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PICList Thread
'[OT]: Pressure cooker burst disk ?'
2006\11\22@174326 by Peter P.

picon face
I know that there is a wide variety of tinkerers on this list. Did any of them
find out at what temperature the burst disks in pressure cookers are designed to
melt, and share this ?

thanks,
Peter

2006\11\22@181307 by Marc Nicholas

picon face
I can tell you itd be > 131F :)

-marc

On 11/22/06, Peter P. <spam_OUTplpeter2006TakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com> wrote:
> I know that there is a wide variety of tinkerers on this list. Did any of
> them
> find out at what temperature the burst disks in pressure cookers are
> designed to
> melt, and share this ?
>
> thanks,
> Peter
>
> -

2006\11\23@043817 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu [piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu]
>Sent: 22 November 2006 22:43
>To: .....piclistKILLspamspam.....mit.edu
>Subject: [OT]: Pressure cooker burst disk ?
>
>
>I know that there is a wide variety of tinkerers on this list.
>Did any of them find out at what temperature the burst disks
>in pressure cookers are designed to melt, and share this ?
>

I thought that burst disks were designed to rupture at a specific pressure rather than temperature?

Regards

Mike

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2006\11\23@053710 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I thought that burst disks were designed to rupture at
>a specific pressure rather than temperature?

I understood the ones in pressure cookers were designed to melt at a
temperature slightly higher than would be encountered with water boiling,
and suitably exhausting excess pressure through the safety valve. The plug
was made with a low melting point alloy. The implication was that if the
cooker boiled dry, or the safety valve was locked down then the temperature
would increase to a point where the alloy would melt and blow out.

2006\11\23@112414 by Peter P.

picon face
Alan B. Pearce <A.B.Pearce <at> rl.ac.uk> writes:

> >I thought that burst disks were designed to rupture at
> >a specific pressure rather than temperature?
>
> I understood the ones in pressure cookers were designed to melt at a
> temperature slightly higher than would be encountered with water boiling,
> and suitably exhausting excess pressure through the safety valve. The plug
> was made with a low melting point alloy. The implication was that if the
> cooker boiled dry, or the safety valve was locked down then the temperature
> would increase to a point where the alloy would melt and blow out.

Exactly, but the temperature gives pressure if there is water in the pot.
Without water temperature alone will have to be used since the pressure buildup
will not be anywhere near what water would cause at that temperature.

So another way to ask this question would be: What pressure does a pressure
cooking pot work at normally (assuming that the burst disk is set to give at
that pressure times a safety factor). Thus knowing the burst disk data should
indicate the rated maximum pressure of one particular pressure cooking pot ...
which is what I am trying to find out.

Of course the 'default' way to find out is to put a spare disk (for *THAT* exact
pot) on an electric heater together with a thermocouple and find out. Although
this method would probably read high (I assume that in the initial application
the disk becomes soft and is blown out after that, before it really melts) even
if the 'stirring' method is used to determine the moment of liquefaction.

>From my limited experience the normal pressure-regulating valve (weighted) opens
at about 2bar (=120 degC steam) so I assume that the burst disk will 'go'
slightly higher than that.

This thread is not unrelated to the questions about how to build a solar furnace
powered motor ;-)

thanks,
Peter




2006\11\23@135727 by Denny Esterline

picon face
> So another way to ask this question would be: What pressure does a pressure
> cooking pot work at normally (assuming that the burst disk is set to give at
> that pressure times a safety factor).

The one we used to have for canning had three settings, 5, 10 and 15 PSI.

-Denny


2006\11\23@150615 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Denny Esterline wrote:
>> So another way to ask this question would be: What pressure does a pressure
>> cooking pot work at normally (assuming that the burst disk is set to give at
>> that pressure times a safety factor).
>>    
>
> The one we used to have for canning had three settings, 5, 10 and 15 PSI.
>
> -Denny
>
>
>  
Your PC has the wrong date, Denny...

2006\11\23@155057 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Our 23 qt Pressure cooker has a gauge that sits at 15 pounds during normal
cooking. The rocker weight is pretty lively at 18 pounds.  No info on the
safety vent...

I am probably the only guy around that is hoping for a couple more pressure
cookers for Christmas...

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Rigby-Jones" <EraseMEMichael.Rigby-Jonesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbookham.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistspamspam_OUTmit.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 4:38 AM
Subject: RE: [OT]: Pressure cooker burst disk ?


>
>
>>{Original Message removed}

2006\11\23@183432 by Peter P.

picon face
Denny Esterline <firmware <at> tds.net> writes:

> > So another way to ask this question would be: What pressure does a pressure
> > cooking pot work at normally (assuming that the burst disk is set to give at
> > that pressure times a safety factor).
>
> The one we used to have for canning had three settings, 5, 10 and 15 PSI.

Wow, a blast from the past (6 years ago). Anyway, thanks for the info but it
seems to be very low to me and seems to be similar to what I experienced. The
item I have in mind had a 1oz weight (roughly) pushing on a 3mm diameter
cap/hole. This is about 0.4 bar (~6psi).

So it's in the ballpark, +1bar +/-50% imho. 15psi is exactly 120 deg C as I was
saying before. Anyway the weight on the pot I have in mind used to ride very
high ('stuck' to the upper stop in fact).

Peter


2006\11\23@191533 by Peter P.

picon face
John Ferrell <johnferrell <at> earthlink.net> writes:

> Our 23 qt Pressure cooker has a gauge that sits at 15 pounds during normal
> cooking. The rocker weight is pretty lively at 18 pounds.  No info on the
> safety vent...

Ok, thanks for that. From what I know until now the burst disk is probably set
to go at 130-140 deg C, for a safety factor of at least 2x (pressure is 45psi
abs = +2bar at 135 deg C).

So I can say that an ordinary pressure cooker could be used to drive a
'victorian' steam engine (a small one). Now we have a kettle. I happen to know
that such a cooker whistles fine after about 30 minutes on a 2kW electrical
heater plate, venting steam at high speed through 3 2mm orifices. That would be
2m^2 of sun at 100% absorbance (impossible to realise). More realistically with
0.8 mirrors and 0.8 absorbance about 3.2m^2 of mirror (a 2 meter/6 foot dish).

Anyway 2kW will boil only slightly less than 1 gram of water per second. That is
not a lot to work with. Maybe it will drive a small impulse turbine and generate
about 10-20 Watts or so. That is about 0.5-1% efficiency ! Yes, steam is
painfully inefficient at low pressures. Sorry about that. Anyway ~1 gram/second
mass flow of steam at 300m/sec (speed of sound in air, wrong for steam but I
have to start somewhere, assuming a de Laval nozzle that outputs at Vs) is about
45 Watts in the jet (less nozzle loss) ? (which corresponds to a mind-boggling
2% efficiency heat in to jet power out).

I have experience with such single stage turbines, connected directly to a
generator, air driven (due to materials limitation - plastic formed nozzle). A 2
inch turbine will produce said 10 Watts at about 30,000 rpm (running very
inefficiently, at about 20% calculated very roughly - optimum speed for a de
Laval nozzle and 300m/sec ejection speed is slightly less than 60,000 rpm - on
something like 0.5l/sec of air at 2.2 bars with a 1.5 mm nozzle (the narrow
part) - interestingly by running a lower pressure efficiency is higher).

A simple turbine made from soft steel sheet like I used cannot be taken much
beyond 30,000 rpm as it starts to bend out under its own weight. The high rpm is
not a real problem as there is a variety of small motors that will spin that
fast and can be used as generators here. E.g. up to 60,000 rpm it is relatively
easy to find suitable motors (e.g. old Dremel, model aircraft/rc motor, battery
operated vacuum cleaner etc).

> I am probably the only guy around that is hoping for a couple more pressure
> cookers for Christmas...

Does it connect to a distillation column ? ;-)

Peter


2006\11\23@231258 by John Ferrell

face picon face
A lot of things to consider here...
  A lot of energy in the kitchen application is radiated. A fiberglass
jacket would save a lot of energy loss.

 A six quart pressure cooker filled to 4 quarts takes about 10 minutes on
"high"  to come up to pressure, it takes half power to maintain pressure
with a minimal "hiss".

15 pounds of pressure may not seem like much but when it is superheated
water a sudden breach releases a lot of energy. A smaller pressure vesell
would minimize the risk.

I cannot recommend a pressure cooker for anything other than its intended
use.
It excels as a cooking tool.

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2006\11\24@035156 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I cannot recommend a pressure cooker for anything other than
>its intended use.
>It excels as a cooking tool.

Amen to that. I remember many meals cooked in the one my parents had.

2006\11\24@052834 by Peter P.

picon face
John Ferrell <johnferrell <at> earthlink.net> writes:

> A lot of things to consider here...
> A lot of energy in the kitchen application is radiated. A fiberglass
> jacket would save a lot of energy loss.

I agree, and for a sun collector even more so.

> A six quart pressure cooker filled to 4 quarts takes about 10 minutes on
> "high"  to come up to pressure, it takes half power to maintain pressure
> with a minimal "hiss".

Ok, 4 quarts ~= 3.7 liters, with 4.2J/g*K and dT=100K in 600 seconds is
about 2.6kW in. I assume this is an electrical heater ?

> 15 pounds of pressure may not seem like much but when it is superheated
> water a sudden breach releases a lot of energy. A smaller pressure vesell
> would minimize the risk.

I agree. The pressure cooker I had in mind was the small kind, 2 liters capacity.

> I cannot recommend a pressure  cooker for anything other than its intended
> use. It excels as a cooking tool.

Yes, but this is an engineering-related list ;-) ;-) Also making a pressure
and heat-proof boyler from scratch is much harder than adapting something like
a pressure cooker.

Sorry about the joke about the distillation use.

Please see attached photos of a 10 Watt 2 in. impulse turbine I built in 2002. This would run on Victorian steam with a different nozzle. It requires 2.2-2.5 bars for optimal operation. It has a shunt type voltage regulator that also prevents turbine overrevving (by loading it down), but not overtemperature. Air consumption is about 1l/sec at 3bar with 8.1 W out on load (9Vdc at 0.9A into 10 Ohms - this exceeds the limits of the generator slightly, the turbine is not the limiting factor here).

thanks,
Peter

PS: The photos did not go through, sending them 1 by 1


---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.

2006\11\24@053032 by Peter P.

picon face
part 1 189 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 (unknown type 8bit not decoded)

Image 1 of 3 - Turbine model 1


---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.

part 2 10805 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; name="mvc-039f.jpg" (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2006\11\24@053246 by Peter P.

picon face
part 1 240 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 (unknown type 8bit not decoded)

Image 2 of 3 - Turbine model 2 on chassis with nozzle


---------------------------------
Sponsored Link

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part 2 29961 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; name="airgen11.jpg" (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2006\11\24@053450 by Peter P.

picon face
part 1 283 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 (unknown type 8bit not decoded)

Image 3 of 3 - Turbine model 2 top view, with voltage regulator (shunt)

Peter P.


---------------------------------
Sponsored Link

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part 2 34061 bytes content-type:image/jpeg; name="airgen21.jpg" (decode)


part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2006\11\24@054414 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Image 1 of 3 - Turbine model 1

turbine looks a bit like a Pelton wheel, which is not surprising considering
both are used with high speed small quantity flows.

2006\11\24@060446 by Peter P.

picon face
Peter P. <plpeter2006 <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> Image 1 of 3 - Turbine model 1

The g** d*** bitrot ate the other two images. I don't know what next. The other
images are more interesting because they show the whole assembly. I will find a
website and post them there. All the parts of the net that do not run on some
kind of *nix suck eggs. Sorry about the language.

Peter


2006\11\24@070456 by Peter P.

picon face

Following up on the mystery of the bitrotten images I have set up a page on
GeoCities for this. Follow the link please:

 http://www.geocities.com/plpeter2006/piclist-airgen.html

I love it when email disappears (two out of three messages) with no warning or
error message.

Peter P.



2006\11\24@072949 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Peter,

Sorry I just started to catch up with this threat. What are you using for
this stuff? Is that a kind of steam driven turbine? Do you want to use the
spinning force or the thrust?

Sorry for these stupid questions but I'd like to build a gas turbine for my
models by the time I become brave enough and have a very good life insurance
:-)

Thanks,
Tamas



On 11/24/06, Peter P. <@spam@plpeter2006KILLspamspamyahoo.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\24@073559 by Peter P.

picon face
Tamas Rudnai <tamas.rudnai <at> gmail.com> writes:

>
> Peter,
>
> Sorry I just started to catch up with this threat. What are you using for
> this stuff? Is that a kind of steam driven turbine? Do you want to use the
> spinning force or the thrust?
>
> Sorry for these stupid questions but I'd like to build a gas turbine for my
> models by the time I become brave enough and have a very good life insurance

I am not using it for anything now, it was meant to power a microcontroller on a
tool that had no electrical connection. It is not suitable for steam as is now
due to the plastic nozzle. With a metal nozzle it should work with 2-3 bar steam
(120-135 degC).

Peter




2006\11\24@081909 by Peter P.

picon face
Peter P. <plpeter2006 <at> yahoo.com> writes:

> Image 2 of 3 - Turbine model 2 on chassis with nozzle

Unbelievable. Where did these spend a few hours ?!

Peter P.


2006\11\24@085118 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Nowadays in every router there is a new security measurement, every
attachment has to be unpacked and put into the x-ray belt, only 1KB of
comment allowed inside a jpg which is in a clear plastic and there is no way
to carry sharp bits or anything like that.



On 11/24/06, Peter P. <KILLspamplpeter2006KILLspamspamyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Peter P. <plpeter2006 <at> yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > Image 2 of 3 - Turbine model 2 on chassis with nozzle
>
> Unbelievable. Where did these spend a few hours ?!
>
> Peter P.
>
>
> -

2006\11\24@090626 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Unbelievable. Where did these spend a few hours ?!

I can see you are in trouble with the FBI and homeland security, for
releasing images of national importance ... ;))))

2006\11\24@093745 by John Ferrell

face picon face
No offense taken regarding the still. It turns me off because anything I
have fermented or distilled has fallen far below the quality of cheap wine!

You sound very well organized and have done your homework well but you would
not be the first to underestimate the power of steam.

Heating the whole supply of water is inefficient and dangerous. A separate
boiler may add a little complexity but will likely be worth the effort.

If you choose to use the pressure cooker as a steam source consider:
   Limit the volume of water in a test cycle to a small amount.
   Fabricate or buy some kind of pop-off regulator that you can adjust to
your needs to further assure a safe operation.

I consider steam power a sleeping giant that will become a more important as
the cost of petroleum continues to rise. The Stanley Steamer automobile was
never refined but the technology is still there.

BTW, model airplane builders sometimes use plastic soda bottles for pressure
accumulators to operate retractable gear. They burst about 150 psi. Of
course they will not take the heat of steam. There has to be something in
the trash pile that will.... Maybe an empty butane container? Don't forget a
safety pop-off!

John Ferrell    W8CCW
"My Competition is not my enemy"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2006\11\24@094900 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> BTW, model airplane builders sometimes use plastic soda bottles for
pressure
> accumulators to operate retractable gear. They burst about 150 psi. Of
> course they will not take the heat of steam. There has to be something in
> the trash pile that will.... Maybe an empty butane container? Don't forget
a
> safety pop-off!

That's true, and several years ago some modeller used soda patrons (if some
of you remembers for those) so that a small two-stroke-like engine used the
energy of high pressurized co2 to move down the piston. The drawback was
that it was hard enough to keep the engine warm enough not to freeze the
pipes cutting off the co2 supply.

Tamas



On 11/24/06, John Ferrell <RemoveMEjohnferrellTakeThisOuTspamearthlink.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2006\11\24@095657 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>BTW, model airplane builders sometimes use plastic soda bottles for
>pressure accumulators to operate retractable gear. They burst about
>150 psi. Of course they will not take the heat of steam. There has
>to be something in the trash pile that will.... Maybe an empty butane
>container? Don't forget a safety pop-off!

I have this vision in the back of my mind of a kamikaze plane hitting
something and exploding on impact from the air pressure in the accumulator
... ;)

2006\11\24@121550 by Peter P.

picon face
Alan B. Pearce <A.B.Pearce <at> rl.ac.uk> writes:

> >Unbelievable. Where did these spend a few hours ?!
>
> I can see you are in trouble with the FBI and homeland security, for
> releasing images of national importance ... ;))))

*Whose* nation would that be ?! Even my sense of humor has hiccups when such
things happen.

Peter P.




2006\11\24@125110 by Peter P.

picon face
John Ferrell <johnferrell <at> earthlink.net> writes:

> No offense taken regarding the still. It turns me off because anything I
> have fermented or distilled has fallen far below the quality of cheap wine!

Where I come from they say if it's strong enough the taste does not count
because you can't feel it anyway ...

> You sound very well organized and have done your homework well but you would
> not be the first to underestimate the power of steam.

Thanks, I am not so well organized. I do not underestimate the power of steam,
but imho most people thing of a steam engine along the lines of 'let's boil
some water and then ...'. Some reading up on how power stations work is in
order to dispel this myth. The steam used to sterilise surgical ustensils,
make coffe and peel skin off dead animals is not in the same category with
power station steam.

> Heating the whole supply of water is inefficient and dangerous. A separate
> boiler may add a little complexity but will likely be worth the effort.

I agree, the best way is a 'tube' heater with counterflow (using light that is
not so straightforward but anyway ...). The problem with this is the same as
coffee machine vs. power station: it has to use very pure water and advanced
controls or there will be no tubes left after a few days at most. The 'kettle'
style Victorian technology is much more forgiving.

> If you choose to use the pressure cooker as a steam source consider:
>     Limit the volume of water in a test cycle to a small amount.
>     Fabricate or buy some kind of pop-off regulator that you can adjust to
> your needs to further assure a safe operation.

I would like to use an unmodified kettle as is for testing, using the original
regulator output as open vent to the nozzle of the turbine. This means that the
vessel will never be closed. The original burst disk will be in place. Also I
will use a thermometer.

> I consider steam power a sleeping giant that will become a more important as
> the cost of petroleum continues to rise. The Stanley Steamer automobile was
> never refined but the technology is still there.

I am not sure. Oil will certainly run out but Carnot's physics will not change
and steam is a really bad idea efficiency-wise unless high tech is used to
handle it. Consider that all the high efficiency motors built to date did
*not* use *any* phase change (as in boiling). The reason is obvious: the phase
change 'hides' a huge amount of energy from the thermodynamic cycle. While
boiling water energy is put into water that does no work. When it condenses
energy travels out of the water and does no work. You don't want any of that
unproductive transformation in an efficient cycle. At the very last it makes
for huge and heavy plants for steam (as they all are).

I think that it is more likely that high tech materials will allow high
pressure closed cycle thermodynamic engines to work more reliably. That means
H2, He, even CO2 at very high pressure in a closed circuit not unlike todays
refrigerators (but without phase change for power output - as opposed to with
phase change for cooling/heating where the phase change's heat transport
properties are desirable).

F.ex. few people realise that a normal refrigeration circuit can be used to
extract energy if the compressor is reversible (it is not for most built units
unfortunately). Such a device could run from the temperature difference between
air and water in a lake, both in summer and in winter, for example.

It would be nice to see such units mass produced so they can be used in solar
and waste heat applications.

> BTW, model airplane builders sometimes use plastic soda bottles for pressure
> accumulators to operate retractable gear. They burst about 150 psi. Of
> course they will not take the heat of steam. There has to be something in
> the trash pile that will.... Maybe an empty butane container? Don't forget a
> safety pop-off!

I know but I think that the unmodified pressure cooker is a 'tried' thing. It
can supply the steam for a tiny engine or turbine so some figures can be
obtained. So far there are too many question marks about this system.
Everything is 'estimated' so far. I do not like that.

Meanwhile I found another source for a boyler: There are small coffee machines
that are meant to be put on a stove. They do not work at 15 psi but they also
have the burst disk etc as in a pressure cooker.

Peter


2006\11\24@140645 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Peter P. wrote:

> The g** d*** bitrot ate the other two images. I don't know what next.
> The other images are more interesting because they show the whole
> assembly. I will find a website and post them there. All the parts of
> the net that do not run on some kind of *nix suck eggs. Sorry about the
> language.

Do you have any indication what kind of system (*nix, *nux, Windows,
whatever) held your messages back?

When I look at the headers of the second picture message, I see this
(reformatted and some irrelevant parts removed to improve readability):

 Original-Received:
   from pch.mit.edu (pch.mit.edu [127.0.0.1])
   by pch.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.8);
   Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:01:05 -0500

 Original-Received:
   from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83])
   by pch.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.8) for <spamBeGonepiclistspamBeGonespamPCH.mit.edu>;
   Fri, 24 Nov 2006 05:32:52 -0500

All other hops are relatively quick. It seems that the message took a tour
of pch.mit.edu for some 2.5 hours. Possibly sucking eggs during that time,
which likely were served on a *nix system :)

Gerhard

2006\11\24@154055 by Peter P.

picon face
Gerhard Fiedler <lists <at> connectionbrazil.com> writes:

> Do you have any indication what kind of system (*nix, *nux, Windows,
> whatever) held your messages back?
>
> When I look at the headers of the second picture message, I see this
> (reformatted and some irrelevant parts removed to improve readability):
>
>   Original-Received:
>     from pch.mit.edu (pch.mit.edu [127.0.0.1])
>     by pch.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.8);
>     Fri, 24 Nov 2006 08:01:05 -0500
>
>   Original-Received:
>     from pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu ([18.7.21.83])
>     by pch.mit.edu (8.13.6/8.12.8) for <piclist <at> PCH.mit.edu>;
>     Fri, 24 Nov 2006 05:32:52 -0500
>
> All other hops are relatively quick. It seems that the message took a tour
> of pch.mit.edu for some 2.5 hours. Possibly sucking eggs during that time,
> which likely were served on a *nix system :)

Humans who interfere with email (several of my messages passed through that
server during said 2.5 hours, including a photo in the same format, AND an email
to the admin at mit.edu due to the initial bounce went unanswered during that
time) are known to suck eggs with much more proficiency than any machines, *nix
or not. That counts double for BSOFHs who do not work for the DHS or its local
equivalent and do it anyway for fun or out of aquired compulsion, without being
under strict orders. I think that they released the images in disgust, seeing
that I had created a webpage for them in the mean time and uploaded them anyway.

there, I feel better now,
Peter



2006\11\25@120610 by Peter P.

picon face
The obvious place to look for answers:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_cooker

sigh,
Peter


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