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PICList Thread
'[OT] New (to me) IC engine concept.'
2006\04\14@130431 by Richard Stevens

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As a keen follower of OT threads myself, I thought this might be of interest to some of you.
I have no connection - just passing on an interesting link that was sent to me this morning.
http://www.plug2work.com/angellabsllc/index.html

2006\04\14@155628 by blackcat

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Looks like many other "deluded inventor" scenarios
I have seen.  The guy talks about being in stealth
mode and the world will benefit greatly but not just yet.
Many other things about this scream to me that is
never going to happen.

Gus



On 2006-Apr 14, at 11:04 AM, Richard Stevens wrote:

As a keen follower of OT threads myself, I thought this might be of  
interest to some of you.
I have no connection - just passing on an interesting link that was  
sent to me this morning.
http://www.plug2work.com/angellabsllc/index.html

2006\04\14@165805 by Bob Axtell

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blackcat wrote:
> Looks like many other "deluded inventor" scenarios
> I have seen.  The guy talks about being in stealth
> mode and the world will benefit greatly but not just yet.
> Many other things about this scream to me that is
> never going to happen.
>
> Gus
>
>  
Yes. The web is great for these guys; they finally have a voice. My wife
(a mental
health RN) has a ward full of 'em...

--Bob

{Quote hidden}

2006\04\14@200558 by James Newtons Massmind

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Looks like a rotary engine ala Mazda but with many more divisions which are
finer and appear to be spring coupled to the shaft. This video is the best
explanation:
http://www.angellabsllc.com/images/video2.jpg

The problem with these (as I understand it) is that they wear out fast. I
don't know why that would be, but I've been told that this is what the
original inventor of the rotary engine died trying to perfect and that
reducing wear is what put Mazda on the map. He specifically comments on
using bio oil fuels because it provides lubrication.

Rotary engines do have a better power to weight ratio. His clams may be a
bit inflated and the extra power may come at the price of very rapid wear.
Other than that, it looks like a great idea to me.

I would not invest in it only because I'm sure the patent for the Mazda
engine would infringe.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2006\04\14@201322 by Jinx

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> Looks like a rotary engine ala Mazda

Reminded me of split-cycle

http://www.splitcycle.com.au/

2006\04\14@204807 by Howard Winter

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James,

On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:05:55 -0700, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Looks like a rotary engine ala Mazda but with many more divisions which are
> finer and appear to be spring coupled to the shaft. This video is the best
> explanation:
> http://www.angellabsllc.com/images/video2.jpg
>

You mean a Wankel engine?  It doesn't look like any that I've seen.

> The problem with these (as I understand it) is that they wear out fast. I
> don't know why that would be, but I've been told that this is what the
> original inventor of the rotary engine died trying to perfect and that
> reducing wear is what put Mazda on the map. He specifically comments on
> using bio oil fuels because it provides lubrication.

The Mazda was a recent application, but in the 1960s there was the NSU Ro80, which famously guaranteed the
engines, and when drivers of them passed each other on the road they would hold up a number of fingers to
indicate the number of engines they'd had!  :-)  Much later there was a motorcycle that used a Wankel engine -
a Norton, I think.

> Rotary engines do have a better power to weight ratio. His clams may be a
> bit inflated and the extra power may come at the price of very rapid wear.
> Other than that, it looks like a great idea to me.

As you say, it was the rotor-tips that were the problem - they were carbon in the ealier engines, but maybe
Mazda came up with something better.

> I would not invest in it only because I'm sure the patent for the Mazda
> engine would infringe.

I believe Dr.Wankel worked for NSU, who were taken over by Auto Union, and Audi took them over - if anyone's
patents are involved, it will be theirs, but as I say, the pictures don't look like the Wankel engine anyway.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\04\15@015724 by Vasile Surducan

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On 4/14/06, Bob Axtell <spam_OUTengineerTakeThisOuTspamcotse.net> wrote:
> blackcat wrote:
> > Looks like many other "deluded inventor" scenarios
> > I have seen.  The guy talks about being in stealth
> > mode and the world will benefit greatly but not just yet.
> > Many other things about this scream to me that is
> > never going to happen.
> >
> > Gus
> >
> >
> Yes. The web is great for these guys; they finally have a voice. My wife
> (a mental
> health RN) has a ward full of 'em...

You've killed him pretty fast, don't you think ?
At least I hope you've read the patent entirely before judge it...
:)

greetings,
Vasile

2006\04\15@080558 by blackcat

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On 2006-Apr 14, at 11:57 PM, Vasile Surducan wrote:

On 4/14/06, Bob Axtell <.....engineerKILLspamspam@spam@cotse.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

You've killed him pretty fast, don't you think ?
At least I hope you've read the patent entirely before judge it...
:)

greetings,
Vasile

0000000000000000000
I admit Vasile that I am not judging the design so much as his
philosophical approach.  For better or worse, over 54 years I have
become very cynical when hearing about yet another " miracle design  
" [1]
by someone who claims to be friendly and open, yet always is in "stealth
mode" and obsesses about someone stealing the design.

If he builds the damn thing and it works, I will kiss his feet.  If he
makes exciting claims for years and nothing happens, I want to kick his
damn butt.

[1] Many times I have sat on a plane next to an "inventor' who wanted to
tell me about how he would change the world.  Except if he told me  
any details,
then he would have to kill me.

Gus
000000000000

2006\04\15@081427 by Peter Todd

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On Sat, Apr 15, 2006 at 06:05:56AM -0600, blackcat wrote:
> 0000000000000000000
> I admit Vasile that I am not judging the design so much as his
> philosophical approach.  For better or worse, over 54 years I have
> become very cynical when hearing about yet another " miracle design  
> " [1]
> by someone who claims to be friendly and open, yet always is in "stealth
> mode" and obsesses about someone stealing the design.
>
> If he builds the damn thing and it works, I will kiss his feet.  If he
> makes exciting claims for years and nothing happens, I want to kick his
> damn butt.
>
> [1] Many times I have sat on a plane next to an "inventor' who wanted to
> tell me about how he would change the world.  Except if he told me  
> any details,
> then he would have to kill me.

I've decided that when I come down with some sort of mental illness
involving delusions of grandeur I'm going to politely tell people about
my minor interesting ideas that could be of minor benefit to a small
section of some obscure industry...

--
petespamKILLspampetertodd.ca http://www.petertodd.ca

2006\04\15@193601 by William Chops Westfield

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> I have become very cynical about yet another " miracle design"
> by someone who claims to be friendly and open, yet always is in
> "stealth mode" and obsesses about someone stealing the design.

Among other things, I think it's become pretty much impossible for
a "lone inventor" to change the world (if any ever did.)  There's
a long way between a brilliant idea and a changed world, and it
takes a lot of people of various talents to make it happen.  Keeping
something secret is seldom productive; if you want to be paranoid,
it makes things too easy for the competition to eliminate you...

For instance, back in the dawn of cisco's history, there is quite
some controversy over just who "invented" the "multi-protocol router."
cisco's founders often get credit, but I doubt they themselves
would say so.  Meanwhile there's a guy at Stanford who's a bit
bitter about NOT getting the credit he deserves, but he was never
really interested in productizing it, and so on...
( smi-web.stanford.edu/people/tcr/tcr-cisco.html
  http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit19981210.html )
(and of course today's market gives lots of credit to people like
Morgridge and Chambers, who while undeniably important were
relative late-comers.)


> I'm going to politely tell people about my minor interesting
> ideas that could be of minor benefit to a small section of
> some obscure industry...
>
I thought's that what we did here on PICList?

 :-)
BillW

2006\04\18@054141 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Looks like many other "deluded inventor" scenarios
>I have seen.  The guy talks about being in stealth
>mode and the world will benefit greatly but not just yet.
>Many other things about this scream to me that is
>never going to happen.

My thought was that he had re-invented the Wankel engine.

2006\04\18@054744 by Alan B. Pearce

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>As you say, it was the rotor-tips that were the problem -
>they were carbon in the ealier engines, but maybe
>Mazda came up with something better.

Well, it wasn't Mazda themselves, but the mechanic who worked for the NZ
Rally Driver Rod Millen (who lives in USA and does things like the Pikes
Peak Hill Climb these days) that solved the problem. My understanding was
that the rotor tip failure mode was high wear which allowed excessive oil
burning. Rods mechanic came up with a better tip material, and Mazda saw the
potential, and assisted, although they were not running as a factory team.

Mazda then applied the technology to the production cars, and as they say,
the rest is history.

This was all happening back when the Mazda Rotary engined car was known as a
Cappela (at least in NZ) before they came up with the RX series model name.

2006\04\18@082801 by Russell McMahon

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>> by someone who claims to be friendly and open, yet always is in
>> "stealth mode" and obsesses about someone stealing the design.

> Among other things, I think it's become pretty much impossible for
> a "lone inventor" to change the world (if any ever did.)  There's
> a long way between a brilliant idea and a changed world, and it
> takes a lot of people of various talents to make it happen.  Keeping
> something secret is seldom productive; if you want to be paranoid,
> it makes things too easy for the competition to eliminate you...

I have a number of ideas which I hope will change the world at least a
noticeable amount. Depending on how things go I hope to actually try
implementing some of them in the next year. I have been accumulating
such for many moons and the time may (or may not) be right to see if
any of them are commercially viable.

The encouraging thing is that a fair percentage of my ideas are
'stolen' by people years, decades or centuries before I think of them
and shamelessly commercialised. ie if I can have ideas which are
original to me but subsequently prove to be 'old hat' and commercially
viable, then odds are that some of the others *may* be new and useful.

Thinking up or discovering truly fundamental concepts gets harder and
harder. Nowadays the best chance is probably to use an old idea in a
new way or do something moderately usual using innovative technology
that is already applied elsewhere. (Quite a lot of overlap there).

The counterflow heat exchanger never ceases to amaze me with its basic
elegance, high efficacy and significant lack of application in areas
that cry out for it. eg basic home dehumidifiers cool the air to below
dewpoint and then use the cooled air to cool the refrigeration unit
and motor and then exhaust into the room. What they SHOULD do is cool
refrigerator and motor with an ambient temperature fan and counterflow
the cold air against the incoming air. Depending on humidity and room
temperature, energy gains of 2 to 5 times can be expected. Nobody in
our markets is doing this. An extensive googling some while ago
finally turned up ONE US company who is doing it. As this is the
standard practice in large commercial dehumidification systems (eg for
telephone exchanges) it is far far from original and is unpatentable
in basic concept. In detailed application it will be patentable.  Home
dehumidifiers can use $5-$10/week in power - which adds up to far more
than the cost of the unit in a short time.

I also "invented" the condensing clothes dryer using counterflow
methods. Energy consumption drops markedly, outlet air is coolish and
dryish, water is condensed to a disposal tray. I was then told that
they have had these in Europe for many many decades - as well they
should have. But not here until recently.

Wherever you look there are opportunities for applying counterflow
heat exchanging. Just one idea of many.

I "invented" an innovative rocket fuel pump (as discussed here
recently) which has some real advantages over turbo pumps in SOME
applications, but which was also invented by Flometrics Ltd at the
same time, by Macdonnel Douglas a few years before that, by someone
else in about 1961 and in basic form in England in the 1700's (not for
rocket fuel then). It's good to find that Macdonnel Douglas value my
ideas enough to patent them before I think of them :-).

Another area crying out for intelligent application is Stirling Cycle
machines (aka Stirling Engines). Many fortunes have been lost thereon
but there is still much that can be done with them.

So, on with the list and .... :-)




           Russell McMahon








2006\04\18@084700 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I "invented" an innovative rocket fuel pump ...
> It's good to find that Macdonnel Douglas value my
>ideas enough to patent them before I think of them :-).

But at least you have prior art from the 1700s to combat any claim they may
bring against you ;))))

2006\04\18@091138 by Russell McMahon

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> http://www.plug2work.com/angellabsllc/index.html

The basic concept may be workable (whatever it is).
But the claims are unrealisable rubbish.
Any serious developers would rapidly realise they are rubbish.
But they still make them.
Therefore they are conmen.
Move along, these are not the ones you want ...

Because:

14" x 14" unit is said to make 3000 HP.
They compare it to a 45 ft^3 IC engine making 400 HP.
They have 32 cylinders, it has 6.
[[Aside - the cutaway seems to show perhaps 8 cylinders rotating in a
circular tunnnel/bore. 32 cylinders suggests multiple rotors -
probably 4. ]]

They claim better efficiencies than modern IC engine - but not vastly
so.
Give them say 30% (see their graph).
An IC engine has to eliminate approaching 80% of its energy input as
heat.
Cooling is a major issue in any high performance engine.
Their engien APPEARS to be air cooled.
But even if liquid cooled it would have no hope of removing excess
energy.
Energy density is about 3000/400HP x 45/2 ft^3 x 20/30 eff%
= pver 100 times more energy dense volumetrically.
It should cool nicely by radiation cooling if they can get a casing
that doesn't melt at 300 degrees C.

Power output is intimately related to fuel input.
Even with somewhat increased efficiency (say 50 % higher) power per
fuel is still  similar to a modern IC engine.
An engines power output is proportional to RPM x capacity/cylinder x
cylinders.
But capacity/cylinder x cylinders = capacity of whole motor.
Actual swept capacity is lower than engine volume but obviously engine
size is an upper limit.
Their engine is 14"x14" a say 6" wide for power cylinders =~ 70
litres.
Assume, charitably, that actual swept volume is 25% of this =~ 18
litres.
Not a small engine, but at 3000 HP one is not surprised.
So that's 3000/18 =~ 170 HP/litre.
Not an impossible figure from a modern IC engine by any means, but far
far above the "lightly stressed" level they suggest.
If the swept volume is half this the energy doubles to 340 HP litre.
If it's lower again ...

Would you like to reliably extract 3000 HP from any output shaft that
you could reasonably fit on any machine you see there. At even "only"
800 HP/rotor with 4 rotors can you imagine anything built like that,
or anything built any way you want in that volume, dealing reliably
with the power.

The lightness of construction of anything they show on site, lack of
cooling  and more MAY simple reflect deminstration examples/prototypes
etc BUT almost certainly not.

So ...


           RM


FWIW:    There have ben many many many rotary engines invented. The
trick is not thinking up a new one but working out how to make one
work reliably and efficiently at reasonable power densities. Working
out how to do it at magnificently unreasonable power densities is an
even better trick.

.



2006\04\18@091721 by M. Adam Davis

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What tips me off is that he's comparing irrelevant (and possibly
mis-calculated) information.  I don't care about the displacement, I
care about the engine torque.  When he talks about engine torque, he
doesn't talk about horsepower, he talks about foot pounds.

Then he compares his engine producing 800 or so ftlb or torque at
800rpm to the 800ftlb of torque the bugatti makes at redline, and then
says that his engine is obviously better.  It must be since it
produces as much torque at idle rpm as the bugatti does at redline.

Looking at the calculations to convert ft-lb to HP, I find that RPM
must be taken into account and apparantly his "800 or so ftlb or
torque at 800rpm" is equivilant to about 120HP.  Which is nowhere near
the bugatti, nevermind the cummins diesal he's always comparing his
engine to.

So, between that and the mention of a secret discovery they made that
allows the engine to run off uncompressed atmospheric air on their
test car with no fuel, I believe there is nothing here except an
interesting design in which the fatal flaws have not yet been
discovered - and probably relate to the complex looking construction
that makes the discs rotate correctly relative to each other and the
shaft position.

Plus, I can't imagine a tiny shaft such as the one on the engine they
show actually transmitting significant power, nevermind the "cylinder"
discs withstanding the forces involved without warping or twisting.

Interesting concept.

-Adam

On 4/14/06, blackcat <.....gscKILLspamspam.....omegadogs.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

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