Post by thread:[OT] US falls behind on sustainability, AGAIN

CHINA passes us, for crying out loud! http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/09/asia/plastic.php FWIW, I haven't taken a bag away from a retail store more than twice in the last 18 months, INCLUDING bags for produce and bulk pack, scoop-your-own goods. It isn't that hard, my bags NEVER rip and dump my groceries in the snow, and it feels good to contribute. The hardest part is getting that pre-programmed checker-bot behind the till not to just dump stuff into the bag... Mike H. PS, yes, I know, on the whole it's a tiny thing for China to do, but still...

Well, at less than $0.026 each (2.6 cents apiece, in today's depressed dollar - surely much cheaper in bulk from or within China) I wonder if it's really going to make much of an impact unless it becomes socially unacceptable to be seen with them. Even if you get a lot of food, you're paying less than a quarter. Although an unintended side effect is since they are paying for it, customers will complain when the bags fail, and when cashiers double bag items. I expect there's going to be some interesting outcomes. I wouldn't mind seeing it happen here, but where should we stop? Plastic bags are an example of some environmental cost that we are oblivious too as it's long been considered overhead. Could we also see in the distant future being charged for other overhead items that impact the environment and energy usage? As we move about the store, lights come on where we're at and a little meter ticks away on the shopping cart, which also measure how long we've kept the freezer door open getting things out. Stores would hate that, since they do everything they can to keep people in the store browsing. -Adam On 1/9/08, Mike Hord <spam_OUTmike.hordTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> CHINA passes us, for crying out loud! > > http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/09/asia/plastic.php > > FWIW, I haven't taken a bag away from a retail store more > than twice in the last 18 months, INCLUDING bags for > produce and bulk pack, scoop-your-own goods. It isn't that > hard, my bags NEVER rip and dump my groceries in the > snow, and it feels good to contribute. > > The hardest part is getting that pre-programmed > checker-bot behind the till not to just dump stuff into the > bag... > > Mike H. > > PS, yes, I know, on the whole it's a tiny thing for China to > do, but still... > -

M. Adam Davis wrote: > I expect there's going to be some interesting outcomes. I wouldn't mind > seeing it happen here, but where should we stop? Plastic bags are an > example of some environmental cost that we are oblivious too as it's > long been considered overhead. Could we also see in the distant future > being charged for other overhead items that impact the environment and > energy usage? As we move about the store, lights come on where we're at > and a little meter ticks away on the shopping cart, which also measure > how long we've kept the freezer door open getting things out. Stores > would hate that, since they do everything they can to keep people in the > store browsing. Interesting ideas. FWIW, in Germany it's been a loooong time that grocery stores don't provide free plastic bags. You usually can buy one (if you forgot to BYOB :), but these are rather solid and thought to be reused. I can't remember a big ruckus when they stopped handing out free ones. AFAIK they don't charge yet for opening the freezer door :) Gerhard

On Wed, 2008-01-09 at 17:25 -0200, Gerhard Fiedler wrote: > Interesting ideas. > > FWIW, in Germany it's been a loooong time that grocery stores don't provide > free plastic bags. You usually can buy one (if you forgot to BYOB :), but > these are rather solid and thought to be reused. I can't remember a big > ruckus when they stopped handing out free ones. > > AFAIK they don't charge yet for opening the freezer door :) FWIW I don't even use bags, I just empty the shopping carts contents into the back of my car, and just carry everything inside when I get home. Granted, this only works if you're not buying enough food to feed an army, it's just a weeks food for my brother and I. I find it amazingly inefficient how we spend the time putting everything in a cart, empty it all onto the belt at checkout, put it all back into the cart, and finally empty it into the car, what a waste of time! :) TTYL

> >FWIW, in Germany it's been a loooong time that grocery stores don't provide >free plastic bags. You usually can buy one (if you forgot to BYOB :), but >these are rather solid and thought to be reused. I can't remember a big >ruckus when they stopped handing out free ones. > >AFAIK they don't charge yet for opening the freezer door :) We save our plastic bags from the store, and use them as trash bags in various small trash cans (bathrooms, etc). Saves us from having to buy special bags for those cans. -- --- Chris Smolinski Black Cat Systems http://www.blackcatsystems.com

On Jan 9, 2008 9:26 AM, M. Adam Davis <.....stienmanKILLspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote: > Well, at less than $0.026 each (2.6 cents apiece, in today's depressed > dollar - surely much cheaper in bulk from or within China) I wonder if > it's really going to make much of an impact unless it becomes socially > unacceptable to be seen with them. As James says, "follow the money". For things like this, mass-produced with no real cost related to intellectual property or skill of the maker, money = energy = greenhouse gas emissions. The US goes through 380 BILLION of these things every year. If Target (e.g.) pays 2.6c per, then we're still talking about $10e9 each year. With oil at $100 per barrel, that's 100 million barrels. Granted, that's only a 5-day supply for the United States, but it's just another example of the low-hanging fruit we could trim to take steps in the right direction for climate change. Mike H.

At 04:01 PM 1/9/2008, you wrote: > > > >FWIW, in Germany it's been a loooong time that grocery stores don't provide > >free plastic bags. You usually can buy one (if you forgot to BYOB :), but > >these are rather solid and thought to be reused. I can't remember a big > >ruckus when they stopped handing out free ones. > > > >AFAIK they don't charge yet for opening the freezer door :) > >We save our plastic bags from the store, and use them as trash bags >in various small trash cans (bathrooms, etc). Saves us from having to >buy special bags for those cans. Ditto for us, plus we use them for dog waste- a couple fit easily in the pocket. I don't think we hardly ever throw the bags out empty, and they are very, very light (i.e. not much material goes into them). Perhaps more energy and fossil fuels is used for the alternatives. We got a little storage bin that fits a kitchen cabinet door under the sink and bags from groceries get stuffed in there. Stuff from club stores doesn't have bags- so either a scrap cardboard tray (which goes into recycling) or just carry the stuff if there isn't too much. I really think they're barking up the wrong tree with this stuff.. PET bottled water uses WAY more plastic, and as for China.. they must use hundreds of millions of EPS (styrofoam) trays a day. Non-grocery bags are more of a nuisance-- being different sizes, and some of them are quite thick and fancy (eg. metallics and so on). The Apple store has some of the most extravagant ones- they are little backpacks with cords. >Best regards, Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speffKILLspaminterlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

>FWIW, in Germany it's been a loooong time that grocery stores >don't provide free plastic bags. You usually can buy one (if >you forgot to BYOB :), but these are rather solid and thought >to be reused. I can't remember a big ruckus when they stopped >handing out free ones. Ireland has made plastic ones illegal AIUI, about 12-18 months ago, which did cause a bit of a ruckus. In the UK, Tesco supermarkets give 'Green loyalty points' for re-using bags. You get a point for each bag or other container you re-use, so bottle carriers and cardboard boxes count as well. We tend to get around 8 to 10 'green' points each major shop this way.

On Jan 9, 2008 4:41 PM, Spehro Pefhany <.....speffKILLspam.....interlog.com> wrote: > > > >We save our plastic bags from the store, and use them as trash bags > >in various small trash cans (bathrooms, etc). Saves us from having to > >buy special bags for those cans. > > Ditto for us, plus we use them for dog waste- a couple fit easily in the > pocket. I don't think we hardly ever throw the bags out empty, and they are > very, very light (i.e. not much material goes into them). Perhaps more > energy and fossil fuels is used for the alternatives. I do this as well. Eventually, microbes are going to evolve that digest plastic. For the ocean's sake, hopefully sooner than later. :) The general concensus is that paper bags require more energy to manufacture than plastic. I've also been looking at the cornstarch biodegradable bags, they are able to stand up to a similar amount of abuse as plastic, and apparently they require less energy to manufacture them vs plastic. I'm going to be composting some of them this spring to test how quickly they break down. Alex

> The general concensus is that paper bags require more energy to > manufacture than plastic. > > I've also been looking at the cornstarch biodegradable bags, they are > able to stand up to a similar amount of abuse as plastic, and > apparently they require less energy to manufacture them vs plastic. > I'm going to be composting some of them this spring to test how > quickly they break down. Paper or plastic? The right answer is "neither- I brought my own". Dog poo in your yard gets mixed into your compost heap, and when you're out on walkies, the little shovel you have lets you dig a small hole and put the poo in and cover it up (although that's sometimes impossible- for instance, in the winter around here). The solutions which are going to foment a truly sustainable world are going to sound so foreign to (most of) us as to be seemingly impossible. However, the children of your children's grandchildren will think nothing of them. IF they exist... Mike H.

> >The right answer is "neither- I brought my own". Dog poo in your > >yard gets mixed into your compost heap, > > Which I hope you are not going to use on food crops. Why not? Properly composted waste (animal OR human) is perfectly safe to use in your garden, even for food crops. Modern flush toilets are for lazy people, the same as the plastic bags are. We've elected to push the problem onto someone else, dump the poisons into our water supply, and waste massive amounts of energy to collect, clean, and pump to heights above the average home enough water to rinse our poop away. Someday lazy will no longer be an option. For myself, I'd rather spend an extra 10-12 hours a week on growing, harvesting, cooking, and canning my own food, using my family's waste as the bio-input to the system, than live in the world which we are rapidly creating. Mike H.

> > The general concensus is that paper bags require more energy > > to manufacture than plastic > The right answer is "neither- I brought my own" I re-use the same few plastic bags, generally at the retailers where they first came from. It makes me feel a little better and gives the till staff something to think about, seeing the same bags back again and again. Eventually they do go in the rubbish, but at least a tenth as often as if I got new bags every time I shopped. As I carry a back-pack most of the time, it's not really a bother to do it this way. As long as I've got the receipt I don't need the goods store-bagged at all The supermarkets in NZ offer cloth bags as an alternative. They last a long time. A phase-out of plastic bags started a while back. Staff generally ask if you want a bag. If they don't, I decline anyway Once upon a very long time ago, I was a delivery boy for a grocer, with a bike piled high with cardboard boxes (shades of Open All Hours). Not a plastic bag in sight http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/2/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10486295 Aust govt will begin a national phase out on plastic bags We would like to see the phase out implemented by 2008 ... that is absolutely critical" "Mr Evans said the government was playing "popular politics" and the emphasis should be on litter management" Good point

Mike Hord wrote: >> The general concensus is that paper bags require more energy to >> manufacture than plastic. >> >> I've also been looking at the cornstarch biodegradable bags, they are >> able to stand up to a similar amount of abuse as plastic, and >> apparently they require less energy to manufacture them vs plastic. >> I'm going to be composting some of them this spring to test how >> quickly they break down. > > Paper or plastic? > > The right answer is "neither- I brought my own". Dog poo in your > yard gets mixed into your compost heap, and when you're out on > walkies, the little shovel you have lets you dig a small hole and put > the poo in and cover it up (although that's sometimes impossible- > for instance, in the winter around here). Carnivorous animal feces should not be added to a compost pile. I currently forget the reason but I know it's not good for the compost. Note adding meat scraps is also not recommended for the same reason and that it will attract carnivorous animals. What I do remember that decomposing carnivorous animal feces will burn a plants roots and I think it sucks nitrogen out of the pile. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry EraseMEncherryspam_OUTTakeThisOuTlinuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

> > >The right answer is "neither- I brought my own". Dog poo in your >> >yard gets mixed into your compost heap, >> >> Which I hope you are not going to use on food crops. > >Why not? Properly composted waste (animal OR human) is perfectly >safe to use in your garden, even for food crops. > >Modern flush toilets are for lazy people, the same as the plastic bags >are. We've elected to push the problem onto someone else, dump >the poisons into our water supply, and waste massive amounts of >energy to collect, clean, and pump to heights above the average home >enough water to rinse our poop away. Our human waste goes into an underground tank, where it is treated by assorted bacteria. We also get our water from a well in the ground, and I'm sure some of the treated water from the former eventually gets to the latter. Just because something is convenient doesn't mean it is evil. -- --- Chris Smolinski Black Cat Systems http://www.blackcatsystems.com

> Carnivorous animal feces should not be added to a compost pile. > I currently forget the reason but I know it's not good for the > compost. Note adding meat scraps is also not recommended for > the same reason and that it will attract carnivorous animals. I picked from gardening shows what shouldn't go into compost heaps. ISTR that worms don't care much for fats and oils and, unprocessed, they'll turn to rancid lumps. Used to have a heap in the corner but by neglect it's turned into a well-fed jungle. It doesn't look too bad actually, some huge lilies in a vast clump and a banana tree as the centre-piece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost "most small-scale domestic systems will not reach sufficiently high temperatures to kill pathogens and weed seeds or deter vermin, so pet droppings, scraps of meat, and dairy products are often best left to operators of high-rate, thermophilic composting systems"

Marcel Duchamp wrote: > Neil Cherry wrote: >> Carnivorous animal feces > > Is that "Carnivorous-animal feces" > -or is it- > "Carnivorous animal-feces"? <humor> I R am engineer, don't ask me about gramar (or spellin ;-). Heck I'm still trying to figure out its, it's, and its' ;-). </humor> Let just say that writing a book taught me a lot of lessons and the fact that I don't know grammar and composition very well ( though I have gotten better at it). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherryspam_OUTlinuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

> "Carnivorous-animal feces" or "Carnivorous animal-feces"? It'll be a dark day when turds ambush pedestrians, poised to nip an ankle Man-eating shark or man eating shark Stainless steel sinks Cork floats > Let just say that writing a book taught me a lot of lessons and > the fact that I don't know grammar and composition very well > (though I have gotten better at it) Something at which you have gotten better. At

Jinx wrote: >> "Carnivorous-animal feces" or "Carnivorous animal-feces"? > > It'll be a dark day when turds ambush pedestrians, poised to nip > an ankle DOH! > Man-eating shark or man eating shark > Stainless steel sinks > Cork floats I plead guilty, at least I didn't take it with asprin and the elderly, a Celebrex commercial. I nearly blew the tea out of my noise when I heard that. >> Let just say that writing a book taught me a lot of lessons and >> the fact that I don't know grammar and composition very well >> (though I have gotten better at it) > > Something at which you have gotten better. At Uhm maybe not ... :-/ -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry @spam@ncherryKILLspamlinuxha.com http://www.linuxha.com/ Main site http://linuxha.blogspot.com/ My HA Blog Author of: Linux Smart Homes For Dummies

Joe - > Something at which you have gotten better. At "Something up with which I shall not put" ... W. S. Churchill, on a similar matter. Sorry to hear about Sir Edmund Hillary. One of my earliest memories is perusing the issue of "Life" magazine which featured photos of Sir Edmund and Tenzing Norgay Sherpa on Everest's summit. The world's a poorer place. Jack

> Sorry to hear about Sir Edmund Hillary pssssst, 'ere a minute I'm English. I was rooting for Mallory in '24 But Sir Ed always maintained that, whether or not Mallory got to the top 29 years before, a successful climb includes a safe return On the radio yesterday someone suggested Richard Pearce as another ground-breaking New Zealander. It's claimed he flew before the Wright Brothers. Which may be true, but it wasn't exactly controlled flight. More, er, ground-breaking I think it's reasonable to expect the job to be completed to get bragging rights, otherwise you could just shoot someone up to Mars right now on a one-way ticket Regardless, Sir Ed was a great and unpretentious humanitarian (the only living person on a bank note) and his passing is big news

You're wasting your time, Joe - At least on me. The world needs more bee-keepers. Jack On 1/11/08, Jinx <KILLspamjoecolquittKILLspamclear.net.nz> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Sorry to hear about Sir Edmund Hillary > > pssssst, 'ere a minute > > I'm English. I was rooting for Mallory in '24 > > But Sir Ed always maintained that, whether or not Mallory got > to the top 29 years before, a successful climb includes a safe > return > > On the radio yesterday someone suggested Richard Pearce as > another ground-breaking New Zealander. It's claimed he flew > before the Wright Brothers. Which may be true, but it wasn't > exactly controlled flight. More, er, ground-breaking > > I think it's reasonable to expect the job to be completed to get > bragging rights, otherwise you could just shoot someone up to > Mars right now on a one-way ticket > > Regardless, Sir Ed was a great and unpretentious humanitarian > (the only living person on a bank note) and his passing is big > news > > -

> The world needs more bee-keepers. I hear that's a risky business to be in these days. Saw an ABC item a couple of months ago about pesticides, mites and wild bees making a big dent in commercial bee numbers. The guys who rent bees to farmers and orchardists are really struggling. Hives are dying off in huge numbers Perversely, getting it back on topic, the price of produce will probably go up so much, because of the rising cost of pollination, it may impact on the number of plastic bags needed

> I hear that's a risky business to be in these days. Saw an ABC > item a couple of months ago about pesticides, mites and wild > bees making a big dent in commercial bee numbers. The guys > who rent bees to farmers and orchardists are really struggling. > Hives are dying off in huge numbers Back to sustainability...the hives that AREN'T dying off are the organically farmed ones. Organic has a bad names as something "pink tofu" eaters do to waste money and be somehow healthier. The bottom line is that organic is healthier for the planet, too- it means no massive organo-phosphate runoff into the water supply, no questionable pesticides being sprayed into the food chain, no petrochemicals being used up for fertilizers, and smaller production operations run by people who care (sometimes- YMMV) and who earn a living wage (again, YMMV). Organic is also sustainable. Mike H.