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'[OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis'
2005\12\29@140903 by Mike Hord

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This question touches on a number of possibly
volatile points, but I think we can avoid too much
trouble if we stick to the point.

Given New Zealand's extraordinary antinuclear
stance, is there any allowance in that stance
for fusion-based nuclear power generation?
Or fusion-based nuclear research?

Mike H.

2005\12\29@171058 by Jinx

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> Given New Zealand's extraordinary antinuclear
> stance, is there any allowance in that stance
> for fusion-based nuclear power generation?
> Or fusion-based nuclear research?

I doubt whether there would be much practical research going
on into power generation. Perhaps some clever chaps in Physics
Departments may do some theory and go overseas for practical,
but I've always thought that work here with nuclear materials is
more along the lines of the analytical, eg what can we measure
with this bit of caesium ?

http://www.gns.cri.nz/

There are three main reasons why any sort of nuclear energy
power generation won't be a goer in NZ, which kind of puts
the kibosh (** Harold, see below ;-)) ) on spending money/
resources investigating it

1) government policy, which I think is generally supported by the
population

2) there are many cleaner alternatives available - hydro, thermal,
wind and solar for example. And new ones are being looked at
all the time, eg tidal, bio-mass

3) the demand doesn't warrant the infrastructure needed to
safely run nuclear


=====================
** http://www.worldwidewords.org/articles/kibosh.htm

2005\12\29@173123 by Jinx

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I wrote -

> 2) there are many cleaner alternatives available

By which I meant the perceived "cleanliness" of current fission
technology, including accidents, waste management etc. Even
if you don't say "it's just like a little H-Bomb" and tried as hard
as you could to distinguish fission from fusion, people would
probably still associate any "nuclear power" with Chernobyl,
terrorists and Hiroshima. The anti- rallies would be many and
often

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power

2005\12\29@174038 by Mike Hord

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> > 2) there are many cleaner alternatives available
>
> By which I meant the perceived "cleanliness" of current fission
> technology, including accidents, waste management etc. Even
> if you don't say "it's just like a little H-Bomb" and tried as hard
> as you could to distinguish fission from fusion, people would
> probably still associate any "nuclear power" with Chernobyl,
> terrorists and Hiroshima. The anti- rallies would be many and
> often
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power

I didn't want to argue over it- fusion doesn't leave the nasty
by products of fission, nor have the potential for huge meltdowns
that contaminate large land areas, but it still has a hard time
competing for cleanliness with solar, tidal, geothermal, etc.

Of course, NZ is unlikely to ever have a huge population
density demanding massive power generation facilities.  OTOH,
as a first world nation, your power demands will only go up, and
I'd hate to see NZ's environment ruined (not likely, though).

Mike H.

PS- How's the paddlesports community down there?  Lots of
good canoeing?

2005\12\29@194555 by Jinx

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> PS- How's the paddlesports community down there?  Lots of
> good canoeing?

Oh, where to start ? NZ must be the world leader in things to do
outside. You can paddle to your heart's desire and get arms like
Popeye (geh-geh-geh-geh-geh-geh-geh)

Two long thin islands, plenty of coast and rivers - where *can't*
you paddle ?

Just Google, eg

http://www.truenz.co.nz/kayaking/

Remember though, if you're out on a long trip, take sandwiches or
have a hot meal on the bank. No cooking allowed in the boat. Or
as they'd say around here, you can't have your kayak and heat it

(groans and pity laughter)

2005\12\30@071556 by Pearce, AB \(Alan\)

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>Remember though, if you're out on a long trip, take sandwiches or
>have a hot meal on the bank. No cooking allowed in the boat. Or
>as they'd say around here, you can't have your kayak and heat it
>
>(groans and pity laughter)

Oh dear, Jinx has been listening to the reruns of My Word on the BBC again ...
Alan (holidaying at home in the rain)


part 2 3262 bytes content-type:application/ms-tnef; (decode)

part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2005\12\30@072808 by Jinx

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> > you can't have your kayak and heat it
>
> > (groans and pity laughter)

> Oh dear, Jinx has been listening to the reruns of My Word on
>  the BBC again ...

Well, not lately actually. A long long time since I heard a My
Word or My Music. You don't forget Frank Muir in a hurry.
"No tern unstoned", "The gay Miss Harp" etc etc etc. Very
clever stuff (so too Norden/Muir's The Glums)

> Alan (holidaying at home in the rain)

"Sitting in an English garden, waiting for the sun.
If the sun don't come
you get a tan from standing in the English rain"


'[OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis'
2006\01\02@094024 by Russell McMahon
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> There are three main reasons why any sort of nuclear energy
> power generation won't be a goer in NZ, which kind of puts
> the kibosh (** Harold, see below ;-)) ) on spending money/
> resources investigating it

... Jinx 1-3 +

4) Any benefits from Nuclear power at this stage would be far far far
outweighed by the potential dangers to the country's economy from any
sort of nuclear accident. We live and (hope not to) die on our primary
produce and our freedom from various nasties due to our large
geographic separation across oceans from major land masses. Our very
small size and long thin geography mean that a 3 mile Island or
Chernobyl or even Mururoa or even Japanese minor containment type
issue would wreak havoc with our 'clean green'ness (no matter how
illusory) for unforseeable yonks.

I'm no Luddite (despite what it may appear from some of my stances)
but am sure enough that Nuclear power makes very little sense for us
in the foreseeable future. Just dam another river and ... :-).


The weather forecast for tomorrow is fine and warm and very very very
bright ... :-)




           RM

2006\01\02@175345 by Peter

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On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Russell McMahon wrote:

> 4) Any benefits from Nuclear power at this stage would be far far far
> outweighed by the potential dangers to the country's economy from any sort of
> nuclear accident. We live and (hope not to) die on our primary produce and
> our freedom from various nasties due to our large geographic separation
> across oceans from major land masses. Our very small size and long thin
> geography mean that a 3 mile Island or Chernobyl or even Mururoa or even
> Japanese minor containment type issue would wreak havoc with our 'clean
> green'ness (no matter how illusory) for unforseeable yonks.
>
> I'm no Luddite (despite what it may appear from some of my stances) but am
> sure enough that Nuclear power makes very little sense for us in the
> foreseeable future. Just dam another river and ... :-).

How about if one of your volcanoes starts to leak a little ? Like Mt.
St.Helens ? Not that they don't already, but I mean in the context of a
feared nuke accident ?

http://www.natureandco.co.nz/land_and_wildlife/landforms/volcanics/active.php3

Peter

2006\01\02@220749 by Danny Sauer

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Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Mon, Jan 02 at 16:57:
> On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Russell McMahon wrote:
> > 4) Any benefits from Nuclear power at this stage would be far far
> > far outweighed by the potential dangers to the country's economy
> > from any sort of nuclear accident.
[...]
> How about if one of your volcanoes starts to leak a little?
[...]

So, because one thing that no one can control might cause a problem,
it'd be alright to introduce more potential problems?  I mean, the gas
tank in my car could explode given a set of very specific
circumstances, so there's no good reason for me to replace that worn
steering mechanism or bother to wear my seatbelt? :)

--Danny

2006\01\02@223737 by Jinx

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> so there's no good reason for me to replace that worn
> steering mechanism or bother to wear my seatbelt? :)

Absolutely not - might as well drink, smoke , put fresh lippy
on, quick shave (choose one) and TXT while driving at twice
the speed limit (flip, everyone else does ;-))

Thing is, what if Yellowstone Park caldera went up tomorrow
(poor Yogi and BooBoo, forlornly and pointlessly seeking
shelter from falling red-hot boulders under a picanic basket).
We're all screwed and I tidied up for nothing ? It might not even
be volcanic. One decent landslip on Hawaii could swamp NZ
and Aus as it has done in the past. Oh, and large parts of SE
Asia too I spose

The whole nuclear issue is a very touchy subject in NZ, and
not just energy production. It goes a lot deeper, into politics
and trade

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0506/S00185.htm

Even if the ANZUS relationship was restored, from the present
A(who?)US, nuclear power plants would still not be accepted/
acceptable, especially when there are so many other untapped
(possibly because presently they're under-funded and under-
researched) "cleaner" alternatives

I say "cleaner" because they aren't impact-free but not exactly
polluting or potentially serious hazards if they go wrong. eg a
tower in a wind farm falls over ? BFD, don't have to reach for
the iodide or gather the kids up for one last Big Mac and hug

2006\01\03@062849 by Russell McMahon

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>> 4) Any benefits from Nuclear power at this stage

for NZ

>> would be far far far
>> outweighed by the potential dangers to the country's economy from
>> any sort of
>> nuclear accident.
...

{Quote hidden}

Absolutely no comparison.
None at all.
Another good volcano would kill from a few dozen to maybe a few tens
of thousands of people, maybe even 100,000 and we'd get on with life
(if we weren't one of aforesaid victims). A decent (or an indecent)
nuclear accident would trash certain aspects of our economy for,
essentially, ever.

My city is built on 50+ volcanoes. The next one is overdue and should
be bigger than all the prior ones combined.

Our Mt Taupo (so big that nobody can see it so they don't call it Mt
Taupo)(they call it the volcanic plateau if they call it anything) is
*THE* biggest volcano on earth over the last 20,000 years or so. And
it's still quietly alive. Enough so that there are hot springs at
north and south extents of the crater lake. And the crater lake is
about 30 miles long and 20 miles wide :-). And its babies just south
of it erupt happily into life every decade or two.

Mt St Helens  is a mere pimple. Krakatoa a wannabe Johny come lately.
Aetna and Pompeii and all the rest don't feature compared. We run a
fair bit of our tourist trade on top of the mountain's 'slopes' (which
nobody can see).

And if it went bang again, it would be nothing compared to what a
nuclear incident would do to us.



       Russell McMahon




2006\01\03@073308 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 00:15:03 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

>...
> Our Mt Taupo...
>
> Mt St Helens  is a mere pimple. Krakatoa a wannabe Johny come lately.
> Aetna and Pompeii and all the rest don't feature compared.

How does it compare with Toba?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\03@075827 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Tue, 03 Jan 2006 03:32:22 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

>...
> I'm no Luddite (despite what it may appear from some of my stances)
> but am sure enough that Nuclear power makes very little sense for us
> in the foreseeable future. Just dam another river and ... :-).

Is it not the case that nuclear power isn't a good match for NZ anyway, because of the low population density?  
You can't build a lot of small nuclear power stations, so you'd end up with one big one and the problem of how
to distribute it over a very wide area.  Hydro-electric, on the other hand, scales easily from a single house
supply up to somthing like the huge thing at Manapouri (an amazing place to visit), which fits NZ's population
distribution well.  Are there power cables across the Cook Strait?

Has any use been made of geothermal energy, by the way?  You seem to have a fair bit of that around, if the
will was there to use it.

> The weather forecast for tomorrow is fine and warm and very very very
> bright ... :-)

The first thing I noticed when I disembarked at Auckland airport in Nov.2000 (my first visit to the Southern
Hemisphere) was that the sunshine was much more blue than I was used to - a much colder, harsher light.  I
don't know if that's because you have less dust in your atmosphere, less air pollution, or less ozone!  The
fact that the Sun goes the other way across the sky caught me out on one occasion, too - something that I knew
would happen, but that nobody ever mentions.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\03@084533 by Russell McMahon

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> Is it not the case that nuclear power isn't a good match for NZ
> anyway, because of the low population density?
> You can't build a lot of small nuclear power stations, so you'd end
> up with one big one and the problem of how
> to distribute it over a very wide area.  Hydro-electric, on the
> other hand, scales easily from a single house
> supply up to somthing like the huge thing at Manapouri (an amazing
> place to visit), which fits NZ's population
> distribution well.

Some merit in that. But our big hydro stations tend to be very big and
somewhat clumped on our big rivers. Waikato (North island) and Clutha
(South island) are biggest. Waikato flows out of the crater of Mt
Taupo :-)

> Are there power cables across the Cook Strait?

Yes. DC. 500,000Vish AFAIR. Balanced either side of ground to help
insulation.
Swing ships compasses nicely.
Flow is usually South to North. We have people. They (mainland :-) )
have hydro :-).

> Has any use been made of geothermal energy, by the way?

Yes. Several locations - some very old. Wairakei is large and old.
Some new ones too. Ngawha?.

> You seem to have a fair bit of that around, if the
> will was there to use it.

There is.
It is.
We are also starting to use wind on a scale that somewhat surprises
me. 2 MW plus units in their many dozens + per farm.

We also use natural gas and also coal to some extent.
Some small plants use gas turbines in containers to serve holiday peak
areas.
Saves on transmission line costs I guess.

{Quote hidden}

All these things.
In the US and Europe at the height of the hottest summer on record I
could stay in the sun all day with no skin protection. In NZ on a good
day you burn in under 15 minutes. All day in full sun here would
literally hospitalise you. Suntan lotion is essential.

> The  fact that the Sun goes the other way across the sky caught me
> out on one occasion, too - something that I knew
> would happen, but that nobody ever mentions.

Bother - never noticed that in Europe and USA. How annoying. It's
still of course East to West but looking "towards the sun" is "towards
the equator" which is 180 degrees to other hemisphere. Fancy.



   RM

2006\01\03@084632 by olin piclist

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Russell McMahon wrote:
> Mt St Helens  is a mere pimple.

I geologic terms, yes, but not in recent human history.  Mt St Helens was a
relatively large eruption on the scale of a few 100 years.  It's impact was
minor only because there was little population in its direct devistation
path.  Imagine the impact if the blast and prevailing winds had aimed at
Seattle instead of eastwards.

> Krakatoa a wannabe Johny come lately.

The 18xx eruption was probably the largest in the last 200 years, although
still small on a scale of 100s of thousands of years.  However the eruption
in 5xx AD may have been the largest in recorded human history.  There is
some evidence that this eruption caused the Sunda Straight and separated
Java and Sumatra which may previously have been a single island.  While the
evidence is not certain, there is a good chance that it was the cause of
nearly a decade of winter weather as recorded by several civilizations all
around the world at the time and captured in tree rings, ice cores, and the
like.

Now consider the various lurking giants that tend to erupt on much longer
time scales with much higher energies.  They are scattered all around the
world, with some in New Zealand as you mentioned.  The Yellowstone Caldera
in Wyoming and the Mammoth Crater in California are two more.  Both show
obvious signs of geothermal activity on the ground.

> And if it went bang again, it would be nothing compared to what a
> nuclear incident would do to us.

I'm not going to enter in the pro/con nuclear discussion, but this statement
was made completely without support.  If all of New Zealand gets wiped out,
I imagine it matters little to the New Zealanders how, only to the rest of
the world what the spillover effects would be.  There are quite a few
volcanic scenarios that would be a lot worse to everyone else than a nuclear
accident.  Think of Chernobyl.  A very nasty industrial accident with long
term consequences to be sure, but small in comparison to various quite
reasonable volcanic scenarios.  Again I'm not arguing pro/con nuclear, just
objecting to unfounded statements.


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2006\01\03@094652 by Howard Winter

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Russell,

On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 02:33:52 +1300, Russell McMahon wrote:

>...
> > The  fact that the Sun goes the other way across the sky caught me
> > out on one occasion, too - something that I knew
> > would happen, but that nobody ever mentions.
>
> Bother - never noticed that in Europe and USA. How annoying. It's
> still of course East to West but looking "towards the sun" is "towards
> the equator" which is 180 degrees to other hemisphere. Fancy.

LOL!  What brought it home to me was one morning when I was using my laptop in a motel room, and the Sun was
low in the sky, shining on the screen.  I partly drew a curtain so it was *just* shading the screen, thinking
the sunshine would move further off the screen as the Sun "moved" - wheras of course it moved back onto the
screen!  I hadn't realised that I was taking it for granted that the shadow would move left-to-right...

"And as the Sun sinks slowly in the East, I realise that my compass has packed up!"  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\03@104004 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Hydro-electric, on the other hand, scales easily from a
>single house supply up to somthing like the huge thing at
>Manapouri (an amazing place to visit),

Ain't it just. Assume you took the trip down the tunnel then ...

>which fits NZ's population distribution well.  Are
>there power cables across the Cook Strait?

Yes there are. They can send power either direction, as required. The cables
themselves carry DC, and then it is rectified/converted to AC at the ends as
required. The cables were installed when the Benmore hydro system was
built - IIRC this is the biggest NZ hydro plant. The Manapouri one was built
primarily to supply the aluminium smelter at Bluff. I was quite surprised
when I first came to the UK to find that aluminium duct tape that I was
using on a site in the UK, was made in NZ.

The other dam that amazes me is the one on the Clutha project. The river
valley is an earthquake fault line, and the dam has a big wedge in the
middle to accommodate any movement of the two sides of the fault line.
www.davidwallphoto.com/searchresults.asp?tx=dams&ts=&c=&Lids=&Gids=&p=1&n=6490
you can see a line down the dam between the spillway, and the pipes going
down to the generator building. Hmm, seems this is now NZ's largest hydro
dam.

>Has any use been made of geothermal energy, by the way?
>You seem to have a fair bit of that around, if the
>will was there to use it.

Yes, if you drive through Taupo (the town on the north side of the lake
mentioned in another thread here) then keep going north, you drive through
some clouds of steam just past the golf course, and the pipes that go under
the road at this point take the steam from a bunch of bores through to a
power station on the shore of the river. There are also some smaller
geothermal power stations around the same area. The outfall from the power
station raises the temperature of the river about 1C, and the warm water
from the power station is also used by a king prawn breeding farm.

>> The weather forecast for tomorrow is fine and warm and
>> very very very bright ... :-)

>The first thing I noticed when I disembarked at Auckland
>airport in Nov.2000 (my first visit to the Southern
>Hemisphere) was that the sunshine was much more blue than
>I was used to - a much colder, harsher light.  I don't know
>if that's because you have less dust in your atmosphere,
>less air pollution, or less ozone!

All the above probably. There is a story, that I cannot verify the truth of,
but goes something like this. When the Queen did a tour of NZ back in 1953
the powers that be decided to film the event in colour, but with no colour
processing facilities in the country, the film was sent to the UK for
processing. The resulting prints were taking a long time to come back, so
enquiries were made, with the excuse that came back being "we cannot get the
colour balance right - the green is too bright, and if we correct that, all
the other colours go way off".

I believe the yachting fraternity also value NZ produced paints and varnish
as the very clear skies have required production of finishes that have very
high UV resistance to fading and cracking.

2006\01\03@105758 by Danny Sauer

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Alan wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Tue, Jan 03 at 09:50:
[...clear skies in NZ...]
> The resulting prints were taking a long time to come back, so
> enquiries were made, with the excuse that came back being "we cannot get the
> colour balance right - the green is too bright, and if we correct that, all
> the other colours go way off".

Is *that* why you folks feel compelled to use the "extended" spelling
of "color"?  Bigger range requires a bigger word? :)

--Danny

2006\01\03@111830 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu]
>Sent: 03 January 2006 15:58
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis
>
>
>Alan wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on
>Tue, Jan 03 at 09:50: [...clear skies in NZ...]
>> The resulting prints were taking a long time to come back, so
>> enquiries were made, with the excuse that came back being "we cannot
>> get the colour balance right - the green is too bright, and if we
>> correct that, all the other colours go way off".
>
>Is *that* why you folks feel compelled to use the "extended"
>spelling of "color"?  Bigger range requires a bigger word? :)


Not at all, it's simply because we can spell it properly ;-)

Regards

Mike

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2006\01\03@112947 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Alan wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Tue, Jan 03
at 09:50:
>[...clear skies in NZ...]
>> The resulting prints were taking a long time to come back, so
>
>Is *that* why you folks feel compelled to use the "extended"
>spelling of "color"?  Bigger range requires a bigger word? :)

<VBG> well, you know ...

At least it is better than the words you get in England where they want you
to spell out "Worcester" for Wister, and "Cholmondley" for Chumley, etc. No
wonder the yanks set up their own spelling ...

But then youse folks have your own idiosyncrasies in spelling ...

2006\01\03@113132 by Danny Sauer

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Michael wrote regarding 'RE: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Tue, Jan 03 at 10:25:
> Not at all, it's simply because we can spell it properly ;-)

Sure you don't mean prouperly? :)

2006\01\03@124312 by James Newtons Massmind

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> At least it is better than the words you get in England where
> they want you to spell out "Worcester" for Wister, and
> "Cholmondley" for Chumley, etc. No wonder the yanks set up
> their own spelling ...

Ok, so how exactly does one pronounce the name of the sauce from Worcester
Shire? Just in case that isn't clear, I'm referring to e.g. Lea & Perrins
"Worcestershire" sauce.

http://www.leaperrins.com

So far, I hear that is pronounced 'Wooster', 'Warkester', 'Worcester',
'Warshtesher' and so on. I'd love to actually hear the real pronunciation of
a word with that many alleged pronunciations.

---
James.


2006\01\03@132428 by Peter

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On Mon, 2 Jan 2006, Danny Sauer wrote:

> Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Mon, Jan 02 at 16:57:
>> On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Russell McMahon wrote:
>>> 4) Any benefits from Nuclear power at this stage would be far far
>>> far outweighed by the potential dangers to the country's economy
>>> from any sort of nuclear accident.
> [...]
>> How about if one of your volcanoes starts to leak a little?
> [...]
>
> So, because one thing that no one can control might cause a problem,
> it'd be alright to introduce more potential problems?  I mean, the gas
> tank in my car could explode given a set of very specific
> circumstances, so there's no good reason for me to replace that worn
> steering mechanism or bother to wear my seatbelt? :)

Let me put it this way: If you lived on an island with about 25 active
volcanoes, your salad would mix itself on the table from the continuous
tremors, your house would be made of volcanic ash mixed with cement, and
your heating would be ensured by tapping a geyser in your back yard,
would you really run around in ash up to your ankles (ash which is
moderately radioactive by the way), in the shadow of the local landmark
(a smoking volcano) and convince everyone that smoking is unhealthy ?

Okay, I am exagerating a little, but imho some people go too far.

Peter

2006\01\03@133750 by olin piclist

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James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> So far, I hear that is pronounced 'Wooster', 'Warkester', 'Worcester',
> 'Warshtesher' and so on. I'd love to actually hear the real
> pronunciation of a word with that many alleged pronunciations.

I don't know what they do accross the pond, but here in Massachusetts we
have a city named "Worcester" pronounced WOOSter with a short oo like
"foot".  A few other town names:

Gloucester  -  GLOSter
Peabody     -  PEEbdy
Woburn      -  WOOburn  (long oo)
Billerica   -  billRICKah
Chelmsford  -  CHEMSfud
Reading     -  REDding


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2006\01\03@134832 by Danny Sauer

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Peter wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Tue, Jan 03 at 12:28:
> Let me put it this way: If you lived on an island with about 25 active
> volcanoes, your salad would mix itself on the table from the continuous
> tremors, your house would be made of volcanic ash mixed with cement, and
> your heating would be ensured by tapping a geyser in your back yard,
> would you really run around in ash up to your ankles (ash which is
> moderately radioactive by the way), in the shadow of the local landmark
> (a smoking volcano) and convince everyone that smoking is unhealthy ?

Man, NZ sucks - I thought it was supposed to be a nice place to
visit/live. :)  And yes, I'd still think that there's no reason to
intentionally make things worse for yourself by smoking - unless the
cool kids are also doing it.  Visit any smog-filled large American
city and you're sure to see a "stop-smoking" billboard somewhere.
Heck, go to southern CA and you'll periodically get the earthquakes to
go with the semi-toxic air.

--Danny, ignoring last night's small earthquake in southern IL :)

2006\01\03@135116 by Danny Sauer

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Olin wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Tue, Jan 03 at 12:43:
> I don't know what they do accross the pond, but here in Massachusetts we
> have a city named "Worcester" pronounced WOOSter with a short oo like
> "foot".  A few other town names:

Curse you, Hooked on Phonics(r)(tm)!  You've failed me once again!

--Danny, the obvious tourist in War Chester

2006\01\03@140234 by Lindy Mayfield

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You also have around there the Thames river, pronounced "thames" and not "tims".  

Just to confuse them, I think. (-;

{Original Message removed}

2006\01\03@141336 by Howard Winter

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James,

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 09:43:07 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> Ok, so how exactly does one pronounce the name of the sauce from Worcester
> Shire? Just in case that isn't clear, I'm referring to e.g. Lea & Perrins
> "Worcestershire" sauce.
>
> http://www.leaperrins.com
>
> So far, I hear that is pronounced 'Wooster', 'Warkester', 'Worcester',
> 'Warshtesher' and so on. I'd love to actually hear the real pronunciation of
> a word with that many alleged pronunciations.

Well Worcester is the town, Worcestershire is the county, and they sound like "Wooster" and "Woostersheer".  
Local dialects might vary it a bit from that, but that's pretty much "standard" pronunciation, and in all
cases the "ce" is dropped.

The "oo" sound isn't very long, as in "Boot", more like "Bullet".

There's also Gloucester and Gloucestershire, which sound like "Gloster" and "Glostersheer", Leicester and
Leicestershire, "Lester", "Lestersheer".

Cirencester, just to be awkward, is pronounced just as it's spelled!

If we ever meet in person (I'll be over there next in a couple of months or so) remind me to say some of these
for you!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\03@142436 by Howard Winter

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On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 21:02:32 +0200, Lindy Mayfield wrote:

>
> You also have around there the Thames river, pronounced "thames" and not "tims".  

Ours is pronounced "tems"...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\03@143202 by James Newtons Massmind

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>
> Well Worcester is the town, Worcestershire is the county, and
> they sound like "Wooster" and "Woostersheer".  
> Local dialects might vary it a bit from that, but that's
> pretty much "standard" pronunciation, and in all cases the
> "ce" is dropped.
>
> The "oo" sound isn't very long, as in "Boot", more like "Bullet".
>
> There's also Gloucester and Gloucestershire, which sound like
> "Gloster" and "Glostersheer", Leicester and Leicestershire,
> "Lester", "Lestersheer".
>
> Cirencester, just to be awkward, is pronounced just as it's spelled!

<GRIN>

> If we ever meet in person (I'll be over there next in a
> couple of months or so) remind me to say some of these for you!  :-)
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Howard Winter

If you make it to the left coast, do stop in.

---
James.


2006\01\03@144451 by olin piclist

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Lindy Mayfield wrote:
> You also have around there the Thames river, pronounced "thames" and
> not "tims".

Not around *here*, that's in Connecticut (konNETtiket) and what do they know
down there anyway!?


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2006\01\03@150507 by Howard Winter

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James,

On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:32:00 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

>...
> If you make it to the left coast, do stop in.

Oh I will be - I have friends half an hour or so up the coast from you (San Juan Capistrano) and the plan is
to stay with them for a couple of weeks.

Perhaps we can meet under the left-hand Jacob's Ladder outside the Escondido branch of Fry's - I'll wear a
blue carnation :-)  

The recognition code will be:
"It's cold on the embankment tonight"  
"Bitter!"  
"Thanks, I don't mind if I do!"  

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\03@161715 by James Newtons Massmind

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> Oh I will be - I have friends half an hour or so up the coast
> from you (San Juan Capistrano) and the plan is to stay with
> them for a couple of weeks.

Let me know the dates and I'll introduce you around to the locals.

And anyone from the PICList who comes to SoCal should let me know. I do love
to chat with people over a coffee at the local bookstore or whatever. If you
are staying for a while, and I can get the time off, I'm happy for the
excuse fo show people around. Accommodations can be arranged given notice,
subject to availability. Russell will tell you that we have a good friend
who runs a good un-official B&B just up the street.

> Perhaps we can meet under the left-hand Jacob's Ladder
> outside the Escondido branch of Fry's - I'll wear a blue
> carnation :-)  

San Marcos branch. Escondido doesn't have one yet, but SM is just one town
over.

> The recognition code will be:
> "It's cold on the embankment tonight"  
> "Bitter!"  
> "Thanks, I don't mind if I do!"  

Or just wear your kilt... I'd recognize your face anywhere.
X-Face:
)3y`+|.F*26ycMo<4"}$`N{cL{uQZLeiwCFn6$z6LS@Jd@u[jR+';#?l?*zrAxp\A7]r']{

CAJ/^sVFXsYiu"s82m#b[9p+[1CKs'M[>e]W0n"nE!7z#p)]z_TRU!9w*v}cq:Mgg3k~~*RbAHHV
9%

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v_
Shh<IRZ]vuyaMD;E$4i/mNl-(F1?b0d;uAElrn

http://www.dairiki.org/xface/xface.php

> Cheers,
>
>
> Howard Winter
> St.Albans, England
>
>
> -

2006\01\03@162723 by Dave Tweed

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olin_piclist@embedinc.com (Olin Lathrop) wrote:
> James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> > So far, I hear that is pronounced 'Wooster', 'Warkester', 'Worcester',
> > 'Warshtesher' and so on. I'd love to actually hear the real
> > pronunciation of a word with that many alleged pronunciations.
>
> I don't know what they do accross the pond, but here in Massachusetts we
> have a city named "Worcester" pronounced WOOSter with a short oo like
> "foot".  A few other town names:
>
> Gloucester  -  GLOSter
> Peabody     -  PEEbdy
> Woburn      -  WOOburn  (long oo)
> Billerica   -  billRICKah
> Chelmsford  -  CHEMSfud
> Reading     -  REDding

Not to mention:

 Haverhill    - HAVrill  (long a, like "Dave")
 Provincetown - PEEtown  :-)

-- Dave Tweed

2006\01\03@170321 by Jinx

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> > Has any use been made of geothermal energy, by the way?

There are the big plants like Wairakei

http://www.ew.govt.nz/enviroinfo/geothermal/energy.htm

(a flat I moved into in the early 70s had a 7' x 5' poster of
the Wairaki plant - almost like being there. Apart from the
smell of course. Our flat smelled much worse)

And on a smaller scale residents (and motels) in Rotorua just
help themselves to the hot water. Until the council says "Oi, you
residents, stop that"

http://www.nz.com/new-zealand/tourism/rotorua/Whakarewarewa.aspx

Every now and then the ground gets its own back, and
schists on the council

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0101/S00097.htm

Note photo of geologist confirming that, yes, that's a rock alright

Or somebody's backyard turns from lawn to toxic, fuming hole or
boiling mud pool

2006\01\03@172257 by Jinx

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> Mt St Helens

http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/volcanocams/msh/  (volcanocam)

was a relatively large eruption.......Imagine the impact if the
> blast and prevailing winds had aimed at Seattle instead of
> eastwards

You may yet get to see that one day with Mt Rainier

> There are quite a few volcanic scenarios that would be a lot
> worse to everyone else than a nuclear accident.  Think of
> Chernobyl.  A very nasty industrial accident with long term
> consequences to be sure, but small in comparison to various
> quite reasonable volcanic scenarios

I'd compare a large volcanic event to nucular war rather than an
industrial "accident" (Chernobyl wasn't deliberate but it was no
accident). The fall-out and contamination from Chernobyl is nasty
but localised. Most places, especially those south of the equatorial
wind shift, can avoid the repercussions from Chernobyl and other
pollution. A really big volcano pumping many cubic miles of dust
into everybody's atmosphere is not so inescapable. Nucular war
would have the radiation hazard, but also generate large amounts
of air pollution from fires etc


2006\01\03@172658 by Jinx

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> > Not at all, it's simply because we can spell it properly ;-)
>
> Sure you don't mean prouperly? :)

Sure you don't mean "Saer" ?

2006\01\03@231718 by Russell McMahon

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> Is *that* why you folks feel compelled to use the "extended"
> spelling
> of "color"?  Bigger range requires a bigger word? :)

More UV in our coloUvr.


       RV

(which in fact is how we often sign ourselves here).


2006\01\03@231721 by Russell McMahon

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> ... I'm referring to e.g. Lea & Perrins "Worcestershire" sauce.


There IS no other kind.
Let him who otherwise declares be anathema.


       RV

2006\01\04@040349 by Russell McMahon

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>Russell will tell you that we have a good friend
> who runs a good un-official B&B just up the street.

We spent several days there.
Such a travesty.
Such an injustice!
Good !!!!?
Nay sir. Superb! Beyond compare. Hospitality to put one to shame. Plus
chauffeur service. And a packed lunch and assorted snacks for the trip
ahead, sneaked into the car unseen before we left, and discovered with
glee as we travelled.

I can't guarantee you'll get any of the latter of course :-) - but
Devora did us proud. And, she's a marine to boot :-)
( http://others.servebeer.com/temp/derv.jpg )
( http://others.servebeer.com/temp/dehat.jpg )


           RM




2006\01\04@040351 by Russell McMahon

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>> "foot".  A few other town names:

Oh, OK then:

How written:          How said:

Kawerau               cah were ow
Kawerau               cah worr uh
Paraparaumu        para puh ram
Papatoetoe           pappa toey
Bach                    Crib     :-)
Otahuhu               Oh tar hoo
Wanganui            Fwong ar nooey / ...
Taupo                 Nobody can really agree (Tow poh / Too poe /
... )
Piwakawaka        Fantail :-)
Taranaki             Mt Egmont

...





       RM

2006\01\04@042600 by Alan B. Pearce

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>> ... I'm referring to e.g. Lea & Perrins "Worcestershire" sauce.
>
>There IS no other kind.
>Let him who otherwise declares be anathema.

Apart from Watties Steak Sauce, what you cannot get over here ...

2006\01\04@043024 by Jinx

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> How written:          How said:

You forgot

Kotanga         Car Aerial

2006\01\04@043731 by Jinx

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> Apart from Watties Steak Sauce, what you cannot get over here ...

If your tum gets "home"-sick when you next come back to
NZ, there are a few places like this opening up

http://www.coolbritannia.co.nz/

Jonesing for Walkers Marmite Crisps ? They'll sort you out

2006\01\04@084800 by Russell McMahon

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> Oh I will be - I have friends half an hour or so up the coast from
> you (San Juan Capistrano) and the plan

You ***MUST*** got to the San Juan Capistrano Mission if you haven't
been already. And I assume that if you have been already then you'll
go again :-). The church that backs onto the mission is worth a quick
look too.

       http://russellmc.fotki.com/atw/san_juan_capistrano/

Full size pictures (which you only see if you click the "get original
uploaded photo" link) are about 1 MB.
If you were going to look at only one at full size I'd recommend

       600 x 600
http://russellmc.fotki.com/atw/san_juan_capistrano/pict3326_capistrano.html

      Full size 1920 x 2560 1.1 MB
       http://images12.fotki.com/v252/fileaiyX/b7332/7/760471/3048729/PICT3326Capistrano.jpg



       RM


2006\01\04@123431 by James Newtons Massmind

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>
> >Russell will tell you that we have a good friend  who runs a good
> >un-official B&B just up the street.
>
> We spent several days there.
> Such a travesty.
> Such an injustice!
> Good !!!!?
> Nay sir. Superb! Beyond compare. Hospitality to put one to
> shame. Plus chauffeur service. And a packed lunch and
> assorted snacks for the trip ahead, sneaked into the car
> unseen before we left, and discovered with glee as we travelled.
>
> I can't guarantee you'll get any of the latter of course :-)
> - but Devora did us proud. And, she's a marine to boot :-) (
> http://others.servebeer.com/temp/derv.jpg ) (
> http://others.servebeer.com/temp/dehat.jpg )
>

Actually, a navy corpsman attached to a Marine unit. Now ex-navy working at
a karate dojo. Quite a lady...

And she is single, just in case you happen to be a nice, single, Jewish
doctor...

---
James.


2006\01\04@125008 by Danny Sauer

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Jinx wrote regarding 'Re: [OT][WOT] Kwestion for the Kiwis' on Tue, Jan 03 at 16:29:
> > > Not at all, it's simply because we can spell it properly ;-)
> >
> > Sure you don't mean prouperly? :)
>
> Sure you don't mean "Saer" ?

I get mail and phone calls for Danny Saer all the time - apparently
from people who've never heard of that fermented salted cabbage topping
used in thinks like Reuben sandwiches, hot dogs, and various casseroles.

Or were you referring to "Sure" as opposed to my last name? :)

--Danny

2006\01\04@132333 by Howard Winter

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On Wed, 4 Jan 2006 09:34:27 -0800, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

>...
> And she is single, just in case you happen to be a nice, single, Jewish doctor...

Strike Four!  :-)

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\01\04@162116 by Josh Koffman

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On 1/4/06, James Newtons Massmind <jamesnewtonspamKILLspammassmind.org> wrote:
> And she is single, just in case you happen to be a nice, single, Jewish
> doctor...

Oh to be a doctor and living in California...

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2006\01\04@165814 by Jinx

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> Or were you referring to "Sure" as opposed to my last name? :)

Aw, it doesn't have to be your last name - you could pick another
any time you want ;-)


2006\01\04@224425 by Russell McMahon

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>> And she is single, just in case you happen to be a nice, single,

unmarried

> Jewish doctor...

:-)


       RM

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