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PICList Thread
'[OT] : bitcoin mining rigs'
2011\06\20@220128 by M.L.

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On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:43 PM, YES NOPE9 <spam_OUTyesTakeThisOuTspamnope9.com> wrote:

> >
> > On Jun 20, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Tobias Gogolin wrote:
> >
> > Now here is something to get yer' heads smoking!
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin
> >
> > Anybody got me a source of one of these?
>
> Are you planning to defraud others of their property ?
> Or produce counterfeit currency ?
> If so, please take it off this list.
>

Bitcoin is quite a real concept, although the whole thing seems quite fake
just the same. There is no "defrauding" going on. It's cryptographically
"finding" bitcoin money.

-- Martin K

2011\06\20@223602 by RussellMc

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Slouch hat.
Vaguely smoking brain feeling:


This (so far) does seem to be a legitimate and possibly useful topic
of discussion.
As "bitcoin" provides a currency with anonymity somewhere between cash
and centralised banking systems it has the potential for abuse BUT it
is (AFAICS) in no way illegal or wrong in its own right.

Just as one would not normally assign moral or legal "values" to
"cash", this is (it appears to me) a novel but real means of exchange
with value based on the commodities it is used to pay for.

I don't expect I will be using it :-)

See

    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin

for explanation of system including terms such as "mining".


        Russel

2011\06\21@004633 by Roger, in Bangkok

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Uuhhh ...
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/06/21/bitcoin-currency-collapse-where-next-for-digital-cash/

RiB

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 09:35, RussellMc <.....apptechnzKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\21@011505 by RussellMc

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WARNING: Taking this conversation out of the monetary exchange systems
arena into the political merit arena is liable to end its life
promptly (past events being any guide).

> http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2011/06/21/bitcoin-currency-collapse-where-next-for-digital-cash/

Reading that, it was crashed by hackers and reduced to about zero
worth BUT then rolled back by the Bitcoin administrators.
Note that every bitcoin carries a complete record of its life history
"internally".

Hardly hands off laissez faire BUT wouldn't it be nice to do that to
eg "a currency that many of the list members use day to day" - or any
of the PIGS.
Apparently (and what would I know) if G goes down then German and
French banks are heavily invested and may fold. And U' banks are well
represented investors with teh F&G banks so ....  Here we go again ...
.. Unless they can manage a bitcoin like intervention. In the "real
world" the attempts are made before the event rather than after. After
you get only ambulances at the bottom of the cliff, with no rollback
allowed.


2011\06\21@110704 by Paul Hutchinson

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu On Behalf Of Tobias Gogolin
> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:23 PM
>
> There is nothing illegal about owning or trading BitCoin, <snip>

The legal status of Bitcoin is not clear, the Electronic Frontier Foundation
had been accepting them for donations, but yesterday stopped and is giving
away what they have received to avoid potential legal problems.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/06/eff-and-bitcoin

"1. We don't fully understand the complex legal issues involved with
creating a new currency system. Bitcoin raises untested legal concerns
related to securities law, the Stamp Payments Act, tax evasion, consumer
protection and money laundering, among others. And that's just in the U.S.
While EFF is often the defender of people ensnared in legal issues arising
from new technologies, we try very hard to keep EFF from becoming the actual
subject of those fights or issues. Since there is no caselaw on this topic,
and the legal implications are still very unclear, we worry that our
acceptance of Bitcoins may move us into the possible subject role."

Paul Hutch

2011\06\21@114316 by Michael Watterson

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On 21/06/2011 16:07, Paul Hutchinson wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam.....mit.edu On Behalf Of Tobias Gogolin
>> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:23 PM
>>
>> There is nothing illegal about owning or trading BitCoin,<snip>
> The legal status of Bitcoin is not clear, the Electronic Frontier Foundation
> had been accepting them for donations, but yesterday stopped and is giving
> away what they have received to avoid potential legal problems.
>
> https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/06/eff-and-bitcoin
>
> "1. We don't fully understand the complex legal issues involved with
> creating a new currency system. Bitcoin raises untested legal concerns
> related to securities law, the Stamp Payments Act, tax evasion, consumer
> protection and money laundering, among others.

The creators are too naive:

In creating a virtual currency  that's not backed by a sovereign state you need:
1) Design methods to exchange to other currencies from the start.
2) Assume people are more ingenious and more totally evil than you can imagine
3) Assume exchanges will be hacked
4) Assume it will be forged
5) Assume it will be "stolen" from people via social engineering, trojans or other black hat stuff.

Bitcoin is doomed and at best will become a pyramid scheme or ponzi scheme benefiting a few before it dies, no matter how altruistic the creators are/where. Once people start treating a currency as either an investment or something to speculated with (not quite same thing, cf. shares in someone that pays good dividends and shares in Apple, who pay no dividend) the currency is no longer a currency, but will be treated like shares. That ultimately destroys it's value to pay for goods and services.

Even if it was backed by a Sovereign state, most of the above applies.

Real currencies generally only have problems when Governments do something really stupid. Occasionally of course events are manipulated by those with a vested interest in seeing company fail due to share collapse or hyperinflation.

a) The most stupid thing Greece could do would be leave Euro and resurrect Drachma. That would of course hurt the Greeks most, with 500%++ hyper inflation  and total collapse of Greek banking and economy. A Default would be implied. It would still hurt EU, USA, China etc a lot, more than their financial people would find acceptable.

b) The 2nd most stupid thing would be to let the Greeks stay in Euro and Default. If you owe the bank $500,000 they will happily foreclose. If you owe the bank $5,000,000,000 they will figure a way to help you pay off interest, give you an interest holiday, reduce part of the debt (haircut) etc. So the EU, IMF even USA ultimately (maybe even Chinese)  will keep funding Greece. But want assurances that they are "mending their ways". So both "sides" will go to the 23:59:59 before a new agreement..


This thread isn't going to go anywhere good either

2011\06\21@115832 by Herbert Graf

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On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 16:43 +0100, Michael Watterson wrote:
> The creators are too naive:

Maybe, or perhaps revolutionary, time will tell.

> In creating a virtual currency  that's not backed by a sovereign state
> you need:

First off, let's correct a few misconceptions. bitcoins are SUPPOSED to
be "different" from "regular" currency, that was the point.

Second, bitcoins should not be treated as traceable. They are SUPPOSED
to basically be the same as cash, untraceable. So, with that said, I'll
provide counterpoints:

> 1) Design methods to exchange to other currencies from the start.

Why? There was a time when most currencies had ZERO government backed
methods of exchange. There are STILL currencies that cannot be exchanged
through official means (try walking into a US bank with cash from Cuba
to see what I mean). A currency is more useful if it can be freely
exchanged, but that is by no means a necessity.

> 2) Assume people are more ingenious and more totally evil than you can
> imagine

Hence the "everybody sees everything" model, it's only when everybody
has seen and basically approved of the transaction that things go
through.

> 3) Assume exchanges will be hacked

Every heard of bank heists? It's basically the same thing. The presence
of bank heists surely hasn't effectively the legitimacy of the USD, or
any other currency.

> 4) Assume it will be forged

Cash is forged ALL that time. Last stat in canada was something like
every 30 of 1,000,000 notes in circulation in Canada are forged (down
from something like 400 a decade ago).

> 5) Assume it will be "stolen" from people via social engineering,
> trojans or other black hat stuff.

Umm, that happens ALL THE TIME with "normal" currency. Scam artists have
been convincing people to let go of their money for as long as money has
existed.


Will bitcoin survive? I have my doubts. It has a few features that are
REALLY cool. It has many features that "the man" REALLY hates. It has
some features that completely go contrary to monetary theory. None of
that guarantees success or failure IMHO.


I for one hope it, or something like it survives and flourishes. Our
society tends to believe in competition, why should currency have a
competitor?

TTYL

2011\06\21@123056 by Michael Watterson

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On 21/06/2011 16:58, Herbert Graf wrote:
> Umm, that happens ALL THE TIME with "normal" currency. Scam artists have
> been convincing people to let go of their money for as long as money has
> existed.
>

I agree roughly all you say. My point is that to be a competition currency you must assume and survive with all those things. Including speculation. Bitcoin is to naive.

A Currency that can't be exchanged to other currencies is useless unless almost everyone accepts it. No-one outside Cuba or Zimbabwe WANTS to use their currencies.

We have many currencies, plenty of competition. Cash can't be traced (Cash is mysteriously separate to currency). However some people want to abolish cash (a Debit card is not cash, it is cashless currency). I don't agree with abolishing cash.

We may need a virtual cash for existing currencies as Debit cards are not cash.

I can't see what bitcoin does usefully except be a vehicle for yet another pyramid scheme, people are treating it (foolishly) as an investment not a currency. It's an interesting experiment and computing "toy". A real competing currency? no

2011\06\21@123802 by Bob Blick

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On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:30 +0100, "Michael Watterson" wrote:

> I can't see what bitcoin does usefully except be a vehicle for yet
> another pyramid scheme, people are treating it (foolishly) as an
> investment not a currency. It's an interesting experiment and computing
> "toy". A real competing currency? no.

And anyone who has just heard of Bitcoin and thinks they can get rich
off it? They are way too late to the party.


-- http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

2011\06\21@124355 by Peter Johansson

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On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Bob Blick <EraseMEbobblickspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTftml.net> wrote:

> And anyone who has just heard of Bitcoin and thinks they can get rich
> off it? They are way too late to the party.

Personally, I have strong suspicions that it is these "latecomers" who
are responsible for the recent situation.

-p

2011\06\21@133202 by RussellMc

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> We have many currencies, plenty of competition. Cash can't be traced
> (Cash is mysteriously separate to currency). However some people want to
> abolish cash (a Debit card is not cash, it is cashless currency). I
> don't agree with abolishing cash.
>
> We may need a virtual cash for existing currencies as Debit cards are
> not cash.

Way WOT ish but:

When I travel I carry as much cash as I reasonably think wise.
No, I never get near the $US10k declaration limit.
I exchange this for the currency of choice with the (entirely legal)
street vendors in the destination country at a  fraction of a percent
variation for the going exchange rate. This is vastly better than the
banks, VISA, paypal or the thieves in the glass boxes at the airports
will give you. If I need more money I top up my VISA card to be in
credit and draw cash from ATMs in as large a chunk as seems wise.
Banks tend to charge $7.50 (NZ) per cash withdrawal plus VISA exchange
rate fees. So largish lumps wanted to keep % cost down. Usually still
a good way of doing things. VISA gets used for large transactions such
as internal airfare bookings and hotel charges.

When transiting Australia with a few hours + delay always have some Oz
currency available to buy food etc - the thieves in the glass boxes
are allowed (unlike in Asia) to charge an upfront 'commission) and do.
This makes smaller exchanges have effective profit margins of many
tens to hundreds of percent. A related discussion about their busines
practices with such people is always an interesting way to while away
the time :-).

Try changing Hungarian currency in Slovakia* :-).
I tried it just for fun.
Outcome and reaction was as expected.
Would have been the same the other way as well I imagine.

Most shops in Hong Kong will not accept Chinese RMB.
RMB is always slightly stronger than HKD ie is worth slightly more per unit..

The 7/11 stores in HK will happily accept RMB and treat them as on par
with HKD.
1.204:1 at present !!!
A nice little earner.
Why other stores don't do this I know not.

WOTtier
Jetstar is notionally Singapore based.
Jetstar think in $Australian for internal pay as you go meals.
Prioces for eg CocaCola in $A are stiff but acceptable.
They will accept $NZ and $Singapore for drinks.
BUT their exchange rate is about 50% higher than normal if you pay in
Singapore $.
The thieves in the glass boxes at Australian airports have their
counterparts here.
Get out yer $A stash and don't let them get away with it.

WoTtier
Air Asia will life-insure you for a few $ per 100k to fly around SE Asia
BUT you sign away access rights to all your medical data of any sort
forever when you buy it.






                 Russell

* Slovak Republic?
_at

2011\06\21@134826 by Michael Watterson

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On 21/06/2011 17:43, Peter Johansson wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Bob Blick<bobblickspamspam_OUTftml.net>  wrote:
>
>> >  And anyone who has just heard of Bitcoin and thinks they can get rich
>> >  off it? They are way too late to the party.
> Personally, I have strong suspicions that it is these "latecomers" who
> are responsible for the recent situation.
>
> -p.

Is Little Dorit the earliest bit of literature where a "Ponzi" Scheme is a major plot item?
Or is Trollope's "The Way We Live Now" older or newer?

I'm surprised the Victorians didn't have a Telegraphic "bitcoin". It was about 20mins after telegraph was running in London that there was "Spam".

"Even though it was not called spam yet, the first spammed messages were actually distributed over telegraph lines in the late 1800s after Western Union began to allow messages to be sent to multiple destinations. Although private telegraph ownership was rare, those people would receive an occasional advertising message."

www.economist.com/opinion/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=10286400
"ON A May evening in 1864, several British politicians were disturbed by a knock at the door and the delivery of a telegram—a most unusual occurrence at such a late hour. Had war broken out? Had the queen been taken ill? They ripped open the envelopes and were surprised to find a message relating not to some national calamity, but to dentistry. "

2011\06\21@135145 by Michael Watterson

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On 21/06/2011 18:31, RussellMc wrote:
> Try changing Hungarian currency in Slovakia*:-).
> I tried it just for fun.
> Outcome and reaction was as expected.
> Would have been the same the other way as well I imagine.
>

Slovak Crown  now gone
It's Euro now.

The Hungarians had a bad track record with currency. 2nd worst hyper inflation

2011\06\21@144317 by RussellMc

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>> Try changing Hungarian currency in Slovakia*:-).
>> I tried it just for fun.
>> Outcome and reaction was as expected.
>> Would have been the same the other way as well I imagine.

> Slovak Crown  now gone
> It's Euro now.

That was 2003
Trucks queued for 3+ days to get from Czech republic into Slovakia. Really.

That would have been PHIGS then ?

(PIGSH, GHIPS (alphabetical), PHIGS (don't give a ),  ...?)

R

2011\06\21@174009 by Tobias Gogolin

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I think there is more investigation due on the subject.
Considering that there will ever only be 21Million Bitcoins, eventually you
be happy to make a milli or micro Bitcoin per hour!
Compare 21 Million to the trillions in a national economy and you know what
I mean!
There might also bitcoin wallets be lost (private keys deleted) and that
will additionally cause the deflation that some here might call ponzi
scheme...
Anyhow that people will try to create fake bitcoin and try to dupe people or
plainly steal their wallets is not an argument for considering conventional
currencies superior!
We are witnessing revolution happening Guys, enjoy! What brilliance for
somebody to envision how this all could be implemented open source and peer
to peer!

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:38 AM, Bob Blick <@spam@bobblickKILLspamspamftml.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\21@182354 by Tobias Gogolin

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www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/20/japanese-supercomputer-becomes-worlds-fastest/
<www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/20/japanese-supercomputer-becomes-worlds-fastest/>I
am beginning to suspect that the recent Japanese potentially haarp and
stucks worm incidence might be related with this revolution too!
I been hearing that US policy was openly critizised in Japanese government
houses (faking 911 mobilization related) (2009- present)
Feb 06 2011 Bitcoin surpases the dollar first time
then this recent declaration of open exchange (war?) from the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace) page
which some speculate is a Asian idea too:

In reaction to a Gawker <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gawker> article on the
marketplace[1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace)#cite_note-GawkerChen-0>,
US Senators Charles Schumer <en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Schumer>
and Joe Manchin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Manchin> sent a letter to
to US Attorney General Eric Holder<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Holder>
and DEA <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEA> Administrator Michele
Leonhart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michele_Leonhart> insisting
that the agency shut down the
marketplace.[5]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace)#cite_note-bthc-4>
[6]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace)#cite_note-openletter-5>
In
a press conference <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_conference> Schumer
described Silk Road as follows:

It's a certifiable one-stop shop for illegal drugs that represents the most
brazen attempt to peddle drugs online that we have ever seen. It's more
brazen than anything else by
lightyears.[7]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace)#cite_note-SecNarc-6>

Subsequently, Silk Road's administrators posted on the Silk Road forums the
following statement:

The die have been cast and now we will see how they land. We will be
diverting even more effort into countering their attacks and making the site
as resilient as possible, which means we may not be as responsive to
messages for a while.

I'm sure this news will scare some off, but should we win the fight, a new
era will be born. Even if we lose, the genie is out of the bottle and they
are fighting a losing War
already.[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace)#cite_note-7>

After this attention, traffic to the website increased dramatically and the
bitcoin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin> saw a corresponding rise in
value.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace)#cite_note-dbvc-2>
Sellers
are mostly based in the USA and
Britain.[3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silk_Road_(anonymous_marketplace)#cite_note-dbvc-2>
--------------------
Anyhow its a Matrix time to be alive!


On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Herbert Graf <KILLspamhkgrafKILLspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2011\06\21@183658 by Bob Blick

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Sounds like you are working on a lot of things at once.
Do you have a facebook page or something so that people can follow your
research if they are interested, because it's all a little too much at
once for the Piclist.
Seriously, it's a little too much for the Piclist.

Thanks,

Bob


On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:23 -0700, "Tobias Gogolin"  wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an
                         unladen european swallow

2011\06\21@185900 by YES NOPE9

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TG
I have no objection to you posting this cool stuff on the PIClist.
I am looking through your links.....
I would like to be able to follow your research on a blog of yours when you are inevitably
blown off the PIClist by somebody with hurt feelings.
99guspuppet
>
> On Jun 21, 2011, at 4:23 PM, Tobias Gogolin wrote:
>
> www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/20/japanese-supercomputer-becomes-worlds-fastest/
> <www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/06/20/japanese-supercomputer-becomes-worlds-fastest/>I
>
> (snip )

2011\06\21@192841 by Michael Watterson

face picon face
On 21/06/2011 23:36, Bob Blick wrote:
> Japanese potentially haarp
fantasy  ...

2011\06\21@194102 by Bob Blick

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As I said:

Seriously, too much for the Piclist.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 00:28 +0100, "Michael Watterson" wrote:

> > Japanese potentially haarp
> fantasy  ...

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders
                         wherever you are

2011\06\21@194951 by Tobias Gogolin

picon face
I'm not going to say anymore, because I love and respect you guys of the
Piclist!
However I will say that I am accepting donations; be it for sharing my
enlightenment - at 1LCupcVd8HhAGyVhd3xayPpnQHeis7rAiV


On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:58 PM, YES NOPE9 <RemoveMEyesTakeThisOuTspamnope9.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

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