Searching \ for '[OT] was PIC field programming of flash-based 18Fs' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: techref.massmind.org/techref/microchip/devprogs.htm?key=programming
Search entire site for: 'was PIC field programming of flash-based 18Fs'.

Exact match. Not showing close matches.
PICList Thread
'[OT] was PIC field programming of flash-based 18Fs'
2006\04\07@034405 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> I hope you are not running $Windoze on the SBC,
> its a quick way to commit business suicide.
> I've seen several people go under this way. ..

Really? I know the ticket scanning machines in the London underground have a
Windows NT SBC in each ticket machine. I assume they keep up with the
current flavour of NT for them, but when I looked at a job with the company
that built the machines they were using NT4.

It strikes me that most of the problem with using Windows in this manner is
to tie it down appropriately, and not use the general release one would load
on a PC. There must be a heap of drivers that would normally be loaded that
could be removed for SBC use.

2006\04\07@095135 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>>I hope you are not running $Windoze on the SBC,
>>its a quick way to commit business suicide.
>>I've seen several people go under this way. ..
>>    
>>
>
>Really? I know the ticket scanning machines in the London underground have a
>Windows NT SBC in each ticket machine. I assume they keep up with the
>current flavour of NT for them, but when I looked at a job with the company
>that built the machines they were using NT4.
>
>  
>
That's the first sucessful embedded application I've ever heard of.
Thanks for
sharing.

Over here in the colonies, the killer (literally) app is "voting
machines". Windows
has managed to sink every version of voting machine designed.  The
latest news is
that only the non-Windows version seems to work reliably. Duh..

Just this morning, I noticed a failure with a USB-COMport which worked fine
all last week, but just managed to fail on my brand-new XP that still
has that new-PC
smell that the Chinese spray into the box before they seal it up. I will
tinker with
it all weekend, and finally it will "start working" on Monday. watch.

>It strikes me that most of the problem with using Windows in this manner is
>to tie it down appropriately, and not use the general release one would load
>on a PC. There must be a heap of drivers that would normally be loaded that
>could be removed for SBC use.
>
>  
>
Yes, there is an embedded form of Windows that trims out most of the
untested fluff. I
forget what it is called now... and I really don't care..

--Bob

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
spam_OUTattachTakeThisOuTspamengineer.cotse.net .
1-520-850-1673 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2006\04\07@100734 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
On 4/7/06, Bob Axtell <.....engineerKILLspamspam@spam@cotse.net> wrote:
> Yes, there is an embedded form of Windows that trims out most of the
> untested fluff. I
> forget what it is called now... and I really don't care..

Well, there is EmbeddedXP. Though as one of the companies I consulted
found out, there are issues when you try to run a full user system on
it. They had a product that was based on regular XP, then decided to
move it to EmbeddedXP. The problem? Embedded doesn't have most of the
drivers...so when the users tried to plug in their printers...uh oh.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2006\04\07@105630 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Alan,

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 08:44:01 +0100, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

> > I hope you are not running $Windoze on the SBC,
> > its a quick way to commit business suicide.
> > I've seen several people go under this way. ..
>
> Really? I know the ticket scanning machines in the London underground have a
> Windows NT SBC in each ticket machine. I assume they keep up with the
> current flavour of NT for them,

I wouldn't assume that *at all*!

> but when I looked at a job with the company that built the machines they were using NT4.

Quite!  A few months ago I made the mistake of using a "self service checkout" at Marks & Spencer, for a few
food items.  20 minutes later I was still there :-#  It swallowed my credit card with no indication that it
had noticed it, and no effort by me or the girl looking after 4 of these machines would give it back.  In the
end she called someone who looked round surrupticiously, opened the case, partly-unplugged a cable, and my
card came out.  He then power-cycled it, and lo and behold, it booted Windows NT4!

I've been meaning to send a letter to their head office (where I worked for a time as a consultant on a couple
of projects) and complain about my wasted time and the ill-advisedness of using Windows in the first place,
and a 6+ year-old version at that, on a new machine... but I'm hopeless at complaining so I probably never
will.

On the other hand, flying on a 757 from Florida to New york recently, the seat-back screen for the empty seat
next to me kept trying to boot Linux, but locking up before it finished.  I think it was a memory problem, but
I'm no Linux expert and the text was really tiny anyway!

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\07@110423 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Bob,

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 06:51:36 -0700, Bob Axtell wrote:
>...
> Over here in the colonies, the killer (literally) app is "voting machines".

Ah, we've got round that problem by not having machines - you mark your cross with a pencil on a piece of
paper and post it in a slot.  Never been known to fail yet (you're allowed another pencil if that fails :-)  
The fastest constituencies manage to announce a result within about three or four hours of the ballots
closing, usually.  By breakfast the next morning the overall result is pretty-much settled, so it doesn't seem
we suffer in the time it takes by using this ancient method!

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\07@113625 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 4/7/06, Alan B. Pearce <A.B.PearcespamKILLspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
> > I hope you are not running $Windoze on the SBC,
> > its a quick way to commit business suicide.
> > I've seen several people go under this way. ..
>
> Really? I know the ticket scanning machines in the London underground have a
> Windows NT SBC in each ticket machine. I assume they keep up with the
> current flavour of NT for them, but when I looked at a job with the company
> that built the machines they were using NT4.
>

There are many special purpose machines which are running Windows.
For examples, quite some ATMs are running Windows.

In Singapore, the library borrowing machines are running Windows.
Most of the information kiosks here are running Windows as well.

I've also seen quite some POS machines in the supermarkets
running Redhat Linux (from Simens).

I've seen both crashed though.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\07@120909 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

>On 4/7/06, Alan B. Pearce <.....A.B.PearceKILLspamspam.....rl.ac.uk> wrote:
>  
>
>>>I hope you are not running $Windoze on the SBC,
>>>its a quick way to commit business suicide.
>>>I've seen several people go under this way. ..
>>>      
>>>
>>Really? I know the ticket scanning machines in the London underground have a
>>Windows NT SBC in each ticket machine. I assume they keep up with the
>>current flavour of NT for them, but when I looked at a job with the company
>>that built the machines they were using NT4.
>>
>>    
>>
>
>There are many special purpose machines which are running Windows.
>For examples, quite some ATMs are running Windows.
>  
>
The few instances where Windows is acceptable is where the transaction is
departmented. This allows Windows to reboot often whenever a watchdog
flag is not toggled within the main application. Between customers on an
ATM, Windows can normally reboot without an issue. I designed one of these
addon 8-bit watchdog cards in the old days.

But an application with continuous use, like a voting machine, is doomed
because Windows problems can't be corrected  often enough to provide
stability. It was especially true in the Win98 "memory leak" days; if you
ran Win98 long enough, it simply ran out of memory, like a truck engine
with an oil leak.

--Bob

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
EraseMEattachspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTengineer.cotse.net .
1-520-850-1673 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2006\04\07@130818 by William Killian

flavicon
face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu [@spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu] On
Behalf
{Quote hidden}

There are a few.  Not great machines but some set top boxes (cable and
satellite receivers) have the user interface portion run on embedded
Windows.

> Over here in the colonies, the killer (literally) app is "voting
> machines". Windows
> has managed to sink every version of voting machine designed.  The
> latest news is
> that only the non-Windows version seems to work reliably. Duh..

Ah, the easy to hack machines; yeah aren't they great?

[...]

> >It strikes me that most of the problem with using Windows in this
manner
> is
> >to tie it down appropriately, and not use the general release one
would
> load
> >on a PC. There must be a heap of drivers that would normally be
loaded
{Quote hidden}

Oh but it's a good name.  Or at least the old name.  Windows CE -
usually written WinCE...

It was replaced by Windows XPE (XP Embedded - boring)

XPE is really screwed up IMHO.  Okay IMO not so humble.

I work for a class 2 (bingo based) slot machine company. We are
attempting to use it (and not completely unsuccessfully) by having a
boot disk that is really just flash.  It loads and crashes when it tries
to write to its boot disk.

Embedded Windows nearly sank (well it hasn't really recovered so it
might not be mere nearly) Bally Gaming when they spent months trying to
do a new Windows based slot machine with USB devices instead of RS-232.
With contractors in from Micro$oft they still were over a years late
when they cancelled it.  No idea how late it would have been if ever
delivered.  To replace it Bally instead bought a company to get a Linux
based platform.

Other class 2 slots use windows but no class 3 that I know of.  Class 3
is Vegas/Atlantic City style. Class 2 is pseudo slot machines fronting
for bingo or pull tab lottery machines.  Class 2 machines are
notoriously bad.




-------------------------------------  Notice of Confidentiality ----------------------------------------------------------
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
KILLspampostmasterKILLspamspamvgt.net. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the
individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or
copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by
mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified
that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information
is strictly prohibited.

2006\04\07@153349 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
William Killian wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I remember that one, now. Lotsa laughs...

>It was replaced by Windows XPE (XP Embedded - boring)
>
>XPE is really screwed up IMHO.  Okay IMO not so humble.
>  
>
You really have a bad attitude, Bill. Musta spent a lot of nights up
scratching your head, right? <G>

{Quote hidden}

I'd heard about Bally's shot at Windows, but didn't know of the USB
aspect. what was
it being used for?.

A few others failed, too. I helped a BIG company extract itself from a
unworkable
Windows design (I located where the bugs were so that when they pulled
the plug
on their designers they wouldn't get sued. It's EASY to find bugs when
Windows is
concerned. They didn't get sued, either. Their loss was $4M.)

>Other class 2 slots use windows but no class 3 that I know of.  Class 3
>is Vegas/Atlantic City style. Class 2 is pseudo slot machines fronting
>for bingo or pull tab lottery machines.  Class 2 machines are
>notoriously bad.
>  
>
I don't think any high-end Windows slot machines ever passed State
Gaming License
requirements.

I didn't know you were a casino designer, too. We might have crossed
paths at some
point. Ever get over to Cripple Creek? I'm not doing anything in the
gaming industry
now except throwing craps every 3-4 months.<g>

--Bob

{Quote hidden}

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
RemoveMEattachspamTakeThisOuTengineer.cotse.net .
1-520-850-1673 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2006\04\07@164408 by William Killian

flavicon
face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu] On
Behalf
{Quote hidden}

Well the job change will hopefully fix all that.

> >Embedded Windows nearly sank (well it hasn't really recovered so it
> >might not be mere nearly) Bally Gaming when they spent months trying
to
> >do a new Windows based slot machine with USB devices instead of
RS-232.
> >With contractors in from Micro$oft they still were over a years late
> >when they cancelled it.  No idea how late it would have been if ever
> >delivered.  To replace it Bally instead bought a company to get a
Linux
> >based platform.
> >
> >
> >
> I'd heard about Bally's shot at Windows, but didn't know of the USB
> aspect. what was
> it being used for?.

Instead of RS-232 to talk to all the printers, coin hoppers, ancillary
processors (protocol translator thingie I can't divulge much about)
rather than continue the proliferation of DUARTs on the older platform
they wanted to use the bus nature of USB to reduce chip count I believe.

>  A few others failed, too. I helped a BIG company extract itself from
a
> unworkable
> Windows design (I located where the bugs were so that when they pulled
> the plug
> on their designers they wouldn't get sued. It's EASY to find bugs when
> Windows is
> concerned. They didn't get sued, either. Their loss was $4M.)

Ouch but less than what Bally lost with 20-30 engineers including
contractors over some 2 years and other lost development costs.

Only thing I heard they salvaged was that aforementioned thingie.  Still
under the non-disclosure about that - not that it is really all that
secret once they sold a system with it.

> >Other class 2 slots use windows but no class 3 that I know of.  Class
3
> >is Vegas/Atlantic City style. Class 2 is pseudo slot machines
fronting
{Quote hidden}

Only been at it for about 2 1/2 years first in Vegas and now in Virginia
for a couple more weeks.  I think it did come up a few months ago.

Haven't been to Cripple Creek...




-------------------------------------  Notice of Confidentiality ----------------------------------------------------------
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the
individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
RemoveMEpostmasterEraseMEspamEraseMEvgt.net. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the
individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or
copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by
mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified
that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information
is strictly prohibited.

2006\04\07@212451 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 4/8/06, Bob Axtell <RemoveMEengineerspam_OUTspamKILLspamcotse.net> wrote:
> But an application with continuous use, like a voting machine, is doomed
> because Windows problems can't be corrected  often enough to provide
> stability. It was especially true in the Win98 "memory leak" days; if you
> ran Win98 long enough, it simply ran out of memory, like a truck engine
> with an oil leak.
>

This is true. I would normally reboot Win98SE every now and then.
"Please try to reboot your PC and then see how things going" is one
of the most effective way of supporting other guys. "Please backup your
data and reinstall your Win98 OS" is another good advise as well. ;-)
But "Please upgrade to Windows 2k/XP" is much better advice.

But Windows 2k/XP are much better and I no longer to reboot
Windows XP desktop during normal working days even we have
some nasty in-house programs which slow down the system and
crash quite often.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\08@033140 by Peter

picon face

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006, Josh Koffman wrote:

> Well, there is EmbeddedXP. Though as one of the companies I consulted
> found out, there are issues when you try to run a full user system on
> it. They had a product that was based on regular XP, then decided to
> move it to EmbeddedXP. The problem? Embedded doesn't have most of the
> drivers...so when the users tried to plug in their printers...uh oh.

Do you need to buy extra licenses if you add a second keyboard or
display ? ;-) What about deployment, do you have to click on the EULA
and install manually every copy, or is it ok to gang flash 10 units in
parallel without the feds knocking your door down ?

Peter

2006\04\08@035000 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
On 4/8/06, Peter <RemoveMEplpTakeThisOuTspamspamactcom.co.il> wrote:
> Do you need to buy extra licenses if you add a second keyboard or
> display ? ;-) What about deployment, do you have to click on the EULA
> and install manually every copy, or is it ok to gang flash 10 units in
> parallel without the feds knocking your door down ?

Not sure about the first question. The company in question used Norton
to distribute a drive image that rewrote the entire hard drive of the
machine.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2006\04\10@053054 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Ever get over to Cripple Creek?

That out in the mining area back of Colorado? Remember going there in '88.

2006\04\10@194543 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>>Ever get over to Cripple Creek?
>>    
>>
>
>That out in the mining area back of Colorado? Remember going there in '88.
>  
>
9500 ft elevation, if memory serves. I won $25000 at Cripple Creek's
Desert Rose Casino. there, on Sept 25, 1995.
What a hoot! Really gasping for air, at that altitude... could hardly
sleep.

Ya know, the state of Colorado still owes me over $1000 for overpaid
income taxes. is it too late to collect?

--Bob

--
Note: To protect our network,
attachments must be sent to
EraseMEattachspamspamspamBeGoneengineer.cotse.net .
1-520-850-1673 USA/Canada
http://beam.to/azengineer

2006\04\13@085704 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 4/7/06, Josh Koffman <RemoveMEjoshybearKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/7/06, Bob Axtell <engineerSTOPspamspamspam_OUTcotse.net> wrote:
> > Yes, there is an embedded form of Windows that trims out most of the
> > untested fluff. I
> > forget what it is called now... and I really don't care..
>
> Well, there is EmbeddedXP. Though as one of the companies I consulted
> found out, there are issues when you try to run a full user system on
> it. They had a product that was based on regular XP, then decided to
> move it to EmbeddedXP. The problem? Embedded doesn't have most of the
> drivers...so when the users tried to plug in their printers...uh oh.
>
> Josh

Today I saw quite some interesting boards (used in industry automation
systems: IO module for PLCs) running ARM 9 MCU and Windows CE. They
are from a respectable US company and I guess Windows CE is good
enough for mission critical applications.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\13@121432 by kravnus wolf

picon face
I believe any software for critical systems has to be
evaluated from top to bottom. Boeing does it for their
embedded software. Does Win CE have such an open view
to their OS src code?

john

--- Xiaofan Chen <spamBeGonexiaofancSTOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\04\13@144445 by Peter

picon face

On Thu, 13 Apr 2006, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Today I saw quite some interesting boards (used in industry automation
> systems: IO module for PLCs) running ARM 9 MCU and Windows CE. They
> are from a respectable US company and I guess Windows CE is good
> enough for mission critical applications.

If I understand right, this is the online programmer/terminal for a PLC
that does the real work, no ?

Peter

2006\04\13@213248 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 4/14/06, Peter <@spam@plp@spam@spamspam_OUTactcom.co.il> wrote:
>
> If I understand right, this is the online programmer/terminal for a PLC
> that does the real work, no ?
>
> Peter

They are the I/O modules which deals with the field input (can be
temperature sensor, binary sensor, ...), process them and
communicate with the upper PLC/DCS through the communication
backplane (DeviceNet or others). I think they can use
either Linux and WinCE since the chip vendor supports both. I will
think both Linux and WinCE are good enough for them but the
engineer may be more familiar with WinCE.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\04\17@210822 by Aaron

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> Today I saw quite some interesting boards (used in industry automation
> systems: IO module for PLCs) running ARM 9 MCU and Windows CE. They
> are from a respectable US company and I guess Windows CE is good
> enough for mission critical applications.
>
> Regards,
> Xiaofan




Are you able to name the manufacturer?

Aaron

More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2006 , 2007 only
- Today
- New search...