
>monitor MPLAB v7.31 on the other.  This doesn't serve any useful
>purpose but I tried it just to see if it would work and it does.  My dual
>monitor system works very well for debugging using MPLAB v7.31
>
>CR

This can be a useful setup actually, e.g. Picmaster under 5.70 and  Picstart with new firmware (that
5.7 doesn't understand) under 7.30

As second PCs/laptops are so cheap these days, don't really see that it's worth Microchip spending
effort supporting multiple instances/emulators for a tiny proportion of users...




2006\03\31@095014 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
It's too bad one has to jump through these various work around hoops
in order to get the job done.

One suggestion to the keyboard/mouse/monitor switch is to use MS
remote desktop (if you have windows XP pro on one machine) or VLC.
Then you can treat the extra computer as an application on the primary
computer.  Somewhat like using virtual PC, but with two real
computers.

-Adam

On 3/30/06, Bob Axtell <KILLspamengineerKILLspamspamcotse.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\03\31@113121 by Nicolas

picon face
On 3/30/06, Robert Rolf <spamBeGoneRobert.RolfspamBeGonespamualberta.ca> wrote:
> Have any of the open source IDE's got around to making ICD/ICD2 work?

well piklab (linux only) should work with ICD2 (basic debugging is
limited to 16F parts) and althought I haven't tried it, there is no
reason you shouldn't be able to run two or more ICD2 with several
serial ports and a USB port too...

Nicolas

2006\03\31@130540 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
palam.c wrote:

{Quote hidden}

No, MPLAB won't allow more than one to operate.

--Bob

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
RemoveMEattachspamTakeThisOuTengineer.cotse.net .
1-520-850-1673 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer


'[PIC] ICD2 Complaints'
2006\04\01@132227 by Chris Levin
flavicon
face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
{Quote hidden}

It can still run Linux. I've used it with various flavors including my
old standby - redhat 7.3 - without problems. It really helps to have a
gig of ram or more. More ram equals more simultaneous sessions and
better performance per session.

Overall, the program works well and I use it frequently for software
development and testing. I have not tried using external hardware other
than network connections so I have no idea how well this will work for you.

-Chris

2006\04\02@131703 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Gerhard,

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:01:06 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler
wrote:

> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
> >> Anyone come across software that creates virtual
machines for windows?
> >
> > I have not tried it yet, but I have a copy of
"Microsoft Virtual PC
> > 2004" on a CD. It's claimed to be able to run
multiple instances of
> > Windows at the same time.
>
> I have its predecessor (when it still was Connectix
Virtual PC), and it
> does exactly that. It doesn't do a miraculous
multiplication of RAM,
> though, so be prepared to have the RAM you need for
multiple instances of
> Windows.
>
> It may have lost the ability to run Linux after MS
bought it :)

Very likely - it *certainly* lost the ability to run
OS/2 when that happened  :-(((

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\02@132624 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Bob,

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 07:59:45 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:

> 4.  The round shape of the ICD2 has no advantage whatever.
> It simply falls off the bench easier.

Oh I dunno - I rather like it.  It slides of the bench because it hasn't got high-friction feet (easy to
remedy) and heavy cables dragging it there, not because it's round.  And when it hits the floor, being round
makes it more likely to survive the impact - and there are no corners to get broken off.  Of course if it
drags the test PCB with it, that doesn't have the same protection so it could be a bit tragic, so fitting the
high-friction would be a Good Thing anyway...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\02@171633 by John J. McDonough

flavicon
face
Howard Winter wrote:
>Gerhard,
>
>On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 08:01:06 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler
>wrote:
>
>> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>
>> >> Anyone come across software that creates virtual
>machines for windows?

Lately I've been playing with qemu for Linux.  Kind of cool to be able to
run multiple instances of Windows under Linux.  And it runs fine over X, so
the Windows machines show up on the screen of my XP box, even though the
engine is my FC4 box.  I haven't tried WinXP yet, I have several XP boxes so
that isn't real interesting to me, but the docs contain many references to
W2K and XP so I assume it works.  It does run 3.1 and 95 just fine (I have a
number of programs I like that got flaky under 98 and won't run at all under
XP, so I'm more interested in the oldies).

qemu is easy to install and get running, but I haven't played much yet with
grody details like making the usb port work (although the docs seem to
expect that it should work).  My ICD2 works fine with my XP box so no need.

I sort of get the impression that there might be a qemu for Windows, too.
It is apparently able to emulate other machines than PC's as well.  The
version I got came with the DVD in one of those Linux mags, so I'm not real
sure what the capabilities outside Linux/PC might be.

--McD

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2006 , 2007 only
- Today
- New search...