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'[OT] Common Schematic Software'
1998\08\13@174158 by Mike Ghormley

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Thomas McGahee wrote:
<snip>
> I think it would be a good idea if we *all* downloaded a copy of
> EAGLE Light so that we all have a common, FREE method for
> exchanging ideas in schematic form.

AFAIK the Eagle Light software only works in 32-bit OS's.  To use this
program rather than some of the other free schematic software available
would exclude a significant portion of this list that has resisted Gates'
hype since 1994.

Michael

*************************************************************************When th
e way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
*************************************************************************

1998\08\13@174754 by Harrison Cooper

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               And.....I have to say to this also.....yet another EDA
tool to learn.  I have a hard time keeping up with the 20 or so that I
already use.

               BUT....added to this...August 1998 of Electronic
Products has a good listing of demo/free EDA tools for VHDL, Verilog,
schematic capture, etc....


                               ----------

1998\08\13@181237 by Bob Blick

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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Harrison Cooper wrote:
>                 And.....I have to say to this also.....yet another EDA
> tool to learn.  I have a hard time keeping up with the 20 or so that I
> already use.
>                 BUT....added to this...August 1998 of Electronic
> Products has a good listing of demo/free EDA tools for VHDL, Verilog,
> schematic capture, etc....

I guess PDF is for now the least objectionable way to share drawings,
though I have yet to see a set of directions for ghostscript/ghostview
that don't assume you already know how to do it or what each program is
used for(typical UNIX help!).

Speaking of demo tools, what about this Lattice Synario starter kit? What
happens after 6 months if you still want to use it? Lattice won't tell me,
and I hate time-limited software. I'll keep using Warp with Cypress ISP
parts if Lattice is going to be so snobby.

Cheers,
Bob

1998\08\13@181909 by Harrison Cooper

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               Do what all good....err....thrifty? engineers
do.....reset the date on the machine so it thinks its still in the eval
period....   Of course....its only because we are still evaluating the
software...right?

1998\08\13@194554 by cousens

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part 0 818 bytes
> I guess PDF is for now the least objectionable way to share drawings,
> though I have yet to see a set of directions for ghostscript/ghostview
> that don't assume you already know how to do it or what each program is
> used for(typical UNIX help!).

I think most people would have the reader, but  not many have the
"writer"

How about gif
most people can read gif's
and to write just use whatever program you like and convert it to gif
with any of the shareware viewers ie: Graphics workshop
ie:
  Car regulator follows,  only 3649 bytes

PS Claudio Rachiele MUST GO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Peter Cousens
email: spam_OUTcousensTakeThisOuTspamher.forthnet.gr  phone: + 3081 380534
snailmail:  Folia, Agia Fotini, Karteros, Heraklion  Crete, Greece.

Attachment converted: wonderland:Regu1.gif (GIFf/JVWR) (00013062)

1998\08\13@201043 by Harold Hallikainen

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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:02:46 +0000 Bob Blick <.....bobKILLspamspam@spam@TED.NET> writes:
>On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Harrison Cooper wrote:

>I guess PDF is for now the least objectionable way to share drawings,
>though I have yet to see a set of directions for ghostscript/ghostview
>that don't assume you already know how to do it or what each program
>is
>used for(typical UNIX help!).


       There's a pretty neat javascript class that lets you take HPGL
plotter files convert them to an intermediate file format, put them on
the web, and make them viewable in java-enabled browsers.  I've got the
demo running at http://hallikainen.com/dove  .
       Looks pretty neat.


Harold



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1998\08\14@044556 by OP

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I posted this to another list to help transfer scematic info ,

For anyone interested,

This is how I create PDF files

1) Create the document in whatever program you can print out on in windows
i.e.: Corel Draw, PageMaker, Illustrator, PhotoShop. PDF really shows its
strength when dealing with structured drawing programs. Like a schematic
layout or even PCB layout program.

2) You need to install a printer driver from a generic HP PostScript
printer, I use the one from the win95 install disks, but there are others
available online as well. 1. Goto control panel 2. Printers 3. Add printer
4. Select Post Script Printer.  5. Select "Print to File"
3) Goto http://www.ghostscript.com and download both ghost script, and ghost view
you will only be using ghost view, but it is merely a GUI to ghostScript.

4) After the printer driver is working correctly, choose print setup in the
program you used to create the file. Choose the PostScript printer. It will
ask for you to give it a file name, anyname.ps is the format you type in.

5) Open the document you just saved in GhostView, now choose, Print, then
choose print to file, and pdfwrite. You will have to name the file
"anyname.pdf"

6) to check your work you can open that file you printed to pdfwrite in
acrobats reader


----------
{Quote hidden}

me,
> and I hate time-limited software. I'll keep using Warp with Cypress ISP
> parts if Lattice is going to be so snobby.
>
> Cheers,
> Bob

1998\08\14@045016 by Mark Birks

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This is EXACTLY as I do it.

I also use the Ghostscript to get graphics files to include in WORD etc etc.



      \\\|///
    \\  - -  // "Yes it IS safe
     (  @ @  )   to switch on"
+---oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------------+
| Mark Birks                       |
| Hardware Section Leader          |
| OmniBus Systems, Stanford House, |
| Stanford-on-Soar,                |
| Loughborough, Leicestershire. UK.|
|                                  |
| Tel/Fax: +44 (0)990 004300/333   |
| E-Mail: EraseMEmarkbspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTomnibus.co.uk      |
|   ooo0                           |
|  (    )   0ooo                   |
+---\  (----(   )------------------+
    \_)     ) /
           (_/



> {Original Message removed}

1998\08\14@055708 by Frank A. Vorstenbosch

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Bob Blick wrote:
>
> On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Harrison Cooper wrote:
> I guess PDF is for now the least objectionable way to share drawings,

*bzzzzt* wrong! thank you for playing...

I'd say that raw postscript is more likely to be understood by people
(including all those that can't run Acrobat), or GIF is a good choice
because anyone capable of browsing the web graphically can see gifs.

Frank
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank A. Vorstenbosch     <SPAM_ACCEPT="NONE">    Phone: 0181 - 636 3000
Electronics and Software Engineer                 Mobile: 0976 - 430 569
Eidos Technologies Ltd., Wimbledon, London        Email: favspamspam_OUTeidos.co.uk

1998\08\14@060131 by Ake Hedman

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This list is incredible. This is the best tip of the year.
T H A N K S ! !

/Ake

{Quote hidden}

1998\08\14@082801 by cousens

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OP wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Since installing my OKIPAGE driver my fax won't work correctly and keeps
crashing even after countless reinstalations !
Another print driver ?  no way unless I have four weeks to spare
and I have a new computer (nothing on the harddisk to lose or corrupt)

Peter Cousens
email: TakeThisOuTcousensEraseMEspamspam_OUTher.forthnet.gr  phone: + 3081 380534
snailmail:  Folia, Agia Fotini, Karteros, Heraklion  Crete, Greece.

1998\08\14@083357 by cousens

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OP wrote:
>
> I posted this to another list to help transfer scematic info ,
>
> For anyone interested,
>
> This is how I create PDF files
>
> 1) Create the document in whatever program you can print out on in
windows
> i.e.: Corel Draw, PageMaker, Illustrator, PhotoShop. PDF really shows
its
> strength when dealing with structured drawing programs. Like a
schematic
> layout or even PCB layout program.
>
> 2) You need to install a printer driver from a generic HP PostScript
> printer, I use the one from the win95 install disks, but there are
others
> available online as well. 1. Goto control panel 2. Printers 3. Add
printer
> 4. Select Post Script Printer.  5. Select "Print to File"
> 3) Goto http://www.ghostscript.com and download both ghost script, and ghost
view
> you will only be using ghost view, but it is merely a GUI to
ghostScript.
>
> 4) After the printer driver is working correctly,

Since installing my OKIPAGE driver my fax won't work correctly and
keeps
crashing even after countless reinstalations !
Another print driver ?  no way unless I have four weeks to spare
and I have a new computer (nothing on the harddisk to lose or corrupt)

Peter Cousens
email: RemoveMEcousensspamTakeThisOuTher.forthnet.gr  phone: + 3081 380534
snailmail:  Folia, Agia Fotini, Karteros, Heraklion  Crete, Greece.

1998\08\14@090026 by Martin Darwin

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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Frank A. Vorstenbosch wrote:

> *bzzzzt* wrong! thank you for playing...
>
> I'd say that raw postscript is more likely to be understood by people
> (including all those that can't run Acrobat), or GIF is a good choice
> because anyone capable of browsing the web graphically can see gifs.

Well, from a quick look at the adobe page, Acrobat reader works on quite a
few systems (Win95,NT,3.1,Mac,Linux,AIX,SunOS,Solaris,IRIX,Hp-UX,Digital
Unix, OS/2). That's a pretty good list IMHO. The only two OS's they are
missing that I know of are DOS (no graphics anyway) and AmigaOS. Besides
you need Acrobat to view almost all datasheets (unless you are getting
them in printed form).

Postscript ends up being a pain in the ass if you don't have a postscript
printer (i.e. having to get Ghostscript et al.) GIF's are good too. It
should be upto whoever is supplying the schematic to decide what format to
use.

MD

1998\08\14@094843 by Harrison Cooper

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               *sigh*

               don't ya hate it when your name is used out of context?
I never said that about PDF......or did I? I have a hard time
remembering what I said longer than a day or two ago....

               My opinion?  I like PDF for creating final documents,
and because I can embed scanned data sheets and vendor documents into my
final one document.

               Schematics?  Doesn't matter to me.  I have access to
just about anything that could read them, from OrCad to Viewlogic to
DesignCad to AutoCad......to ghostscript....but everyone can view .jpg
or .gif, so perhaps that might be the best way?

               Maybe someone had the best idea.  Most programs can
output a gerber  or dxf format.  It was shown sometime ago about a free
gerber viewer.  And an addon to convert from dxf to gerber.

                               ----------
                               From:  Frank A. Vorstenbosch
[SMTP:favEraseMEspam.....EIDOS.CO.UK]
                               Sent:  Friday, August 14, 1998 4:54 AM
                               To:  EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
                               Subject:  Re: [OT] Common Schematic
Software

                       Bob Blick wrote:
                       >
                       > On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Harrison Cooper wrote:
                       > I guess PDF is for now the least objectionable
way to share drawings,

                       *bzzzzt* wrong! thank you for playing...

                       I'd say that raw postscript is more likely to be
understood by people
                       (including all those that can't run Acrobat), or
GIF is a good choice
                       because anyone capable of browsing the web
graphically can see gifs.

                       Frank

------------------------------------------------------------------------
                       Frank A. Vorstenbosch     <SPAM_ACCEPT="NONE">
Phone: 0181 - 636 3000
                       Electronics and Software Engineer
Mobile: 0976 - 430 569
                       Eidos Technologies Ltd., Wimbledon, London
Email: RemoveMEfavEraseMEspamEraseMEeidos.co.uk

1998\08\14@102002 by lilel

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Peter wrote:
>
> How about gif
> most people can read gif's


Agreed.  Your scematic came through just fine.  I have been posting
GIFs of schematics instead of ASCII, I can't make sense of ASCII
schematics half the time, and have never tried to write one.  Anyone
with a browser can read GIFs.


-- Lawrence Lile

    "The ideal design has zero parts"  -
           (attributed to Harold Hallikainen)

Download AutoCad blocks for electrical drafting at:
http://home1.gte.net/llile/index.htm

1998\08\14@121129 by Frank A. Vorstenbosch

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Martin Darwin wrote:
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Frank A. Vorstenbosch wrote:
>
> > *bzzzzt* wrong! thank you for playing...
> >
> > I'd say that raw postscript is more likely to be understood by people
> > (including all those that can't run Acrobat), or GIF is a good choice
> > because anyone capable of browsing the web graphically can see gifs.
>
> Well, from a quick look at the adobe page, Acrobat reader works on quite a
> few systems (Win95,NT,3.1,Mac,Linux,AIX,SunOS,Solaris,IRIX,Hp-UX,Digital
> Unix, OS/2). That's a pretty good list IMHO. The only two OS's they are
> missing that I know of are DOS (no graphics anyway) and AmigaOS. Besides
> you need Acrobat to view almost all datasheets (unless you are getting
> them in printed form).

I'm sure I can list at least as many as you did that don't have an
Acrobat
reader.

> Postscript ends up being a pain in the ass if you don't have a postscript
> printer (i.e. having to get Ghostscript et al.)

[snip]

OK, lets examine this in a bit more detail:

Case 1:  You run one of the operating systems that you listed above.
        In that case, either a Postscript or a PDF file would be OK,
        because your system runs both Ghostview and Acrobat.

Case 2:  You run any operating system that doesn't support Acrobat but
        does run Ghostview.  In this case, you can view Postscript and
        (with some restrictions) use it to view PDF.

Case 3:  Any other operating system.  You can't view PDF files at all,
        but if you happen to have a Postscript printer around (as
anyone
        should have) you still can view Postscript.

So for case 1 doesn't make a difference, whereas in cases 2 and 3 the
open
Postscript wins over closed Acrobat.

In many cases, Postscript files are human readable to some extent, so if
you're desparate you can still read it.  PDF files are usually
compressed
and therefore not readable -- for example you can't do a grep on a whole
directory of PDFs to find a particular one like you can with PS.

Enough about this...

Frank
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank A. Vorstenbosch     <SPAM_ACCEPT="NONE">    Phone: 0181 - 636 3000
Electronics and Software Engineer                 Mobile: 0976 - 430 569
Eidos Technologies Ltd., Wimbledon, London        Email: RemoveMEfavspam_OUTspamKILLspameidos.co.uk

1998\08\14@125501 by Bob Blick

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> So for case 1 doesn't make a difference, whereas in cases 2 and 3 the
> open
> Postscript wins over closed Acrobat.
>
> In many cases, Postscript files are human readable to some extent, so if
> you're desparate you can still read it.  PDF files are usually
> compressed
> and therefore not readable -- for example you can't do a grep on a whole
> directory of PDFs to find a particular one like you can with PS.

One thing to note, however. UNIX users are used to fiddling
for(seemingly)ever to make something work, whereas Windows users want a
simple point and click.  That would suggest PDF over Postscript. I'm
generalizing here, of course.

I am going to try to figure out how to make ghostscript/ghostview to work.
Putting large schematics on a web page as gifs does not work well for me.

No simple solutions, eh?

Cheers,
Bob

1998\08\14@135058 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 8/14/98 6:00:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
RemoveMEmartinTakeThisOuTspamspamDAVIN.OTTAWA.ON.CA writes:

<<
> *bzzzzt* wrong! thank you for playing...
>
> I'd say that raw postscript is more likely to be understood by people
> (including all those that can't run Acrobat), or GIF is a good choice
> because anyone capable of browsing the web graphically can see gifs.

Well, from a quick look at the adobe page, Acrobat reader works on quite a
few systems (Win95,NT,3.1,Mac,Linux,AIX,SunOS,Solaris,IRIX,Hp-UX,Digital
Unix, OS/2). That's a pretty good list IMHO. The only two OS's they are
missing that I know of are DOS (no graphics anyway) and AmigaOS. Besides
you need Acrobat to view almost all datasheets (unless you are getting
them in printed form).

Postscript ends up being a pain in the ass if you don't have a postscript
printer (i.e. having to get Ghostscript et al.) GIF's are good too. It
should be upto whoever is supplying the schematic to decide what format to
use.
 >>
OK time for my 2 cents worth!

Hi Everyone

Try the schematic compression routine on http://www.zonn.com

It will take any black and white scan of a schematic and compress it so it
will travel well on the web.

Compresses better than 2 to 1 over PKzip.  It has been optimized for B&W line
art style schematic images.

Dave Duley

1998\08\14@140531 by William Chops Westfield

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Being able to transmit schematics using Eagle's freeware version of their
software would have advantages FAR BEYOND just being able to view/print
the schematics.  The same would apply to any commonly available schematic
editor, of course...

BillW

1998\08\15@035454 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hi,

only as additional information. There IS an Acrobat Reader for DOS. For
the sake of truth, it can not handle all the bells and whistles (e. g.
hyperlinks and other fancy stuff). But, for a graphics, it can be helpful.

Imre

On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Martin Darwin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\08\16@130001 by Tom Handley

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  Bob, I'm going to use the PDF format when I release my logic analyzer
schematics. I was using GIF as a `common denominator' but with some EDA
tools, I've found it difficult to capture/convert to that format while
maintaining the original drawing. I was also in the process of moving my
documentation to MS Word format and providing a link to a MS Word viewer.
Instead, it will also be PDF and I'll add the Acrobat link to my web page.
I'll definitely include a text file to explain the archive and any release
notes.

  As far as Lattice's software, I would assume that after 6 months, it
expires like they claim. When you install it, you enter the ID of the hard
drive that it's installed on. Then they send you an activation code. I got
mine the next working day.

  However... Cypress recently added Verilog support at no cost. This was a
major development in providing low-cost tools. Given the reluctance to put a
lot of $$$$/$ in vendor-specific tools at the low-end CPLD/FPGA level, and
the competitive market, this may be a trend. Synario is a Data I/O product
and I don't know the details of Lattice's (or other vendor's) relationship
with them. Since I'm use to the Lattice/Synario environment, this 6-month
evaluation was a `gawd-send' for me. The last time I checked this it's
around $3000 worth of tools. I've always had a problem with justifying the
costs of such vendor-specific tools given the fact that they sell a vendor's
product... I'm `hoping' that Lattice will notice increased sales of their
products and consider removing the time restriction or pricing the tools in
a range that's similar to Cypress.

  - Tom

At 03:02 PM 8/13/98 +0000, Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs...

1998\08\16@154748 by Peter L. Peres

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On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, John A. Craft wrote:

> Is there any standard way to interpret an IR transmission?
>
>
> Given an IR stream like this  ____|````|____|````|____|````|____
>
> The signal is detected on the transistion to high, and the pulse width is
> known, will sampling in the middle of each pluse do?  Or is there another
> method?

If this is a remote control signal, with ppm, then no, you need to look at
the edges. If it's a barrier, you can look in the middle. The problem is,
that if the source is not iso-synchronous with your code, the 2 will
slowly slip out of sync (slowly is within seconds or less even with good
crystals).

Peter

1998\08\17@020148 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Mike Ghormley wrote:

> Thomas McGahee wrote:
> <snip>
> > I think it would be a good idea if we *all* downloaded a copy of
> > EAGLE Light so that we all have a common, FREE method for
> > exchanging ideas in schematic form.
>
> AFAIK the Eagle Light software only works in 32-bit OS's.  To use this
> program rather than some of the other free schematic software available
> would exclude a significant portion of this list that has resisted Gates'
> hype since 1994.
>
> Michael
>
> *************************************************************************When
the way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
> Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
> *************************************************************************
>
>
Nope.

I have Saturday Eagle Light installed under pure DOS. It costs whole 10
minutes. It is great. I can recommend it everebody.

Imre

P.S.: I haven't Window$, I did not have it and I won't have it.
FYI.

1998\08\17@021236 by Mike Ghormley

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Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

> I have Saturday Eagle Light installed under pure DOS. It costs whole 10
> minutes. It is great. I can recommend it everebody.

I have also discovered the DOS version and am favorably impressed.  I sure wish
that
they had a WIN3.x version, but the DOS version has very good GUI.

I'm willing to use it as our defacto standard, but will wait (but not hold my
breath  ;^) for a consensus from the group.

Michael

*************************************************************************
When the way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
*************************************************************************

1998\08\17@032333 by Frank Hreczuch

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Greetings all...!

Guess I'll add my two cents worth here...!  I'm currently using
Wintek's "HiWire" for schematic drawings and board layouts.
I also have tried out Orcad for a period of time, but gave up
on it because it was not as flexible as Hiwire and the updates
cost far too much..!!!

I, too, am willing to try something else here....!

Frank

1998\08\18@060715 by Michel Van den Bergh

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Hi,

Tried the freeware version of Eagle (W950. Seems to be relatively easy to use
and rather capable.  It never  crashed. Quite unusual for W95
software.

On a different note. How do can I calculate the minimum width of a track
if I know how much current it has to carry? (I know the math, but I
would prefer a rule of tumb).

Regards,
Michel

1998\08\18@114053 by Reginald Neale

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>Hi,
>
>Tried the freeware version of Eagle (W950. Seems to be relatively easy to use
>and rather capable.  It never  crashed. Quite unusual for W95
>software.
>
>On a different note. How do can I calculate the minimum width of a track
>if I know how much current it has to carry? (I know the math, but I
>would prefer a rule of tumb).
>
>Regards,
>Michel

If you can find a copy of

 Reference Data for Engineers: Radio, Electronics, Computer,
 and Communications, Seventh Edition

 H.W.Sams, 1985 ISBN 0-672-21563-2

There is a graph on page 5-27 that shows temperature rise vs. current for
several width/weight combinations.

Reg Neale

1998\08\18@121619 by Eisermann, Phillip

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{Quote hidden}

       I have a copy of that book, 7th edition. My chart is on 5-30?

       another good reference are the IPC standards, from which the
figure
       in the SAMS book was copied. there's also some place on the web
       that has posted a scanned-in picture of that table (Alberta
Printed Circuits?),
       with no attribution.

       The old document was IPC-D-275, superseded by IPC-2221. I think
IPC may
       still be selling the old D-275. I have no idea what the prices
are on these,
       but they have a web site at http://www.ipc.org. It (the
standard) is geared
       more towards the PCB assembly process, but a great reference for
those who
       design PCB's.

       IPC's phone is (847) 509-9700

1998\08\18@154140 by Reginald Neale

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Phillip wondered:

>> There is a graph on page 5-27 that shows temperature rise vs. current
>> for
>> several width/weight combinations.
>>
>>
>        I have a copy of that book, 7th edition. My chart is on 5-30?
>

Errk. You're right. Another brain fart. The "Printed Circuit" Section
begins on 5-27, and I was looking at the index. Thanks for the correction,
and for the reference to the web page with the chart on it.

Reg Neale

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