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PICList Thread
'[OT] Top posting and the list'
2011\04\02@235014 by V G

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Is top posting allowed on the list?

Also, since so many people don't like it, why do most clients do it by
default, and it's not an option in many, either

2011\04\03@000300 by Bob Blick

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On Sat, 02 Apr 2011 23:49 -0400, "V G"  wrote:
> Is top posting allowed on the list?

Both top, bottom and inline posting are allowed.

> Also, since so many people don't like it, why do most clients do it by
> default, and it's not an option in many, either.

Because top posting is preferred by the people sending emails, not
necessarily by recipients? Dunno.

Bob


-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

2011\04\03@000656 by mch

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As for why, because it's much easier to read than having to scroll down to read a reply. I know of no email
client that opens emails and automatically scrolls to the end of them. Also because replies are often cut off
of some programs on some devices that only show the first X characters of a message. My iPhone is like
that. On those devices, you don't "get" to see the reply at all (depending how you get the message).
Those are the technical reasons who top posting is better.

That said, I also don't agree that any medium should have a hard rule about posting, spelling, or grammar.

For those who don't like how others post, well, not everyone will like everything everyone else does - such is life.
Many times I open an email, and if I don't see a reply, I hit the delete button. That's my personal choice.

Joe M.


On Sat 02/04/11 11:49 PM , V G spam_OUTx.solarwind.xTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com sent:
> Is top posting allowed on the list?
>
> Also, since so many people don't like it, why do most clients do it by
> default, and it's not an option in many, either.
> -

2011\04\03@002459 by IVP

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> Both top, bottom and inline posting are allowed

I'm not fussy, but I suspect what most people really object to
is screeds and screeds of unedited >>>> to find one new line
at the bottom that often adds nothing

Hate it. When I see a mail like that, unless it's something I'm
very interested in, it goes straight to the bin

Please trim posts please. Please

Jo

2011\04\03@003139 by RussellMc

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> > Both top, bottom and inline posting are allowed

> I'm not fussy, but I suspect what most people really object to
> is screeds and screeds of unedited >>>> to find one new line
> at the bottom that often adds nothing

Trimming IS required (or, at least, very very heavily requested.)



2011\04\03@085748 by Herbert Graf

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On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 23:49 -0400, V G wrote:
> Is top posting allowed on the list?

Yes.

> Also, since so many people don't like it, why do most clients do it by
> default, and it's not an option in many, either.

I personally PREFER top posting in my business email. There are a few
reasons:

1) On my smartphone I can quickly read the reply without having to
download the whole message (sometimes the preview shows enough of the
reply for me to get the gist)
2) It's much preferable to having to scroll down to the bottom of a VERY
long thread of emails. Most of my business email does NOT get trimmed,
simply because people cc others into the thread and those would have to
be rebriefed on the whole history. This way they can read the whole
chain in one email and get up to speed. It's wasteful (some emails get
over 100k in size), and can sometimes get out of hand (when images are
included) but it is far outweighed by the benefits in my experience.
3) I get ALOT of email in my professional work that I don't have to
"study", I only jump in when necessary. In those cases I'm not following
the whole thread, I just read a couple lines to ensure I'm not needed
"yet".

Outside of my professional work though I find interleaved replies are
best (as I've done here), with LIBERAL trimming.

TTYL

2011\04\03@095924 by Olin Lathrop

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A: Top posters
Q: Who are the most annoying people on the internet.

V G wrote:
> Is top posting allowed on the list?

Unfortunately yes, but that doesn't make it a good idea or less obnoxious.
It will be a real laugh to see how many people top-post their replies to
your message.  Perhaps you can ask them if mommy knows they're playing with
the 'puter again.

There will always be people who think they are so important that a extra
second on their end properly quoting, trimming, and replying to a post is
worth the aggrevation of 2000 other people that end up reading it.  Or
they're just lazy or dumb.

> Also, since so many people don't like it, why do most clients do it by
> default, and it's not an option in many, either.

Think about what the default should be if you wanted to encourage proper
posting and trimming.  If you put the cusor at the bottom the lazy people
wouldn't trim and you'd get the same thing in forwards instead of reverse
order.  That would be better for short posts, but worse after several layers
of untrimmed replies.

If you do want to do it right, then cursor at top is the best default.  That
way you can work your way down the message, trim what you don't need for
context, and insert replies to the points as they are made.

Are there really any mailers that don't let you chose where to put your
reply?  I find that hard to believe.  Typically, once you do a reply some
sort of edit window comes up that may have the replied-to text seeded in it,
but it's still a edit window you can delete and add things to.

If I was creating a list server, I'd have it add a single footer line to
every post, then refuse replies that contain the footer line in the reply.
Or maybe it would just reject posts that ended in quoted text.  There is
really no excuse for that.

This is all self-evident, but unfortunately the world is full of dumb and
lazy people (who I'm sure will announce themselves by top-posting their
reply to your message, just watch).  So once again, if you want your email
post to be readable by the widest possible audience with the least total
aggrevation:

 1 - Use ASCII PLAIN TEXT.  No fancy encodings, quoted printable,
     base64, etc.  Don't even think about HTML encoding.

 2 - Make sure your lines don't exceed 80 characters.

 3 - TRIM the parts of a message you are not directly replying to or
     that aren't necessary to supply context for what you are saying.

 4 - Add your replies in-line after whatever points you are replying
     to.  If this were a interactive conversation, this is where you'd
     alternate speaking.  Email lists are slower and more batch
     oriented, so each message represents a chunk of back and forth
     conversation.

And now we'll get the usual people crawling out from the corners saying "but
RFCxxxxx says...".  That of course is not the point.  It not about what all
email software is supposed to do according some standard, but what actually
goes on out there.  We're talking about what to do to maximize the
effectiveness of your message, not about writing email software.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000

2011\04\03@101510 by Wouter van Ooijen

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>> Is top posting allowed on the list?
> Unfortunately yes, but that doesn't make it a good idea or less obnoxious..

I too much prefer bottom posting, but I am afraid we are not all gona agree on this. The next best thing is what we do (or should) agree on: TRIM TRIM TRIM TRIM! Trim to the absolute minimum that still avoids mistakes. The part you keep should make clear what argument or statement or position you are responding to, but not more. If you do that the annoying effect of bottom posting almost goes away (top-preferres will agree, but will replace bottom with top).

--
Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2011\04\03@101936 by RussellMc

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1. Note that while Olin's reply contains some good points

       > A: Top posters
       > Q: Who are the most annoying people on the internet.

3.  See eg Herbert's reply for a well reasoned response that is as
    logical as Olin's and which makes a good case,
    *** In some contexts *** ,  for top posting.

5.   If the formating of this paragraph and or # 3. is munted you are probably
    viewing it on a phone whose makers claim it to be smart.

      > V G wrote:
      > > Is top posting allowed on the list?

2. The answer is not 100% cut and dried, despite his assertions au
contraire. His mommy is one smart cookie [tm], but some questionable
stuff still slips through occasionally.

4.  It seems likely that the alternative used here isn't going to cut it.


0 / 6.              Russel

2011\04\03@102155 by RussellMc

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Some readers will agree but,

> Trim to the absolute minimum that still avoids
> mistakes.

will replace "minimum" with "maximum".

Others will but won't.
Others won't but can largely be ignored.



       Russel

2011\04\03@110347 by Oli Glaser

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On 03/04/2011 04:49, V G wrote:
> Is top posting allowed on the list?
>
> Also, since so many people don't like it, why do most clients do it by
> default, and it's not an option in many, either.

Do you really care? ;-)
I generally answer stuff in order or at the bottom, but occasionally I top post if I consider it "works" in whatever context.
Either way, I don't consider someone who does top post to be lazy, dumb or obnoxious.

2011\04\03@125032 by YES NOPE9

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A: Bottom posters.
Q: Who can read from bottom to top  ( i can )
A: Top posters
Q: Who are the most annoying people on the internet.

2011\04\03@190605 by MCH

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too. posting, left to right for allow should we Maybe

Joe M.

YES NOPE9 wrote:
> A: Bottom posters.
> Q: Who can read from bottom to top  ( i can )
> A: Top posters
> Q: Who are the most annoying people on the internet.

2011\04\03@203925 by RussellMc

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> too. posting, left to right for allow should we Maybe

"Interesting. "*
<push><push>
"Reverse Polish would be "
<+>
<X/Y>  [swap]
<+>

____________

People posting replies in Forth will be banned immediately.
People writing replies in LISP will be pitied (and honored).

        R

* " " are used solely to allow extent of strings with leading and/or
trailing spaces to be seen.
String concatenation is assumed to be X + Y.
Y + X could be accommodated

2011\04\04@155743 by John Ferrell

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On 4/3/2011 10:18 AM, RussellMc wrote:
> 1. Note that while Olin's reply contains some good points
>
>          >  A: Top posters
>          >  Q: Who are the most annoying people on the internet.
>
> 3.  See eg Herbert's reply for a well reasoned response that is as
>       logical as Olin's and which makes a good case,
>       *** In some contexts *** ,  for top posting.
>
> 5.   If the formating of
OK, I have set up Thunderbird for bottom posting.

I have retained my HTM format because I don't have the flexibility to change it for just this group and I like it.
I also retained my signature style (including my amateur radio call) because it reveals a little more insight to as to my nature.
--
John Ferrell W8CCW

"In order to seek truth, it is necessary once in the course of our life to doubt, as far as possible, of all things."
--- René Descartes

2011\04\04@160610 by Alex Harford

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On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 12:57 PM, John Ferrell <.....jferrell13KILLspamspam@spam@triad.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I have retained my HTM format because I don't have the flexibility to
> change it for just this group and I like it.

In my version of TBird:
Address Book->piclist->Properties->Contact->Prefers to receive
messages formatted as..

2011\04\05@091804 by John Ferrell

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On 4/4/2011 4:06 PM, Alex Harford wrote:
>
> In my version of TBird:
> Address Book->piclist->Properties->Contact->Prefers to receive
> messages formatted as...

Thank you, I did it!
--
John Ferrell W8CCW

"In order to seek truth, it is necessary once in the course of our life to doubt, as far as possible, of all things."
— René Descartes

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