Post by thread:[OT]: What makes an engineer

Hi All, I've been to University & College in the UK (actually I've been to 2 Universitys & 6 Colleges but thats another story). What I found was that College prepared you for a job & University prepared you for research or academia. Hence the University types not knowing their arses from their elbows when first unleashed on the world. I personally preferred the College approach as any University Science degree invariably degenerates into the most abstract mathematics imaginable. I passed 2nd year maths at the fourth attempt which tells you how I feel about math ! Cheers, Wilson Logan. http://www.wilsonlogan.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

part 1 2153 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I thought the math was quite good, but then again I pissed it. Having said that, you are correct in it being abstract and I think it would have been better to have been exposed to some more applied material; although I know about z transforms, laplace fourier and avg. > 90% in it, ask me to apply it to some problem and I would be scratching my head for a while, believe me. I agree about your other points, too. I had a conversation with a bloke in the lab, last week, who was doing his final year project. He was moaning that his board only worked now and again. I asked him if he had checked the joints, as one might be dry. He: "I know those joints are good - I soldered them myself" Me : "Did you check them, though?" He : "I don't need to....they have been soldered" End of conversation. University rarely teaches you the practical side and it shows. Dan (Embedded Intellicorp001 <spam_OUTintellicorp001TakeThisOuTMCH10.SBS.DE>TakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>> image moved 12/04/2001 08:26 to file: pic04836.pcx) Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <.....PICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> To: .....PICLISTKILLspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [OT]: What makes an engineer Security Level:? Internal Hi All, I've been to University & College in the UK (actually I've been to 2 Universitys & 6 Colleges but thats another story). What I found was that College prepared you for a job & University prepared you for research or academia. Hence the University types not knowing their arses from their elbows when first unleashed on the world. I personally preferred the College approach as any University Science degree invariably degenerates into the most abstract mathematics imaginable. I passed 2nd year maths at the fourth attempt which tells you how I feel about math ! Cheers, Wilson Logan. http://www.wilsonlogan.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads part 2 165 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode) part 3 144 bytes -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> He: "I know those joints are good - I soldered them myself" > Me : "Did you check them, though?" > He : "I don't need to....they have been soldered" > > End of conversation. > > University rarely teaches you the practical side and it shows. > > Dan You worry about solder joints. I did my BSc (Chem/Chem Eng) at a Tech Institute and was perfectly happy as a hands-on tech in a resin lab. Our bosses were varsity types who were an absolute menace in the lab. It was stocked with ethers, volatile monomers, acids, and skin-penetrating isocyanates. The bosses would often leave the office for "let's have a go at that session". Apart from not knowing one end of a test-tube from the other, the instruction "cook a batch of low viscosity polyurethane" was somehow heard by them as "make a 6 inch Superball". And if I had a dollar for every time I had to wander around turning off all the heating mantles after their "fun day in the lab"......... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> > University rarely teaches you the practical side and it shows. > > > Apart from not knowing one end of a test-tube from the > other, Or which end of a Soldering Iron to get hold of. I kid you not. I spent days fighting off the Heath & Safety Gestapo because a 3rd year student burnt his hand grabbing the hot end of a Soldering Iron. Yes he had designed, built and tested circuits - using a computer. That last bit of information I failed to acquire before the incident, He had never actually built a circuit using real components, but he had seen it done once. The University where this student came from received a forthright diatribe expressing my opinions regarding their teaching methods. They did include some practical after that, then we devised a circuit specification for students to design and build which we knew worked perfectly on the computer but would never work on the breadboard without tweaking. For some reason the supply of students gaining industrial experience seemed to dry up after 2 years. Chris Carr -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

part 1 3735 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Cheers! I used to be a field techie, crawling around in stinking feed mills installing and fixing god-knows-what :-) Dan (Embedded Gareth Bennett <garethbspam_OUTES.CO.NZ>spam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> image moved 13/04/2001 15:49 to file: pic02695.pcx) Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> Sent by: pic microcontroller discussion list <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> To: RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU cc: Subject: Re: [OT]: What makes an engineer Security Level:? Internal The BEST engineers come from FIELD Technicians! :) ____________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________ Gareth Bennett spamBeGonegarethbspamBeGonees.co.nz Systems LMR Otago/Southland Region New Zealand {Original Message removed} part 2 165 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode) part 3 144 bytes -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Perhaps my two cents worth of inexperience may help a student... When I got out of the service in '65, my first job was with Western Union in Boston. They assigned me to a bench to modify some old (EVERYTHING in WU was old, furniture from 20's and 30's, ancient tube equipment, etc.) tube device I forget the function of. I had almost no soldering experience. They had these huge American Beauty soldering irons with hot dog size barrels and pencil size tips. The wiring ranged from 22 to 10 gauge stranded and conditions were VERY jammed and crowded in the box. I had placed my iron in it's tip cradle and was looking in the box and trying to hold a 10 gauge piece, with a mind of it's own, in a very tight spot. Now the American Beauties were very old and had the ancient heavy cloth covered cord plugged into a strip on the back of the bench. The cord had slipped the iron back a little. While looking in the box I reached for the iron and grabbed the barrel full grip, all fingers and palm firmly wrapped. You didn't hold these irons like a pencil, you held them like a baseball bat. The Beatles have a song titled "A Minute is a Very Long Time". It's very clever and lasts exactly one minute. Let me talk to the students for a couple of hours explaining EXACTLY how long 3/4 of a second reaction time is... I was lucky. There was lots of white skin and some very bad, almost crippling blisters, but no third degree. For an hour or two after, everyone passing through the shop wanted to know what that weird smell was. Hope this helps someone, sigh... Chris Cox Chris Carr wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > > University rarely teaches you the practical side and it shows. > > > > > Apart from not knowing one end of a test-tube from the > > other, > > Or which end of a Soldering Iron to get hold of. I kid you not. > I spent days fighting off the Heath & Safety Gestapo because a > 3rd year student burnt his hand grabbing the hot end of a Soldering Iron. > > Yes he had designed, built and tested circuits - using a computer. That last > bit of information I failed to acquire before the incident, He had never > actually built a circuit using real components, but he had seen it done > once. > > The University where this student came from received a forthright diatribe > expressing my opinions regarding their teaching methods. They did include > some practical after that, then we devised a circuit specification for > students to design and build which we knew worked perfectly on the computer > but would never work on the breadboard without tweaking. > > For some reason the supply of students gaining industrial experience seemed > to dry up after 2 years. > > Chris Carr > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

In message <TakeThisOuT3AD7DE4D.63AD1FF0EraseMEspam_OUTbellsouth.net>, Chris Cox <RemoveMEcvhcoxTakeThisOuTBELLSOUTH.NET> writes > When I got out of the service in '65, my first job was with Western >Union in Boston. They assigned me to a bench to modify some old >(EVERYTHING in WU was old, furniture from 20's and 30's, ancient tube >equipment, etc.) tube device I forget the function of. I had almost no >soldering experience. They had these huge American Beauty soldering >irons with hot dog size barrels and pencil size tips. The wiring ranged >from 22 to 10 gauge stranded and conditions were VERY jammed and crowded >in the box. I had placed my iron in it's tip cradle and was looking in >the box and trying to hold a 10 gauge piece, with a mind of it's own, in >a very tight spot. Now the American Beauties were very old and had the >ancient heavy cloth covered cord plugged into a strip on the back of the >bench. The cord had slipped the iron back a little. While looking in the >box I reached for the iron and grabbed the barrel full grip, all fingers >and palm firmly wrapped. You didn't hold these irons like a pencil, you >held them like a baseball bat. It's a normal reaction to try and catch something if you drop it, after a few years you lose this reaction when you drop a soldering iron :-). -- Nigel. /--------------------------------------------------------------\ | Nigel Goodwin | Internet : nigelgEraseME.....lpilsley.co.uk | | Lower Pilsley | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.co.uk | | Chesterfield | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit | | England | Ju Jitsu | \--------------------------------------------------------------/ -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

It's a normal reaction to try and catch something if you drop it, after a few years you lose this reaction when you drop a soldering iron :-). I've heard that suggested as a test for the level of practical experience level of interview candidates - knock a soldering iron off the table... OTOH, cooks develop similar non-reflexes. None of knives, cleavers, or hot things from the pan are "to be caught." In general: dodge ! OTTH, have you ever watched or seen the work of a full-time professional rework technician (even those whom apparently lack any ambition toward being an engineer)? Amazing stuff... You can also have a lot of fun if you take some (say) networking software experts (say, BGP, Novell, and IP Multicast authors) and throw them in a room with some actual routers, DSUs, and CABLES. I had a wonderful time watching a non-working T1-connection get debugged at half-a-dozen different levels at a cisco Networkers meeting a few years back... BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

{Quote hidden}> -----Original Message----- > From: pic microcontroller discussion list > [RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Nigel Goodwin > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 02:23 > To: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT]: What makes an engineer > > > In message <RemoveME3AD7DE4D.63AD1FF0TakeThisOuTspambellsouth.net>, Chris Cox > <EraseMEcvhcoxspamspamBeGoneBELLSOUTH.NET> writes > > When I got out of the service in '65, my first job was with Western > >Union in Boston. They assigned me to a bench to modify some old > >(EVERYTHING in WU was old, furniture from 20's and 30's, ancient tube > >equipment, etc.) tube device I forget the function of. I had almost no > >soldering experience. They had these huge American Beauty soldering > >irons with hot dog size barrels and pencil size tips. The wiring ranged > >from 22 to 10 gauge stranded and conditions were VERY jammed and crowded > >in the box. I had placed my iron in it's tip cradle and was looking in > >the box and trying to hold a 10 gauge piece, with a mind of it's own, in > >a very tight spot. Now the American Beauties were very old and had the > >ancient heavy cloth covered cord plugged into a strip on the back of the > >bench. The cord had slipped the iron back a little. While looking in the > >box I reached for the iron and grabbed the barrel full grip, all fingers > >and palm firmly wrapped. You didn't hold these irons like a pencil, you > >held them like a baseball bat. > > It's a normal reaction to try and catch something if you drop it, after > a few years you lose this reaction when you drop a soldering iron :-). I agree with that one! Now I just watch WHERE it falls, unfortunately I've started doing that with other stuff... :( TTYL -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Back in the 80'es I tutored at the Technical University of Copenhagen. We started out on punched hole cards. Nobody had experience from home. Then the Nascom I, the Commodore VIC etc arrived. People began programming at home. What great times - interest and skills right from the beginning. Then RAM passed the 4K barrier and games became possible. From one semester to the next - no skills at all. But all very comfortable with the screen and the keyboard. I had a guy type in a 200 lines program at the login prompt. Vigorously ignoring all the error messages and the alternating user name/password/ new login screen. He was so pissed off when it would not run afterwards. I guess now they do COM and CORBA and ODBC and Java but have no clue what goes on in the belly of the beast. I don't think the definition of Engineer lasts for more than a year or so. But I do recognize the personality. Last week I was back at TUD. A guy in too short brown pants is standing next to his car, ready to perform the ritual with the Keyfob. My car was standing next to his, and I was coming down the stairs from the library. I told my companion (also an engineer) to pay attention - and at the exactly right time I pressed my keyfob so that my car opened at the same time. Do I really need to tell the rest of the story ?? I DID notice that the girls had become prettier. When I studied there, the theory was that the girls came from the farms, way out on the west coast of Denmark, where the farms are very far apart. A girl getting into her mature age, ready to marry, would wear her best clothes and go stand by the road, waiting for her prince. When the color had rained out of the third set of clothes she would join TUD. Kent -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

As part of my formative years, I learned the soldering iron orientation the hard way. I was working my way through school as a pinball machine repairman (mostly the old electro-mechancials but a few with 6800 uP in them). Anyway, the playfield is raised like the hood of a car, I'm on a stool half-way into the machine following wiring diagrams through the timing motor contacts while my pointy haired boss is yammering away in my ear. I found the loose wire, reached up for the iron and ....sssssssssss. I dropped the iron, he looked at me and said maybe he should leave me alone now. (2 minutes earlier would have been my preference). But y'know, the lesson stuck. I will NEVER forget which end of a soldering iron to grab. And I'm sure all of that hands on work has helped me over the years. Connectors should have cable orientations marked (someone will try to reverse them), you should be able to dissassemble without removing everything, beware of mechanical contacts, for they will bite your reliability. Don't trust soldering, especially on a prototype. A good silkscreen will save 10x the time to put the details on it. (label test points, voltages) -- Steve Nordhauser Director of New Product Development Imaging Systems IEM Corp. 60 Fourth Ave. Albany, NY 12202-1924 digitalSTOPspamspam_OUTnycap.rr.com http://www.iem.net Phone: (518) 449-5504x21 Fax: (518) 449-5567 {Quote hidden}> > Subject: Re: [OT]: What makes an engineer > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:26:27 +0100 > From: Chris Carr <spamBeGonenyedSTOPspamEraseMEBTINTERNET.COM> > > > > University rarely teaches you the practical side and it shows. > > > > > Apart from not knowing one end of a test-tube from the > > other, > > Or which end of a Soldering Iron to get hold of. I kid you not. > I spent days fighting off the Heath & Safety Gestapo because a > 3rd year student burnt his hand grabbing the hot end of a Soldering Iron. > > Yes he had designed, built and tested circuits - using a computer. That last > bit of information I failed to acquire before the incident, He had never > actually built a circuit using real components, but he had seen it done > once. > > The University where this student came from received a forthright diatribe > expressing my opinions regarding their teaching methods. They did include > some practical after that, then we devised a circuit specification for > students to design and build which we knew worked perfectly on the computer > but would never work on the breadboard without tweaking. > > For some reason the supply of students gaining industrial experience seemed > to dry up after 2 years. > > Chris Carr > > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

Reading the posts on catching soldering irons made me wonder how many people have been at this point: Soldering two things with short leads together and holding it with your fingers while doing so. You grit your teeth and wonder at that moment if your pain threshold is going to give before the solder cools and set. And with that burned finger in your mouth you stand back and watch your handy work, satisfied and promising yourself next time you will use a pair of pliers. Yet, a few weeks down the line you do the same thing. Makes me think of certain sexual preferences some people have involving leather and whips.......... Quentin -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList EraseMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

Tony Nixon wrote: >Nigel Goodwin wrote: > >> It's a normal reaction to try and catch something if you drop it, after >> a few years you lose this reaction when you drop a soldering iron :-). > > >I was siting down soldering in bare feet one day (never again) and >dropped a soldering iron. The barrel landed right between my toes. It's >one trick I won't try again. Didn't take my cat very long to learn where not to sit. Won't even come into the room when I'm at the workbench. Who says you can't train cats. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Quentin wrote: > Reading the posts on catching soldering irons made me wonder how many > people have been at this point: > Soldering two things with short leads together and holding it with your > fingers while doing so. You grit your teeth and wonder at that moment if > your pain threshold is going to give before the solder cools and set. > > And with that burned finger in your mouth you stand back and watch your > handy work, satisfied and promising yourself next time you will use a > pair of pliers. Yet, a few weeks down the line you do the same thing. The problem with the pliers is that you need a whole hand to hold them, whereas you can balance five or six components in one hand to solder a junction (if you can stand the pain :-). Unfortunately it generally takes the other whole hand to hold the soldering iron, and using the little finger on that side to manipulate the solder implies muscle control that a yogi would envy! I used to regularly pick up the iron by the wrong end, soldering circuit on my bedroom floor as a young teenager (didn't have a bench) but I gave that up when PCBs became popular. Nowadays I just get high on the smoke from the flux... John. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

{Quote hidden}> -----Original Message----- > From: John Hallam [SMTP:.....johnspam_OUTDAI.ED.AC.UK] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 1:15 PM > To: TakeThisOuTPICLIST.....TakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [OT]: What makes an engineer > > On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Quentin wrote: > > > Reading the posts on catching soldering irons made me wonder how many > > people have been at this point: > > Soldering two things with short leads together and holding it with your > > fingers while doing so. You grit your teeth and wonder at that moment if > > your pain threshold is going to give before the solder cools and set. > > > > And with that burned finger in your mouth you stand back and watch your > > handy work, satisfied and promising yourself next time you will use a > > pair of pliers. Yet, a few weeks down the line you do the same thing. > > The problem with the pliers is that you need a whole hand to hold > them, whereas you can balance five or six components in one hand to solder > a junction (if you can stand the pain :-). Unfortunately it generally > takes the other whole hand to hold the soldering iron, and using the > little finger on that side to manipulate the solder implies muscle control > that a yogi would envy! > That's what teeth are for! :o) Nice tasty bit of lead never did anyone harm. Much. > I used to regularly pick up the iron by the wrong end, soldering > circuit on my bedroom floor as a young teenager (didn't have a bench) but > I gave that up when PCBs became popular. Nowadays I just get high on the > smoke from the flux... > > John. > I have caught a falling soldering iron several itmes, the wonrg way. It's certainly a habbit you learn to kick pretty quickly, although back at home, burns on the hand were far prefereable to my parents seeing burn marks on the carpet! This sounds a bit like a thread on a car maintenance group on usenet I subscribe to: What tools are in your toolbox? Popular answers are: "Hammers, both metric and imperial" "Special torque limiting screwdrivers, where the handle turns but the shaft dosen't" "The wrong type of screwdriver (always loads of crosspoints if you want a flat bladed driver!)" "Semi-working multimeter, keeps you guessing" "ratchetless ratchet, and I don't mean one of those cool modern ones" etc...etc... -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Remindes me of the time I was doing some very finicky mod's to an Alinco radio. I used the soldering iron and some tweezers to remove a surface mount resistor, put down the soldering iron and carefully placed the resistor in a plastic baggy. I then noticed an odd smell. Unpleasant, like burning nylon. I had put the soldering iron down on my knee, instead of into the holder....... Burnt nylon right on my leg. Brand new rock climbing pants. At least now I won't worry about ripping them. Rob -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.