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'[OT] Two flat tires 30 minutes apart'
2011\09\06@165407 by YES NOPE9

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I have asked a question at the end of the note.

I have two used tires ( obtained at Mexican tire shop ) on the front of my Explorer.
1/4 inch of tread is left.  I was driving on a dirt road that had rocks on it from time to time.  The rocks were as large as 1 inch.

First I got a slow leak on the passenger side front tire.  I fixed that with a plug of tar? impregnated string.  Father down the road there was a soft !bang! and the driver side tire was leaking from a hole about 5 mm wide.  I put some impregnated string in this hole and slowed the leak such that the tire would hold air about two hours ( I am waving my hand in the air ).

Since it was *labor day holiday Monday* no tire shop was open where I was.
I elected to drive back to Denver with two cans of tire inflator at the ready.
I was stopping every 10 minutes to look at both tires.
15 minutes out of Fairplay , I ran into a massive traffic stoppage.  The traffic was NOT moving at all as far as the eye could see ( which was about a kilometer ).  I did a U-turn and pulled off on a side road.

Now I decided to extract the spare tire and replace the driver's front tire..  I had two lug wrenches and an ABS cheater pipe.  I weigh 111 kilograms and have medium large muscles.  After straining , standing on the wrench , etc...... ( since the lug wrenches extend away parallel to the centerline of the lug , it is hard to get super good torque ) ..... I was unable to remove any ( that is zero ) of the lugs.

I drove back to Fairplay.  ( I am omitting a lot of swear words in this description ).  After trying to find an impact wrench ( none ) , finding a huge crescent wrench ( did not work ) ..... I called a tow truck.  Just then a large teenager happened by and he and I applied the T-lug wrench to the lugs.  He was utterly amazed at how tight they were.  We got 4 of the 5 lugs off and then ( as I feared ) , the lug wrenched snapped  ( previously could see that it was winding up ).  With even more difficulty we removed the last lug with the one-side wrench ( which flexed quite a bit ).  As each lug released , it made a cracking noise.

I oiled the lugs , put on the spare , cancelled the tow truck , and went back to Denver using an alternative route.

Could these have been counterfeit tires ?  It appears they can be easily hole punched by a rock.  They say they are steel-belted radials.  Looking closely , the sidewalls seem to be wobbly with a sine curve of period 30 to 40 cms and an amplitude of 5 mm.   Normally I do not drive on rocky roads.

99guspuppet

2011\09\06@170904 by Dave

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Hi from broomfield!

Could have been tires that were run flat for a ways. Hard to say without more data.  Did you see any steel when you did the patch?

YES NOPE9 <spam_OUTyesTakeThisOuTspamnope9.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\09\06@172555 by Carl Denk

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I wouldn't expect standard tires to have an issue with the 1" rocks. You don't give manufacturer's name/model/size info. Since these tires were bought in a foreign country (not USA), did they have a DOT (USA Dept. of Transportation) number on them? That would identify the plant where they were made. It probably is illegal to use tires that are missing the DOT number. Could these tires been retreaded? Why did you buy two tires in a foreign country, and not at home before departing. In particular, I wouldn't put questionable tires on the front of a vehicle.

Stubborn lug nuts (bolts) can frequently dealt with by pushing down on the wrench with a foot, and pulling up with hands grasping the auto body at the wheel opening area. That way, both your weight and lifting force of arms/back are additive. Standard practice should be, every time the bolts are tightened, to take a hand wrench and assure they are movable. Also the bolts should be lubricated with a few drops of oil on both the threads and the conical surfaces occasionally.

To find help, I probably would have asked at gasoline service station, or local police, even call 911, or other businesses. Locals at those places probably have friends that could help.

On 9/6/2011 4:54 PM, YES NOPE9 wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\09\06@172826 by Jim Higgins KB3PU

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Received from YES NOPE9 at 09/06/11 20:54 UTC:

>I have two used tires ( obtained at Mexican tire shop ) on the front of my
>Explorer.

>I was unable to remove any ( that is zero ) of the lugs.


I can't comment on the authenticity/quality of the tires, but advice for the future is to never allow anyone to use an impact wrench to tighten the lug nuts.  If you can't watch the job being done, then when picking up the car, in the parking lot, use your manual lug wrench to slightly loosen and retighten the lugs.  If you can't loosen them, make the shop do it, otherwise you're screwed when you need to change a tire on the road...  as you found.  Perhaps your problem was age and rust, but there's some fairly good advice here for the future.

Oiling or greasing the bolts and lug nuts changes (lowers) the torque needed to tighten them properly and if a slippery enough grease is used in conjunction with an impact wrench with a defective torque limiter you can damage the bolts.  That can be dangerous.

Hope this is some help even if it doesn't answer your original questions.

Jim H

2011\09\06@173302 by Herbert Graf

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On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 14:54 -0600, YES NOPE9 wrote:
> I drove back to Fairplay.  ( I am omitting a lot of swear words in this description ).  After trying to find an impact wrench ( none ) , finding a huge crescent wrench ( did not work ) ..... I called a tow truck.  Just then a large teenager happened by and he and I applied the T-lug wrench to the lugs.  He was utterly amazed at how tight they were.  We got 4 of the 5 lugs off and then ( as I feared ) , the lug wrenched snapped  ( previously could see that it was winding up ).  With even more difficulty we removed the last lug with the one-side wrench ( which flexed quite a bit ).  As each lug released , it made a cracking noise.

Unfortunately I can't comment on the tires, but I can on "too tight"
lugs. This is actually pretty common. MANY shops (and this includes
dealers and "brand name" shops) don't always torque lugs properly. To
save 5 seconds they just use the impact gun and tighten to "feel". More
often then not this means they are WAY over torqued. Sometimes (which
happened to me) they are undertorqued and the wheel almost falls off
(luckily I caught it before it happened). Most people never notice
because they don't take their own wheels off. Most shops don't notice
since they just turn up the torque wrench and leave it hammering until
the lug comes off (which will sometimes cause ABS sensors to fail...).

My dad (master mechanic by trade) and I once helped a guy who had been
in this situation. We had the tools to apply WAY to much torque to the
lugs, and they still didn't budge (we actually started to MOVE THE CAR).
In the end, it took both of them with about a 1 meter long breaker bar
and me, revving the engine and applying the brakes as hard as possible
to undo the lugs. AMAZINGLY none of the lugs broke. He was VERY lucky.
(pays also to have good tools, old Snap-On sockets can take a beating!).

> I oiled the lugs , put on the spare , cancelled the tow truck , and went back to Denver using an alternative route.

This is VERY DANGEROUS. NEVER lube lug nuts or studs. All that will
happen is the lugs will come loose and eventually fall of. I've suffered
a blow out, it's scary, but controllable. A tire falling off? That is a
disaster that is VERY likely to get you killed.

Please: Do what you can to remove every trace of oil on your studs, look
up the PROPER amount of torque (should be in your owners manual, if not,
google is your friend, a normal amount for alloys is around 80-90ft/lbs)
and torque them to that amount (if you don't have a torque wrench,
please get one, they are pretty cheap these days).
TTYL

2011\09\06@175952 by Carl Denk

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I am looking at my 1996 Ford Bronco shop manual, section 04-04-10, "Wheels and Tires". Under removal and installation: If corrosion is light, clean corrosion... LUBRICATE first 3 thread with graphite-based lubricant.

But, I can say that here in Northern Ohio with salt used heavily on icy roads, a light coating of oil in the area will minimize corrosion. I have personally maintained my vehicles for more than 50 years, which have included everything from VW bugs, Porsches, Ford Escorts, various passenger cars and Pickups including 3 Ford Broncos (heavier SUV's then the subject), many of which were driven more than 100,000 miles be fore selling. All the vehicles had all wheels pulled to inspect the brakes, suspension, and tires twice a year, and at time, oil was provided if need be. I never had a lug bolt loosen, and never had issues with loosening bolts!

Please provide a reference to the suggestion below, to remove any oil.

On 9/6/2011 5:33 PM, Herbert Graf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2011\09\06@181053 by Carl Denk

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One other questionable item, along with the DOT number. Were these the proper tire size, wheel size, and load rating for the vehicle weight, and kept at the proper inflation. Maybe these were Bridgestone/Firestone tires recalled several years ago on the Explorer. :)

2011\09\06@182207 by Bob Blick

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On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 5:59 PM, "Carl Denk" wrote:
> I am looking at my 1996 Ford Bronco shop manual, section 04-04-10,
> "Wheels and Tires". Under removal and installation: If corrosion is
> light, clean corrosion... LUBRICATE first 3 thread with graphite-based
> lubricant.
>
> But, I can say that here in Northern Ohio with salt used heavily on icy
> roads, a light coating of oil in the area will minimize corrosion. I
> have personally maintained my vehicles for more than 50 years, which
> have included everything from VW bugs, Porsches, Ford Escorts, various
> passenger cars and Pickups including 3 Ford Broncos (heavier SUV's then
> the subject), many of which were driven more than 100,000 miles be fore
> selling. All the vehicles had all wheels pulled to inspect the brakes,
> suspension, and tires twice a year, and at time, oil was provided if
> need be. I never had a lug bolt loosen, and never had issues with
> loosening bolts!

I swap tires around on my Miata a couple of times a month, so I don't
have any problems with corrosion. But the studs and nuts would wear out
from all that action if they were dry. I put a little antiseize on maybe
once a year. At recommended torque I find that a lug here or there will
loosen up sometimes, but they are not the factory wheels or lugs, so the
recommended torque is just a number. I find I must go five pounds over
for them to stay tight.

In order for lugs to stay tight, a certain amount of deformation of the
lug and/or its threads need to be present. Even if there is lubricant,
that deformation should prevent it from loosening.

Friendly regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own

2011\09\06@184638 by Dave

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My Firestone tires of death ran 96k on my explorer.
Carl Denk <.....cdenkKILLspamspam@spam@windstream.net> wrote:

>One other questionable item, along with the DOT number. Were these the
>proper tire size, wheel size, and load rating for the vehicle weight,
>and kept at the proper inflation. Maybe these were Bridgestone/Firestone
>tires recalled several years ago on the Explorer. :)
>
>

2011\09\06@193233 by IVP

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> LUBRICATE first 3 thread with graphite-based lubricant

A dry lubricant, like graphite or molybdenum, would be better
than oil, which holds on to dust. Around the workshop I try not
to use too much oil. Maybe a squirt of CRC or WD-40 here
and there

I'd have thought the elasticity of the wheel hub would keep the
nut firmly in place, but if it did come loose then oil might just
help it come off further. Unless the oil is full of grit, jamming the
threads

You'd have to assume that the major manufacturers et al have
done safety tests. Wanting to avoid people being killed and
whatnot. Their recommendations are probably soun

2011\09\06@204307 by Carl Denk

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If I remember correctly, the safety issue was mainly due to improper care (inflation). :~(  If you got 96K on a set of Explorer tires, you took very good care of them, which is as it should be. :) :) Also seems that driving technique has much to do with it. Always a good grip on the steering wheel, and just like a pilot's #1 job, fly the plane, the driver's is drive (steer) the vehicle.  There is a video out there of a full size SUV, back axle sliding sideways until vehicle is 90 degrees to travel, and rolls over. All the time the front wheels we pointed straight ahead. Probably a brief steering correction and no problem.

On 9/6/2011 6:46 PM, Dave wrote:
> My Firestone tires of death ran 96k on my explorer.
>
> Carl Denk<cdenkspamKILLspamwindstream.net>  wrote:
>
>    
>> One other questionable item, along with the DOT number. Were these the
>> proper tire size, wheel size, and load rating for the vehicle weight,
>> and kept at the proper inflation. Maybe these were Bridgestone/Firestone
>> tires recalled several years ago on the Explorer. :)
>>
>> --

2011\09\06@204639 by Carl Denk

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Were the lug bolts furnished with the wheels? If not the lugs and wheel's mating surfaces may not have the same contour? i.e. conical angle, spherical radius, etc.
> I swap tires around on my Miata a couple of times a month, so I don't
> have any problems with corrosion. But the studs and nuts would wear out
> from all that action if they were dry. I put a little antiseize on maybe
> once a year. At recommended torque I find that a lug here or there will
> loosen up sometimes, but they are not the factory wheels or lugs, so the
> recommended torque is just a number. I find I must go five pounds over
> for them to stay tight.
>
> In order for lugs to stay tight, a certain amount of deformation of the
> lug and/or its threads need to be present. Even if there is lubricant,
> that deformation should prevent it from loosening.
>
> Friendly regards,
>
> Bob
>
>

2011\09\06@213202 by Jim Higgins KB3PU

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Received from Bob Blick at 09/06/11 22:22 UTC:

>In order for lugs to stay tight, a certain amount of deformation of the lug
>and/or its threads need to be present. Even if there is lubricant, that
>deformation should prevent it from loosening.


Yes, you want to stretch the bolt a bit, but nowhere near its elastic limit.  That's what the specified torgue is designed to do with dry threads.  Lubricating the threads reduces friction between bolt and nut so the same torque generates greater stretch.  Probably not a problem when using a "standard length" manual lug wrench, but an issue to be considered when some impact wrench jockey goes nuts tightening the bolts.

I'd  **GUESS**  that any direction to lube ONLY THE FIRST THREE THREADS with dry graphite is probably meant to keep lube off the bearing surface between the nut and the rim when the nut is tight.

Jim H

2011\09\06@225715 by Bob Blick

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On Tuesday, September 06, 2011 8:46 PM, "Carl Denk"  wrote:
> Were the lug bolts furnished with the wheels? If not the lugs and
> wheel's mating surfaces may not have the same contour? i.e. conical
> angle, spherical radius, etc.
> > I swap tires around on my Miata a couple of times a month, so I don't
> > have any problems with corrosion. But the studs and nuts would wear out
> > from all that action if they were dry. I put a little antiseize on maybe
> > once a year. At recommended torque I find that a lug here or there will
> > loosen up sometimes, but they are not the factory wheels or lugs, so the
> > recommended torque is just a number. I find I must go five pounds over
> > for them to stay tight.

They are both conical, and when I bought the wheels I asked for matching
nuts, and they do.

Chances are it's just that you really should re-torque after a few hours
of driving. But when I put on my sticky tires I want the wheels to stay
on all day, so I go five pounds over. Since I've been doing that I have
never had any motion when I re-torque.

And that may explain why tire shops regularly overtighten - they don't
want a nut to come loose and they don't care if they warp a rotor/drum.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

2011\09\07@095039 by Carl Denk

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> Chances are it's just that you really should re-torque after a few hours
> of driving. But when I put on my sticky tires I want the wheels to stay
> on all day, so I go five pounds over. Since I've been doing that I have
> never had any motion when I re-torque.
>
>    Certainly is a good practice to check torque after a few miles, but for most drivers, quite inconvenient.
> And that may explain why tire shops regularly overtighten - they don't
> want a nut to come loose and they don't care if they warp a rotor/drum.
>
>    The poorer quality workmanship shops probably as a cost savings. The Goodyear dealer chain that I usually go to uses "Torque Sticks".
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060705192044AAt9HBD
Though it says not a replacement for a torque wrench.
I have found 100% of the time there not to be a loose or overly tight bolt. I have to admit, I do not use a torque wrench on my wheel bolts, but use a calibrated human arm. :)

There are bolts used in vehicles that are one time usage, cylinder head bolts being one of the common areas. These bolts are stretched during installation, and their characteristics change with the stretch. They also probably have a special lubricant, and should not be oiled unless the shop manual directs to be.

It's interesting in the structural engineering world of building/bridge construction, the torque wrench is not the preferred method of tightening bolts since the late 1980's. "Turn of the Nut" method is the generally accepted method, where the nut is tightened to a snug condition, and then given an extra specified rotation, depending on grip length, bolt size, etc. Typically 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. If a torque wrench is to be used, then a device that measures the bolt tension is used to measure the torque necessary provide the required clamping force. This must be done for every batch of bolts, and if the lubricant/condition of the threads changes, must be done again. My first job out of college was field engineer on a large bridge project where I had a 7' long torque wrench, and checked bolts 180' in the air for tightness

2011\09\07@102511 by Herbert Graf

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On Tue, 2011-09-06 at 17:59 -0400, Carl Denk wrote:
> I am looking at my 1996 Ford Bronco shop manual, section 04-04-10,
> "Wheels and Tires". Under removal and installation: If corrosion is
> light, clean corrosion... LUBRICATE first 3 thread with graphite-based
> lubricant.

That's the first 3 threads, with a graphite based lubricant. VERY
different from "oiled the lugs", plus that's "if corrosion is light", I
rarely see ANY corrosion on wheel studs.

{Quote hidden}

Why would you have corrosion issues on lugs? I've pulled LOTS of wheels,
only time I've ever had seized lugs is when they were on and unused for
many years (things like an axle with wheels attached to it sitting in a
farmers field for years).

I've sees rims glue themselves on to the hubs due to corrosion over
short periods of time (my Subaru did that to me all the time, very
frustrating), but never lugs.

TTYL

2011\09\07@164925 by Robert Rolf

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Bob Blick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Sounds like you need to go to a better tire store.

At Costco South Edmonton, they used to have TWO people do the final tightening. One checked the torque wrench setting, then the other guy tightened. Then the 2nd guy verified the setting and the first guy went around and checked that that torques were correct. I was rather surprised that they took the extra time, but I guess their lawyers went anal on them (or the 2nd guy was in training??).

At least Costco uses a proper torque wrench for final tightening.
I'd never take my business to a shop that relied on the air wrench settings. So take a few minutes to watch how they work in the shop so you'll know what method to expect.

Robert

2011\09\08@044330 by alan.b.pearce

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> At least Costco uses a proper torque wrench for final tightening.
> I'd never take my business to a shop that relied on the air wrench
> settings. So take a few minutes to watch how they work in the shop so
> you'll know what method to expect.

My local chain tyre shop here in the UK uses a torque wrench to do the final tightening. All the other nut work is done with a power gun, with the torque limit set below the required final setting, then finished with the wrench.


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2011\09\08@054327 by cdb

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I saw a US TV program a year or so ago, where after a horrific roadcrash involving a college kid's father who had just purchased four brand new tyres for the car so that his son and friend could go on a trip together. After the death of the two boys, it was discovered that the tyres had failed at normal speed (30mph or so IIRC)  he investigated the selling of tyres and it was discovered that many new tyres are actually sold past their first use date (part of the DOT code). According to Firestone and Dunlop tyres have a shelf life of 5 years, but many tyre places have stocks much older than that including car manufacturers. The tyre companies stated they have a scheme for aged non used tyres to be returned, but apparently few shops take advantage of it.

I haven't regoogled the whole story, but I do recall checking my then brand new Peugeot and found that two of the tyres were just inside the 5 year from manufacture time frame.

Colin
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