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'[OT]: EE of the third wolrd...'
2003\05\31@231029 by Carlos Marcano

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Hi all,

I recently finished my studies and I graded as an Electronics Eng. After a
5 complete years of study and hard work I got finished my primary goal. I
took all posible classes, made thousands of practices, built tons of
circuits (for classes, for personal use and for fun!) and pass all the
required tests. Now I have to deal with the working field and I have to say
I am somehiw dissapointed. I live in a small South American country called
Venezuela. Our country is incredible beautifull, extremely rich (in
oil -huge amounts of oil- , aluminun, iron, even gold) but we have had the
WORST governments for the last 100 years. These days there is a 25%
unemployment rate ( 6.250.000 of 25.000.000 people) and growing. I have been
trying to make job contacts TWO years before I finished but everything is
useless. I have good grades, lot of developing experience (mostly by myself
I admit), I speak two languages (a plus here in my country), I´m a fast
learner and I love my career, but the market is pretty bad and I think it
will get worse. How were your experiences (for people in non-first world
countries)? What do you think about this (for everyone)? What could you
advice to me? Sorry for bringing this topic on the list but I really needed
to talk about it....

*Carlos*

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2003\05\31@234800 by Bob Axtell

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Well, first, ALL governments are bad. Its in their nature. I'd like to reign ours
in some, too. A governent is like a fire- it can warm you, provide some light on a dark night, and scare away the wild animals- but unless CAREFULLY watched, it can also
burn down your forest, your house, and everybody in it. From time to time, people have to band together, put out the fire, and rebuild the forest. That's what history teaches SO well. And, sadly, evil people are drawn to government by the intoxication of power, so can't be trusted.

Now, about a job. Of course you have to have money, but engineering will never make you rich.

Most of us won't talk about it, but in truth, our profession is an honorable calling. Our designs cause our companies to survive or fail; you can't talk or "spin" your way out of a bad design, you have to FIX it. When every department has generated their excuses, guess which one hasn't any? (I have a marble sign on my desk that says "THE BUCK STOPS HERE', because it does.) It is not a job for the faint of heart, for sometimes many hours are spent before the proper design comes into being. It is an art form, pure and simple, because there are millions of ways to construct an electronic design that will sorta work, but some are better and work well, and a FEW- a VERY few- are brilliant. I wouldn't do anything else but be an electronics engineer..(Secretly, I always wanted to be a gynacologist.).

Hang in there. Things are beginning to improve here, albeit slowly. The world has been hit by a series of blows, 911 and the stock market being two important ones. I happen
to know that Venezuela's phone company was going to design its own switch gear about 2 years ago. Have you talked to them? More than 50 PCB different designs.

Actually, bilingual engineers are hard to find. You might be able to get a job selling for US or Japanese high tech companies down there.

And, GOOD LUCK!

--Bob

At 11:20 PM 5/31/2003 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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'[OT]: EE of the third wolrd...'
2003\06\01@003222 by Herbert Graf
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{Quote hidden}

       Well I'm from what most would consider a first world country (Canada) and
am pretty much in the same boat, the market right now is just really bad for
EEs. TTYL

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2003\06\01@003347 by Carlos Marcano

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Bob wrote:


> Well, first, ALL governments are bad. Its in their nature. I'd like to
> reign ours
> in some, too. A governent is like a fire- it can warm you, provide some
> light on a dark night, and scare away the wild animals- but unless
> CAREFULLY watched, it can also
> burn down your forest, your house, and everybody in it. From time to time,
> people have to band together, put out the fire, and rebuild the forest.
> That's what history teaches SO well. And, sadly, evil people are drawn to
> government by the intoxication of power, so can't be trusted.

Too damn right!

> Now, about a job. Of course you have to have money, but engineering will
> never make you rich.

I am really aware of that...
>
> Most of us won't talk about it, but in truth, our profession is an
> honorable calling. Our designs cause our companies to survive or fail; you
> can't talk or "spin" your way out of a bad design, you have to FIX it.
When
> every department has generated their excuses, guess which one hasn't any?
> (I have a marble sign on my desk that says "THE BUCK STOPS HERE', because
> it does.) It is not a job for the faint of heart, for sometimes many hours
> are spent before the proper design comes into being. It is an art form,
> pure and simple, because there are millions of ways to construct an
> electronic design that will sorta work, but some are better and work well,
> and a FEW- a VERY few- are brilliant. I wouldn't do anything else but be
an
> electronics engineer..(Secretly, I always wanted to be a gynacologist.).

Like almost every living man! ;)


> Hang in there. Things are beginning to improve here, albeit slowly. The
> world has been hit by a series of blows, 911 and the stock market being
two
> important ones. I happen
> to know that Venezuela's phone company was going to design its own switch
> gear about 2 years ago. Have you talked to them? More than 50 PCB
different
> designs.

That didn´t happen. We got in to the slow lane since we got our last
government and since
a couple of years ago almost all the investments (private and public) has
gone to a minimum.
Our first industry, PDVSA -our state oil company -, has been reduced. The
basic industries are
cutting job positions every day. We have a very unstable political
situation. In two years there had
been two big general strikes, the last one from December 2002 to February
2003. Government
is fighting with the private investors, and we, the professional labor
force, are suffering the consecuences.



> Actually, bilingual engineers are hard to find. You might be able to get a
> job selling for US or Japanese high tech companies down there.
>
I am considering really seriously to travel to another country, maybe
Australia or Spain.
Lots of young guys and not so young people are leaving Venezuela searching
for better
oportunities in any other country. If it wasn´t so difficult I would love to
go to U.S.A. or
Canada. I don´t know maybe I should just wait a while and keep trying here.

> And, GOOD LUCK!
>
> --Bob
>

Thanks Bob! The same to you!

*Carlos*


> At 11:20 PM 5/31/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi all,
> >
> >  I recently finished my studies and I graded as an Electronics Eng.
After a
> >5 complete years of study and hard work I got finished my primary goal. I
> >took all posible classes, made thousands of practices, built tons of
> >circuits (for classes, for personal use and for fun!) and pass all the
> >required tests. Now I have to deal with the working field and I have to
say
> >I am somehiw dissapointed. I live in a small South American country
called
> >Venezuela. Our country is incredible beautifull, extremely rich (in
> >oil -huge amounts of oil- , aluminun, iron, even gold) but we have had
the
> >WORST governments for the last 100 years. These days there is a 25%
> >unemployment rate ( 6.250.000 of 25.000.000 people) and growing. I have
been
> >trying to make job contacts TWO years before I finished but everything is
> >useless. I have good grades, lot of developing experience (mostly by
myself
> >I admit), I speak two languages (a plus here in my country), I´m a fast
> >learner and I love my career, but the market is pretty bad and I think it
> >will get worse. How were your experiences (for people in non-first world
> >countries)? What do you think about this (for everyone)? What could you
> >advice to me? Sorry for bringing this topic on the list but I really
needed
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2003\06\01@004407 by Carlos Marcano

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Herbert wrote:

>
>         Well I'm from what most would consider a first world country
(Canada) and
> am pretty much in the same boat, the market right now is just really bad
for
> EEs. TTYL

Sorry to hear that... I thought maybe my fate could change going north....
Hope things change soon...

*Carlos*

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2003\06\01@030126 by Mike Singer

picon face
Carlos Marcano wrote:
>  I recently finished my studies and I graded as an
> Electronics Eng. After a 5 complete years of study
> and hard work I got finished my primary goal. I took
> all posible classes, made thousands of practices,
> built tons of circuits (for classes, for personal
> use and for fun!) and pass all the required tests.
> Now I have to deal with the working field and I have
> to say I am somehiw dissapointed. I live in a small
> South American country called Venezuela...

Better switch to Software Eng.
Administrating, supporting, developing ...
All the things that are in a whirl around databases
and Internet.

> ...but we have had the WORST governments for the last
> 100 years.

He, he, you didn't see our guys.

> How were your experiences (for people in non-first
> world countries)? What do you think about this (for
> everyone)? What could you advice to me?

Again, drop EE and start with software.


Mike.
Ukraine.

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2003\06\01@034556 by Picdude

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Carlos,

First, I am originally from a third-world country (possibly 4th? :-) right next door to you ... Trinidad.  In fact, if one stands at the southwest-most corner of Trinidad, we can see Venezuela.  But I'm sure we don't have the problems your gov't has, and have only about 5% of your total population.

I can sum up my path with 2 things ... planning and being flexible.  For the first, realizing that there was little if any potential for electronics on the small island, I took the business track, owned/ran a store, etc.  But later I realized it was not for me, and decided that college in the US would get me back on my dream track, albeit with a little more difficulty.  Foreigners have an additional battle of immigration and those who were educated in foreign countries also have to prove the quality of their education.  Halfway during that, I realized that software had more opportunity than hardware, so I re-adjusted a bit, and the next dozen years of my life has been software and project-management.

The questions are ... when you first started your electronics education, what were your plans, and were they realistic, or over-optimistic?  Did you have a backup plan?  Two years ago, when you started looking and found the job prospects hopeless, did you consider adjusting or expanding your skills into other areas?  The point here is that you should have opened up your range of opportunities.  Your first job or two or more may not be what you ideally want, but may be a foot in the door of a company you'd like to work for.  You could later work on getting into the ideal position.

At this point, those options still exist ... think about what you'd ideally like to do, what you can bear, what you can achieve, and try to get into those positions directly OR indirectly.  But choose positions in which you know you will succeed.  Would you consider moving to another country?  Even for a short time to get some experience.  The job-market in the US is really poor as well right now (I've also been unemployed for some time), but if you don't mind moving to countries that have a bigger scope for electronics, you will have more options.  In this market, having a job is not solely about your skills/experience, but also about being in the right place at the right time.  The more options you give yourself, the better your chance of getting "picked".  Also, try getting some certifications.  Some companies/people respect them and others don't.  But I don't think that I have ever seen it hurt anyone.  Be very flexible until you can claim to have the skills & experience to command what *you* want.

Cheers,
-Neil.



On Saturday 31 May 2003 22:20, Carlos Marcano scribbled:
{Quote hidden}

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2003\06\01@114734 by Carlos Marcano

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   Actually I have been doing some working (freelance) programming in
Visual Basic.

I also did some LabView programming this year, but only short term jobs.

I guess I had too big expectations, but since last year I am doing
any kind of work so that isn´t an issue for me now. Thanx for the ideas...

*Carlos*

{Original Message removed}

2003\06\01@114743 by Carlos Marcano

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Neil wrote:

> Carlos,
>
> First, I am originally from a third-world country (possibly 4th? :-) right
> next door to you ... Trinidad.  In fact, if one stands at the
southwest-most
> corner of Trinidad, we can see Venezuela.  But I'm sure we don't have the
> problems your gov't has, and have only about 5% of your total population.
>

Ýou can bet on that!

> I can sum up my path with 2 things ... planning and being flexible.  For
the
> first, realizing that there was little if any potential for electronics on
> the small island, I took the business track, owned/ran a store, etc.  But
> later I realized it was not for me, and decided that college in the US
would
> get me back on my dream track, albeit with a little more difficulty.
> Foreigners have an additional battle of immigration and those who were
> educated in foreign countries also have to prove the quality of their
> education.  Halfway during that, I realized that software had more
> opportunity than hardware, so I re-adjusted a bit, and the next dozen
years
> of my life has been software and project-management.

I am really considering that too...
>
> The questions are ... when you first started your electronics education,
what
> were your plans, and were they realistic, or over-optimistic?  Did you
have a
> backup plan?  Two years ago, when you started looking and found the job
> prospects hopeless, did you consider adjusting or expanding your skills
into
> other areas?  The point here is that you should have opened up your range
of
> opportunities.  Your first job or two or more may not be what you ideally
> want, but may be a foot in the door of a company you'd like to work for.
You
> could later work on getting into the ideal position.

I agree: I was over-optimistic. When I began studying there were thousands
of opportunities
but now things changed too much... I´d say I had a combination of High
expectations - Bad luck!


>
> At this point, those options still exist ... think about what you'd
ideally
> like to do, what you can bear, what you can achieve, and try to get into
> those positions directly OR indirectly.  But choose positions in which you
> know you will succeed.  Would you consider moving to another country?
Even
> for a short time to get some experience.  The job-market in the US is
really
> poor as well right now (I've also been unemployed for some time), but if
you
> don't mind moving to countries that have a bigger scope for electronics,
you
> will have more options.  In this market, having a job is not solely about
> your skills/experience, but also about being in the right place at the
right
> time.  The more options you give yourself, the better your chance of
getting
> "picked".  Also, try getting some certifications.  Some companies/people
> respect them and others don't.  But I don't think that I have ever seen it
> hurt anyone.  Be very flexible until you can claim to have the skills &
> experience to command what *you* want.

I see your point and I am learning from that, Thanks for the advices!

*Carlos*


>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
> On Saturday 31 May 2003 22:20, Carlos Marcano scribbled:
> > Hi all,
> >
> >  I recently finished my studies and I graded as an Electronics Eng.
After a
> > 5 complete years of study and hard work I got finished my primary goal.
I
> > took all posible classes, made thousands of practices, built tons of
> > circuits (for classes, for personal use and for fun!) and pass all the
> > required tests. Now I have to deal with the working field and I have to
say
> > I am somehiw dissapointed. I live in a small South American country
called
> > Venezuela. Our country is incredible beautifull, extremely rich (in
> > oil -huge amounts of oil- , aluminun, iron, even gold) but we have had
the
> > WORST governments for the last 100 years. These days there is a 25%
> > unemployment rate ( 6.250.000 of 25.000.000 people) and growing. I have
> > been trying to make job contacts TWO years before I finished but
everything
> > is useless. I have good grades, lot of developing experience (mostly by
> > myself I admit), I speak two languages (a plus here in my country), I´m
a
> > fast learner and I love my career, but the market is pretty bad and I
think
> > it will get worse. How were your experiences (for people in non-first
world
> > countries)? What do you think about this (for everyone)? What could you
> > advice to me? Sorry for bringing this topic on the list but I really
needed
> > to talk about it....
> >
> > *Carlos*
>
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2003\06\01@181032 by Tal

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Carlos,

I don't know what are the high tech opportunities in your country but if
you think that you hit a dead end, my advise for you would be to shop
for better locations/countries.
Note however that these days the economy is bad is many countries and
even some 'first world' high tech areas suffer from unemployment (for
example, here at Silicon Valley).

Tal


> {Original Message removed}

2003\06\02@143510 by Carlos Marcano

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I agree with you Tal. I am beginning to make plans for doing that.

Thanks for the advice,

*Carlos*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tal" <talspamspam_OUTZAPTA.COM>
To: <@spam@PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: EE of the third wolrd...


{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}

2003\06\02@154959 by Mike Singer

picon face
Carlos Marcano wrote:
> I agree with you Tal. I am beginning to make plans for doing that.
...
> From: "Tal" <KILLspamtalKILLspamspamZAPTA.COM>
> > Carlos,
> > I don't know what are the high tech opportunities in your
> > country but if you think that you hit a dead end, my advise
> > for you would be to shop for better locations/countries.


Bob Dylan wrote in 1967:
"The Ballad Of Frankie Lee And Judas Priest"


Well, the moral of the story,

The moral of this song,

Is simply that one should never be

Where one does not belong.

So when you see your neighbor carryin' somethin',

Help him with his load,

And don't go mistaking Paradise

For that home across the road.








----------------------------------
Mike :-)

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2003\06\02@160446 by Carlos Marcano

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Despite my poor english, I think I got the point, Mike!  :)

Regards,

*Carlos*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Singer" <RemoveMEmsingerTakeThisOuTspamPOLUOSTROV.NET>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [OT]: EE of the third wolrd...


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2003\06\02@181944 by Dennis Crawley

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Brain Drain!
What happens with EE is that they were taught to No-Reinvent-the-wheel, or
more modern, looks it first on google.

I don't really know in what part of the studies theirs teachers "nail" the
idea EE are losers.
I feel the idea: "oh! there are so many EE...!, or "I'm too valuable for
this "Sudaca" (southern pejorative) country. I'd better go to... Qatar".;).
or "...this politicians..." we all know that sudamerica politicians are IMF
puppets. They do what IMF tells them to do,... and change their way of live
obviously.

If your product rocks, some protection policy appears in the name of some
patent in USA. or better, in the name of national security, for example the
argentine "Condor" marine project.

The point is EE are chickens. They are afraid of so many things.
On the other hand their income expectancy is too high. Is money all about?
Make History, stay in home, contact EE friends, ask for help outside, and
kick off the patent issue.
Re invents the wheel if necessary!

Dennis Crawley
Argentina.
p.s.: 5th world. I was a class media, now I became 1/16! Many thanks to the
National Bank of Boston.
I also have the temptation to migrate to Scotland to be an apple
collector...


{Original Message removed}

2003\06\02@182620 by Mauricio Jancic

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Wise words my dear Sudaca frien!

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos
(54) 11 4542 3519
Republica Argentina
Microchip Consultant Program Member


{Original Message removed}

2003\06\03@110516 by Tal

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Hi Carlos,

I did it myself and it worked for me.

Good luck,

Tal

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