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PICList Thread
'[PIC]: Gang Programmer'
2006\03\27@131744 by Steve Smith

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I have an application for which I need a Gang programmer that does 8 ish at
a time. It needs to do all pic from 12 - 18 xxx and ICSP with adaptors.
Does anybody use such a beast or have any suggestions as to best value for
money

Regards Steve

2006\03\27@140537 by olin piclist

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Steve Smith wrote:
> I have an application for which I need a Gang programmer that does 8
> ish at a time. It needs to do all pic from 12 - 18 xxx and ICSP with
> adaptors. Does anybody use such a beast or have any suggestions as to
> best value for money

There is an inherent problem with gang programming since part of proper
programming means reading back data from the PIC.  This of course needs to
be done individually for each PIC and can't be ganged.

If you just need to program a bunch of PICs per operator action, you can use
relays to mux the programming lines from a single programmer.  If you want
to gang because of the speed, then about the only choice is multiple
programmers.  I've got customers using multiple ProProgs in exactly this
fashion.  Each requires it's own serial port, but they do this with multiple
USB to serial converters.

Are you setting up a generic PIC programming facility?  If a dedicated
fixture, why does the programmer need to support anything beyond the PICs
that go in that product?


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\27@144231 by Steve Smith

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The problem is speed....2.5mins for an f876 we have 3 picstarts going all
day most days and I have looked at stag and others that are self contained
an icd is a little faster but there is only one in the building. We need a
decent device that's upgradable picstarts are too time consuming to man! No
its not a programming facility we use 12c509,16c57c,f877,f876 and planed
18f452 at the moment 508,57 don't support icsp the others do hence the gang
option or any other ideas ???
Steve

{Original Message removed}

2006\03\27@153028 by Chris Emerson

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On Mon, Mar 27, 2006 at 02:06:47PM -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Steve Smith wrote:
> > I have an application for which I need a Gang programmer that does 8
> > ish at a time. It needs to do all pic from 12 - 18 xxx and ICSP with
> > adaptors. Does anybody use such a beast or have any suggestions as to
> > best value for money
>
> There is an inherent problem with gang programming since part of proper
> programming means reading back data from the PIC.  This of course needs to
> be done individually for each PIC and can't be ganged.

Hmm, you could wire all of the PICs' data lines to an N-input AND gate,
and in parallel to an N-input OR gate.  Then if my thinking is right you
only need to verify two bitstreams (one from each gate) to tell you "all
correct" (hopefully the common case) or "one or more failures", for an
arbitrary number of PICs.

Chris

2006\03\27@160427 by olin piclist

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Steve Smith wrote:
> The problem is speed....2.5mins for an f876

The real problem there is the programmer.  My Proprog is 2.6 times faster
than that if the entire chip is full.  It does a 16F876 in 20 to 57 seconds,
depending on how much of it is used.  And that's with 2 verify passes, one
at each Vdd limit.  The Picstart+ does only one pass and therefore doesn't
qualify as a production programmer according to Microchip's definition.

> an icd is a little faster but there is only one in the building.

The ICD2 is also a development, not production, programmer.  As far as I
know the ICD2 is not scriptable.  You probably would rather not have the
production techs clickety-clicking in MPLAB to program each PIC.

> 12c509,16c57c,f877,f876 and planed 18f452 at the moment

You won't find too many third party programmers supporting the old C parts.
My programmers do support all three of the F parts you list.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\27@175503 by William Chops Westfield

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On Mar 27, 2006, at 12:30 PM, Chris Emerson wrote:

>> There is an inherent problem with gang programming since part
>> of proper programming means reading back data from the PIC.
>> This of course needs to be done individually for each PIC
>> and can't be ganged.
>
> Hmm, you could wire all of the PICs' data lines to an N-input
> AND gate, and in parallel to an N-input OR gate.

As far as I know, all "real" gang programmers treat the individual
chips individually, and rely on "operations that occur in HW"
(shifting out a serial register or allowing the flash to be
programmed) being slow enough that they can overlap and allow
significant efficiency gains.  Otherwise, you can't properly
do that adaptive timing stuff, or detect errors on a per-chip basis.

At some point, you end up spending more time loading, unloading,
labeling, etc than you do actually programming.  With many chips
taking less than a minute to program, I'd expect that to happen
at fairly low gang-counts...

BillW

2006\03\27@180553 by Paul Hutchinson

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 1:16 PM
>
> I have an application for which I need a Gang programmer that
> does 8 ish at
> a time. It needs to do all pic from 12 - 18 xxx and ICSP with adaptors.
> Does anybody use such a beast or have any suggestions as to best value for
> money
>
> Regards Steve

At work, we are very happy with our Advin Pilot and an 8-gang PIC adapter.
They offer a gang ICSP adapter but we haven't bought one yet. I haven't
checked their device capabilities lists in a while but I believe they can do
everything you specified.
http://www.advin.com/

The Advin gang unit we use is a very fast and much more affordable than the
very capable units from Data I/O. http://www.dataio.com/

Paul

2006\03\27@180804 by William Chops Westfield

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On Mar 27, 2006, at 1:04 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> 12c509,16c57c,f877,f876 and planed 18f452 at the moment
>
> You won't find too many third party programmers supporting
>  the old C parts.

I suspect ALL of the fancy dac-per-pin, any chip, anytime
programmers (bytek, BP, dataio, etc) can do C microchip parts as well
as F parts.  At a price, of course!  Worth a trip to ESC to look
around, if you're local (otherwise, save the $1000+ cost of the trip
for the programmer!)

BillW

2006\03\27@190417 by olin piclist

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Paul Hutchinson wrote:
> At work, we are very happy with our Advin Pilot and an 8-gang PIC
> adapter.

So how much total did you 8-gang unit cost?

******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\27@213743 by Paul Hutchinson

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu On Behalf Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 7:04 PM
>
> Paul Hutchinson wrote:
> > At work, we are very happy with our Advin Pilot and an 8-gang PIC
> > adapter.
>
> So how much total did you 8-gang unit cost?

We bought it about 6 years ago and I don't remember how much it was back
then. Currently the equivalent unit, PILOT-U84-Plus, is $2400.00 for the
base universal programmer and $700.00 for a PIC Micro 8-gang adapter.

This is a DAC per pin, software upgradeable, universal programmer that can
program PALs, GALs, parallel and serial PROMs, E/EPROMs, FLASH memories,
microcontrollers, Altera MAX, AMD MACHs, Lattice isp/pLSI, WSI PSDs, Xilinx
EPLDs, and many other devices.

Paul

2006\03\28@094126 by alan smith

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what about having your distro do the programming?  For qty, thats usually the better way to go

Steve Smith <xygaxspamKILLspamblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:  The problem is speed....2.5mins for an f876 we have 3 picstarts going all
day most days and I have looked at stag and others that are self contained
an icd is a little faster but there is only one in the building. We need a
decent device that's upgradable picstarts are too time consuming to man! No
its not a programming facility we use 12c509,16c57c,f877,f876 and planed
18f452 at the moment 508,57 don't support icsp the others do hence the gang
option or any other ideas ???
Steve

{Original Message removed}

2006\03\28@143630 by Per Linne

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CCS MachX does...

PerL


> You won't find too many third party programmers supporting the old C parts.


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