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'[OT] Re: Need a circuit assembler'
2006\06\22@202109 by PicDude

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D'oh!  Forgot the tag...


On Thursday 22 June 2006 20:15, PicDude wrote:
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2006\06\22@213831 by Bob Axtell

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PicDude wrote:
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I have a lady here in Tucson that was looking for some extra work. She
populated several PCBs for me
and does the same for her company. I don't have her number but I can get
it tomorrow. I think she would
do very well. Her manual TSSOPs and 0805s were very fine.

We are close to Mexico here. There are contract assemblers all over down
here (Nogales, Sonora).

--Bob

2006\06\22@214917 by dbwood

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You could contact my assembler, AMPS, Inc. Ask for Tammy Sams and tell
them Doug Wood sent you. She does ALL of my through-hole and SMT
assemblies for my prototyping and short-runs.

Contact Info:

AMPS, Inc.
S. 2423 Early
Kansas City, KS. 66103 USA
913 - 677-5900 Phone

Douglas Wood


{Original Message removed}

2006\06\22@221841 by Ray Newman

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Doug,
What is the average going rate per part or per pin for assembly down there???
I am in upstate NY and it is almost impossible to find anyone for small production/prototyping.
And if I do, I pay $0.10 to $0.20 per part. And that is for thru hole. SMD is more.
Found individual who is not using his smd equipment too much but he wants twice as much.

I got spoiled doing assembly in Thailand (not as cheap as China) but while assembly
was less than $0.05/part, the shipping to (unless I purchased 1,000 pcs or more I had to supply)
and back was costing me about $120/25kg box. Each way.

So I am always looking for individuals, that I can trust. But maybe I am too cheap.

Ray


On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 20:49:15 -0500, spam_OUTdbwoodTakeThisOuTspamkc.rr.com wrote:
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> {Original Message removed}

2006\06\22@222910 by Peter Todd

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On Thu, Jun 22, 2006 at 10:18:51PM -0400, Ray Newman wrote:
> Doug,
> What is the average going rate per part or per pin for assembly down there???
> I am in upstate NY and it is almost impossible to find anyone for small production/prototyping.
> And if I do, I pay $0.10 to $0.20 per part. And that is for thru hole. SMD is more.
> Found individual who is not using his smd equipment too much but he wants twice as much.
>
> I got spoiled doing assembly in Thailand (not as cheap as China) but while assembly
> was less than $0.05/part, the shipping to (unless I purchased 1,000 pcs or more I had to supply)
> and back was costing me about $120/25kg box. Each way.
>
> So I am always looking for individuals, that I can trust. But maybe I am too cheap.

You know, this sounds like something that may be workable with some of
the students I know (including me) at my university. A number of us do
electronics stuff, and are quite familiar with thru-hold soldering. Off
the top of my head I suspect you're not going to get prices much below
$0.10 per part, but at least your shipping will only be to Toronto,
Ontario accross the border.

That said, I don't know much about the PCB assembly business, other than
I can't afford it when I want to get projects I make built. :)

--
.....peteKILLspamspam@spam@petertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\06\22@224511 by dbwood

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Boy, you know, I don't think I've any of that data handy. Since I
usually have her assemble prototypes (as opposed to short run of
boards), I don't really worry about it. I'd give her a call and talk
to her. She'd be better able to tell you those kinds of numbers.

Douglas Wood

{Original Message removed}

2006\06\22@230246 by Ray Newman

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Doug,
Thanks!
Information is always helpful.
Ray


On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 21:45:09 -0500, dbwoodspamKILLspamkc.rr.com wrote:
> Boy, you know, I don't think I've any of that data handy. Since I
> usually have her assemble prototypes (as opposed to short run of
> boards), I don't really worry about it. I'd give her a call and
> talk to her. She'd be better able to tell you those kinds of
> numbers.
>
> Douglas Wood
>
> {Original Message removed}

2006\06\22@230513 by Martin K

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Ray,
I'm an EE grad student and I'm always looking for extra work. I happen
to be in upstate NY as well - Alfred.
I can do through hole and if you want SMD I'd be willing to buy the
equipment on my own dollar if you give me enough jobs. I'm always
looking for an excuse to buy tools. I consider myself trustworthy as you
say, though I suppose that's a value that is not easily quantified.
Please get ahold of me if you're interested - or anyone else, for that
matter.
--
Martin Klingensmith

Ray Newman wrote:

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2006\06\22@231320 by Ray Newman

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Peter,
Interesting.
I get all my pc board done at Circuit Spec in Markham.
Victor Velocci <.....victorKILLspamspam.....circuit-spec.com>
give me 3-4 panels of bare boards for US$350
whatever I can pack onto a 12"x18" (or some time bigger)
with 0.1" spacing for routing
2 sided
solder mask two side
silkscreen two side
all boards routed.
If I get gerber in by Monday morning I get boards in my hand by Friday afternoon.

BUT

Fedex charges about US$100 for shipping from Toronto to Buffalo NY
So I go up or have it shipped to Niagara Falls ON Canada

So I might be interested in getting some costing.
Send me email privately.
Thanks,
Ray


On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:49:25 -0400, Peter Todd wrote:
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2006\06\22@232011 by dbwood

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I should mention that Tammy does all of her SMT assembly by hand
(i.e., she does not have a pick & place machine). So if you needed a
large number of assemblies made, a shop with a P&P machine might give
you better prices. She uses a air-powered syringe pump to depense the
sodler paste (I'm not certain of this, but I don't think she's set up
to use solder paste masks. If that's an option for you, ask you about
it. I usually cannot afford the cost of the mask, especially for
prototypes.)

She employs 5-10 people to do assembly work. They can IR and wave
soldering (and hand soldering, I suppose, too. :^), and are also set
up to do other types of assembly (like cable assemblies, etc.).

Douglas Wood

{Original Message removed}

2006\06\23@050321 by Russell McMahon

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Some useful comments from a friend:


Thru-hole boards in quantities less than a few thousand can be
cost-effectively assembled by hand (but the advantage over machine
assembly
obviously diminish as quantities increase).  If production is likely
to be
on-going in the long term then you should use machine assembly as soon
as
practicable.  If you are only ever going to do say 100 units then
machine
assembly (with the possible exception of wave soldering) will almost
never
make sense.

The same general argument applies for SMT but the thresholds are
probably 10
to 50 times lower, and the issue of lead pitch comes in.  We routinely
manually assemble low-medium complexity SMT boards with lead pitches
down to
0.5mm and lead counts up to several hundred (QFP packages).  We don't
do
manual BGA but could if we wanted to  - we'd just have to get the
appropriate equipment and practice a bit.  The thresholds will
generally be
lower as the component lead pitch increases  - for simpler boards with
0805
passives, SOT23/SOT223 etc. discretes, and smaller IC's in 1.27mm
pitch
(SOIC packages) you might be happy to do those by hand in runs of a
few
hundred.  You probably don't want to be doing more complex boards with
0.65mm (QFP/TSSOP) or 0.5mm (QFP) in quantities greater than about 10.

How many you can/should sensibly do is a complex balancing act with a
large
number of input factors.  Your techniques can have quite a major
influence
too.  I believe we have some pretty efficient/effective ways of
assembling
SMT componnents  - especially at finer pitches.

So there is no single answer  - every board is different and must be
assessed on its own merits.  I certainly wouldn't be wanting to quote
on a
simple per component or per lead basis  - that would be suicide on
some
boards.

Regards,

Ken Mardle

2006\06\23@083810 by Dave Lag

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Ray Newman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

There is a small service that runs from the "mailboxes" in Buffalo back
to the T.O. . Wonder if they offer service in the other direction?

2006\06\23@093636 by Russell McMahon

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>> give me 3-4 panels of bare boards for US$350
>> whatever I can pack onto a 12"x18" (or some time bigger)
>> with 0.1" spacing for routing
>> 2 sided
>> solder mask two side
>> silkscreen two side
>> all boards routed.
>> If I get gerber in by Monday morning I get boards in my hand by
>> Friday afternoon.

Prototype service available locally here in NZ from "Advanced
Circuits" about 15 minutes drive from where I live offers A3 panel
(about 16" x 11") with basic specs as above for $US540 ish with 24
hour turnaround.
eg Gerbers in by 4:30 pm Monday, boards back late Tuesday afternoon.

1 day    $US540
2 days  $US445
3 days  $US350
5 days  $US310

Mon-Fri is ALMOST 5 days - say 3, and the costs are the same for a
slightly smaller panel in my case. They will often throw in extra
boards from the extra panel they always make for backup. (Last job I
did was A4 but they gave me almost an A3 panel worth of boards).

Cost includes filmwork.
Above doesn't include local GST at 12.5%

A4 (half above size) only 10%  to 15% less.
Any mix of sub boards. They will cut up panel in price - or leave in
routed frame for assembly mounting.

I have been extremely happy with the service.
Jinx not so happy - they and he fired each other and he now shops
elsewhere for his PCBs.
(They had several misunderstandings - so far I haven't managed).



       RM


2006\06\23@194830 by PicDude

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On Thursday 22 June 2006 20:38, Bob Axtell wrote:
> I have a lady here in Tucson that was looking for some extra work. She
> populated several PCBs for me
> and does the same for her company. I don't have her number but I can get
> it tomorrow. I think she would
> do very well. Her manual TSSOPs and 0805s were very fine.
>
> We are close to Mexico here. There are contract assemblers all over down
> here (Nogales, Sonora).
>
> --Bob


I'm wondering if someone "looking for some extra work" might able to handle
orders of 100 thru 1000 pcs at a time.  Boards are small though, and a mix of
thru-hole and SMT.  Feel free to pass on her number.

I was asking about hiring a person in-house as I find it easier to deal with
companies near me, but have not yet found any competitive companies here in
S. FL.  I've also had positive experiences with people local to me as well.  
Price-wise, I am finding most companies to be quite high, so that's another
reason for looking to hire someone directly.

Cheers,
-Neil.

2006\06\23@195351 by PicDude

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On Thursday 22 June 2006 21:18, Ray Newman wrote:
> Doug,
> What is the average going rate per part or per pin for assembly down
> there??? I am in upstate NY and it is almost impossible to find anyone for
> small production/prototyping. And if I do, I pay $0.10 to $0.20 per part.
> And that is for thru hole. SMD is more. Found individual who is not using
> his smd equipment too much but he wants twice as much.

Per part, regardless or numbers of pins on the part?


> So I am always looking for individuals, that I can trust. But maybe I am
> too cheap.

I'm in the same boat, but it's not about being cheap, but about being
cost-competitive.  My products are made in the USA, but I still have to
compete with foreign-made products.

Cheers,
-Neil.

2006\06\23@203132 by Bob Axtell

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PicDude wrote:
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Sorry, PICDUDE, I failed to get her phone number.I'll see her Monday.

--Bob

2006\06\23@203951 by Ray Newman

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Neil,

I have the advantage of years of offshore production experience.
While I am reluctant to manufacture in China because of minimum
labor/material/builds AND rip off of my designs (happened with 4 chip motion outdoor lights went to 1 chip back in the early 90's)
I helped a lot of USA companies manufacture in China.

But my heart is in Thailand.
Friends/propriorty manufacturing.
Not as low cost as China but better engineering talent
Because of Thai law, BOI export companies can't sell local.

The only real problem is that there is not too much local material.
I have to import from the rest of SE Asia.
But less than US$0.05/part is very possible and SMD is even cheaper when they have equipment.

BUT
most material suppliers require 1,000 pcs min.
So some day I will go back.
For the cost of 250 here I can get 1,000 there.

Per part is just a guide line.
Real estimates require prep time per part.
Some are easy and some are not.
I have the sales but not the cash.
So I am trying to find local help.
Ray


On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 19:55:27 -0500, PicDude wrote:
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2006\06\23@205622 by Ray Newman

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Bob,
I guess you know me.
At least indirectly.
I know you are helping my friends so I will try not to step on your toes.

Nothing is solid yet.
Just finding out information/possibilities.

Ray




>>
> Sorry, PICDUDE, I failed to get her phone number.I'll see her
> Monday.
>
> --Bob






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2006\06\24@112923 by Mauricio Jancic

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Here in Argentina the costs are low too. For example:
I have this board a customer developed himself and asked me to assembly. It
has 53 components. 8 of these components are on one side of the board and
are PTH (some LCD connectors, a pushbutton, buzzer, electrolytic capacitor,
and 2 led at specific heights). On the other side of the board are the rest
of the components, which are all SMD. Some are 0805 and 1206 resistors and
or capacitors, a SOIC-28, some 1N4007, sot-23's and some MELF's).

That board cost him to be assembled U$ 0.035 per part, based con qtys of
more than 500 boards. There are price steps:
10 to 24                U$S 0.081
25 to 49                U$S 0.061
50 to 99                U$S 0.047
100 to 199                U$S 0.041
200 to 499                U$S 0.037
> 500                        U$S 0.035

I also made the boards (500 units), which cost him U$ 1.95 in a normal
production time of 15 days (it can be short, off course). The board is a
double sided board measuring 5x8.6 cm. 200 boards would have cost him U$S
2.98.

Regards,

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos
http://www.janso.com.ar
@spam@infoKILLspamspamjanso.com.ar
(54) 11-4542-3519


> {Original Message removed}

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