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PICList Thread
'[PIC]:Need help programming a 16F676'
2003\05\04@160137 by Mike105105

picon face
Hello everyone...I am a n00b and need some help.  I am using one of those
parallel port programmers and just can't seem to find software that supports
the 676.  I know Picall can be setup for newer chips, but I am unsure of the
data that I would need to enter in the config file.  Any help would be
greatly appreciated as I just recently found  out how great these little
PIC's are and I cant wait to make a few projects :-)


Mike Hillpot

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2003\05\04@170739 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> Hello everyone...I am a n00b and need some help.  I am using one of those
> parallel port programmers and just can't seem to find software
> that supports
> the 676.  I know Picall can be setup for newer chips, but I am
> unsure of the
> data that I would need to enter in the config file.  Any help would be
> greatly appreciated as I just recently found  out how great these little
> PIC's are and I cant wait to make a few projects :-)

       Try IC-Prog: http://www.ic-prog.com/index1.htm
       They list the 676 as now supported. TTYL

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2003\05\04@171146 by

flavicon
face
When I started with PIC's last summer, I soon found
the programmer from Wouter van Ooijen
(http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/index.html), and that
programmer really helped me getting started easily
with the PIC's.

Parsonaly, I prefer a serial port programmer (with
some "inteligence" in the programmer) over the
parallel variants. From what I have seen, the
parallel programmers sometimes has a harder time
to comply to the programming timing of the chips.
More so with the newer chips with more complex
programming algoritms (such as "page" modes). This is
only a personal reflection and might not be true
with all parallel programmers...

Well, didn't help much with your current programmer :-)

Jan-Erik.



spam_OUTMike105105TakeThisOuTspamAOL.COM wrote:
>Hello everyone...I am a n00b and need some help.  I am using one of those
>parallel port programmers and just can't seem to find software that supports
>the 676.  I know Picall can be setup for newer chips, but I am unsure of the
>data that I would need to enter in the config file.  Any help would be
>greatly appreciated as I just recently found  out how great these little
>PIC's are and I cant wait to make a few projects :-)
>
>Mike Hillpot

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2003\05\04@171601 by

flavicon
face
Another thing, it might help to know with of
"those parallel port programmers" you are using...
Or maybe they are all more or less the same ?
Jan-Erik.

.....Mike105105KILLspamspam@spam@AOL.COM wrote:
>Hello everyone...I am a n00b and need some help.  I am using one of those
>parallel port programmers and just can't seem to find software that supports
>the 676.  I know Picall can be setup for newer chips, but I am unsure of the
>data that I would need to enter in the config file.  Any help would be
>greatly appreciated as I just recently found  out how great these little
>PIC's are and I cant wait to make a few projects :-)
>
>Mike Hillpot

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2003\05\04@180201 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> When I started with PIC's last summer, I soon found
> the programmer from Wouter van Ooijen
> (http://www.voti.nl/wisp628/index.html), and that
> programmer really helped me getting started easily
> with the PIC's.
>
> Parsonaly, I prefer a serial port programmer (with
> some "inteligence" in the programmer) over the
> parallel variants. From what I have seen, the
> parallel programmers sometimes has a harder time
> to comply to the programming timing of the chips.
> More so with the newer chips with more complex
> programming algoritms (such as "page" modes). This is
> only a personal reflection and might not be true
> with all parallel programmers...

       I disagree. "intelligent" programmers require you to wait for new firmware
to support a new part, plus new software. Parallel port versions (and serial
port versions with no smarts) just need a software update. Of course, for
production a smart programmer is a must IMHO, also "smart" programmers can
possibly be quicker. For hobbyists though I think a parallel port programmer
is much easier to keep "up to date". TTYL

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2003\05\04@183348 by Mike105105

picon face
Yeah I tried that one...the 676 is in ver 1.05b...the only version on their site is 1.05a, and no where in the software can I find the 676...


Mike Hillpot

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2003\05\04@183804 by erholm (QAC)

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face
You tried what?
Why cut the reference to what you are answering to ?
Jan-Erik.

PS.
And use your ENTER key now and then to keep your lines
below 70-75 chars :-)
DS.



Mike105105spamKILLspamAOL.COM wrote:

> Yeah I tried that one...the 676 is in ver 1.05b...the only
> version on their site is 1.05a, and no where in the software
> can I find the 676...

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2003\05\04@184557 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>         I disagree. "intelligent" programmers require you to
> wait for new firmware
> to support a new part, plus new software. Parallel port
> versions (and serial
> port versions with no smarts) just need a software update. Of
> course, for
> production a smart programmer is a must IMHO, also "smart"
> programmers can
> possibly be quicker. For hobbyists though I think a parallel
> port programmer
> is much easier to keep "up to date". TTYL

That is true for the Wisp628 JE was talking about (and probably for most
other SP programmers too), but I recall that at least one (probably
USB-bsed?) intelligent programmer can have its firmware updated on the
fly, which cobines the best of both worlds.

BTW could anyone give me a timing for programming a modern PIC, let's
say a full 18F242, with a parallel port (non-intelligent serial port)
programmer, using a "hw-protected" windows like NT or XP? I would guess
this the point where a non-intelligent programmer realy loses.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\05\04@185219 by

flavicon
face
(I begun writing a reply about "firmware" also being
"software", and why you'd have to "wait for new firmware"
in one case and "just need a software update" in another,
and that the little more "intelligent" programmers
tend to have a little better support, but never mind...)

:-)

Jan-Erik.

Herbert Graf wrote:
> I disagree. "intelligent" programmers require you to wait for new firmware
> to support a new part, plus new software. Parallel port versions (and serial
> port versions with no smarts) just need a software update. Of course, for
> production a smart programmer is a must IMHO, also "smart" programmers can
> possibly be quicker. For hobbyists though I think a parallel port programmer
> is much easier to keep "up to date". TTYL

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2003\05\04@190252 by Igor Pokorny

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Wouter, I considered, by some measurement (using basical Windows
subroutines) that NT or Win 2000 is totally useless in this region...Timing
can differ about 100 per cent or more from time to time. I use an old 485
based computer with Dos for such things, but it's difiicult to do such
advice for newbees...
Igor

{Original Message removed}

2003\05\04@191747 by Mike105105

picon face
Hahaha....sorry about that, I tried IC-Prog: <A HREF="http://www.ic-prog.com/index1.htm">
http://www.ic-prog.com/index1.htm</A>.
I thought that the message I was replying to would be quoted...I was wrong
:-)
Anyways, like I said supposedly the 676 is supported by ver 1.05b, but they
only have 1.05a on the website....

P.S.  I am now hitting enter at the end of each line....sorry about that.


Mike Hillpot

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2003\05\04@192753 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Wouter, I considered, by some measurement (using basical Windows
> subroutines) that NT or Win 2000 is totally useless in this
> region...Timing
> can differ about 100 per cent or more from time to time. I
> use an old 485
> based computer with Dos for such things, but it's difiicult to do such
> advice for newbees...

For the newer PICs which write very fast I would expect the timing for a
programming that bit-bangs the programming from the PC to be an order of
magnitude worse than for a programmer that just gets the data from the
PC, so even when measurements vary by 100% they would still be
interesting.

And I hope you don't mean to say that every newbie must keep and old
(485-based, where on earth did you find that off-by-one beast ;) ) PC
around just to program PICs!

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\05\04@231548 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
> >         I disagree. "intelligent" programmers require you to
> > wait for new firmware
> > to support a new part, plus new software. Parallel port
> > versions (and serial
> > port versions with no smarts) just need a software update. Of
> > course, for
> > production a smart programmer is a must IMHO, also "smart"
> > programmers can
> > possibly be quicker. For hobbyists though I think a parallel
> > port programmer
> > is much easier to keep "up to date". TTYL
>
> That is true for the Wisp628 JE was talking about (and probably for most
> other SP programmers too), but I recall that at least one (probably
> USB-bsed?) intelligent programmer can have its firmware updated on the
> fly, which cobines the best of both worlds.

       But again, you are tied to the hardware maker to give you updated firmware,
I don't like being tied down like that, as a hobbiest. My parallel port
programmer (the Davit Tait serial one) is so simple that there is no
modification needed for a newer pic, just wire a new adapter. The only thing
I have to worry about is software support, and IC-Prog has so far been very
"modern" in it's support. The best thing is if IC-Prog doesn't fill my need
there are several other options out there. You just can't get that
"universal" ability with "smart" hardware. TTYL

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2003\05\04@231550 by Herbert Graf

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face
> Anyways, like I said supposedly the 676 is supported by ver
> 1.05b, but they
> only have 1.05a on the website....

       1.05b is beta, try leaving a message in the forum to get a copy. TTYL

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2003\05\05@004129 by Mike105105

picon face
In a message dated 5/4/2003 7:32:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, .....wouterKILLspamspam.....VOTI.NL
writes:

> And I hope you don't mean to say that every newbie must keep and old
> (485-based, where on earth did you find that off-by-one beast ;) ) PC
> around just to program PICs!
>
Hahaha...I mght be in good shape then...I have a few XT's, 286's, 386's and
486's
piled in the corner...


Mike Hillpot

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2003\05\05@025551 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>         But again, you are tied to the hardware maker to give
> you updated firmware,
> I don't like being tied down like that, as a hobbiest. My
> parallel port
> programmer (the Davit Tait serial one) is so simple that there is no
> modification needed for a newer pic, just wire a new adapter.
> The only thing
> I have to worry about is software support, and IC-Prog has so
> far been very
> "modern" in it's support. The best thing is if IC-Prog
> doesn't fill my need
> there are several other options out there. You just can't get that
> "universal" ability with "smart" hardware. TTYL

Can't argue with that. But AFAIK the common 'intelligent' programmers
(for instance WarpNN, my Wisp628) now support 12F, 16F630, 18F819, and
the 18F's. I hope for you ic-prog does support those chips (does it?),
but how many of the other free parallel-port software parts are already
at that level of support?

And BTW: the Wisp628 firmware is free (including source!), roughly on
the condition that you don't use it to sell Wisp628's, and the xwisp PC
software is GPL. So when you are not satisfied with the level of support
I provide you can change it to fit your needs. Most parallel-port
software does not offer this possibility (at least the most important
ones, ic-prog and ponyprog, do not).

And I am still interested in the performance of the bit-banged
programmers. A test that is designed to make them look bad: how long
does it take to erase a 12F (including restoring the calibration
instruction)?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2003\05\05@085932 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> And I am still interested in the performance of the bit-banged
> programmers. A test that is designed to make them look bad: how long
> does it take to erase a 12F (including restoring the calibration
> instruction)?

I don't know about bit banged programmers.  Below are benchmark results of
my own programmer.  It talks to the host via serial line with some of the
low level operations handled by an on-board 16F628.  All times were
measured on the host.  The programming time is the total elapsed time to
erase the entire part, program a full HEX file containing randomly
generated data for all of program and data memory, then perform a verify
pass at each of the Vdd limits.  Calibration constants are preserved as
appropriate.  The verify time is the elapsed time to read all the data
from the chip at two separate voltage levels and compare each result with
the data from the HEX file.

     PIC   Program time (sec)   Verify time (sec)
 -------   ------------------   -----------------
  12F629                 12.9                 2.8
  16F628                 23.7                 5.0
  16F877                 55.8                18.3
  18F452                 36.3                18.3
 18F1320                 18.0                 8.6


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(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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