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'[PIC] Come to the Dark Side (tm) - Free Code Warri'
2006\01\14@173923 by Russell McMahon

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face
Welcome to Freescale Semiconductor...
From: Freescale Semiconductor
Subject: Simplifying 8-bit Product Development


Easy, fast, accessible-that's what our latest CodeWarriorT Development
Studio for HC(S)08 Microcontrollers, v5.0 is all about. With more than
100 sample projects to help you get started, our Fast Track
CodeWarrior tools have been re-architected with an emphasis on
usability.
Create a working project in a few as seven mouse clicks.
Change target microcontrollers and the debug/Flash programming
connection in an open project.
Access product updates and service packs directly from freescale.com.
And that's just for starters. Check it out. The CodeWarrior
Development Studio Special Edition with an optimized 16 KB C compiler
is a free* download. Visit freescale.com/cw5 for your copy.

       http://www.freescale.com/files/abstract/overview/CODEWARRIOR5.html

*Subject to license agreement and registration.

Freescale Semiconductor, Inc. is located at 6501 William Cannon Drive
West, Austin, Texas 78735.

FreescaleT and the Freescale logo are trademarks of Freescale
Semiconductor, Inc. All other product or service names are the
property of their respective owners. This product incorporates
SuperFlash® technology licensed from SST.

©Freescale Semiconductor, Inc. 2006.

2006\01\14@175444 by David VanHorn

picon face
"Dark Side" is an AVR trademark!  :)

2006\01\14@183704 by Spehro Pefhany

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At 11:39 AM 1/15/2006 +1300, you wrote:
>Welcome to Freescale Semiconductor...
>From: Freescale Semiconductor
>Subject: Simplifying 8-bit Product Development
>
>
>Easy, fast, accessible-that's what our latest CodeWarriorT Development
>Studio for HC(S)08 Microcontrollers, v5.0 is all about.

Hi, Russ, does it require FlexLM?

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
->> Inexpensive test equipment & parts http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZspeff


2006\01\14@184613 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <.....25b178740601141454o186b7fb4sa30586dcf3c8f536KILLspamspam@spam@mail.gmail.com>>          David VanHorn <dvanhornspamKILLspammicrobrix.com> wrote:

> "Dark Side" is an AVR trademark!  :)

How true. So is "Six Month Leadtime" :)
Seems AVRs are in perpetually short supply. Maybe they're trying MICROS~1's
"limit demand to drum up interest" trick - thing is, it seems to be having
the opposite effect.

At least PICmicros are still in plentiful supply. I do wish Microchip would
fix the "RB6/7 holddown" bug in the ICD2 though. If the ICD2 is in Programmer
mode and is holding the target in reset, it should be holding RB6 and RB7
low. Thing is, when it releases MCLR, it never Hi-Zs RB6 and RB7 so you get
wonderful contention issues, Vcc mysteriously plummeting and other nastiness.
Unplug the ICD and everything starts working again...

Hence why I need to hack together some form of isolator for RB6/RB7. Problem
is, the few relays I can find have pretty insane power consumption figures
for the drive coil. Actually, I wonder if a 4066 would be suitable as a
replacement...

--
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
.....philpemKILLspamspam.....dsl.pipex.com              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook
... Answers: $1, Short: $5, Correct: $25, dumb looks are still free.

2006\01\14@185854 by Roy

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part 1 330 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

Hi Russell,

This looks interesting because of the free C compiler.

What is the cheapest / best programmer options for the HC08 chips?




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2006\01\14@193050 by David VanHorn

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On 1/14/06, Philip Pemberton <EraseMEphilpemspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> In message <25b178740601141454o186b7fb4sa30586dcf3c8f536spamspam_OUTmail.gmail.com>> >          David VanHorn <@spam@dvanhornKILLspamspammicrobrix.com> wrote:
>
> > "Dark Side" is an AVR trademark!  :)
>
> How true. So is "Six Month Leadtime" :)
> Seems AVRs are in perpetually short supply.


Hmm. I haven't had problems getting them.

2006\01\14@194356 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/15/06, Russell McMahon <KILLspamruslKILLspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> Welcome to Freescale Semiconductor...
> From: Freescale Semiconductor
> Subject: Simplifying 8-bit Product Development
>

I was given the 16KB version (an older version) last year and
I did not switch to the dark side. ;-) I was also given an ICD
to start up the research. Today I use this ICD to supply 5V
to my Wisp628A. ;-)

The HC908 is not good at all: the single problem to rule out
in my project is the current consumption.

The HCS908 is better. But the range of product is very limited.

The CodeWarrior compiler is huge. I've not tried it though.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\14@194556 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/15/06, David VanHorn <RemoveMEdvanhornTakeThisOuTspammicrobrix.com> wrote:
> On 1/14/06, Philip Pemberton <spamBeGonephilpemspamBeGonespamdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > > "Dark Side" is an AVR trademark!  :)
> >
> > How true. So is "Six Month Leadtime" :)
> > Seems AVRs are in perpetually short supply.
>
> Hmm. I haven't had problems getting them.

Very small or very big buyers will not have problems. It is those
in the middle (10s of thousand) who have the problem.

AVR has been banned in the new design in my company.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\14@214306 by Shawn Wilton

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That's funny, because most of the companies I have had experience with, and
my previous university use them exclusively...  And we're talking about big
companies..

On 1/14/06, Xiaofan Chen <TakeThisOuTxiaofancEraseMEspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\01\14@215526 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/15/06, Shawn Wilton <EraseMEblack9spamgmail.com> wrote:
> That's funny, because most of the companies I have had experience with, and
> my previous university use them exclusively...  And we're talking about big
> companies..
>

AVR was used almost exclusively by my colleagues in Germany and they
are still being used in the existing designs. However for new designs, the
component manager has issued a ban because of availability problem.
The problem has been always there but last year it became so bad that
the ban was issued.

In Singapore, AVR was banned quite sometime ago when they obsoleted
almost all parts (AVR 90S).

How can you deal with such a company like Atmel? The AVR is a good
MCU but in the wrong hand.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\14@215822 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/15/06, Spehro Pefhany <RemoveMEspeffEraseMEspamEraseMEinterlog.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, Russ, does it require FlexLM?

The 16K version I had before does not need FlexLM, just a license
file. I think the latest version should not need FlexLM either.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\14@233831 by Roy

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part 1 491 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

Hi Russell,

Is there an FTP download site for code warrior?

Is there a forum on the code warrior that I can access to gauge support
/ problems for the product similar to PIClist?

Do you have you used this product yourself and there chips, what is your
opinion on them?

Roy
Tauranga
New Zealand


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2006\01\15@000935 by Xiaofan Chen

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On 1/15/06, Roy <RemoveMEroy.hspam_OUTspamKILLspamihug.co.nz> wrote:

> Is there an FTP download site for code warrior?
>
> Is there a forum on the code warrior that I can access to gauge support
> / problems for the product similar to PIClist?
>

The site is up but the file is huge. It is 311MB and I am not so sure if
I can downloaded it. You can actually get it from the distributor.

There is a forum called freegeeks.net.
http://www.freegeeks.net/

I have not used any Freescale MCU though. We have some old
product still using the 68HC05 CAN controller but they are very
expensive now.

>From what I learned from the distributors, Freescale knows that
they are already far behind Microchip in the 8-bit market and they are
trying very hard to push HC08 and HCS08. Microchip is different,
they are far ahead in the 16-bit market so they are pusing dsPIC
and PIC24 to achieve their ambitious goal to be a 2 Billion company
in the near future.

The price is okay. The development tools are in general more
expensive but they are catching up though.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\15@062821 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
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>>From what I learned from the distributors, Freescale knows that
> they are already far behind Microchip in the 8-bit market and they
> are
> trying very hard to push HC08 and HCS08. Microchip is different,
> they are far ahead in the 16-bit market so they are pusing dsPIC
> and PIC24 to achieve their ambitious goal to be a 2 Billion company
> in the near future.
>
> The price is okay. The development tools are in general more
> expensive but they are catching up though.


I have a friend who is reasonably knowledgeable on industry directions
and every time I send him any Microchip 'ra ra' material, while he is
heavily committed in other areas, he recites the same basic mantra -
ie 'ARM is it, the whole world is going to ARM, the future is an ARM
future, those who are not already on the ARM bandwagon are in danger
of missing the future, ...' .

Thoughts?

(I've BCC'd this to him).


       RM

2006\01\15@064929 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/15/06, Xiaofan Chen <RemoveMExiaofancTakeThisOuTspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/15/06, Roy <EraseMEroy.hspamspamspamBeGoneihug.co.nz> wrote:
> I have not used any Freescale MCU though. We have some old
> product still using the 68HC05 CAN controller but they are very
> expensive now.
>
> From what I learned from the distributors, Freescale knows that
> they are already far behind Microchip in the 8-bit market and they are
> trying very hard to push HC08 and HCS08. Microchip is different,
> they are far ahead in the 16-bit market so they are pusing dsPIC
> and PIC24 to achieve their ambitious goal to be a 2 Billion company
> in the near future.

Sorry there is a typo in the above. It should have been:
"Microchip is different, they are far ahead in the 8-bit market but they
are not so strong in the 16-bit maket so they are pusing dsPIC and
PIC24 to achieve their ambitious goal to be a 2 Billion company
in the near future."

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\15@065427 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/15/06, Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechKILLspamspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> I have a friend who is reasonably knowledgeable on industry directions
> and every time I send him any Microchip 'ra ra' material, while he is
> heavily committed in other areas, he recites the same basic mantra -
> ie 'ARM is it, the whole world is going to ARM, the future is an ARM
> future, those who are not already on the ARM bandwagon are in danger
> of missing the future, ...' .
>
> Thoughts?
>
> (I've BCC'd this to him).

I think he might be correct and PIC24/dsPIC may not be able to
compete well with low end ARM in the 16bit/32bit market.

Maybe Higher-end 8-bit market will lose to low end ARM as well.
It will take time though.

Still in the 8-bit market, PIC and MCS51 clones will rule. How long
will it take to get a 6-pin or 8-pin ARM MCU? ;-)

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\15@074342 by Mike Harrison

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On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 00:28:25 +1300, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

ARM is a great architecture, but will never compete with the lower-end PIC16 parts as they will
always be inherently significantly more expensive due to die area. We will never see a general
purpose 8 pin ARM  - only Smartcards will use low pin-count ARMs
I'm sure you could probably derive a formula based on the ratio of core size to memory size that
would show the optimum core size for given application scale.

8 bit MCUs will always be cheaper than 16/32 bit where core size is a significant part of the cost.
If a chip has a ton of memory, a 32 bit core won't use much more percentage of the die as a whole if
the majority of the die is the memory. Conversely, if there's only 1K flash, the core is a very
significant part of the die area and so its size is crucial to cost.

An ARM with 1K of flash would be silly. Ditto a PIC16 with 1M...!

However I can see the higher end PIC18 and MegaAVR end of the market being increasingly under
attack.

2006\01\15@084022 by kravnus wolf

picon face
FreeScale "Official" development tools are expensive!
I don't see one for students....... Are they
serious in competing with Microchip?


John

--- Xiaofan Chen <xiaofancSTOPspamspamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\01\15@090507 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/15/06, kravnus wolf <KILLspamkravnusspamBeGonespamyahoo.com> wrote:
> FreeScale "Official" development tools are expensive!
> I don't see one for students....... Are they
> serious in competing with Microchip?
>

I guess they are very serious since I have met quite some
distributors trying to push for HC908. ;-)

I know they hire one of the top engineer from Microchip China. ;-)

Their price is also very competitive compared to Microchip.

There are some new tools (similar to ICD1/ICD2) available now
quite good price. For example, one of the previous regional
manager of Microchip has developed an ICD tool for HC908 and
it only costs US$49.

The URL is here:
http://www.hensetech.com.hk/devtools_e.htm

http://www.freegeeks.net/ also has some links.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\15@094842 by Ling SM

picon face


kravnus wolf wrote:
> FreeScale "Official" development tools are expensive!
> I don't see one for students....... Are they
> serious in competing with Microchip?

HC development tool is not so expensive, check their website. But their
buying process can cost 100 times more than the hardware.

They have some tie up with Future here which is extremely painful to
deal with:

1.  Over here, you have to send in a purchase order before order (no
visa, or click n buy)
2.  Fax over a copy of your payment check
3.  Then they enter your order if they want to help before cashing your
check
4.  You post the check
5.  They cash your check
6.  You wait for order to arrive (can be 2-3 week)
7.  If the check is delayed in the mail, your order shall wait and wait.

The best part is if they made a mistake and send you a wrong part:
1.  After you inform them about it
2.  They will try to wear you out
3.  2 months later when you remind them about it, they will try to ask
if you want to swap
4.  By then, you would probably want to return, they will ask you to
wait for a few more weeks for approval for your request to return.
5.  And if your return is approved, you will be told that you would need
to return to their office, and you would only be paid if their warehouse
verify everything is intact and OK before they can process to refund you.

I did not proceed further than step 5 as it was such a time drag.
Freescale with/and Future, I just can't feel or see any future for
either of them.

Ling SM

2006\01\15@125643 by Peter

picon face

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006, Russell McMahon wrote:

> Thoughts?

I am not an analyst but my opinion is that anything that does not scale
easily to 16-32x its current size, is not second courced and widely
available, will be a niche within a year or a few. That would be
anything that uses paging or banking or complicated upgrade paths or is
a moving target architecture-wise, or has hard-to-get design tools. The
ARM is an old design with a lot of potential that has now been
integrated into single chip units. MIPS is in the same class with ARM (a
little higher usually). What with Internet-enabled water taps and
curtains this is practically a requirement. Archaic architectures (like
MCS51) survive by inertia and low cost. Also as the price pressure
increases, silicon area begins to play a major role and RISC will always
win out in such contests. ARM and MIPS are RISC.

With the new ethernet chips, the older architectures will have some air
to breathe, but not for long. The second question a client would ask
after having squeezed an interactive web server into a PIC would likely
be 'does it do DHCP and can we manage it via SNMP' ? Or 'can I connect
it to a DSL modem directly' ? ARM and MIPS can do that sort of thing
now.

Peter

2006\01\15@201007 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Jan 15, 2006, at 5:40 AM, kravnus wolf wrote:

> FreeScale "Official" development tools are expensive!
> I don't see one for students....... Are they
> serious in competing with Microchip?

Traditionally, motorola/freescale has offered the same sort
of free tools as microchip.  Assembler, simulator, etc.  They
seem to be increasingly difficult to find on the freescale website
as they push the CodeWarrior tools instead, of they are still there.
I think:
http://www.pemicro.com/index.cfm?targetURL=http://www.pemicro.com/ics08/

BillW

2006\01\15@213637 by kravnus wolf

picon face
Simulators are quite okay with motorola but why no
cheaper
development programmer with multiple motorola MCU
support?
With PIC we have ICD2 and PICStart + from Microchip.

Of course we have other unofficial programmer easyisp,
wisp and etc. Almost all of them support more
than a dozen PICs. Sometimes it is puzzling with
motorola
incentive...


John

--- William Chops Westfield <EraseMEwestfwspamEraseMEmac.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

http://www.pemicro.com/index.cfm?targetURL=http://www.pemicro.com/ics08/
>
> BillW
>
> --

2006\01\15@220153 by kravnus wolf

picon face
XiaoFan,

Why banned in your co?

--- Xiaofan Chen <@spam@xiaofanc@spam@spamspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\01\15@234353 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 1/16/06, kravnus wolf <TakeThisOuTkravnus.....spamTakeThisOuTyahoo.com> wrote:
> XiaoFan,
>
>  Why banned in your co?
>
AVR is banned because of two problems:
1) parts obsolet too fast.
2) serious delivery problem.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\01\16@003757 by kravnus wolf

picon face
In that case(1) I won't use Atmel.

John

--- Xiaofan Chen <TakeThisOuTxiaofancKILLspamspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\01\16@032526 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 15, 2006, at 6:36 PM, kravnus wolf wrote:

> why no cheaper development programmer with multiple motorola MCU
> support?

I'm pretty sure almost all of the Mot chips have a built-in download
and program mode; connect up the right crystal and set the pins
appropriately, and they'll download standard serial protocols and
stuff it into flash...  "no need for a real programmer."  (hah!)

BillW

2006\01\16@032920 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Jan 15, 2006, at 9:37 PM, kravnus wolf wrote:

> In that case(1) I won't use Atmel.
>>>
>> AVR is banned because of two problems:
>> 1) parts obsolet too fast.
>>
The parts that were obsoleted were replace with chips with very
similar characteristics.  Sort as if microchip has gotten rid of
the 16F84 when they announced the 16F628, instead of keeping all
the old chips around to order forever.  Annoying, especially if
you're manufacturing-oriented, but not as bad as trying to replace
an iAPX432... :-)

BillW

2006\01\16@042516 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> The parts that were obsoleted were replace with chips with very
> similar characteristics.  Sort as if microchip has gotten rid of
> the 16F84 when they announced the 16F628, instead of keeping all
> the old chips around to order forever.

That's exactly what Mirochip does. Some of us would like them to drop
the 16F84 so we need no longer discuss whether it is a good or a bad
start for newbies, but I think a manufacturer who still uses it in a
product will be very glad that he can still produce with the (good?) old
chip.

> Annoying, especially if
> you're manufacturing-oriented, but not as bad as trying to replace
> an iAPX432... :-)

The 3-chip Ada engine? Did anyone actually *use* it???

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\01\16@045042 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>At least PICmicros are still in plentiful supply. I do wish
>Microchip would fix the "RB6/7 holddown" bug in the ICD2
>though. If the ICD2 is in Programmer mode and is holding the
>target in reset, it should be holding RB6 and RB7 low.
>Thing is, when it releases MCLR, it never Hi-Zs RB6 and RB7
>so you get wonderful contention issues, Vcc mysteriously
>plummeting and other nastiness.
>Unplug the ICD and everything starts working again...

I suspect that the holding of RB6 & 7 is a legacy of it also being a debug
tool. You set the micro running, and then when it reaches a breakpoint it
talks to the ICD. However one would also have thought that this would also
require the lines to be tristated by the ICD, so the micro can wiggle them.

2006\01\16@122757 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 1/15/06, Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechspamspamBeGoneparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> I have a friend who is reasonably knowledgeable on industry directions
> and every time I send him any Microchip 'ra ra' material, while he is
> heavily committed in other areas, he recites the same basic mantra -
> ie 'ARM is it, the whole world is going to ARM, the future is an ARM
> future, those who are not already on the ARM bandwagon are in danger
> of missing the future, ...' .
>
> Thoughts?

Well, I was surprised to find that I can get decent ARM MCUs (ie, add
a crystal, a few caps and it works) for under $10 in one-offs (atmel
AT917S series).  They are cheaper than higher-end MSP430s.  Have a
bunch of memory, fast, lots of built in goodies, etc.

Still not reasonable for the $20 thermostat market, but good for the
$80 internet enabled thermostat market, for instance.

There will always be a niche for 8 bit MCUs, just as there is still a
surprisingly large niche for 4 bit MCUs (you may be wearing one...).
As things compress downward (32 processors for $10, 16 bits for $5, 8
bits for $2, 4 bits - dime a dozen) the smaller processors will still
be attractive in those markets where cost is the utmost concern.
Notice that the things we buy are getting cheaper and cheaper for more
features.

But your friend has a point - ARM really is a huge part of the MPU/MCU
world, and it's hard to find a 32 bit competitior to ARM.  If your
project is sitting in that space, then ARM better be a consideration.
I suspect that ARM is trying to push its products down into the 16 bit
and 8 bit space to take advantage of the huge market and those
embedded designers that would rather work with an architecture similar
to today's PCs.  What ARM really needs ot do, though, is develop
standard ARM footprints and feature sets for about a dozen variants so
the processor becomes a commodity while the architecture remains
proprietary.  This will give many companies more reason to use it
since there will be second sources, and cheaper more competetive
parts.

-Adam

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