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'[OT] IMP Ionic Magnetic Power - The New Form of En'
2011\03\04@091956 by Roger, in Bangkok

And "patent admission" is supposed to be proof what exactly?  Are there
scientific or engineering PEER reviews?


On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 21:12, Yigit Turgut <> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > --

2011\03\04@094836 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
He designed a system by exploiting subatomic energy levels and
projecting them to a macroscopic observable quantity. He got the
patent of the method/technique because he knows he will be making
money out of it. It is not clear for now that if he developed the
system from theory to application or reverse, which can happen in each
way. My personal opinion is theory should always come first in order
to control as many parameters as we can but sometimes a phenomena can
be observed (it's projection to macroscopic/observable world) before
its derivation from the theoretical model and then the theoretical
model is extended etc.I don't think proofing anything is his concern.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Roger, in Bangkok <> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2011\03\04@100117 by RussellMc

face picon face
> There are patent admission made by Hempel himself you can find them
> online (in german).
> It has been known that conservation of energy is only valid from a
> macroscopic point of view, this is another proof plus an application.
> Deserves standing ovation for his contributions.

1. Please retag as OT, standing ovations notwithstanding.

2. Knowledge of violation of conservation of energy at any scale is
new knowledge to me. Can you cite anything based on accepted
principles that I can look at.

3. So far nobody has provided any clue other than that these things /
this thing / something / theree ment wo men one man and ... makes
Any more clues?


2011\03\04@102627 by Joe Koberg

On 2011-03-04 07:52, RussellMc wrote:
> Ensure any replies are tagged [OT] PLEASE.
> If posting this sort of material please put it in [OT]:, if anywhere.
> And, if you post a link to a video it would be a very good idea to
> write at least a few sentences telling people what it is about and why
> it is worth watching.
> This video does not seem to make any statements at all about what IMP
> IS except tat it is a / the new form of energy. The name is
> meaningless without some clue to how the words relate to some physical
> reality.

Some drawing & patent links here:

The video alone convinces me it's a load of garbage.  Long on PR, short on facts.


2011\03\04@104742 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
In classical physics, there is no mechanism to allow for
non-conservation for energy. Since classical mechanics is pretty exact
for macroscopic objects, there is never any macroscopic violation of
conservation of energy.

However, for small enough (quantum) systems, we have the Heisenberg
uncertainty relation. The relation states:

Delta(E) x Delta(t) >= h/(4 )

Which means that the uncertainty in energy times the uncertainty in
time is greater than some very small number. Interpreted correctly,
this means that it is possible to violate conservation of energy given
you do it for a very short time, in other words, it is possible to
"borrow" energy E from "nowhere", given you return it in a time period
t, where t is given by

t ~ h/E

This "borrowing" of energy is so small that again by the uncertainty
principle, it can never be directly observed. In other words,
violation of conservation of energy can occur if and only if the
violation can not be observed due to the uncertainty principle.

However, there are "indirect" effects. One simple example could be the
nuclear force. The longest range part of the nuclear force is mediated
by exchange of pions (similar to the electromagnetic force being
mediated by photons). However, these pions are "virtual", meaning that
they can not be detected. They are just produced out of nowhere just
like energy. The amount of energy you need to create a virtual pion

E = mc2

where m is the mass of the pion, and c is the speed of light. Now, how
long can we "borrow" this much energy? By the previous argument, the
time will be:

t ~ h/mc2

If this virtual pion moves as fast as possible, it will move at the
speed of light. Then the distance it can travel is:

d = ct ~ h/mc

Of course, after traveling that distance, it would have to be absorbed
by another particle (and thus mediate the force). Therefore d is the
approximate range of the force. The amazing thing is, this gives a
pretty good value even for the range of the nuclear force.

To sum it up, yes, conservation of energy can be violated, but nature
makes sure it is always within the limits of uncertainty. In other
words, the energy must be returned, and the books set straight pretty
quickly. But, the fact that it can be violated is important, and
although it can never be observed directly, it does have important

Now for the Hempel's patent of IMP device ;

Charging current signal and charged with the charging current signal
device for generating electrical energy.The present invention relates
to a novel load current signal and a device for generating electrical
energy, which is charged with the charging current signal.A galvanic
cell is a device for spontaneous conversion of chemical into
electrical energy.It is used in batteries and
accumulators.Accumulators consist of one or more rechargeable
secondary cells,ie cells where the conversion of electrical energy
into chemical energy is reversible.In a storage battery is charging
the electrical energy converted into chemical energy.If a load is
connected, the chemical energy is converted back into electrical
energy.When charging and discharging of batteries also heat is
released whereby a portion of the charging energy spent is lost.The
charge efficiency, ie the ratio of extractable to the loading energy
needed is usually that of conventional batteries at about 60 to 95
percent. An optimal loading different accumulator types is usually
with not too high charging currents over a relatively long period of
time. For example, a 20-hour charging a car battery used as a
lead-acid battery quick charge in just a few hours with high load
currents is preferable, as the latter can the efficiency and reduce
the lifetime of lead-acid battery.

The present invention is the object of a new charging current signal
and a device to provide for generating electrical energy with which
the charge efficiency of galvanic cells and electrolytic capacitors is
increased considerably and the charge time can be shortened
considerably.This problem is solved with the features of claims 1 and
2.In the dependent claims preferred embodiments of the present
invention characterized.The present invention is based on the
observation that the application of a magnetic field to an ion cell,
particularly a lithium-ion cell that results in the current taken from
that cell has properties that can be characterized not only by the
current.It was found that the electricity generated in this manner is
particularly suitable for the separation of charge in galvanic
elements, that is, in other words to load galvanic elements, or for
charging of electrolytic capacitors is suitable.Since the so-generated
electricity, as will be explained in more detail by a description of
the experiment,
a charge separation in a galvanic cell or an electrolytic capacitor
causes the non-current physical findings following in a known way
correlated with the amount of supply of electrical energy,
below this charging current is referred to as a charging current
signal. A acted on by such a charging current signal galvanic cell
behavior shows a charge,that is optimized for loading time and the
necessity of charging current.The invention based on the description
of an experimental procedure and an example of an inventive device for
generating electrical energy is explained in more detail.

Test Description:

A scooter battery, in this case, a lead-acid battery, with a rated
voltage of 12 V and a capacity of 12 Ah was discharged through a load
slowly until the terminal voltage was only about 3 V. The discharge
was performed with a small discharge current, so that the scooter
battery remarkably heated.Then the scooter battery was connected to
four series-connected LitiumIonen batteries, which were prepared with
magnetic strips for recharging.The arrangement used by lithium-ion
battery, prepared with magnetic strips is described in detail in the
German patent application No. 10 2008 0920 806.9, filing date
24.06.2008, which are hereby expressly incorporated by reference,
described in detail.

The work described in this patent application device for generating
electrical energywith lithium-ion batteries has to be the series of
lithium-ion batteries have a parallel arrangement of one or more
electrolytic capacitor (s) on.Such electrolytic capacitors can be used
as temporary storage of electrical energy in the experiment described
here, but are not mandatory. In the experiment described here a series
connection was used with permanent magnetic strips prepared
lithium-ion batteries without parallel electrolytic capacitors.To
charge the battery, the above-described scooter lithium ion battery
assembly was connected to the battery.After about 20 minutes, the
moped battery is fully charged and was at its terminals a voltage of
about 14V, which is 2 V above their rated voltage.The amazingly short
time to fully recharge the battery scooter can be concluded, that has
gone into this time a very high charge current. The flows can be
measured directly,
by a DMM - meter was inserted into the circuit proved to be difficult
since it is not known why the charging time to full charge moped
battery rose sharply.

Nevertheless, to get an idea of the size of the charge current was at
one point the charging cable is cut and bridges the gap in the circuit
through cable sections with different cross-sectional area.The
Entladeund charging process such as described above was repeated
several times with each re-hired the very short loading time between 2
and 20 minutes.The most amazing was that itself was bypassed as the
circuit gap with a "telephone wire" with a cross-sectional area of
about 0.75 mm 2 and a length of about 20 cm, this is not heated above
room temperature.Thus it is clear that during charging of the
batteries within the short lead-time is not charging a stream of the
amount of energy that has won the lead-battery after charging again is

The required charging current should have been so great in the short
charging time, that he would have the "telephone wire" inevitably
brought to melt.This has not even warmed up, however.

This suggests that is converted in the above-described charging is not
the usual electrical energy from an electrical power source in a
galvanic storage of electrical energy, then this can be found after
subtraction of the converted heat energy in response, but that here in
the following charge current charge current signal called the galvanic
cell only "triggers"
i.e. that which takes place in the galvanic cell chemical reaction is
triggered only by the load current signal and is maintained not by a
corresponding addition of electrical energy.

It is clear that the described technical effect, namely the recharging
times of a galvanic element, which as described above generated charge
current signal and the inexplicably high charge efficiency at the
manner described above can be traced reproducible, as shown by the
large number of successful experiments carried out.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 5:00 PM, RussellMc <> wrote:
{Quote hidden}


2011\03\04@112220 by Joe Koberg

On 2011-03-04 09:47, Yigit Turgut wrote:
> meter was inserted into the circuit proved to be difficult
> since it is not known why the charging time to full charge moped
> battery rose sharply.

Whoops. He went to measure the charging current and couldn't reproduce the effect.  I have a feeling this is going to happen every time anyone else tries it.

I am sure he will just need some investors to give him some money for more research. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.


2011\03\04@114704 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> meter was inserted into the circuit proved to be difficult
>> since it is not known why the charging time to full charge moped
>> battery rose sharply.
> Whoops. He went to measure the charging current and couldn't reproduce
> the effect.  I have a feeling this is going to happen every time anyone
> else tries it.

I noticed.
I read that rather as "attempts to measure the result reduced the
charging current.
Similar but not the same as charge current can be inferred from other

As written the patent may as well be describing magic. This does not
make the product invalid but it seems "highly likely" to be non
genuine. Alas.


2011\03\04@122438 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
I think that's why he considers it as a new form of energy (which is
an assertive way to express it I suppose) because the conventional
measurement devices will measure electron flow per unit time which is
defined as classical electrical energy transfer. How much energy is
required to burn the specified cable should be determined and compared
with the capacitor output. He is using the wire because he doesn't
know how to measure the observed -so called- extra energy, it's effect
can be observed thermally but not a thermal change due to conduction
of electrons - as far as I can tell from the patent paper I read and
some videos on youtube. Assuming he's good intentioned and not a
fraud, the work needs some appreciation IMHO.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 6:46 PM, RussellMc <> wrote:
{Quote hidden}


2011\03\04@123937 by Joe Koberg

On 2011-03-04 11:24, Yigit Turgut wrote:
> some videos on youtube. Assuming he's good intentioned and not a
> fraud, the work needs some appreciation IMHO.

To me, the fact that time was spent on producing that slick PR video, instead of a clear and understandable diagram of the experiment so that other experimenters can reproduce the effect, is a clue to the intentions.  In the other videos, the cameraman seems to try very hard not to hold the camera still long enough for you to see/understand exactly what is on the table.

I've seen enough scams plastered over with "quantum effects" and "things science doesn't know" to hold the appreciation until I see repeatable results.  Most of them come with Youtube videos very similar to the one posted.

Joe Koberg

2011\03\04@151649 by IVP

face picon face
> 2. Knowledge of violation of conservation of energy at any scale is
> new knowledge to me. Can you cite anything based on accepted
> principles that I can look at.

FermiLab has noticed missing energy after collisions, one possibility
that it went with gravitons into a 4th dimension

Or maybe someone is pinching it to charge their cellphone

(Sorry Yigit, just kidding ;-)) )


2011\03\04@161642 by Yigit Turgut

picon face
Similar results were obtained at LHC as well, exact dates and times
correspond to moments I ...
I'll not tell until I make a patent admission for it (:

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 10:16 PM, IVP <> wrote:
{Quote hidden}


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