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'[OT]: My version of visual programming'
2003\06\23@084509 by Bob Ammerman

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> >
> > Borland C Builder has been around since before M$ had rad tools (I still
> > have Turbo C 2.0). Its user interface is correspondingly smooth. I am
not
> > bashing VB but apart from a 'good' name aquired by volume and
advertising,
> > what advantages does it have ?

BC Builder does not prdate VB. Perchaps BC or TC do, but the OWL framework
they supported left a lot to be desired.

> How about considerably better debugging capabilities?  Due to it's
> interpreted nature ( at least when running through the IDE), you can set
the
> program pointer to an arbitrary location within a function, so you can
make
> a change to a line of code and simply drag the execution pointer up to
> execute that line again, no re-compiling etc.  There are some limitations
to
> what you can change on the fly (constant variables and select case
statement
> values primarily) but it really speeds up debugging over the typical C
IDE.
> You can also execute lines of code in the immediate window at any time.
For
> me, the fantastic debugging more than makes up for many of the other
> problems with VB.
>

VC++ with its 'edit-and-continue' feature approaches VB for debugging ease.

I use both VC++ and VB extensively. I apply each to the domain where it
works best and find no trouble switching between the two.
Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2003\06\23@125810 by Robert Rolf

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Bob Ammerman wrote:
>
>
> VC++ with its 'edit-and-continue' feature approaches VB for debugging ease.
>
> I use both VC++ and VB extensively. I apply each to the domain where it
> works best and find no trouble switching between the two.
> Bob Ammerman
> RAm Systems

So Bob, what would you suggest are the 'best' suited domains for each
of the above development environments? Why?

R

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2003\06\23@134950 by Bob Ammerman

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> Bob Ammerman wrote:
> >
> >
> > VC++ with its 'edit-and-continue' feature approaches VB for debugging
ease.
{Quote hidden}

I knew that was the next question  ;-)

Points in favor of using C++:

high performance required
extensive use of system apis
creating COM objects
wide distribution of resulting program
Fancy UI manipulation
Windows standard UI appearance
detailed bits and bytes code

Points in favor of using VB:

a lot of straightforward UI logic
use of COM objects, especially database access
quickly thrown together apps

Bob

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2003\06\24@045438 by Alan B. Pearce

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>So Bob, what would you suggest are the 'best' suited domains
>for each of the above development environments? Why?

One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the user windows,
and using VC++ for the deep down code.

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2003\06\24@115850 by Herbert Graf

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> >So Bob, what would you suggest are the 'best' suited domains
> >for each of the above development environments? Why?
>
> One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
> extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the user windows,
> and using VC++ for the deep down code.

       Have a look at Borland C Builder, all the benefits of C, along with a REAL
RAD environment, you don't have to limit yourself to Microsoft products.
TTYL

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2003\06\24@120515 by Herbert Graf

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> Herbert,
>
> I've not seen the whole of this thread, but you stated in the
> earlier message
> that VB is "dung", "hell-spawn", etc, and made it fairly clear
> that you hate
> it.  Here, you seem to want to explain why, but instead make a
> case that VB
> is a poor choice for a *first* language.  They're not the same
> argument.  I
> don't see an explanation why VB itself is bad.

       That's because I haven't given one, and won't because it'll anger too many
people here.

> Also, bad or good needs to be qualified for certain situations and
> environments.  Everything has it's place, and perhaps given certain
> conditions and criteria, VB may be a good choice.  The efficiency and
> reliability of the resulting application are unfortunately not the only
> factors in choosing a development language.

       Agreed, everyone says that they like VB for it's fast development, but have
you tried NON Microsoft environments? I can (and have) built apps as quick
or even quicker using Borland C Builder (only one of the options out there)
as the best VB programmer, with the benefit of my code looking much neater
and being more obvious.

       As I said before, I won't continue since it will simply start a flame war
(as others here have already attempted to start). Thanks, TTYL

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2003\06\24@121502 by Bob Axtell

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Herbert, you are on the mark.

Being an ole Pascal programmer, I have had extremely good results with
Borland Delphi, which is available on more platforms than MS products.
Borland's products are extremely well-behaved and stand totally alone- no
VBRUN is required.

--Bob

At 12:05 PM 6/24/2003 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\06\24@124407 by Mike Singer

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Herbert Graf wrote:
> ... I can (and have) built apps as quick or even quicker
> using Borland C Builder (only one of the options out there)
> as the best VB programmer, with the benefit of my code
> looking much neater and being more obvious.
>
> As I said before, I won't continue since it will simply
> start a flame war (as others here have already attempted
> to start). Thanks, TTYL

I suspect "others" it's me :-). Cause I was heavily admined
offlist for my last message on this thread.
My "flame war" was near to be started not against Borland but
rather against your non-so-consistent arguments against MS :-)

Mike.

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2003\06\24@130238 by Herbert Graf

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> Herbert Graf wrote:
> > ... I can (and have) built apps as quick or even quicker
> > using Borland C Builder (only one of the options out there)
> > as the best VB programmer, with the benefit of my code
> > looking much neater and being more obvious.
> >
> > As I said before, I won't continue since it will simply
> > start a flame war (as others here have already attempted
> > to start). Thanks, TTYL
>
> I suspect "others" it's me :-). Cause I was heavily admined
> offlist for my last message on this thread.

       You were not heavily admined, you were reminded that your behaviour was
unacceptable.

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2003\06\24@204215 by Bob Ammerman

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Herbert Graf" <KILLspammailinglistKILLspamspamFARCITE.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: My version of visual programming


> > >So Bob, what would you suggest are the 'best' suited domains
> > >for each of the above development environments? Why?
> >
> > One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
> > extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the user
windows,
> > and using VC++ for the deep down code.
>
>         Have a look at Borland C Builder, all the benefits of C, along
with a REAL
> RAD environment, you don't have to limit yourself to Microsoft products.
> TTYL

Yep, BC builder is good stuff. Unfortunately I have a couple of clients who
are 'in bed' with Mickeysoft. I used Turbo Pascal since version 1, and
Delphi too. Borland has always made good stuff (except OWL - that stunk!).

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2003\06\24@212335 by Herbert Graf

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> Yep, BC builder is good stuff. Unfortunately I have a couple of
> clients who
> are 'in bed' with Mickeysoft. I used Turbo Pascal since version 1, and
> Delphi too. Borland has always made good stuff (except OWL - that stunk!).

       Hehe, OWL, tried learning that a few years ago, gave up after a few weeks,
I don't know WHAT they were thinking! :) But then, compared to MFC... TTYL

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2003\06\25@211940 by Bob Ammerman

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> > Yep, BC builder is good stuff. Unfortunately I have a couple of
> > clients who
> > are 'in bed' with Mickeysoft. I used Turbo Pascal since version 1, and
> > Delphi too. Borland has always made good stuff (except OWL - that
stunk!).
>
>         Hehe, OWL, tried learning that a few years ago, gave up after a
few weeks,
> I don't know WHAT they were thinking! :) But then, compared to MFC... TTYL

Actually, I've grown to really enjoy MFC. A _very_ steep learning curve, but
after a few years (not weeks) of headbanging it really does make quite a bit
of sense.

btw: ATL is really a slick and powerful design.

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2003\06\25@220136 by Herbert Graf

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> > > Yep, BC builder is good stuff. Unfortunately I have a couple of
> > > clients who
> > > are 'in bed' with Mickeysoft. I used Turbo Pascal since version 1, and
> > > Delphi too. Borland has always made good stuff (except OWL - that
> stunk!).
> >
> >         Hehe, OWL, tried learning that a few years ago, gave up after a
> few weeks,
> > I don't know WHAT they were thinking! :) But then, compared to
> MFC... TTYL
>
> Actually, I've grown to really enjoy MFC. A _very_ steep learning
> curve, but
> after a few years (not weeks) of headbanging it really does make
> quite a bit
> of sense.

       Really? Well, I gave up on OWL, and it didn't take long for me to decide to
do the same with MFC... then I found Builder and I haven't looked back! :)
TTYL

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2003\06\26@005953 by Peter L. Peres

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>>So Bob, what would you suggest are the 'best' suited domains
>>for each of the above development environments? Why?
>
>One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
>extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the user windows,
>and using VC++ for the deep down code.

??!! The GUI builder part is almost the same between the two ?! Why would
anyone do such a thing ?

Peter

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2003\06\26@012911 by Herbert Graf

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face
> >>So Bob, what would you suggest are the 'best' suited domains
> >>for each of the above development environments? Why?
> >
> >One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
> >extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the user windows,
> >and using VC++ for the deep down code.
>
> ??!! The GUI builder part is almost the same between the two ?! Why would
> anyone do such a thing ?

       Because older versions of VC++ didn't have the "visual" support that VB
did, in the latest version of VS all supported languages have basically the
same "visual" tools, and in fact all compile down to the same "intermediate"
code. TTYL

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2003\06\26@093258 by Bob Ammerman

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> >One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
> >extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the user windows,
> >and using VC++ for the deep down code.
>
> ??!! The GUI builder part is almost the same between the two ?! Why would
> anyone do such a thing ?
>
> Peter

I beg to differ. The MFC based GUI stuff in C++ is _very_ different from
that in VB. VB hides a lot of the Windows details from you, MFC is much
closer to the raw API.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2003\06\26@093259 by Bob Ammerman

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Never mind... I guess you are talking about Visual Studio .NET

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

----- Original Message -----
From: "Herbert Graf" <EraseMEmailinglistspamFARCITE.NET>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [OT]: My version of visual programming


> > >>So Bob, what would you suggest are the 'best' suited domains
> > >>for each of the above development environments? Why?
> > >
> > >One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
> > >extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the user
windows,
> > >and using VC++ for the deep down code.
> >
> > ??!! The GUI builder part is almost the same between the two ?! Why
would
> > anyone do such a thing ?
>
>         Because older versions of VC++ didn't have the "visual" support
that VB
> did, in the latest version of VS all supported languages have basically
the
> same "visual" tools, and in fact all compile down to the same
"intermediate"
> code. TTYL
>
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2003\06\26@124744 by Herbert Graf

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> > >One of the reasons for using VB is it makes the display side of things
> > >extremely easy. I have heard of developers using VB for the
> user windows,
> > >and using VC++ for the deep down code.
> >
> > ??!! The GUI builder part is almost the same between the two ?!
> Why would
> > anyone do such a thing ?
> >
> > Peter
>
> I beg to differ. The MFC based GUI stuff in C++ is _very_ different from
> that in VB. VB hides a lot of the Windows details from you, MFC is much
> closer to the raw API.

       That used to be the case Bob, no longer, as of the latest VS (I don't know
about earlier versions) all supported languages have basically the same
visual "interface". TTYL

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2003\06\27@034553 by Alan B. Pearce

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>That used to be the case Bob, no longer, as of the latest VS (I don't know
>about earlier versions) all supported languages have basically the same
>visual "interface". TTYL

Oh you mean M$ has finally caught up with Borland, who have been doing this
for years :))))

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2003\06\27@041543 by Peter L. Peres

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>> ??!! The GUI builder part is almost the same between the two ?! Why
>> would anyone do such a thing ?
>
> I beg to differ. The MFC based GUI stuff in C++ is _very_ different from
> that in VB. VB hides a lot of the Windows details from you, MFC is much
> closer to the raw API.

Ah. In Borland C Builder/Delphi the GUI builder is almost identical.

Peter

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2003\06\27@112554 by Herbert Graf

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> >That used to be the case Bob, no longer, as of the latest VS (I
> don't know
> >about earlier versions) all supported languages have basically the same
> >visual "interface". TTYL
>
> Oh you mean M$ has finally caught up with Borland, who have been
> doing this
> for years :))))

       Yup. Personally I don't think Microsoft COULDN'T do it, I think they just
wanted developers sticking with VB, C is much too portable for Microsoft's
taste. But then they started to see developers not so happy any more with
the status quo and therefore introduced the visual development with all
supported languages. Just my conspiracy theory, but I can't really think of
another reason of why it took them so long. TTYL

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