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PICList Thread
'[OT]: PSX mod chip for PSOne'
2000\12\11@022551 by Roman Black

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Just an observation, regardless of my views on the actual
"hacking" topic, I have noticed that people seem to have
the same strong, unbending opinions re moral issues like
this, very similar to their views on politics and religion.

So, if people feel very strongly about this issue, maybe
it would be rude to waste list bandwidth with long posts
that will NEVER EVER change someones beliefs (like
religious/political arguments). I am sure every person who
posted is convinced that they/their views are right. But I
doubt it will ever change someones views. So maybe it's
a waste of time??

I thought James was a bit bit rough and maybe harsh with
his input re this topic, but I am fairly new here so I
can't act like I know the history of this stuff on the
list (and the probs it caused), but I bet James does.

It wouldn't bother me for people to discuss copy protection
hacking, in fact many of us might benefit from this in
terms of gaining knowlege re protecting our own products.

But since:
* people will argue a lot and it really achieves nothing,
* sharing advice on illegal activity is not good for the
list's reputation,
* strong arguments tend to make people dislike each other

I think I have to agree with James that this topic is
better suited to the "hacker" sites where people are
not deterred that their actions will be attracting
federal agent attention. After all, the world is getting
more electronic every day, and countries all over the
world are devoting more and more money and federal agent
time to scour the net to find any leads they can on the
kind of people that use technology to steal. Maybe game
hacking seems harmless but to a tech-crime agent who
is searching the net for keywords, this could hurt the
list and it's members. Especially as a member of the TV
service industry I would not want to be a regular on
a list that is always discussing this topic. Even though
I hate censorship I have to agree with James' strong
handling of this matter.
-Roman

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2000\12\11@023903 by dre Domingos F. Souza

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>But since:
>* sharing advice on illegal activity is not good for the
>list's reputation,

       The whole point of the thread, Roman, is that chipping a PSX **isn't** an illegal activity, since it can be used to other things beyond backups. Not only can it be used to play "imports", which being original copies and being legally imported, **cannot be impeded of running in a user's machine**, but also can be used to turn your simple PSX in a developer's machine, with LEGAL software found everywhere in the internet.

       The whole point is: Some people are shortsighted - I don't wana mean "don't agree to piracy - so is shortsighted". I wanna mean "the modchip is as illegal as a CDR, a VCR or a K-7 recorder. It can be used to evil things. It can be used to wonderful things.". People are hard to accept they are wrong. But this is my oppinion - there are 2 sides of the same coin, a bad side and a good side. Which one you will show, is up to you. But tell a simple request for a mod chip is piracy, I don't agree. And I hope you tell me something who will made me agree.


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2000\12\11@074343 by Bob Ammerman

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As far as I am concerned, the _only_ legal and moral use of a mod chip is to
allow you to use backups of games you own.

In reality, I am willing to bet that 99 & 44/100 % of modchip users are
using them for one or both of the following:

1: to play illegal copies (hopefully this is obviously wrong to all, but
... )

2: to play 'out-of-region' games (admittedly this is a little fuzzier). I
submit this is at least morally wrong even in those jurisdictions where it
is legal. Remember, you do _not_ buy unlimited rights to a game/cd/tape's
contents when you buy the media on which it is recorded. The content creator
has the right to license their product as they see fit. If they choose to
split their market into regions that is their business (even though I think
they are being short-sighted).

I am also willing to bet that the originally poster of the modchip question
here was not planning on running backups of games he owns.

I'll say it one more time: it isn't the specific issue of modchipping that
drives me crazy. What I can't stand is the fact that _society_ has taken the
attitude that intellectual property is somehow less 'real' than physical
property and that thus moral and legal restrictions on stealing it are
somehow 'bad' or 'wrong'.

This is evidenced very strongly even here on PICLIST where one could hope
that many if not most of the members would, for selfish reasons at least, be
protective of intellectual property rights.

I fight this battle with people all the time. I had a visitor at my home
yesterday who was boasting how he had got an illegal copy of M$ Office 2000
from a friend. He was shocked that I didn't congratulate him for doing so.
What is really amazing is that after I gave him an earful on the matter (not
that I convinced him of course); about 10 minutes later he was going on
about how he wants a CDR drive so he can burn CD's off Napster.

One last time:

Just becuase you don't like someone (including a corporation -- which is
really its stockholders) is no excuse to harm them.

Just becuase you feel a law is inappropriate (whether it be a speed limit or
a copyright statute) is no excuse to violate it. (and yes, I do sometimes
drive over the limit, and yes, I know I shouldn't and no, I don't really
have an excuse for this).

Just because you think that life is not fair to your personal set of
beliefs/wishes is no excuse to perform immoral acts.

Sorry about the preaching. This is really a very sore spot with me and I am
disappointed that so few PICLISTers can see what is very obvious to me.

I really think I have said all I can or need to say on this topic, so I'll
try to stop eating bandwith on it, though I do reserve the right to respond
to specific statements/arguments against the points I've made.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\12\11@082716 by Stephen B Webb

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> "hacking" topic, I have noticed that people seem to have
> the same strong, unbending opinions re moral issues like

This is the tendancy, yes -- but I don't think it is quite the same.

> that will NEVER EVER change someones beliefs (like

Actually, I think it's important to publicly discuss such things (perhaps
this list isn't the appropriate place, though) because
a) it _does_ change people's opinions on such matters
b) it helps people with conflicting views understand (not necessarily
agree with) other people's views.

For instance, I hadn't taken the time to think about Sony as a collection
of stock holders, but rather a faceless munti-national corporation.  I
still tend to think of them *primarily* as a corporation, but I have
integrated the idea of "real people" into my "large corporation model".  I
have also learned that some people believe that intellectual property is
equivalent to physical property, and I have hopefully caused them to
reconsider this idea.

> doubt it will ever change someones views. So maybe it's
> a waste of time??

Not a waste of time.  It is important that there is dialogue between the
Democrats and the Republicans, for instance.  No, they will likely never
see eye to eye, but through discussions / debates, they may expose some
common ground, or at least understand each others opinions, etc.

> * strong arguments tend to make people dislike each other

Personal jabs and other non-constructive arguments may cause this.  I tend
to respect someone who has opinions and backs them up with reasonable
arguments much better than I do someone who doesn't.


-Steve

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2000\12\11@084807 by Stephen B Webb

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> In reality, I am willing to bet that 99 & 44/100 % of modchip users are
> using them for one or both of the following:

Probably so.

> 1: to play illegal copies (hopefully this is obviously wrong to all, but
Agreed.

> 2: to play 'out-of-region' games (admittedly this is a little fuzzier). I

> is legal. Remember, you do _not_ buy unlimited rights to a game/cd/tape's
> contents when you buy the media on which it is recorded. The content creator
> has the right to license their product as they see fit. If they choose to
...
> I'll say it one more time: it isn't the specific issue of modchipping that
> drives me crazy. What I can't stand is the fact that _society_ has taken the
> attitude that intellectual property is somehow less 'real' than physical
> property and that thus moral and legal restrictions on stealing it are
> somehow 'bad' or 'wrong'.

To me it's clear that IP is _different_ than physical property.  In
particular:  "content creator has the right to license their prodcut as
they see fit..."  Ok, that may be true for a DVD or PS1 game, but it's not
true for my Seiko watch or my brand new flashlight.


> Just becuase you don't like someone (including a corporation -- which is
> really its stockholders) is no excuse to harm them.

When the music industry "cartel" holds the prices of CDs artificially
high, costing consumers $1-$3 extra per CD, that, to me, is wrong.  Once a
corporation does something like this, I feel much less bad about
"screwing" them out of money.  Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's not
clear to me how to "fight back" effectively.  Desperation?  perhaps.

For the record, I currently own fewer than 5 CDs.  I have ZERO MP3s, and
no illegal recordings on tape/cd/ or otherwise.  I don't like music.

> Just becuase you feel a law is inappropriate (whether it be a speed limit or
> a copyright statute) is no excuse to violate it. (and yes, I do sometimes

I used to hold this opinion.  If you don't agree with the law, work to
change it.  I have since come to thing that blatant defiance of such laws
are sometimes the appropriate response.  Flag burning comes to mind.


> try to stop eating bandwith on it, though I do reserve the right to respond
> to specific statements/arguments against the points I've made.

yes, of course! :)

-Steve

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2000\12\11@092101 by dre Domingos F. Souza

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>As far as I am concerned, the _only_ legal and moral use of a mod chip is to
>allow you to use backups of games you own.

       No. You NEED to use a mod chip if you want to do any kind of PSX development at home, which is completely legal. Without the mod chip, you cannot boot the CD-Rs you create with your programs.

>I'll say it one more time: it isn't the specific issue of modchipping that
>drives me crazy. What I can't stand is the fact that _society_ has taken the
>attitude that intellectual property is somehow less 'real' than physical
>property and that thus moral and legal restrictions on stealing it are
>somehow 'bad' or 'wrong'.

       So will you begin a crusade against CD-Rs, VCRs and K-7 recorders? It's insane! I do agree with you that people are thinking that "if it doesn't has atoms, it does not exist". As you may know, this is a very new world, a brave new way of thinking. So people needs to get used to it, and get SLOWLY. A paradigm shift (wow! I'd always wanted to use this expression!!!) cannot happen in 24 hours, involving most of the people of the world. Each day more and more people understands that we are in a new world, with new values and new rules, so we have to learn to abide to them.

>I fight this battle with people all the time. I had a visitor at my home
>yesterday who was boasting how he had got an illegal copy of M$ Office 2000
>from a friend. He was shocked that I didn't congratulate him for doing so.
>What is really amazing is that after I gave him an earful on the matter (not
>that I convinced him of course); about 10 minutes later he was going on
>about how he wants a CDR drive so he can burn CD's off Napster.

       Well, there is NO wrong in burn CDs off napster. The wrong is to DOWNLOAD and STORE (and listen, and etc) music you haven't paid for. Lots of people puts their (yep, their) music for free for everyone to download. You find real gems there. And what about the music you ALREADY have in vinyl, k7 and 8-track? You don't have the equipment, time or will to digitalize it, so can't you take a copy of the album YOU OWN in the internet??? I have more than 500 vinyl discs here of progressive rock. They deteriorate with the time! Downloading the digitalized music from the internet saves me time. I cannot spend 3 hours in each disc, digitalizing, cleaning and storing in a CD-R. In my viewpoint, THIS IS LEGAL. Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm fully open to discuss this matter.

>Just becuase you feel a law is inappropriate (whether it be a speed limit or
>a copyright statute) is no excuse to violate it. (and yes, I do sometimes
>drive over the limit, and yes, I know I shouldn't and no, I don't really
>have an excuse for this).

       Some laws are inappropriate. Since the ones who make the laws are elected by us, it's our responsability to try to change it. But violate it is a crime. Agreeing with the thinkings of the one you voted, and created this law, automatically binds you to agree with the fu***ng law.

>Sorry about the preaching. This is really a very sore spot with me and I am
>disappointed that so few PICLISTers can see what is very obvious to me.

       Bob, maybe some people understands all you say, but it's not yet so clear. I know people who lived from pirating programs, and now works against it. People has to know the truth, but first has to understand WHAT is truth.

>I really think I have said all I can or need to say on this topic, so I'll
>try to stop eating bandwith on it, though I do reserve the right to respond
>to specific statements/arguments against the points I've made.

       Yeah, sure. :o)


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2000\12\11@105251 by jamesnewton

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Thanks for the support...

...one minor (but important, I think) point is that in my lexicon, the
PICList *IS* a "hacker" list and I was referring people who want to break
copyprotection to "cracker" or "phreaking" lists and sites. See
http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hacker.html

Thanks for caring about the PICList.

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2000\12\11@195225 by John Mullan

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-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Bob Ammerman
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:33 AM
To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT]: PSX mod chip for PSOne


1: to play illegal copies (hopefully this is obviously wrong to all, but
... )

       JM --> Yes, it's wrong


2: to play 'out-of-region' games (admittedly this is a little fuzzier). I

       JM --> Yes, fuzzier

I am also willing to bet that the originally poster of the modchip question
here was not planning on running backups of games he owns.

       JM --> Nope.  You are wrong.

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2000\12\11@205340 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
>>As far as I am concerned, the _only_ legal and moral use of a mod chip is
to
>>allow you to use backups of games you own.

> No. You NEED to use a mod chip if you want to do any kind of PSX
development at home, which is >completely legal. Without the mod chip, you
cannot boot the CD-Rs you create with your programs.

Yeah, I guess I can agree with that.

>>I'll say it one more time: it isn't the specific issue of modchipping that
>>drives me crazy. What I can't stand is the fact that _society_ has taken
the
>>attitude that intellectual property is somehow less 'real' than physical
>>property and that thus moral and legal restrictions on stealing it are
>>somehow 'bad' or 'wrong'.

> So will you begin a crusade against CD-Rs, VCRs and K-7 recorders? It's
insane!

Not really, when these things are used for legit purposes that's fine by me
(I even use them myself!).

>>...about 10 minutes later he was going on
>>about how he wants a CDR drive so he can burn CD's off Napster.

> Well, there is NO wrong in burn CDs off napster. The wrong is to DOWNLOAD
and STORE (and listen,
> and etc) music you haven't paid for.

Which is exactly what my buddy intended to do, by burning music he didn't
own onto CD.

>Lots of people puts their (yep, their) music for free for everyone to
download. You find real gems there.

This is, IMHO, terrific. Kind of like 'open source' music.

>And what about the music you ALREADY have in vinyl, k7 and 8-track?
> You don't have the equipment, time or will to digitalize it, so can't you
take a
> copy of the album YOU OWN in the internet??? I have more than 500 vinyl
>discs here of progressive rock.

IMHO, this is certainly legal and moral (as long as you don't give away
either the original or the copy.

>>Just becuase you feel a law is inappropriate (whether it be a speed limit
or
>>a copyright statute) is no excuse to violate it. (and yes, I do sometimes
>>drive over the limit, and yes, I know I shouldn't and no, I don't really
>>have an excuse for this).

>Some laws are inappropriate. Since the ones who make the laws are elected
by us,
> it's our responsability to try to change it. But violate it is a crime.
> Agreeing with the thinkings of the one you voted, and created this law,
automatically
> binds you to agree with the fu***ng law.

Yep, until such time as the law is changed.

>>Sorry about the preaching. This is really a very sore spot with me and I
am
>>disappointed that so few PICLISTers can see what is very obvious to me.

>Bob, maybe some people understands all you say, but it's not yet so clear.
>I know people who lived from pirating programs, and now works against it.
>People has to know the truth, but first has to understand WHAT is truth.

Amen to that.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\12\11@215437 by dre Domingos F. Souza

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>> No. You NEED to use a mod chip if you want to do any kind of PSX
>development at home, which is >completely legal. Without the mod chip, you
>cannot boot the CD-Rs you create with your programs.
>Yeah, I guess I can agree with that.

       EEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! We came to an agreement!!! EEEHHH!!! Who said a public discussion cannot bring two different thinkings togheter??? :oD

       Congratulations to us two, Bob! :o)

>> So will you begin a crusade against CD-Rs, VCRs and K-7 recorders? It's
>insane!
>Not really, when these things are used for legit purposes that's fine by me
>(I even use them myself!).

       So there it is! A mod chip can be used for legit purposes. If someone wants to use a mod chip for piracy, or a knife for killing (here they are good to cut wires and cheese...hummm!!!), it's their problem. But we cannot be guilty of having a mod chip or a knife, or even using one.

>>Lots of people puts their (yep, their) music for free for everyone to
>download. You find real gems there.
>This is, IMHO, terrific. Kind of like 'open source' music.

       This is not terrific. They just want to make money. Metallica gave away demo tapes when they were less than shit. Now they are shit, they charge $20 for a disc.

>> copy of the album YOU OWN in the internet??? I have more than 500 vinyl
>>discs here of progressive rock.
>IMHO, this is certainly legal and moral (as long as you don't give away
>either the original or the copy.

       This is nice, and it's a good point to be discussed, since it seems to be logical, but at the same time seems to come to the "gray area" of legislation. Of course, not to be discussed here :o) Music does not have a PIC on it :oD


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2000\12\11@235050 by Bill Westfield

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   > No. You NEED to use a mod chip if you want to do any kind of PSX
   development at home, which is >completely legal. Without the mod chip, you
   cannot boot the CD-Rs you create with your programs.

   Yeah, I guess I can agree with that.

Why?  The PS game consoles were not sold as development machines, and who
knows how Sony feels about people developing games/etc without signing all
the appropriate "partnership" agreements.  For that matter, they may not
like you PLAYING games developed outside of normal channels - did you read
your license agreements?  Next thing you know, you'll be taking cheap
internet appliances and turning them into linux systems (oops, too late.)
This is just another step in the "fuzzy" direction from playing
out-of-country content...

This is ultimately the problem with "intellectual property rights."  You end
up with people who've done no work collecting royalties on "obvious" ideas;
beneficiaries holding back publications of well-loved (and out-of-print)
books; rather corrupt publication industries; and generally people and
corporations with IP "rights" that they neither deserve nor exercise
responsibly.

BillW

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2000\12\12@171321 by klpauba

picon face
John Mullan wrote:

>
> I am also willing to bet that the originally poster of the modchip question
> here was not planning on running backups of games he owns.
>
>         JM --> Nope.  You are wrong.
>

Just last week I was walking in my sons'  room and stepped on playstation
disk.  Poof .... $60 bucks down the drain.  It immediately occured to me that
those mod chips aren't always used to make illegal copies.  Had I made a
backup, I wouldn't have been as upset.

The tough part for them to accept, though, is why we can't copy all of those
games we rent like all their friends do (since they are 12 and 10 years old).

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2000\12\18@104118 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
On Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:32:51 -0500 Bob Ammerman <EraseMERAMMERMANspamspamspamBeGonePRODIGY.NET>
writes:
>
> I fight this battle with people all the time. I had a visitor at my
> home
> yesterday who was boasting how he had got an illegal copy of M$
> Office 2000
> from a friend. He was shocked that I didn't congratulate him for
> doing so.

       I actually convinced friends who were running a "borrowed" copy of
Microsoft Office to go out and buy a licensed copy!

Harold


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2000\12\18@201307 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
>         I actually convinced friends who were running a "borrowed" copy of
> Microsoft Office to go out and buy a licensed copy!
>
> Harold

How?!?

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

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2000\12\19@043922 by wzab

flavicon
picon face
On Mon, Dec 18, 2000 at 08:10:07PM -0500, Bob Ammerman wrote:
> >         I actually convinced friends who were running a "borrowed" copy of
> > Microsoft Office to go out and buy a licensed copy!
> >
> > Harold
>
> How?!?
>
I know yet better solution - convince them to use the OpenOffice
( http://www.openoffice.org ) - no costs and "borrowing" problems at all
;-).
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2000\12\21@040424 by dre Domingos F. Souza

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face
>>         I actually convinced friends who were running a "borrowed" copy of
>> Microsoft Office to go out and buy a licensed copy!
>How?!?

       Telling "this is not fair, boys! The beast will come and eat your balls!!!"


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2000\12\21@060552 by Arthur Brown

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My mouse has No Balls

ReGARDS Art.

merry chistmas to all. or holiday to br PC.

----- Original Message -----
From: Alexandre Domingos F. Souza <KILLspamxandinhospamBeGonespamINTERLINK.COM.BR>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: PSX mod chip for PSOne


>>         I actually convinced friends who were running a "borrowed" copy
of
>> Microsoft Office to go out and buy a licensed copy!
>How?!?

       Telling "this is not fair, boys! The beast will come and eat your
balls!!!"


--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

       All the best!!!
       Alexandre Souza
       @spam@xandinho@spam@spamspam_OUTinterlink.com.br
       Linux User #85093

--------------8<-------Corte aqui-------8<--------------

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2000\12\23@082123 by Morgan Olsson

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Hej Wojtek Zabolotny. Tack för ditt meddelande 10:28 2000-12-19 enligt nedan:
>I know yet better solution - convince them to use the OpenOffice
>( http://www.openoffice.org ) - no costs and "borrowing" problems at all

We find Staroffice very capable and easy to work with.  Can also import/export files to customers who for whatever reason (if any) , use M$ products.
http://www.staroffice.com


Regards
/Morgan

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