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PICList Thread
'[OT] Solar Power'
2019\03\02@131900 by Chris Smolinski

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120V US electric user here. I use an electric kettle, I just checked and it is rated 1200W. From theory it should take about 7 minutes to bring about a quart of water up to a boil, which matches my experience of starting it, walking away, and coming back 10 minutes later to find it finished.


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2019\03\17@143226 by Allen Mulvey

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I live in upstate New York, USA. Recently much of our forest
and farmland is being stripped and solar farms are going up.
My daughter, who operates a perennial farm, is concerned
about the tons of herbicide used each year to keep the area
around them clear. Another friend is concerned about the
toxic waste produced when they are damaged or discarded.
They do not track the sun and much of the year they are
covered with ice and snow. Are these things really useful or
are they merely a product of PC government grants. From a
casual perspective, it doesn't seem like they could possibly
be cost effective.


Thanks for your opinions,

Allen

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2019\03\17@145305 by James Cameron

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It depends on the wholesale price of electricity.  In general, they
are effective.

Fight the fight on the other risks; the loss of farmland, the loss of
social connectivity as farms close and farming contractors released,
and the side-effects and cancer risks from herbicides.

Keep the organisations accountable to all relevant environmental
regulations on disposals and land management.

-- James Cameron
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2019\03\17@175720 by RussellMc

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It varies with location. James says solar is economic, and in his case it
is.
In your example I'd expect that it would need special attention to panel
pointing, maintenance, snow clearance and generous feed-in arrangements (or
full grid replacement output) and, probably, somewhat more, to break even.

Here is the mean daily solar insolation for NYNY averaged by month over a
year.
This is at the panel surface, be that surface glass or snow.

Insolation, kWh/m²/day 1.79 2.66 3.66 4.44 5.21 5.70 5.65 5.00 3.98 2.89
1.89 1.57

Average is slightly under 4 kWh/m^2/day.
From here, 7th graph/table, 1st line.

              https://www.gaisma.com/en/location/new-york-ny.html

For comparison, James Cameron's figures are shown alongside NY figures
I've seasonally shifted James' figures to match. Snow would be a miracle at
that location.

NY    1.79 2.66 3.66 4.44 5.21 5.70 5.65 5.00 3.98 2.89 1.89 1.57
OZ    2.87 3.05 3.97 5.17 5.80 6.15 6.62    6.46 5.73 4.99 3.93 3.06

Oz figures are from a coastal location.



               Russell


On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 at 07:36, Allen Mulvey <allenspamspam_OUTamulvey.com> wrote:

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2019\03\17@175720 by Trevor

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Allen Mulvey wrote on 18/03/2019 05:32:
> I live in upstate New York, USA. Recently much of our forest
> and farmland is being stripped and solar farms are going up.
> My daughter, who operates a perennial farm, is concerned
> about the tons of herbicide used each year to keep the area
> around them clear.

I recall reading that at least one new solar "farm" here in Australia
had arranged the solar panels so that sheep could continue to graze the
land. This should address the excessive herbicide issue.

A quick Google turned up this in North Carolina (September 12, 2018):

"Many solar energy companies have started leasing land from farmers to
build solar farms – and hiring sheep (or, more specifically, leasing
flocks from farmers) to control ground cover around their parallel rows
of low-slung solar panels while paying the farmer for use of the land."

See https://cals.ncsu.edu/news/got-sheep-want-a-solar-farm/ for the full
story and contact.



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2019\03\17@184311 by Richard Pope

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Allen,
    It is all about PC. If you planted every square inch of the country with solar farms it still would only be able to supply a fraction of the power needed by our country. Of course you would no longer need any of that power since there would no longer be any homes, business', or industries requiring the energy.
    Is man made climate change happening? No! Are humans influencing climate change? Unknown and Unknowable. The man made climate change hoax is a power grab by the communist aka democrats that are trying to install a totalitarian regime.
 American: Love it or Leave it!
 GOD Bless and GOD Help us,
 rich!

On 3/17/2019 1:32 PM, Allen Mulvey wrote:
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2019\03\17@190049 by James Cameron

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I think by focusing on insolation, Russell has misunderstood my point.
Insolation is a given, and generally not easily changed without
changing location.  Allen is in a fixed location, and is concerned.

What matters most for a given location is the spot price into the
network, the cost of extending the network, and how the price varies
across the insolation curve.

Here's a farm with the panels all facing west instead of solar
optimum.

https://goo.gl/maps/CZ71fMiRjrs

Here's their spot price per megawatt by scheduled demand

https://aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard

So this farm is facing for the evening peak, and can bid into the
market based on generation forecasting and cloud observations.  With
error bars on the forecast, they can potentially limit generation to
avoid hitting over-generation penalties.

https://solcast.com.au/ is a forecasting service I'm familiar with,
and I've been experimenting with the data.

solcast.com.au/utility-scale/short-term-solar-forecasting-core-business-or-distraction/
has an interesting explanation.

It's about the same level of optimisation and engineering that is
applied to grid scale thermal generation, but the fuel price is much
lower.

-- James Cameron
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2019\03\17@201235 by Bob Blick

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I haven't had to put my moderator hat on in quite a while.

Richard,

The Piclist is not the comments section on YouTube. You absolutely may not use it as a forum for your political opinions.

No more warnings. If you feel a need to reply to this email, send it to @spam@piclist-adminKILLspamspammit.edu, NOT publicly to the list.

Everybody else, please tread a tight line. The original poster's email was not as carefully worded as it could have been. That is not an excuse to start swapping paint.

Bob

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2019\03\17@201937 by Richard Pope

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Bob,
    He asked a question and I gave him a legitimate answer. I'm sorry that you are offended by the truth.
American: Love it or Leave it!
GOD Bless and GOD Help us,
rich

On 3/17/2019 7:11 PM, Bob Blick wrote:
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2019\03\17@204030 by Bob Blick

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Sorry, you're out. Your reply should have been to RemoveMEpiclist-adminEraseMEspamEraseMEmit.edu as I had requested.

Bob

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From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamKILLspammit.edu <RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamspammit.edu> on behalf of Richard Pope <EraseMEmechanic_2spamspamspamBeGonecharter.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 5:19 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Solar Power

Bob,
    He asked a question and I gave him a legitimate answer. I'm sorry
that you are offended by the truth.
American: Love it or Leave it!
GOD Bless and GOD Help us,
rich

On 3/17/2019 7:11 PM, Bob Blick wrote:
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2019\03\17@205451 by Bob Blick

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And, of course, in my haste, I should have remembered that it's EraseMEpiclist-ownerspamEraseMEmit.edu

In this case, end result is the same. Luckily no planes came down.

Bob

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Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2019 5:39 PM
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Subject: Re: [OT] Solar Power

Sorry, you're out. Your reply should have been to TakeThisOuTpiclist-admin.....spamTakeThisOuTmit.edu as I had requested.

Bob

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2019\03\18@054514 by RussellMc

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On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 at 12:05, James Cameron <TakeThisOuTquozlKILLspamspamspamlaptop.org> wrote:

> I think by focusing on insolation, Russell has misunderstood my point.
>

Not really, but I did add some more consumer relevant points as well. Panel
angle and snow and annual insolation and a bit more are still relevant
commercially.

I doubt that we disagree greatly if at all.

What matters most for a given location is the spot price into the
> network, the cost of extending the network, and how the price varies
> across the insolation curve.
>
> Here's a farm with the panels all facing west instead of solar
> optimum.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/CZ71fMiRjrs
>
> Yes. I'm aware of the practice of skewing panel alignment to maximise
something other than peak energy.
(In a domestic context: In my nephew's 10 kW array he has panels set to
Winter maximum to maximise winter energy without panel angle changes.

And but

> Here's their spot price per megawatt by scheduled demand
>
>
> https://aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard
>
> 30 min spot price currently 102.73/MWh - was about $98 when I first looked
some hours ago.
That's $0.10273/kWh - which may be OK for wholesale rates but would not
make a residential customer aiming to achieve system payback very happy.
Odds are that on some evenings they get MUCH more than that.

For a residential owner my prior suggested criteria of " ... generous
feed-in arrangements (or full grid replacement output)  ..." still seem OK.
Feed in rates are often very low compared to cost of units residentially.
Whereas if you can use panel-power when you would otherwise be using grid
power then every unit 'pays you' at grid rates.

At residential rates per unit a cost effective system may break even in an
acceptable time frame.
I'd be interested in knowing what the payback period mis for your system.

For commercial suppliers, if $0.18/kWh was the best they got I'd be
surprised if it was a good investment. I may be wrong.



Russell








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2019\03\18@145627 by James Cameron

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On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:43:24PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 at 12:05, James Cameron <.....quozlspamRemoveMElaptop.org> wrote:
>
> > I think by focusing on insolation, Russell has misunderstood my point.
>
> Not really, but I did add some more consumer relevant points as
> well. Panel angle and snow and annual insolation and a bit more are
> still relevant commercially.
>
> I doubt that we disagree greatly if at all.

I guess my disagreement also comes down to my trying to help Allen
understand how best to address his concerns of deforestation and loss
of farmland.  These are real concerns, and a focus on consumer solar
misses the point or redirects the discussion.  My suggestion to Allen
and his daughter and friend is to focus on the economic business case,
because the people making the decisions are doing so based on that.
Focus on actions that affect the business case, such as lobbying,
gating, boycotts, insistence on transparency, examination of public
records, etc.

However, I'll comment on the consumer solar issues.  ;-)

{Quote hidden}

Here, residential customers are not exposed to this market directly.

They are paid either $AUD 0.08/kWh if they do nothing, or if they can
be bothered to ask up to about $AUD 0.20/kWh at the same time as
paying a greater per-day service charge.  They are also export limited
to 10 kW, or 5 Kw in remote areas.

> Odds are that on some evenings they get MUCH more than that.

Yes, the spot price easily jumps to the maximum $AUD 10000/kWh during heat
waves or when a thermal generator is on scheduled maintenance.  Gas
turbines are spun up.  Load shedding has happened this past summer.

{Quote hidden}

My system is a mix of business continuity insurance and increased
building cooling capacity.  No payback planned.

> For commercial suppliers, if $0.18/kWh was the best they got I'd be
> surprised if it was a good investment. I may be wrong.

Commercial farms get the spot price if they bid into the market
successfully.

[...]

-- James Cameron
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2019\03\18@164536 by John Gardner

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Sounds like a lawyer's paradise.

Well,  life ain't simple,  is it...

...


On 3/18/19, James Cameron <RemoveMEquozlspamspamBeGonelaptop.org> wrote:
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2019\03\19@213846 by Justin Richards

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Allen,

I am curious when you say the farmland is stripped and solar farms are
going up.

My image of farmland is one where the land is already stripped and the
panels could fit right in.

Is it trees they farm that need to be stripped?

Justin



On Mon, 18 Mar 2019 02:36 Allen Mulvey <TakeThisOuTallenspamspamamulvey.com> wrote:

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2019\03\19@214058 by Justin Richards

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disregard previous message. I re-read you msg,  googled perennial and got
my answer.

On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:37 Justin Richards <justin.richardsEraseMEspamgmail.com> wrote:

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2019\03\19@235332 by Allen Mulvey

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Justin,

Poor grammar perhaps. How about forests stripped, farmland
converted. Actually many of the farms around here are
orchards so perhaps it wasn't so far off. The point is, I
can't decide it these things are good or bad. Although I am
leaning toward the latter. I don't think we really need the
energy. We have some very safe nuclear plants which have
been operating without event for decades.

Allen

{Original Message removed}

2019\03\20@005805 by Justin Richards

face picon face
>From the way you describe it, I am inclined to agree that money/resources
maybe better spent in other ways.

In my part of the world however, we get reasonable insolation and large
areas that are relatively barren so perhaps more viable.  My power bill is
less with the 3kW rooftop. There is always night time base load to deal
with and batteries are not there yet for my situation.

On a related subject, The Amp Hour recently interviewed a researcher hoping
to achieve 25% efficiency compared with current 20% technology.  Also
targets simplified installation to again make solar more viable for certain
situations.


On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 11:58 Allen Mulvey <@spam@allenRemoveMEspamEraseMEamulvey.com> wrote:

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> {Original Message removed}

2019\03\20@044902 by David C Brown

picon face
If nuclear plants have been operating for decades they are probably past
their design life and even reaching the end of their useful life.   As
reactors grow older they are more prone to failure.  And there doesn't seem
to be any appetite - politically or commercially - to build new ones.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: EraseMEdcb.homespam@spam@gmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*


On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 03:58, Allen Mulvey <@spam@allenspam_OUTspam.....amulvey.com> wrote:

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> {Original Message removed}

2019\03\20@080933 by Allen Mulvey

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That, I think, is much of the problem. We have cheap energy
available but it is not PC and everyone is afraid to use it.

Allen

{Original Message removed}

2019\03\20@114414 by Bob Blick

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There are lots of people with money. If they want to invest in solar farms instead of reactors, it's their money and their property. At least they aren't burning tires or raising pigs. Would you rather live next to a new solar farm or a 50 year old reactor? Rust never sleeps.

The commercial and military nuclear industry made some big messes, and the Department of Energy spends $8 billion every year cleaning up old sites like Hanford. Terms like "PC" get thrown around as if those on the other side are foolish, ignoring the haste and greed that caused the problem in the first place.

Certainly nuclear power could be done safely. But would I trust you to do it? Would you trust me? Would any of us trust Windows 10?

Your original post had some prickly edges, and I'm trying to sort out what the intent was, whether you were curious about the economics of solar power in your area, had environmental concerns, merely feeling NIMBY, or just wanted to vent frustrations about the political climate.

If we all put a little extra effort into making our posts to the Piclist clear and factual, with some forethought about the responses they might provoke, we might be able to keep threads from snowballing into disastrous situations.

Thanks, Bob


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From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesEraseMEspammit.edu <piclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu> on behalf of Allen Mulvey <RemoveMEallen@spam@spamspamBeGoneamulvey.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 5:08 AM
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [OT] Solar Power

That, I think, is much of the problem. We have cheap energy
available but it is not PC and everyone is afraid to use it.

Allen

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2019\03\20@151825 by Allen Mulvey

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I originally posted to this list expecting more technical
responses than political ones. Aesthetically I don't like
solar farms but as one who literally grew up in a junk yard
I can't really complain about that. Everybody recognizes the
need for junk yards they just want them in somebody else's
neighborhood. I am a strong believer that a person should be
able to do whatever he wants with his own property.

Is the technology mature and cheap enough that we can use
and maintain it in an economical and environmentally
friendly way even after the government subsidies run out?
For example many say they are environmentally friendly
because they don't generate the smoke that fossil fuel
plants do. However, they rarely mention the other toxic
effects mentioned. How do they balance out? Do they? Should
they, I will leave to the politicians and philosophers. (I
really didn't expect much of that on this list.)

Although it is used as such, I don't see the expression
"environmentally friendly" as political. It is a matter of
technology and the use of that technology.

You are right about the term "PC." I should have defined it
as it apparently has different meanings to different people.
I am a big supporter of health and environment. I use the
term "PC" to mean action purported to have environmental or
safety gains but really aimed at gaining political mileage
or acceptance without a realistic evaluation of the initial
action.

I apologize for the unintended consequences.

Thanks,
Allen

{Original Message removed}

2019\03\20@183630 by K S

picon face
> Recently much of our forest and farmland is
> being stripped and solar farms are going up.

> Aesthetically I don't like solar farms

Farmland is the largest human caused blight on earth. Given how long
we've been doing it we've had plenty of time to adjust, view it as
normal and even develop bucolic fantasies about it. The aesthetics of
farmland is purely sociological; one day solar farms may turn us on
just as much.

Here in Australia we have regular protests about coal mines opening up
in traditionally agricultural areas. Conveniently people forget that
less than 200 years ago these agricultural areas were forests;
agriculture, predominantly pasture, has decimated the natural
landscape. A few mines peppered across the place should be seen in
that context, as should solar farms.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 6:23 AM Allen Mulvey <.....allen@spam@spamEraseMEamulvey.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2019\03\20@200715 by David C Brown

picon face
I have found the book "Sustainable Energy without the hot air" by the late
David McKay to be the most useful quantitative analysis of the real
potential of of the various forms of energy production.  Whilst it is a
little out of date and UK-centric it is worth reading the chapter on solar
power

https://www.withouthotair.com/c6/page_38.shtml
__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: .....dcb.homeRemoveMEspamgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*


On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 22:41, K S <.....kreshoSTOPspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2019\03\21@034610 by RussellMc

face picon face
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 13:11, David C Brown <RemoveMEdcb.homespamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:

> I have found the book "Sustainable Energy without the hot air" by the late
> David McKay to be the most useful quantitative analysis of the real
> potential of of the various forms of energy production.  Whilst it is a
> little out of date and UK-centric it is worth reading the chapter on solar
> power
>
>
Extremely well done.

*RECOMMENDED*

*Free* and *genuinely legitimate* PDF version of whole book here (from
author) - 383 pages

         http://www.inference.org.uk/sustainable/book/tex/sewtha.pdf

His energy assumptions can largely stand (or not) on their own merit.
However, this was published in 2008 and solar PV panel prices have utterly
plummeted since then - so arguments re cost effectiveness will have changed
immensely.

Also his UK wide "solar farm" is based on a 10% efficiency assumption which
was bearable at the time but very wrong now.
A figure in the 15% - 20%+ range is more realistic now deep-ending where
you measure it.



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2019\03\21@050648 by David C Brown

picon face
I appreciate that, because of David's untimely death, the book is now out
of date; and I am surprised that no one else has taken on the batten of
updating it.

But the real value of the book is in its methodology;  its absolute
reliance on numbers  and calculations rather than on handwaving and
adjectives.
And, as engineers, we are all capable of doing that rather than invoking
weird conspiracy theories and political correctness.
__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: spamBeGonedcb.homeKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*


On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 07:51, RussellMc <apptechnzspam_OUTspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

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2019\03\21@095302 by Allen Mulvey

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Thank you. This is excellent.

Allen

-----Original Message-----
From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamKILLspammit.edu
[spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamRemoveMEmit.edu] On Behalf Of David C Brown
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 8:07 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Solar Power

I have found the book "Sustainable Energy without the hot
air" by the late
David McKay to be the most useful quantitative analysis of
the real
potential of of the various forms of energy production.
Whilst it is a
little out of date and UK-centric it is worth reading the
chapter on solar
power

https://www.withouthotair.com/c6/page_38.shtml
__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
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Derbyshire                eMail: .....dcb.homespamRemoveMEgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



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On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 22:41, K S <kreshospam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Recently much of our forest and farmland is
> > being stripped and solar farms are going up.
>
> > Aesthetically I don't like solar farms
>
> Farmland is the largest human caused blight on earth.
Given how long
> we've been doing it we've had plenty of time to adjust,
view it as
> normal and even develop bucolic fantasies about it. The
aesthetics of
> farmland is purely sociological; one day solar farms may
turn us on
> just as much.
>
> Here in Australia we have regular protests about coal
mines opening up
> in traditionally agricultural areas. Conveniently people
forget that
> less than 200 years ago these agricultural areas were
forests;
> agriculture, predominantly pasture, has decimated the
natural
> landscape. A few mines peppered across the place should be
seen in
> that context, as should solar farms.
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 6:23 AM Allen Mulvey
<EraseMEallenRemoveMEspamSTOPspamamulvey.com> wrote:
> >
> > I originally posted to this list expecting more
technical
> > responses than political ones. Aesthetically I don't
like
> > solar farms but as one who literally grew up in a junk
yard
> > I can't really complain about that. Everybody recognizes
the
> > need for junk yards they just want them in somebody
else's
> > neighborhood. I am a strong believer that a person
should be
> > able to do whatever he wants with his own property.
> >
> > Is the technology mature and cheap enough that we can
use
> > and maintain it in an economical and environmentally
> > friendly way even after the government subsidies run
out?
> > For example many say they are environmentally friendly
> > because they don't generate the smoke that fossil fuel
> > plants do. However, they rarely mention the other toxic
> > effects mentioned. How do they balance out? Do they?
Should
> > they, I will leave to the politicians and philosophers.
(I
> > really didn't expect much of that on this list.)
> >
> > Although it is used as such, I don't see the expression
> > "environmentally friendly" as political. It is a matter
of
> > technology and the use of that technology.
> >
> > You are right about the term "PC." I should have defined
it
> > as it apparently has different meanings to different
people.
> > I am a big supporter of health and environment. I use
the
> > term "PC" to mean action purported to have environmental
or
> > safety gains but really aimed at gaining political
mileage
> > or acceptance without a realistic evaluation of the
initial
{Quote hidden}

invest
> > in solar farms instead of reactors, it's their money and
> > their property. At least they aren't burning tires or
> > raising pigs. Would you rather live next to a new solar
farm
> > or a 50 year old reactor? Rust never sleeps.
> >
> > The commercial and military nuclear industry made some
big
> > messes, and the Department of Energy spends $8 billion
every
> > year cleaning up old sites like Hanford. Terms like "PC"
get
> > thrown around as if those on the other side are foolish,
> > ignoring the haste and greed that caused the problem in
the
> > first place.
> >
> > Certainly nuclear power could be done safely. But would
I
> > trust you to do it? Would you trust me? Would any of us
> > trust Windows 10?
> >
> > Your original post had some prickly edges, and I'm
trying to
> > sort out what the intent was, whether you were curious
about
> > the economics of solar power in your area, had
environmental
> > concerns, merely feeling NIMBY, or just wanted to vent
> > frustrations about the political climate.
> >
> > If we all put a little extra effort into making our
posts to
> > the Piclist clear and factual, with some forethought
about
> > the responses they might provoke, we might be able to
keep
> > threads from snowballing into disastrous situations.
> >
> > Thanks, Bob
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspammit.edu <piclist-bouncesspamspammit.edu>
on
> > behalf of Allen Mulvey <spam_OUTallenspam_OUTspamspam_OUTamulvey.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 5:08 AM
> > To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
> > Subject: RE: [OT] Solar Power
> >
> > That, I think, is much of the problem. We have cheap
energy
> > available but it is not PC and everyone is afraid to use
it.
{Quote hidden}

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2019\03\22@060522 by James Cameron

flavicon
face
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 08:45:27PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> [...]
> http://www.inference.org.uk/sustainable/book/tex/sewtha.pdf

A side issue.

On the 63rd page, marked page 50, it is said that "In countries where
the voltage is 110 volts, it takes twice as long to make a pot of
tea."

In UK, it is said that a 230V outlet permits up to 13A.  So the
limit is 2.990kW.

In Australia, a 240V outlet permits up to 10A.  So the limit is 2.4kW.

What does the US have as a conventional pluggable cable limit?
Wikipedia suggests 115V and 15A, or 1.725 kW for NEMA 1-15 or 5-15.

So that is 58% of the UK tea power delivery.

Or 1.73 times as long?

-- James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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2019\03\22@080557 by Allen Mulvey

flavicon
face
That is true. In the USA usually only high power items like
hot water heaters, power tools, or clothes dryers are wired
for 240V. Everything else is wired for 120V. NEMA 15A
outlets are standard. When I was a kid 110V was standard. I
think some places may still use that.

240V comes in but it is broken into two out of phase 120V
circuits from a grounded neutral.

Allen

{Original Message removed}

2019\03\22@081134 by RussellMc

face picon face
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 23:10, James Cameron <quozlspam_OUTspamlaptop.org> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

the 180 degree separated "phases" and make tea 13.8% faster.

Whereas NZ and UK and others have 3 phases (usually one or sometimes two
phases per home) of (choose one) 220/230/240 VAC at 120 electrical degrees
to each other, the standard US (choose one) 110/120 V 'phases are derived
by centre tapping a 220 / 240V winding, so that each phase is at 180
degrees to the other - so a phase to phase connection sums the voltages to
give 220 /  240 Volt.

*Water heats at about 850* litre-degrees_C per kWh.   *

*<- store this useful figure in your brain.                           (*
Actually 853 at 0 C and 100 C and 861 at 40 C, but, that's water for you.)*

So an eg 2.4 kW element heats at 2.4 x 850 = 2040 litre.degrees per hour.

minutes x Watts ~= litres x degrees_C x 70

*         or minutes  ~= litres x degrees_C x 70/ Watts.    <- a keeper*

eg 2 litres of water heated from 20C to 100C  using 2.4 kW.

t = 2 x (100-20) x 70 / 2400 = 4 minutes 40 seconds.

_________________________________

I have two phases live in my hone - there long ago were three when a prior
owner ran a two shift plastic moulding and ??? business in the back yard.
The 'main' portion of the house runs on one phase and the rear portion
(this office, downstairs workshop, some other) runs on the other.
I have 230 VAC nominal phase-neutral in each case and 400 VAC phase-phase
should I ever choose to use it -  I never have. During the occasional power
outage it is far more common to only lose the "front of house" phase and
occasionally both together. Never, so far, afair (in 30 years) the rear
phase only. If a single phase outage occurs of-an-evening I run an
extension cord from the rear of house and operate TV, regrigerators and
misc lighting and laptops as requisite thereon. This PC is already on the
"rear" phase.

What has this got to do with solar power ? :-)


      Russell
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2019\03\22@084827 by Allen Mulvey

flavicon
face
I don't know what this has to do with solar power but it is
kind of interesting to see how electrical energy is
delivered in various parts of the world. I wish it was a
standard 220V worldwide but real life is never that simple.

Allen

{Original Message removed}

2019\03\22@090957 by Dave Lagzdin

picon face
Things are a bit regional but either 15A per outlet (split receptable) or a
20A duplex receptacle are approved for kitchen use USA/Canada
I have not seen kitchen appliances take advantage of the 20A available tho.
D

On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 at 06:10, James Cameron <RemoveMEquozlKILLspamspam@spam@laptop.org> wrote:

>
> What does the US have as a conventional pluggable cable limit?
> Wikipedia suggests 115V and 15A, or 1.725 kW for NEMA 1-15 or 5-15.
>
> So that is 58% of the UK tea power delivery.
>
> Or 1.73 times as long?
>
>
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2019\03\22@093451 by Kirby

picon face
On 22/03/2019 13:16, Dave Lagzdin wrote:
> Things are a bit regional but either 15A per outlet (split receptable) or a
> 20A duplex receptacle are approved for kitchen use USA/Canada
> I have not seen kitchen appliances take advantage of the 20A available tho.

I have never lived in a house with a 110V-20A outlet, but a couple of
hospitals I have worked in had them. One of the holes is T-shaped since
a 20A plug has a perpendicular blade. Neutral, if I recall.


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2019\03\22@120229 by Bob Blick

flavicon
face
I think it depends on how you heat the water. Electric stoves run on 240 volts, so if you put a tea kettle on the stove it's pretty much the same. Electric tea kettles that plug into 120 volt outlets are a rarity here. I mostly use a microwave if I'm making a cup of tea, and it does take a while to bring the water to a boil.

Bob

________________________________________
From: piclist-bouncesspamBeGonespam.....mit.edu <KILLspampiclist-bouncesspam.....mit.edu> on behalf of James Cameron <spam_OUTquozlspamKILLspamlaptop.org>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 3:04 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Solar Power

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 08:45:27PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> [...]
> http://www.inference.org.uk/sustainable/book/tex/sewtha.pdf

A side issue.

On the 63rd page, marked page 50, it is said that "In countries where
the voltage is 110 volts, it takes twice as long to make a pot of
tea."

In UK, it is said that a 230V outlet permits up to 13A.  So the
limit is 2.990kW.

In Australia, a 240V outlet permits up to 10A.  So the limit is 2.4kW.

What does the US have as a conventional pluggable cable limit?
Wikipedia suggests 115V and 15A, or 1.725 kW for NEMA 1-15 or 5-15.

So that is 58% of the UK tea power delivery.

Or 1.73 times as long?

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
--
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2019\03\22@125517 by Isaac M. Bavaresco

picon face
I think the most efficient way of heating water ought be an electric heater
dipped in the water in a *very* well thermally insulated pot.

Almost all inefficiencies play in our favor, the only possible losses would
be some EM and phonon emissions, besides the thermal conductivity of the
pot's walls.

Even a microwave oven oughta waste more energy.

Cheers,
Isaac


Em sex, 22 de mar de 2019 13:07, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbobblickRemoveMEspamEraseMEoutlook.com> escreveu:

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2019\03\22@155825 by Daniel Serpell

picon face
Hi!

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 2:00 PM Isaac M. Bavaresco
<KILLspamisaacbavarescospamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think the most efficient way of heating water ought be an electric heater
> dipped in the water in a *very* well thermally insulated pot.
>
> Almost all inefficiencies play in our favor, the only possible losses would
> be some EM and phonon emissions, besides the thermal conductivity of the
> pot's walls.
>

Well, if you use a heat-pump, it will be more efficient than a simple heater.

Here almost all households have electric kettles, I'm surprised to learn that
those are not common in other countries, as they are *very* cheap (from
US$10 up to about US$200, depending on brand, thermal insulation and
capacity), so nobody uses old kitchen kettles.

Standard is 1.5 to 2.0 litters and 10A, so 2.2kW. You can boil a litter of
water in about 3 to 5 minutes.

Have fun,
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2019\03\22@162001 by John Gardner

picon face
This US resident no longer has a GE electric tea-kettle because

after the US-made kettle expired (~40 years) the (GE) offshore

replacement lasted 3 months.  As did its warranty replacement.

...


On 3/22/19, Daniel Serpell <@spam@daniel.serpellSTOPspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
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2019\03\23@131530 by Brooke Clarke

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face

Hi:

I use a Hot Water Pot.  It's a thermos bottle that maintains 5 L of water at a selected temperature (now at 208 F).
So, there's no wait time. Hot water is available instantly by means of an electric pump, or when the power fails by
opening the lid.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

-------- Original Message --------
>   Re: [OT] Solar Power

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2019\03\23@151624 by David C Brown

picon face
Absolutely amazing that a serious discussion on strategies for saving the
planet from global warming could - because of a joke by Prof McKay -
degenerate into a debate about making tea.
__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak                           Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire                eMail: spamBeGonedcb.homespamgmail.com
SK23 7ND          web: http://www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*


On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 at 17:19, Brooke Clarke <spam_OUTbrookeSTOPspamspampacific.net> wrote:

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2019\03\23@162755 by RussellMc

face picon face
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 at 08:20, David C Brown <RemoveMEdcb.homespamspamgmail.com> wrote:

> Absolutely amazing that a serious discussion on strategies for saving the
> planet from global warming could - because of a joke by Prof McKay -
> degenerate into a debate about making tea.
>

Nay sir!

(Or is that "Neigh, Sir" (said with a horse laugh))
Surely it as your citing the very insightful joke that turned the tide?

I'd not quite admit to the term "degenerate into".
I think that some of the resultant discussion has been quite useful.
But, then, I would.
The "1 kWh = 850 litre.degrees_C" for water is an immensely useful one (for
some, anyway).
I have found many uses for it since I calculated it some years back.
It's entirely obvious , but I've not seen it stated anywhere else.
It's inexact due to the fact that the specific heat of water vaies somewhat
across the range of usual interest, but still  useful.
(It's about 860 l.d at around 0C and 100C and about 850 at 40C).

Neigh?


          Russell





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2019\03\23@174855 by John Gardner

picon face
I disagree with the assertion that making tea is Trumped

by global warming,  real & imagined.

Sorry Bob -  I'll come out with my hands up...    "8)

...


On 3/23/19, RussellMc <TakeThisOuTapptechnzspamspamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
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