Post by thread:[PIC]: Contracting job gone wrong

Well, it finally happened. What started out as a promising paying code-for-hire job went bad, the customer has stopped responding to emails and has apparently decided not to pay for the work done as agreed. Since we're several states apart and the amount isn't enough to get lawyers involved, I guess he gets away with it for the time being. I'm really disappointed; it's not like my kids are going to go without shoes this winter, but there are a few hundred hours of my time I would have spent doing other things if I'd known I wasn't going to get paid for them. I even offered to be flexible on the amount if he was in financial straits, but there has been no response to my last four or five emails since December. I debated for a few weeks whether or not to post this to the list. I don't want to be seen as using the list or my so-called position as list admin to push a personal agenda. Sooner or later, though, the guy is going to need some changes or fixes made to the code, and I suspect he's going to turn to another PICList member to do it. I'd really like to spare the next guy the same fate, and yes, it would irritate me to know someone else was getting paid to do what I should have already been paid to do. I'm not going to name names or go too deep into details, but if you get an email from someone looking to have some work done on some CCS C source code (that still may or may not have my name attached), you might want to drop me a note privately to see if it's the same guy. IANAL, but as far as I can tell since I didn't get paid as agreed, he's got no right to the code. Dale --- Time wounds all heels. -- Me -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Why are you hesitant to name names? If he is a deadbeat, in other words a *CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next victim. Few *hundred* hours? Are you kidding me? Send him another email warning him that you will go public with the situation if it makes you feel better then POST. If you are an honest person, and it sounds like you are, you deserve honesty from those you do business with. If he has anything to say then he can post too. Frankly, I'd make a short web page about him and the situation and feed it to google. When he remedies the situation to your satisfaction, you can change it or take it down. Its not like you will be committing libel & you are doing honest freelancers a favor. Jesse Dale Botkin wrote: {Quote hidden}> Well, it finally happened. What started out as a promising paying > code-for-hire job went bad, the customer has stopped responding to emails > and has apparently decided not to pay for the work done as agreed. Since > we're several states apart and the amount isn't enough to get lawyers > involved, I guess he gets away with it for the time being. I'm really > disappointed; it's not like my kids are going to go without shoes this > winter, but there are a few hundred hours of my time I would have spent > doing other things if I'd known I wasn't going to get paid for them. I > even offered to be flexible on the amount if he was in financial straits, > but there has been no response to my last four or five emails since > December. > > I debated for a few weeks whether or not to post this to the list. I > don't want to be seen as using the list or my so-called position as list > admin to push a personal agenda. Sooner or later, though, the guy is > going to need some changes or fixes made to the code, and I suspect he's > going to turn to another PICList member to do it. I'd really like to > spare the next guy the same fate, and yes, it would irritate me to know > someone else was getting paid to do what I should have already been paid > to do. > > I'm not going to name names or go too deep into details, but if you get an > email from someone looking to have some work done on some CCS C source > code (that still may or may not have my name attached), you might want to > drop me a note privately to see if it's the same guy. IANAL, but as far > as I can tell since I didn't get paid as agreed, he's got no right to the > code. > > Dale > --- > Time wounds all heels. > -- Me > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > > > > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

And I assume that you may also have some recourse in 'small claims' court. At the very least, file a complaint with the BBB in his area. http://www.bbb.org/ If he ever tries to become a member, he'll have some explaining to do. And since what you're going to post is 'the truth' you can't be liable for libel. And DO name names since that's the only potent club you've got. And have you tried phoning him to confirm that he really ISN'T going to pay. Computers do go down and it can sometimes take weeks to get them back up. Never attribute to malice that which can also come from stupidity (or long winter vacations). You really should try to talk to him on the phone before pulling the trigger. And he may have gone bankrupt, in which case you'll want to file a claim with the trustee or bankrupcy court in his locale ASAP. Robert Jesse Lackey wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Why are you hesitant to name names? If he is a deadbeat, in other words a > *CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next > victim. Few *hundred* hours? Are you kidding me? Send him another email > warning him that you will go public with the situation if it makes you feel > better then POST. If you are an honest person, and it sounds like you are, > you deserve honesty from those you do business with. If he has anything to > say then he can post too. > > Frankly, I'd make a short web page about him and the situation and feed it > to google. When he remedies the situation to your satisfaction, you can > change it or take it down. > > Its not like you will be committing libel & you are doing honest freelancers > a favor. > > Jesse > > Dale Botkin wrote: > > > Well, it finally happened. What started out as a promising paying > > code-for-hire job went bad, the customer has stopped responding to emails > > and has apparently decided not to pay for the work done as agreed. Since > > we're several states apart and the amount isn't enough to get lawyers > > involved, I guess he gets away with it for the time being. I'm really > > disappointed; it's not like my kids are going to go without shoes this > > winter, but there are a few hundred hours of my time I would have spent > > doing other things if I'd known I wasn't going to get paid for them. I > > even offered to be flexible on the amount if he was in financial straits, > > but there has been no response to my last four or five emails since > > December. > > > > I debated for a few weeks whether or not to post this to the list. I > > don't want to be seen as using the list or my so-called position as list > > admin to push a personal agenda. Sooner or later, though, the guy is > > going to need some changes or fixes made to the code, and I suspect he's > > going to turn to another PICList member to do it. I'd really like to > > spare the next guy the same fate, and yes, it would irritate me to know > > someone else was getting paid to do what I should have already been paid > > to do. > > > > I'm not going to name names or go too deep into details, but if you get an > > email from someone looking to have some work done on some CCS C source > > code (that still may or may not have my name attached), you might want to > > drop me a note privately to see if it's the same guy. IANAL, but as far > > as I can tell since I didn't get paid as agreed, he's got no right to the > > code. > > > > Dale > > --- > > Time wounds all heels. > > -- Me > > > > -- > > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > > email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > > > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email EraseMElistservspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

That's unfortunate. I don't like conflict, but in this situation, I would be inclined to post a "beware", both here and on the CCS board. I am not a professional contractor, but the work I have done has often been frustrating. In virtually every job, the requirements seem to keep growing, and I then have to toughen up and request additional payment prior to providing additional code. Although, the welfare of my students may not depend on payment, I get myself into a mindset that it does. Toughens me up. But, don't let it eat you up. Take some stock in knowing you would never stoop so low. In the future, stage the work and resolve to insist on partial prior payment as the software is delivered. Peter H Anderson, http://www.phanderson.com (Not affiliated with Arthur Andersen) --- Dale Botkin <@spam@daleKILLspamBOTKIN.ORG> wrote: > Well, it finally happened. What started out as a > promising paying __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! http://auctions.yahoo.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email KILLspamlistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Dale, I've seen some other responses and I would like to add something that the company I work for has to do occasionally: bring in a collection agency. You will have to turn over a large part of the money they shake loose from the deadbeats (50% is the amount I hear tossed around when the money types are talking), but it might be worth the try if you are just about to give up on getting anything. Collections people are paid to be persistant and they know how to go after credit ratings. The company that didn't pay you might change their minds after a big black mark shows up on the credit report and suppliers start insisting on payment up front instead of giving 30 days to pay. Karl Quoting Dale Botkin <RemoveMEdaleTakeThisOuTBOTKIN.ORG>: {Quote hidden}> Well, it finally happened. What started out as a promising paying > code-for-hire job went bad, the customer has stopped responding to > emails > and has apparently decided not to pay for the work done as agreed. > Since > we're several states apart and the amount isn't enough to get lawyers > involved, I guess he gets away with it for the time being. I'm really > disappointed; it's not like my kids are going to go without shoes this > winter, but there are a few hundred hours of my time I would have > spent > doing other things if I'd known I wasn't going to get paid for them. > I > even offered to be flexible on the amount if he was in financial > straits, > but there has been no response to my last four or five emails since > December. > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Tough Blow, Dale. I ate a $2000 moonlight job a coupla years ago, and decided not to sue. The blighters have the gall to come back around to my daylight employer looking for work in their "newly formed" company consisting of all the same guys just a few months later. Sheesh. Since then I have demanded retainers, and I have a clause in my contract (I now HAVE a contract) that says that I am working on time and materials basis and any change in scope means a change in fees. Low and behold, nobody has squawked about it. I figure this is how my lawyer works, so can I. I would NOT try to solve this problem via email. Call them, write letters, and have a lawyer wirte a letter. A $100 letter from my lawyer has scared the pants off several BIG companies that were about to roll over me with thier corporate steamrollers, after months of no response I got very apologetic calls from the boss saying we could easily work something out etc. etc. Lawyers don't have to sue to get results, and in fact you are always bettter off if they don't. --Lawrence {Original Message removed}

Lawrence has some great points, and I found a middle ground as well. You can go to the local magistrate (two states away) and file a small claim. They will be served with notice of a hearing. You do not have to involve an attorney at all. When they see that they are about to spend money to defend, or at least to show up, they get very agreeable. I got a call right away from their CFO. We came to a compromise, and he said I could drop by and pickup a check. I went dressed as a slob. You could see his distaste in handing over my check. It was fun. Chris~ Lawrence Lile wrote: > > I would NOT try to solve this problem via email. Call them, write letters, > and have a lawyer wirte a letter. A $100 letter from my lawyer has scared > the pants off several BIG companies that were about to roll over me with > thier corporate steamrollers, after months of no response I got very > apologetic calls from the boss saying we could easily work something out > etc. etc. Lawyers don't have to sue to get results, and in fact you are > always bettter off if they don't. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Jesse Lackey wrote: > Why are you hesitant to name names? If he is a deadbeat, in other words a > *CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next > victim. I have decided to make a couple more attempts to collect before going that far. I'll call and snailmail the guy to see if there may be some reason he's not responding. I'd really, really hate to harm someone's reputation if I was wrong. He could be hospitalized, moving, God only knows what. All I know for sure is that I get no email bounce messages and no response, but that could be caused by any number of things. I dealt with him for over a year with no problems, so it's hard for me to accept that he would just all of a sudden decide to break our agreement without explanation. On the other hand, we had discussed the amount and timing of the payment that was due, so it's not like the guy is unaware of the situation -- and he's got my address and phone number. As for future jobs, I do plan to make some changes to how I negotiate the job up front, as well as how scope & feature creep are handled. In this case I do have a string of emails documenting the agreements we have, but I am really not willing to go through the expense and hassle of suing, especially across state lines. Since I'm out the labor but not any cash or materials, I'll chalk it up as a tuition payment to Hard Knocks U. if I never get paid. Just to clarify, I *did* get some retainer up front, so it's not like I got totally shafted, it's just the payment that was promised on completion that never materialized. I'll get by. And sooner or later, like I said, something's going to need tweaking, and there is a pretty small pool of available tweakers for this kind of thing! I think in the future I'll start with a written agreement of the project scope and specifications, a retainer payment, and agreed terms of what happens when scope or features change, when payment is needed, progress reports, the works. It will be a pain in the rear, but so is working a few weeks on a project you're not going to get paid for. Dale -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservEraseME.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Be sure to send a certified letter. It only costs a few bucks and lets him know that you are serious. Dale Botkin wrote: {Quote hidden}>On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Jesse Lackey wrote: > >>Why are you hesitant to name names? If he is a deadbeat, in other words a >>*CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next >>victim. >> > >I have decided to make a couple more attempts to collect before going that >far. I'll call and snailmail the guy to see if there may be some reason >he's not responding. I'd really, really hate to harm someone's reputation >if I was wrong. He could be hospitalized, moving, God only knows what. >All I know for sure is that I get no email bounce messages and no >response, but that could be caused by any number of things. I dealt with >him for over a year with no problems, so it's hard for me to accept that >he would just all of a sudden decide to break our agreement without >explanation. On the other hand, we had discussed the amount and timing of >the payment that was due, so it's not like the guy is unaware of the >situation -- and he's got my address and phone number. > >As for future jobs, I do plan to make some changes to how I negotiate the >job up front, as well as how scope & feature creep are handled. In this >case I do have a string of emails documenting the agreements we have, but >I am really not willing to go through the expense and hassle of suing, >especially across state lines. Since I'm out the labor but not any cash >or materials, I'll chalk it up as a tuition payment to Hard Knocks U. if I >never get paid. Just to clarify, I *did* get some retainer up front, so >it's not like I got totally shafted, it's just the payment that was >promised on completion that never materialized. I'll get by. And sooner >or later, like I said, something's going to need tweaking, and there is a >pretty small pool of available tweakers for this kind of thing! > >I think in the future I'll start with a written agreement of the project >scope and specifications, a retainer payment, and agreed terms of what >happens when scope or features change, when payment is needed, progress >reports, the works. It will be a pain in the rear, but so is working a >few weeks on a project you're not going to get paid for. > >Dale > >-- >http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! >email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

But he might refuse to accept a registered letter. There is however a little legal trick, valid as far as I know in all Western legal systems, at the end of your letter add a sentence : " This letter is send as a registered as well as ordinary one " Brian Kraut wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Be sure to send a certified letter. It only costs a few bucks and lets > him know that you are serious. > > Dale Botkin wrote: > > >On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Jesse Lackey wrote: > > > >>Why are you hesitant to name names? If he is a deadbeat, in other words a > >>*CROOK*, I personally want to know who he is, to avoid becoming his next > >>victim. > >> > > > >I have decided to make a couple more attempts to collect before going that > >far. I'll call and snailmail the guy to see if there may be some reason > >he's not responding. I'd really, really hate to harm someone's reputation > >if I was wrong. He could be hospitalized, moving, God only knows what. > >All I know for sure is that I get no email bounce messages and no > >response, but that could be caused by any number of things. I dealt with > >him for over a year with no problems, so it's hard for me to accept that > >he would just all of a sudden decide to break our agreement without > >explanation. On the other hand, we had discussed the amount and timing of > >the payment that was due, so it's not like the guy is unaware of the > >situation -- and he's got my address and phone number. > > > >As for future jobs, I do plan to make some changes to how I negotiate the > >job up front, as well as how scope & feature creep are handled. In this > >case I do have a string of emails documenting the agreements we have, but > >I am really not willing to go through the expense and hassle of suing, > >especially across state lines. Since I'm out the labor but not any cash > >or materials, I'll chalk it up as a tuition payment to Hard Knocks U. if I > >never get paid. Just to clarify, I *did* get some retainer up front, so > >it's not like I got totally shafted, it's just the payment that was > >promised on completion that never materialized. I'll get by. And sooner > >or later, like I said, something's going to need tweaking, and there is a > >pretty small pool of available tweakers for this kind of thing! > > > >I think in the future I'll start with a written agreement of the project > >scope and specifications, a retainer payment, and agreed terms of what > >happens when scope or features change, when payment is needed, progress > >reports, the works. It will be a pain in the rear, but so is working a > >few weeks on a project you're not going to get paid for. > > > >Dale > > > >-- > >http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > >email EraseMElistservspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body > > > > > > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

"Alan B. Pearce" wrote: > > > But he might refuse to accept a registered letter. > > There is however a little legal trick, valid as far as I know in all > > Western legal systems, at the end of your letter add a sentence : > > " This letter is send as a registered as well as ordinary one " > > Do you mean that with this annotation on the end of the letter, you send two > copies, one of which is by registered post? > Its better to send both. > What is the legal advantage of doing this, or of the annotation? I'm not a lawyer, a long time ago I was advised to use it , and it did work. As far as I recall the legal advantage is in fact that, refusing to accept a registered letter he has to prove, in court case, that he hasn't received the other one. Which is extremely difficult if not impossible, and means that he was aware of your demands. Andy > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Nothing... already thought of that, in fact. We'll see how the efforts to get a response go. I don't prticularly want to be a manufacturer, but it's not like it wld be the first time. I can do it. Dale -- "Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly." - Arnold Edinborough On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Mark Newland wrote: > Since he has not paid for the services that you provided, he should not own > the rights to that code or any other work that you have done. This would > probally mean that you still own the rights to it. What would prevent you > from marketing the product yourself? -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

Dale, I have readed this topic with interes, maybe because thats is what I hapened every monts. So I understood your pain after 100 hours or more spend to solve a problem for an undecided customer. The only advice i can gave you is to remember that everything you are doing in this life is just for yourself ( and not for money or a better life or something like that, bulshits that your [and mine] capitalist society are learning you from your born day ). With other words, do not count what you left in your back ( a multibilionaire Microsoft company, or nothing ) but the way in\ which you spend your life. If you were happy when your pic project was running is the best payment. Is difficult to understood what I have written here if you are under 40 years old. But probably you'll remember at 60. Best regards, Vasile On Mon, 11 Feb 2002, Dale Botkin wrote: {Quote hidden}> Nothing... already thought of that, in fact. We'll see how the efforts > to get a response go. I don't prticularly want to be a manufacturer, but > it's not like it wld be the first time. I can do it. > > Dale > -- > "Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that > curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly." > - Arnold Edinborough > > > On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Mark Newland wrote: > > > Since he has not paid for the services that you provided, he should not own > > the rights to that code or any other work that you have done. This would > > probally mean that you still own the rights to it. What would prevent you > > from marketing the product yourself? > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: > [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Vasile: Well said! CL -----Original Message----- From: pic microcontroller discussion list [EraseMEPICLISTEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Vasile Surducan Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 12:05 AM To: @spam@PICLIST@spam@spam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [PIC]: Contracting job gone wrong Dale, I have readed this topic with interes, maybe because thats is what I hapened every monts. So I understood your pain after 100 hours or more spend to solve a problem for an undecided customer. The only advice i can gave you is to remember that everything you are doing in this life is just for yourself ( and not for money or a better life or something like that, bulshits that your [and mine] capitalist society are learning you from your born day ). With other words, do not count what you left in your back ( a multibilionaire Microsoft company, or nothing ) but the way in\ which you spend your life. If you were happy when your pic project was running is the best payment. Is difficult to understood what I have written here if you are under 40 years old. But probably you'll remember at 60. Best regards, Vasile -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> >Since he has not paid for the services that you provided, > >he should not own the rights to that code or any other work > >that you have done. This would probally mean that you still > >own the rights to it As I understand it, unless you sign over copyright to s/w and/or h/w it remains yours. You could make your own product if - there was no agreement that he had exclusive usage - you had not signed a confidentiality agreement I had a similar situation a few years ago. Put in hundreds of hours work on a product, receiving a token payment on the understanding that when the project was complete I would receive my riches from sales. Of course, it never happened, despite my best efforts to gee up the process. Others also got hurt, including the guy who made up 10 SMT boards. As far as I know, the inventor of the product is dead (he looked at least 500 years old when we started), although I haven't bothered to get in touch so as not to get all frustrated again I have all original material and what I think is the cheapest and most efficient way to do it. I could sue his ass (if he's not metabolically challenged that is), but that would mean so much work and raking up it hardly seems worth it. As Vasile said, sometimes you just have to grin and bear it and value the learning experience. Be nice to get paid for it too of course -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

This is EXACTLY what's happening with me. I wrote an image (object) extraction system. The clients management is in an arguement and neither wants to pay, both are playing me (the contractor) as the pawn. So, now I have an system. So, I'm going to go into selling it for myself. There was no clause in the contract against seeking to sell to others, besides they never honored the contract anyway. Also the code I delivered earlier (and was paid) was not within a contract and in that condition, the code is owned by the person who wrote it. Damn greedy companies anyway. they make alot off of our brows and pay us nothing for it, yet they turn around and sell it for way too much. Open Source is Civilized! Thaddeus "Peter L. Peres" wrote: {Quote hidden}> >Sounds like a great clause to put into any future development contract. > > > >Mark Newland wrote: > > > >>Since he has not paid for the services that you provided, he should not > >>own >>the rights to that code or any other work that you have done. > >This >would >>probally mean that you still own the rights to it. What > >would prevent >you from marketing the product yourself? > > Actually I heard that a small number of open source designs started out as > designs that werenot paid for promptly ... > > Peter > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email TakeThisOuTlistserv.....TakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body