Post by thread:[PIC]: Voice synthesis

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'[PIC]: Voice synthesis'
2001\04\18@131850 by Chris Pringle

I heard in another conversation of Voice synthesis. What is the chip that does this? How much is it? Are there any good web sites on doing such a thing. I've been wondering how you do this for ages, mostly, how you store the data! Thanks in advance. --- Regards, Chris Pringle Administrator of "The Linux Site" http://thelinuxsite.sourceforge.net -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2001\04\18@151855 by Drew Vassallo

>I heard in another conversation of Voice synthesis. What is the chip that >does this? How much is it? Are there any good web sites on doing such a >thing. I've been wondering how you do this for ages, mostly, how you store >the data! Information Storage Devices (http://www.isd.com) has nice ICs for use in voice record/playback applications. I've used them... they are very simple to use and produce quality sound. It stores the data in "rows" by sampling from a microphone input at rates up to ~9KHz and some of their chips can store several minutes' worth of voice samples. You can queue up any particular message by loading the "row" at which to begin playback into the address buffer. (Actually, I think there are technically 4 rows per address, but they are only a few milliseconds apart so it doesn't make much difference.) In terms of *synthesizing* sounds, I know there are some out there that can produce a number of different tones, sounds, etc. but I'm not sure about actually *creating* voice patterns and words. Of course, it depends on what you mean by 'synthesizing'. If you mean "creating on its own", then I don't know of any. If you mean "reproducing from pre-recorded voice" then the ISD is the one for you. --Andrew _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2001\04\20@040424 by Peter L. Peres

There was no talk about synthesis recently afaik, but of storage/playback. A voice synthesis that (was) is popular is SPO256. It works with an EPROM that contains word->phoneme libraries and requires a low data rate. The record/playback chips are easier to use and made by ISD. At least one person on this list has made a recorder/player using a PIC and a PC (for data processing). I think it was Olin Lathorp. Phoneme based synthesis should be in range for a 877 or stronger PIC perhaps with some externally stored wavetable phonemes instead of a proper realtime synthesiser. Just for perspective, there exists a PC program that runs on 8088 (!), is about 20K in size and does english text to voice conversion in realtime (without a math processor). It's ancient and public domain too. I've made a talking DVM using a laptop and an A/D measuring card some time ago for my own use, using this program. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2001\04\21@023809 by Michael Pont

Peter, > > Just for perspective, there exists a PC program that runs on 8088 (!), is > about 20K in size and does english text to voice conversion in realtime > (without a math processor). It's ancient and public domain too. I've made > a talking DVM using a laptop and an A/D measuring card some time ago for > my own use, using this program. > Can you tell us where to find the 8088 program? Best wishes, Michael. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@061617 by Chris Pringle

Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? --- Regards, Chris Pringle Web http://www.latrigg.demon.co.uk Rating www.h-2k.co.uk/hexuser/showuser.asp?id=163 IM cpringleUKKILLspamhotmail.com {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@062247 by David Liske

Hi, : Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? Nah, you're just showing how young you are! :-) It's an *ancient* (pre-x86) Intel microprocessor. It was around when I was at DeVry/Columbus learning 8085 assembler language in 1984. David Liske Microsoft HTML Help MVP since 1999 http://mvps.org/htmlhelpcenter/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@082750 by Drew Vassallo

>: Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? > >Nah, you're just showing how young you are! :-) It's an *ancient* (pre-x86) >Intel microprocessor. It was around when I was at DeVry/Columbus learning >8085 assembler language in 1984. Since when is 1984 "ancient"?? Oh man, do I feel old. Punch-cards anyone? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@120642 by Olin Lathrop

> Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? It's an 8 bit bus version of the 8086, which was one of the first commercially available 16 bit microprocessors. The 8086 was the 8080 architecture extended to 16 bits wide, which was the 4040 architecture extended to 8 bits wide. The 4040 was an enhanced version of the 4004, the world's first microprocessor. The 8086/8088 is also the direct ancestor of today's Pentium line. After the 8086, Intel named these processors the 80x86, with the X incremented each new generation. The 32 bit architecture required by today's operating systems like Windows NT appeared first on the 80386. When Intel got to the 80586 they found some weeny had deliberately trademarked that name just for that purpose. Instead of paying off the weeny, Intel renamed the 80586 to the Pentium. Newer generations are currently named with a roman numeral following the Pentium name. The Pentium-III is therefore what would have otherwise been the 80786 had the original naming scheme been preserved. I may have a few model number details garbled, but that is generally the gist of it. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, olinspam_OUTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@121506 by Chris Pringle

Wow, I never knew any of that. So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? --- Regards, Chris Pringle Web http://www.latrigg.demon.co.uk Rating www.h-2k.co.uk/hexuser/showuser.asp?id=163 IM KILLspamcpringleUKKILLspamhotmail.com {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@123619 by Dale Botkin

On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Chris Pringle wrote: > Wow, I never knew any of that. > So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need > EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? Yes, 8088's are still available. They can do anything an 8086 can do... which is to say, most of what a Pentium-III can do, but without the memory management (and way slower). 1MB physical address limit, segmented into 64K banks. The chip is a CPU, not an MPU, and has no internal ROM, EPROM, RAM, peripheral functions, or anything other than the processor itself. So no, you ca't use it as a single-chip embedded processor, but I've seen designs with as few as 3 40-pin packages. It's more suited to larger and more complex embedded tasks or general-purpose computers -- the IBM PC & XT used the 8088, as did many other systems. Dale --- The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." -- Isaac Asimov -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@123828 by Michael Pont

For a new 80x86-based embedded system, I suggest you look at something like the 80188 (widely available). Try the Intel WWW site if you really want to pursue this. [The 80x86 (like all the 80x86s) is a microprocessor, while the PICs (and 8051, etc) are microcontrollers. Essentially, the difference is that the microprocessor needs several external components (like memory) to do anything useful. Try Arcom (etc) for suitable boards.] The main advantage of the 80x86 family, from the developers point of view, is that you can use 'desktop' compilers (like Borland C) to program this family. This can help some people (depending on their background) development 80x86 applications more quickly than - say - an equivalent PIC application. (This is probably a lot more than you wanted to know...) Michael. Michael J. Pont http://www.le.ac.uk/engineering/mjp9/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Pringle <spamBeGonecpringlespamBeGoneLATRIGG.DEMON.CO.UK> To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [PIC]: Voice synthesis {Quote hidden}> Wow, I never knew any of that. > So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need > EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? > > --- > Regards, > Chris Pringle > Web http://www.latrigg.demon.co.uk > Rating www.h-2k.co.uk/hexuser/showuser.asp?id=163 > IM RemoveMEcpringleUKTakeThisOuThotmail.com > > > {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@124320 by David Liske

: So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need : EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? For an actual design and troubleshooting system, see http://www.sunequipco.com/Microprocessor/p1.htm. I wasn't aware they were still made at all (my 8088 textbook has a 1984 copyright), but apparently they are. The author of my textbook is still teaching along the same lines. His class notes are at http://www.devrycols.edu/facstaff/bbeet387n1.pdf, and he writes: "The 80188EB is a powervul embedded version of the 8088 microprocessor". He also discusses the features of the 80188EB on the same page. David Liske Microsoft HTML Help MVP since 1999 http://mvps.org/htmlhelpcenter/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@133823 by goflo

Chris Pringle wrote: > > Wow, I never knew any of that. > So, can you still buy 8088s? Sure. Jameco, for one, has them for $2.95/5 Mhz and $5.95/8 Mhz if you need a screamer :) > And, if so, what can they do? Do you need > EPROMS for memory? Yes, you need external memory RAM/PROM/whatever. > Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? Sort of - A PIC is a stand-alone computer on a chip. 8088 is a processor only - You need external memory, clock, i/o, ... All included on board microcontrollers like Pix. I notice they also have from the same era, 8085 & 80C85 - The processor used in the original laptops of yore, the Tandy/NEC/Kyocera/Olivetti/... 8085s are fun to play with, and believe it or not still have some serious uses because it's relatively "rad-hard". The Mars Rover used one as a controller, for instance. I use a NEC laptop for debugging - It's got a nice async serial port and a big display, runs 20+ hours on a set of batteries - One of these days I'm going to get ambitious and set it up as a PIC pgmr. (Tracy Allen has probably already done it :) regards, Jack -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@135734 by Neil Bradley

> : Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? > Nah, you're just showing how young you are! :-) It's an *ancient* (pre-x86) > Intel microprocessor. It's not pre-x86. It's an 8 bit external data bus version of the 8086. But it is ancient. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Toda su base es pertenece a nosotros. Nadie instÃ Synthcom Systems, Inc. ¡lenos la bomba! MuÃ©vase, Zig! ICQ #29402898 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@142129 by David Liske

: It's not pre-x86. It's an 8 bit external data bus version of the 8086. But : it is ancient. http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/8086.HTM: "Intel introduced the 8086 and 8088 microprocessor extensions to the 8080 product line in 1979." http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/80186.HTM: "Intel continued the evolution of the 8086 and 8088 by introducing the 80186 and 80188." http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/80286.HTM: "In 1982, Intel introduced the 80286." See also: http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/hof_main.htm Sorry, but the thing looks to be pre-x86 from here ... ;-) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@143623 by Sean H. Breheny

I think the confusion is over the term "x86". The poster who wrote "it's not pre-x86" considers "x86" to include the 8086. Apparently you, David, consider "x86" to only include those processors 186 and higher. Since "x86" is usually intended to indicate the family of processors which can all run at least the 8086 instructions, I would think that "x86" should include the 8086 (x=0 in this case) and therefore, the 8088 would not be pre-x86. Sean At 02:19 PM 4/21/01 -0400, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>: It's not pre-x86. It's an 8 bit external data bus version of the 8086. But >: it is ancient. > >http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/8086.HTM: >"Intel introduced the 8086 and 8088 microprocessor extensions to the 8080 >product line in 1979." > >http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/80186.HTM: >"Intel continued the evolution of the 8086 and 8088 by introducing the 80186 >and 80188." > >http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/80286.HTM: >"In 1982, Intel introduced the 80286." > >See also: http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/hof_main.htm > >Sorry, but the thing looks to be pre-x86 from here ... ;-) > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList >RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@144503 by David Liske

: I think the confusion is over the term "x86". The poster who wrote "it's : not pre-x86" considers "x86" to include the 8086. Apparently you, David, : consider "x86" to only include those processors 186 and higher. : Since "x86" : is usually intended to indicate the family of processors which can all run : at least the 8086 instructions, I would think that "x86" should : include the : 8086 (x=0 in this case) and therefore, the 8088 would not be pre-x86. Ah ... gotcha, Sean. I sit corrected. :-) David Liske Microsoft HTML Help MVP since 1999 http://mvps.org/htmlhelpcenter/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@145327 by Neil Bradley

> : It's not pre-x86. It's an 8 bit external data bus version of the 8086. But > : it is ancient. > http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/8086.HTM: > "Intel introduced the 8086 and 8088 microprocessor extensions to the 8080 > product line in 1979." That's a misleading statement. The 8086 (developed before the 8088) is a completely different chip. The only thing similar to the 8080 and it is the mnemonics and flag register, and even that's a stretch. The opcodes and architecture are completely different. The 8086 (which came before the 8088) was designed to have an instruction set that would be easy to port 8080 code from, though it's still a lot of work. Nice in theory, but had a lot of snags, and not all instructions operated the same, especially when concerning flags. An example: loopEntry: ld a, (hl) ld (de), a inc hl inc de djnz loopEntry Translates to x86 mnemonics as: loopEntry: mov al, [si] mov [di], al inc si inc di dec bl jnz loopEntry > See also: http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/hof_main.htm Which says nothing of a relationship between the 8086/8088 and the 8080. > Sorry, but the thing looks to be pre-x86 from here ... ;-) Sorry, but you're flatly wrong. The 8086 was developed *BEFORE* the 8088 was. The 8088 is an 8086 with an 8 bit data bus and was a cheaper chip than the 8086. Check this page: http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/tspecs.htm Release date of the 8086: 6/8/78 Release date of the 8088: 6/1/79 The 8088 came a year later than the 8086. And note Intel's note in the brief description row: "Identical to 8086 except for its 8-bit external bus". BTW, I worked on CPU upgrade boards AT INTEL for 8088 based PCs (remember the Inboard 386?). I'm perfectly aware of the differences between the two chips and its (lack of) relationship to the 8080, the 8085, and even Zilog's Z80. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Toda su base es pertenece a nosotros. Nadie instÃ Synthcom Systems, Inc. ¡lenos la bomba! MuÃ©vase, Zig! ICQ #29402898 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@152534 by Chris Carr

Chris Pringle wrote : > : Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? . Thanks for starting this string off Chris...I'm starting to feel really old and depressed. All this talk of an 8086 being an ancient micro. I'm thinking of changing my name to Retroman as I'm still using Z80's (8080) and 6301's. Yes, you can buy them as they are still being manufactured. I looked at these new fangled 8086's when they first came out, the instruction set is more than my brain cell can cope with. And I have a Text to Speech Synthesiser box that takes an RS232 input and outputs a passable imitation of Stephen Hawking. And before you ask, it uses a Z80 controlling a General Instrument voice synthesiser chip. Regards Chris "Retroman" Carr -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@152949 by Craig Cassin

Yes. Look for old XTs. This is just an old slow computer with a small hard disk for memory. You can write and read directy to the parallel port. I use these because 1) They are usually free. 2) They have a large display. Warning: An old XT will never be anywhere near as reliable as a PIC. Do not use one in an application where its failure will make much of a difference. {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@163848 by Bill Westfield

No one has quite emphasized the important part: The Intel 8088 was the cpu used in the original IBM-PC and IBM-PC/XT It's still available (I'm not sure if it's still being manufactured.) In fact, you can get full PC/XT-style motherboards for about $10 (last time I saw some advertised.) Such a motherboard is comparable in some sense to a PIC, as is a full PC system, which you can generally find at garage sales, in dumpsters, and at surplus stores, in amoungst the "too worthless to even test" piles... The NEC V-20 was an 8088 pin compatible with slightly better performance, as well as an 8080 (z80?) compatibility feature... BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@163859 by Herbert Graf

> : Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? > > Nah, you're just showing how young you are! :-) It's an *ancient* > (pre-x86) > Intel microprocessor. It was around when I was at DeVry/Columbus learning > 8085 assembler language in 1984. Actually I'm not that old and no, it was not a pre x86 processor. The 8088 was functionally identical to the 8086 (the first x86 processor) except the data bus was 8 bits instead of 16 bits (so that 8 bit support parts could be used instead of the much more expensive and brand new 16 bit parts). The first PC, the IBM XT had the 8088 processor. The 8087 was it's math coprocessor. It was actually NEWER than the 8086, but I'm not sure on that point. TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@164104 by Herbert Graf

> Wow, I never knew any of that. > So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need > EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? Are they still being produced? No I don't think so. But they are like any other Intel CPU, they require a ton of support components and cannot be used like PICs which are generally self contained units. TTYL > {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@164511 by Herbert Graf

> : It's not pre-x86. It's an 8 bit external data bus version of > the 8086. But > : it is ancient. > > http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/8086.HTM: > "Intel introduced the 8086 and 8088 microprocessor extensions to the 8080 > product line in 1979." > > http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/80186.HTM: > "Intel continued the evolution of the 8086 and 8088 by > introducing the 80186 > and 80188." > > http://www.sxlist.com/techref/intel/80286.HTM: > "In 1982, Intel introduced the 80286." > > See also: http://www.intel.com/intel/museum/25anniv/hof/hof_main.htm > > Sorry, but the thing looks to be pre-x86 from here ... ;-) Nope, the 8086 was the first x86 processor, the 8088 was functionally identical except it had an 8 bit external bus so that existing 8 bit parts could be used (which were much cheaper than 16 bit wide parts). TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@172800 by Douglas Wood

Sorry, the 8088 is the 8-bit version of the 8086, and is definitely an x86 processor. It was the CPU used in the original IBM PC. Douglas Wood Software Engineer spamBeGonedbwoodKILLspamkc.rr.com Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX http://epicis.piclist.com {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@180706 by Olin Lathrop

> So, can you still buy 8088s? I don't know, but you can certainly find that out yourself. I sorta remember seeing Z80 selling somewhere recently. That was Zilog's slightly enhanced version of the 8080. > And, if so, what can they do. Do you need > EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? The early microprocessors all required external memory. The 8080 only has a few registers, but no general storage. Chips of that era also didn't have the integrated perpherals that PICs do. It was a major feat just to get a whole processor onto a single chip. Most PICs are really microcontrollers as apposed to microprocessors. The former is an all in one solution designed for dedicated embedded tasks. Microprocessors can usually act like more general purpose computers. I consider the main distinction is that a microprocessor has a true I/O bus and/or memory bus. Some flavors of the 17 and 18 series PICs have this capability. In fact, this is referred to as "microprocessor mode" by Microchip. Whole computer systems were built around the Intel's 8080, Zilog's Z80, Motorola's 6502 and others. Remember the IMSAI, Altair, CP-M, or even the TRS-80? I still have a darkroom timer that I built with a Z80 in 1980. Yes, it still works perfectly. In fact, it seems the darkroom timer and the Z80 inside has outlasted my using wet silver processes for home photography. This darkroom timer, an enlarger, and a color analyser all with dust covers over them are sitting three feet away from me at the end of the table. Most of the table is now taken up with a Polaroid 35mm scanner, an Epson 1270 photographic printer, a PC with a Pentium III, and a 19 inch monitor. Times change. ******************************************************************** Olin Lathrop, embedded systems consultant in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, .....olinspam_OUTembedinc.com, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-request.....TakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@181742 by Neil Bradley

> And I have a Text to Speech Synthesiser box that takes an RS232 input > and outputs a passable imitation of Stephen Hawking. And before you ask, > it uses a Z80 controlling a General Instrument voice synthesiser chip. This wouldn't happen to be the old Votrax speech synthesizer that connected to the TRS-80 Model I, would it? -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Toda su base es pertenece a nosotros. Nadie instÃ Synthcom Systems, Inc. ¡lenos la bomba! MuÃ©vase, Zig! ICQ #29402898 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@195411 by Douglas Wood

> The early microprocessors all required external memory Most modern processors that I've seen still require external memory. Douglas Wood Software Engineer .....dbwoodRemoveMEkc.rr.com Home of the EPICIS Development System for the PIC and SX http://epicis.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@200047 by Michael C. Reid

another interesting bit of trivia is that when IBM built the first "PC", for the first time they chose off the shelf parts instead of proprietary IBM stuff. Zilog was in the hunt for the Z80 processor, but they were late to develop one with the 16 bit bus, so Intel got the nod. If Zilog had won out, they would be the 800 pound gorilla! {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@200501 by Neil Bradley

> another interesting bit of trivia is that when IBM built the first "PC", for > the first time they chose off the shelf parts instead of proprietary IBM > stuff. Zilog was in the hunt for the Z80 processor, but they were late to > develop one with the 16 bit bus, so Intel got the nod. If Zilog had won > out, they would be the 800 pound gorilla! I think you mean the 68000. That was the original chip that IBM wanted to have in the XT/PC machines, but Motorola wasn't interested in lowering their prices and Intel was. Never did hear the Zilog spin on it. -->Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Neil Bradley Toda su base es pertenece a nosotros. Nadie instÃ Synthcom Systems, Inc. ¡lenos la bomba! MuÃ©vase, Zig! ICQ #29402898 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@200913 by Michael C. Reid

A former exec from Zilog told me that story at a trade show. Later on I read on article about the development team for the PC and the article talked about the Z80. The first PC prototype was actually wire-wrapped. It think one of them is in the Computer Musuem in Boston {Original Message removed}

2001\04\21@201117 by Michael C. Reid

btw, your spanish saying at the botton has es which should be se! -----Original Message----- From: pic microcontroller discussion list [TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Neil Bradley Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:18 PM To: PICLISTEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [PIC]: Voice synthesis > another interesting bit of trivia is that when IBM built the first "PC", for > the first time they chose off the shelf parts instead of proprietary IBM > stuff. Zilog was in the hunt for the Z80 processor, but they were late to > develop one with the 16 bit bus, so Intel got the nod. If Zilog had won > out, they would be the 800 pound gorilla! I think you mean the 68000. That was the original chip that IBM wanted to have in the XT/PC machines, but Motorola wasn't interested in lowering their prices and Intel was. Never did hear the Zilog spin on it. -->Neil ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Neil Bradley Toda su base es pertenece a nosotros. Nadie instC Synthcom Systems, Inc. !lenos la bomba! MuC)vase, Zig! ICQ #29402898 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestRemoveMEEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@203659 by goflo

Still available from Mouser, last time I looked. Makes you wonder who's doing what with them ... regards, Jack William Chops Westfield wrote: > The NEC V-20 was an 8088 pin compatible with slightly better performance, as > well as an 8080 (z80?) compatibility feature... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\21@215613 by Dale Botkin

On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Michael C. Reid wrote: > another interesting bit of trivia is that when IBM built the first "PC", for > the first time they chose off the shelf parts instead of proprietary IBM > stuff. Zilog was in the hunt for the Z80 processor, but they were late to > develop one with the 16 bit bus, so Intel got the nod. If Zilog had won > out, they would be the 800 pound gorilla! Well..... not exactly, really. There were prior examples, just not that everyone has seen. I remember working on some earlier systems that used 8085 and other Intel CPUs (the machine types escape me at the moment). Some were dedicated word processors, some programmable in BASIC or PL/1 or some such nonsense as general purpose computers. Plus there were plenty of VTL logic machines built (the 3271 was the first I rememebr seeing). VTL was "vendor transistor logic", common 7400 series TTL chips re-marked with IBM part numbers. At one time we were working on a cross-reference of IBM to 74xx parts. The PC was, however, the first time I ever saw IBM use someone else's chips without having their own part numbers on them, though. Up until that point every component had an IBM part number and none other. Dale --- The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." -- Isaac Asimov -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUT.....mitvma.mit.edu

2001\04\22@004528 by Martin McCormick

I got in on the tail end of this discussion so I don't know when it crossed the line from voice synthesis to 8088's, but the thing about an 8088 is that it will be much slower for the same clock speed than a PIC. It is , however, tremendously more friendly to high-level data processing of certain kinds of data but it isn't quite fast enough to do justice to real-time audio and definitely not video. I keep a few old XT's around because the price was right, mainly nothing for most of them, and they can be outfitted with Kermit and a 16550-based serial board and they do a pretty neat job as a smart VT100 up to 9600 baud. You've just got to be realistic about what to expect it to do. It is in the category of too useful to throw away, but I wouldn't spend anything to fix it when its time comes. You could use such a system for a dedicated application if it isn't something that needs to be fast. I have used these cast-offs to log serial data as well as generate test data for other systems, etc. Martin McCormick WB5AGZ Stillwater, OK OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@013143 by Peter L. Peres

> Can you tell us where to find the 8088 program? TRAN.ZIP on Simtel. Binary only. Try to contact the author. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@013153 by Peter L. Peres

> Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? Just too young ? The 8088 (Intel 8088) was a leaner version of the i8086, the ancestor of all Pentiums. It powered the IBM PC XT computer which was the second generation of PC. It was the first kind of PC that came with a hard disk (10M !) and was cloned extensively. The XT ran at 8 or 10 or 12 MHz (twice as fast as the original 4.77MHz PC). Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@013202 by Peter L. Peres

> Wow, I never knew any of that. So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, > what can they do. Do you need EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the > same way as a PIC can? You can buy surplus 8088s and clones thereof called V10,20 ... etc made by NEC (which have some differences though). The 8088 has two modes of operation, called minimal and maximal. The first makes it behave very much like an 8051 bus-wise (muxed and all that). There used to be an assembly book that contained a project based on a 8088 in minimal configuration. The sole advantage this obsolete chip has is, that all programs written using PC toolchains targeted at 8086/8088 will run on it (if they fit in 64k or unsegmented minimal mode ram). It needs an eprom to run. Instead of wasting time with this chip, it is better to buy a small embedded PC (which may be 8088 compatible) and learn on it. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@013219 by Peter L. Peres

> I don't know, but you can certainly find that out yourself. I sorta > remember seeing Z80 selling somewhere recently. That was Zilog's > slightly enhanced version of the 8080. ^^^^^^^^ Huh ? The Z80 was a MAJOR step forward from the clunky 8080 instruction set. Z80 variants probably outsold 8080s for 10 years or so. There was a time when there were no business and robot computers to be found that did *not* contain a Z80. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@015736 by Dale Botkin

On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Peter L. Peres wrote: > > Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? > > Just too young ? The 8088 (Intel 8088) was a leaner version of the i8086, > the ancestor of all Pentiums. It powered the IBM PC XT computer which was > the second generation of PC. It was the first kind of PC that came with a > hard disk (10M !) and was cloned extensively. The XT ran at 8 or 10 or 12 > MHz (twice as fast as the original 4.77MHz PC). Well, the *clones* ran at higher speeds. The IBM XT always ran at 4.77MHz, same as the PC. The 8088 was used in the PC, XT, Portable, PC Jr and maybe a few I missed (Lord only knows what it could be found in wearing an anonymous IBM part number). I think the first IBM-produced PC to use an 8086 was the PS/2 Model 30 (10MHz). Olivetti and others had done so long before. Someone correct me if I have this wrong: PC - 8088 @ 4.77MHz XT - 8088 @ 4.77MHz AT - 80286 @ 6MHz (later upgraded to 8MHz) Jr - 8088 @ 4.77MHz Portable - 8088 @ 4.77MHz 8530 - 8086 @ 10MHz XT cones - 8088 @ 4.77 to 10MHz AT clones - 80286 @ 8 to 12MHz I think the 8550 was a '286 at 12MHz, 8570 I don't remember, 8580 was (I think) an 80386SX at 16MHz. I could be wrong, I was never a fan of the PS/2 MCA machines. --- The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." -- Isaac Asimov -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@032021 by Chris Carr

>> And I have a Text to Speech Synthesiser box that takes an RS232 input >> and outputs a passable imitation of Stephen Hawking. And before you ask, >> it uses a Z80 controlling a General Instrument voice synthesiser chip. >This wouldn't happen to be the old Votrax speech synthesizer that >connected to the TRS-80 Model I, would it? It dates from the same era. If I remember correctly the original design was by Steve Ciarcia when he used to write a regular column for Byte Magazine under the header Circuit Cellar. The unit is still in use and I have never had any reason to open it up since I built it. It has outlasted several power amplifiers though. It has not had an easy life neither, it currently provides a voice output for various navigation and radio systems fitted to a LandRover, which is another reason why I cannot open it up, it's bolted down well. However, to bring the topic back to PIC's It might be instructive to re-visit the technique used which was called Linear Predictive Coding. I did a quick look using Google and there seems to be a lot of useful information out there. It strikes me that with a bit of outboard hardware it should be within the capabilities of a PIC. Perhaps using a chip intended for a mobile phone ? I seem to remember that somewhere I have information on the rules for pronouncing English Words. If there is the interest and I can find the time I will have a look in the library and try and find them. Regards Chris Carr ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Neil Bradley Toda su base es pertenece a nosotros. Nadie instC Synthcom Systems, Inc. !lenos la bomba! MuC)vase, Zig! ICQ #29402898 -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@140449 by Alan B. Pearce

>: Sorry for being REALLY dumb, but whats an 8088? >Nah, you're just showing how young you are! :-) It's an *ancient* (pre-x86) >Intel microprocessor. It was around when I was at DeVry/Columbus learning >8085 assembler language in 1984. Umm, its not pre x86 - if you want to be pedantic it is post x86 as it is the 8 bit bus version of the 8086, which is the processor that was the first in the x86 series. :))) To the original questioner, it may be easier to think of it as the processor in the original IBM PC. Any code written for it will run on a Pentium - with some gotchas. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@140453 by Alan B. Pearce

>When Intel got to the 80586 they found some weeny had >deliberately trademarked that name just for that purpose. >Instead of paying off the weeny, Intel renamed the 80586 to >the Pentium. Not sure that is quite right. As I understood the situation they found that no-one could trademark or copyright a plain number, which was what they were trying to do to stop AMD and others making 486's, so they came up with a name. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\22@172922 by Alexandre Domingos F. Souza

>Someone correct me if I have this wrong: >XT cones - 8088 @ 4.77 to 10MHz There was a common "Juko" board running 12 MHz. If I'm not wrong, there was ONE board running (from the factory) at 15MHz. >AT clones - 80286 @ 8 to 12MHz I had one at 25MHz using a Harris microprocessor... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2001\04\23@064341 by dr. Imre Bartfai

Hi, I am very interested how to build a minimal 8088 system, so could you tell us please what another chips are needed. I think of a minimal system with SRAM and EEPROM, USART. What do I need yet? Thank you. Imre On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Dale Botkin wrote: {Quote hidden}> On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Chris Pringle wrote: > > > Wow, I never knew any of that. > > So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need > > EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? > > Yes, 8088's are still available. > > They can do anything an 8086 can do... which is to say, most of what a > Pentium-III can do, but without the memory management (and way slower). > 1MB physical address limit, segmented into 64K banks. The chip is a CPU, > not an MPU, and has no internal ROM, EPROM, RAM, peripheral functions, or > anything other than the processor itself. So no, you ca't use it as a > single-chip embedded processor, but I've seen designs with as few as 3 > 40-pin packages. It's more suited to larger and more complex embedded > tasks or general-purpose computers -- the IBM PC & XT used the 8088, as > did many other systems. > > Dale > --- > The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new > discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." > -- Isaac Asimov > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu > > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2001\04\23@064957 by Alan B. Pearce

>It dates from the same era. If I remember correctly the original design >was by Steve Ciarcia when he used to write a regular column for Byte >Magazine under the header Circuit Cellar. The unit is still in use and I >have never had any reason to open it up since I built it. It has outlasted >several power amplifiers though. It has not had an easy life neither, it >currently provides a voice output for various navigation and radio systems >fitted to a LandRover, which is another reason why I cannot open it up, it's >bolted down well. This does sound like the Votrax SC01 chip. I still have an unused one somewhere, and a copy of the Circuit Cellar article. The chip was a single integrated circuit version of a module that Votrax had previously made out of discrete components that came in a big potted lump about 3 inches wide and 9 inches long by about 3/4 inch thick. The one of these I saw was a peripheral for an OSI home computer. I remember it produced passable speech if you got the phonemes right. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2001\04\23@070623 by John Walker

There is a book written by Robert Grossblatt titled "The 8088 Project Book". It steps you through construction of an 8088 based system. It may be worthwhile getting your hands on it. The ISBN is 0-8306-3171-2, it sold for $19.95. Well worth it. JJW SEI/CMU At 12:42 PM 4/23/01 +0200, you wrote: {Quote hidden}>Hi, > >I am very interested how to build a minimal 8088 system, so could you tell >us please what another chips are needed. I think of a minimal system with >SRAM and EEPROM, USART. What do I need yet? > >Thank you. >Imre > > >On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Dale Botkin wrote: > > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Chris Pringle wrote: > > > > > Wow, I never knew any of that. > > > So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need > > > EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? > > > > Yes, 8088's are still available. > > > > They can do anything an 8086 can do... which is to say, most of what a > > Pentium-III can do, but without the memory management (and way slower). > > 1MB physical address limit, segmented into 64K banks. The chip is a CPU, > > not an MPU, and has no internal ROM, EPROM, RAM, peripheral functions, or > > anything other than the processor itself. So no, you ca't use it as a > > single-chip embedded processor, but I've seen designs with as few as 3 > > 40-pin packages. It's more suited to larger and more complex embedded > > tasks or general-purpose computers -- the IBM PC & XT used the 8088, as > > did many other systems. > > > > Dale > > --- > > The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new > > discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." > > -- Isaac Asimov > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > > RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu> > > > > > > > > > >-- >http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics >(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2001\04\23@084905 by Michael Rigby-Jones

Somewhere at home I have a folder full of old electronics magazine articles that I saved. I'm pretty sure that one of them is for an 8088 embedded system with ROM/RAM etc complete with PCB design. I will try to find it and scan it if you are interested. Mike > {Original Message removed}

2001\04\23@103453 by Dale Botkin

Man, I'm reaching WAY back here. I haven't played with ts stuff in ages, but as near as I can recall: 8755 is 2K x 8 EPROM & I/O in a 40-pin package. 8155 is RAM and I/O Neither one has a USART or EEPROM. For that you'd be best off going with run of the mill parts like 2864 and AY-3-1015 or something, but then you need an 8-bit latch to demux the address/data bus. The 8x55 parts have the muxed bus logic built in, so with 3 parts you have CPU, EPROM, RAM, and lots of I/O -- but no USART and no EEPROM. Remember this is late 70s - eary 80s technology. There may be something newer that would be simpler to interface, I dunno. Somewhere I have an old Ciarca's Circuit Cellar book from about 1980 or so, with detailed information on a 3-chip 8088 system running a multi-user, multitasking system supporting two 300bps ASCII terminals -- all with 2K or EPROM and a tiny bit of RAM! I'll see if I can dig it out or see if it's available on the web. Dale On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, dr. Imre Bartfai wrote: {Quote hidden}> Hi, > > I am very interested how to build a minimal 8088 system, so could you tell > us please what another chips are needed. I think of a minimal system with > SRAM and EEPROM, USART. What do I need yet? > > Thank you. > Imre > > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Dale Botkin wrote: > > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Chris Pringle wrote: > > > > > Wow, I never knew any of that. > > > So, can you still buy 8088s? And, if so, what can they do. Do you need > > > EPROMS for memory? Can they be used in the same way as a PIC can? > > > > Yes, 8088's are still available. > > > > They can do anything an 8086 can do... which is to say, most of what a > > Pentium-III can do, but without the memory management (and way slower). > > 1MB physical address limit, segmented into 64K banks. The chip is a CPU, > > not an MPU, and has no internal ROM, EPROM, RAM, peripheral functions, or > > anything other than the processor itself. So no, you ca't use it as a > > single-chip embedded processor, but I've seen designs with as few as 3 > > 40-pin packages. It's more suited to larger and more complex embedded > > tasks or general-purpose computers -- the IBM PC & XT used the 8088, as > > did many other systems. > > > > Dale > > --- > > The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new > > discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." > > -- Isaac Asimov > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList > > .....piclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@EraseMEmitvma.mit.edu> > > > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > > --- The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..." -- Isaac Asimov -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2001\04\23@114506 by jamesnewton

Come on guys, this is not a PIC topic. Please change the subject line on future posts to [EE]: or [OT]: (for Old Timer) <GRIN> --- James Newton (PICList Admin #3) .....jamesnewtonRemoveMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org {Original Message removed}

2001\04\23@131028 by Chris Pringle

Ditto. --- Regards, Chris Pringle Web http://www.latrigg.demon.co.uk Rating www.h-2k.co.uk/hexuser/showuser.asp?id=163 IM .....cpringleUKSTOPspam@spam@hotmail.com {Original Message removed}

2001\04\24@015338 by dr. Imre Bartfai

Hi, yes, I am very interested. I would be very grateful if you could find that stuff. Thank you in advance, and thank you all who helped up to now. Regards, Imre On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, Michael Rigby-Jones wrote: > Somewhere at home I have a folder full of old electronics magazine articles > that I saved. I'm pretty sure that one of them is for an 8088 embedded > system with ROM/RAM etc complete with PCB design. I will try to find it and > scan it if you are interested. > > Mike > > > {Original Message removed}

2001\04\24@124123 by Martin Velez

Hello Imre in Mexico exists an organization called Centro Japones de Informacion Electronica, they sell a complet course about microprocessors (they use 8085 microprocessor, predecessor of 8088 microprocessor) with the kit to assemble, contact them at email cjiesaEraseME@spam@intmex.com Martin velez -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

2001\04\25@082411 by Peter L. Peres

> Hi, > > I am very interested how to build a minimal 8088 system, so could you > tell us please what another chips are needed. I think of a minimal > system with SRAM and EEPROM, USART. What do I need yet? > > Thank you. Imre You need: - The 8088 data sheet - The 8088 data sheet (Intel microprocessor data book anno ??) - Did I say that you need the 8088 data sheet ? (it constains schematics for a minimal system) - One demultiplexer latch for the combined address/data bus - One EEPROM or ROM - Add SRAM as required - Chip select decoding as in 8051 (almost) - It should be possible to implement a 8088 CPU on a 8051 sbc board by building a small piggyback board to hold the 8088 and the few gates required to convert the signals. If you want interrupts (prioritized) then an interrupt controller chip will be required but if you use a single shared interrupt then you can fake it in hardware (using only one vector). I can't remember the title of the book with the 8088 system in it. It was about 120 pages, medium format (not standard book size), with a nice foldout schematic of the system in the back cover. Paperback. Probably about 30$ a few years ago. Maybe someone saw it ? Peter -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2001\04\25@100257 by Peter L. Peres

There is a book written by Robert Grossblatt titled "The 8088 Project Book". That could be what I saw. Peter -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2001\04\25@112954 by jamesnewton

Please. NO MORE POSTS ON THE 8088 with a [PIC]: topic tag. FIRST WARNING. --- James Newton (PICList Admin #3) jamesnewtonspam_OUT@spam@piclist.com 1-619-652-0593 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org {Original Message removed}

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