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PICList Thread
'[EE] soldering station'
2006\09\01@170500 by GlennM

picon face
Hello,

I'm finally getting around to buying a soldering station. My old Weller has
served me well but the time has come to move on to something more versatile
and with better temperature control.

My question concerns the selection of soldering tips that are most useful
for a hobbyist. I'll be doing mostly through-hole soldering for now, but I
will also be working with SMD components. The station comes with a 0.8mm
conical tip. I am thinking that a long, fine conical tip, ~0.5mm would be
right for SMD work with multi-pin devices, and probably also a 1.6mm chisel
tip for the occasional need to solder connectors and so forth. Sound good?

This station also accepts SMD tweezers with heated tips. Is there actually
any advantage to those vs. placing the component with tweezers & soldering
the pads individually?

Thanks for your help,

Glenn Minch

2006\09\01@175519 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> My question concerns the selection of soldering tips that are
> most useful for a hobbyist.

I have only a simple 0.8mm tip on my (3) soldering irons. Serves me well
for TH and SMD. When SMD pins are too fine pitched I apply a blob of
solder and reomve the excess with solder wick. IME a good maginifier is
more important that a fine tip.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\02@013706 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 9/2/06, GlennM <spam_OUTthe_euphemismTakeThisOuTspamyahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm finally getting around to buying a soldering station. My old Weller has
> served me well but the time has come to move on to something more versatile
> and with better temperature control.
>
> My question concerns the selection of soldering tips that are most useful
> for a hobbyist. I'll be doing mostly through-hole soldering for now, but I
> will also be working with SMD components. The station comes with a 0.8mm
> conical tip. I am thinking that a long, fine conical tip, ~0.5mm would be
> right for SMD work with multi-pin devices, and probably also a 1.6mm chisel
> tip for the occasional need to solder connectors and so forth. Sound good?


This one is quite good:

http://www.web-tronics.com/prresywsuc.html
I've worked with one in the US, a little bit expensive...

Vasile

2006\09\02@020102 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
I've been using the Aoyue 968 SMD rework station. It has a digitally
controlled soldering iron and hot air rework gun with a smoke
absorber. I've had no problems with it to date and for the price you
can't go wrong.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000HDG0AO?v=glance

Cheers,
Zik

On 9/2/06, Vasile Surducan <.....piclist9KILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\09\02@085442 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Zik,

On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 16:01:01 +1000, Zik Saleeba wrote:

> I've been using the Aoyue 968 SMD rework station. It has a digitally
> controlled soldering iron and hot air rework gun with a smoke
> absorber. I've had no problems with it to date and for the price you
> can't go wrong.

I have one as well, and I agree, it does a good job.  I like the clever way a single air pump acts as a smoke extractor when using the iron, and as the
hot air supply for the rework "pen".  I haven't found a source of bits for the iron locally, though.  Anyone know if it uses the same pattern as any of
the better-known makes?

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000HDG0AO?v=glance

Wow, that price is excellent!  I had to pay rather a lot more than this for a 230V version, from Germany.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\02@093830 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
> I have one as well, and I agree, it does a good job.  I like the clever way a single air pump acts as a smoke extractor when using the iron, and as the
> hot air supply for the rework "pen".  I haven't found a source of bits for the iron locally, though.  Anyone know if it uses the same pattern as any of
> the better-known makes?

I've heard the Aoyue soldering stations are direct copies of some of Haako's
machines - it might be worth seeing if any of the Haako solder stations look
similar or take similar parts.
Not sure where you'd get air pumps and heating elements from, but you should
be able to get hot air nozzles and soldering iron tips easily enough.

I've been looking into getting one of the 968 solder stations, but for now my
Antex 660TC is fine. Plenty of power (50W) too, so it's good for replacing
capacitors on motherboards.

> Wow, that price is excellent!  I had to pay rather a lot more than this for
> a 230V version, from Germany.

Just out of curiosity, did you buy it from an eBay seller?

--
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.....philpemKILLspamspam.....dsl.pipex.com         | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G

2006\09\02@100905 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Phil,

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:39:23 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote:

> Howard Winter wrote:
> > I have one as well, and I agree, it does a good job.  I like the clever way a single air pump acts as a smoke extractor when using the iron, and as
the
> > hot air supply for the rework "pen".  I haven't found a source of bits for the iron locally, though.  Anyone know if it uses the same pattern as any
of
> > the better-known makes?
>
> I've heard the Aoyue soldering stations are direct copies of some of Haako's
> machines - it might be worth seeing if any of the Haako solder stations look
> similar or take similar parts.
> Not sure where you'd get air pumps and heating elements from, but you should
> be able to get hot air nozzles and soldering iron tips easily enough.

Hopefully more expensive parts won't be needed!  :-)  Thanks for the tip - I'll look at Haako stuff.  However I know they sell it in Fry's in California,
but I don't know of anyone here in Hertfordshire!

> I've been looking into getting one of the 968 solder stations, but for now my
> Antex 660TC is fine. Plenty of power (50W) too, so it's good for replacing
> capacitors on motherboards.

The iron that comes with the Aoyue (I wonder how ypu pronounce that?) is pretty powerful, and being able to tweak the temperature at a moment's
notice is handy (previously I used an Antex the same as yours, but the temp. control isn't as easy to tweak).

>  > Wow, that price is excellent!  I had to pay rather a lot more than this for
>  > a 230V version, from Germany.
>
> Just out of curiosity, did you buy it from an eBay seller?

Yes indeed.  I was a bit worried at first because their auctions didn't make it clear exactly what you got (and the photos were stock ones, of an older
version I think) but it turned out OK - I got the iron-holder that incorporates a solder-reel stand, not the one in the photo that doesn't, for example.  I
can't see the seller on eBay at the moment - there are a couple of Brits wanting £140+, and some Chinese/HK selling for a lot less, but shipping
charges can be huge for the latter - and often not mentioned!  I seem to remember paying a total of about £120 including some extra nozzles and
bits, and a vacuum-tweezer.  I haven't used the hot air in anger yet, but the soldering iron/smoke extractor work fine!

I'm wondering if the hot air would be a good idea for soldering some big terminals (Anderson SB50, into which I want to connect 2 x 6mm^2 wires).  I
was thinking of directing the hot air into the open end of the terminal, so it heats it from the inside, then creating a pool of molten solder into which I
can insert the pre-tinned wires.  Trouble is, if it doesn't work I may have lost the terminal, and I don't have any spare...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2006\09\02@101244 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Phil,

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:39:23 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, did you buy it from an eBay seller?

Sorry, in my last I said I couldn't see the seller on eBay, but I didn't notice that it wasn't showing me them all - on clicking the right place I find they
are doing do (at  135 - Euros, in case the symbol doesn't travel).

Cheers,



Howard Winter
St.Albans, England



2006\09\02@131313 by Charles Rogers

flavicon
face
Glenn:
To what station are you referring? ?

CR


> Hello,
>
> I'm finally getting around to buying a soldering station. My old Weller
has
> served me well but the time has come to move on to something more
versatile
> and with better temperature control.
>
>
>  The station comes with a 0.8mm
> conical tip. I am thinking that a long, fine conical tip, ~0.5mm would be
> right for SMD work with multi-pin devices, and probably also a 1.6mm
chisel
{Quote hidden}

2006\09\02@204609 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
Howard Winter wrote:
>
> I haven't found a source of bits for the iron locally, though.  Anyone know if it
> uses the same pattern as any of the better-known makes?

I bought mine from a guy who operates from Sydney (I'm in Melbourne).
He says that he stocks all the supplies although I haven't needed
order any yet.

That Amazon ad claims "Compatible with many nozzle types from all
manufacturers" which is hopeful.

On 9/2/06, Philip Pemberton <EraseMEphilpemspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdsl.pipex.com> wrote to Howard:
>
> Just out of curiosity, did you buy it from an eBay seller?

I bought mine from an eBay seller and it worked out very well. I ended
up paying AU$220 for a 240V model.

Cheers,
Zik

2006\09\03@022037 by GlennM

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesspamspam_OUTmit.edu
> [@spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu] On Behalf Of Vasile Surducan
> This one is quite good:
>
> http://www.web-tronics.com/prresywsuc.html
> I've worked with one in the US, a little bit expensive...
>

That is nice, as is the Aoyue - but both cost more than I am prepared to
spend at the moment. I am a hobbyist, not a pro nor even a "serious"
amateur. I have a couple of PIC projects in mind, and I solder a kit every
now and then. Maybe 1-2x per year, on average, plus miscellaneous use. I
think I've done a decent job using a 30W iron, fine solder, a flux pen, and
"Soder-Wick" braid. I want more control over the iron temperature.

Is hot air capability mostly a desoldering aid? Is it something I actually
need to do limited work with SMDs? If I really do need hot air to
effectively work with the larger SMDs then I'll (reluctantly) consider a
more expensive solution.

The station I have in mind is this one:
http://www.web-tronics.com/lesostwdic.html.

--- Glenn M


2006\09\03@113247 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
On 9/3/06, GlennM <KILLspamthe_euphemismKILLspamspamyahoo.com> wrote:
> The station I have in mind is this one:
> http://www.web-tronics.com/lesostwdic.html.

If you're looking to spend around $60, call up Bruce Sander at EAE
Sales (http://www.eaesales.com). He sells refurbished Edsyn " 951SX
Loner" models for that price. I have one and I like it. I also like
the fact that since they're a name brand (though perhaps not as big as
Weller, Metcal - er...Oki, etc) I can get tips from multiple sources.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2006\09\04@034320 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>This station also accepts SMD tweezers with heated tips.
>Is there actually any advantage to those vs. placing the
>component with tweezers & soldering the pads individually?

It is an advantage when removing two terminal devices like resistors,
capacitors and diodes. You are heating both ends at once, and grip the
component with the tweezers to lift it.

2006\09\04@041546 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Is hot air capability mostly a desoldering aid?

Essentially Yes.

>Is it something I actually need to do limited work with
>SMDs? If I really do need hot air to effectively work
>with the larger SMDs then I'll (reluctantly) consider a
>more expensive solution.

Well, I guess the answer to that depends on how many ICs you intend to
remove. That is the major area where hot air is useful. Even for an SO-8 IC,
hot air is the easiest way to remove the chip.

The alternative is to unsolder each lead individually and lift it up with a
fine scalpel blade, so it is clear of the pad, while you do the next one ...
and so on until you have done them all. This can get extremely tedious when
doing larger chips. Using hot air to heat all the pins at once makes the job
a lot easier.

2006\09\04@045044 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>>Is hot air capability mostly a desoldering aid?
> Essentially Yes.

Agreed. I have a few soldering irons and a hot-air station. I use the
hot-air only for desoldering. I bought it specifically for that purpose.


>>Is it something I actually need to do limited work with
>>SMDs?

If limited does not include de-soldering you don't need it. If it
includes de-soldering anything with more than 3 leads you definitely
need it. But you might get by with a paint stripper and an improvised
nozzle.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\04@050411 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 9/4/06, Alan B. Pearce <RemoveMEA.B.PearceTakeThisOuTspamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
> >Is hot air capability mostly a desoldering aid?
>
> Essentially Yes.
>
> >Is it something I actually need to do limited work with
> >SMDs? If I really do need hot air to effectively work
> >with the larger SMDs then I'll (reluctantly) consider a
> >more expensive solution.
>
> Well, I guess the answer to that depends on how many ICs you intend to
> remove. That is the major area where hot air is useful. Even for an SO-8 IC,
> hot air is the easiest way to remove the chip.
>
> The alternative is to unsolder each lead individually and lift it up with a
> fine scalpel blade, so it is clear of the pad, while you do the next one ...
> and so on until you have done them all. This can get extremely tedious when
> doing larger chips. Using hot air to heat all the pins at once makes the job
> a lot easier.
>

There is a better alternative than lifting pins individually:  Make a
large solder blob that covers all the pins, then hold the board at an
angle and slide the iron around the pins until the solder is molten on
all of them at the same time, at which time the chip falls off the
board.  Clean up the board with desoldering braid, and the chip with
flux.  This method is faster and less likely to damage the chip or the
board.  But hot air is best.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2006\09\04@054234 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>There is a better alternative than lifting pins individually:
>Make a large solder blob that covers all the pins, then hold
>the board at an angle and slide the iron around the pins until
>the solder is molten on all of them at the same time, at which
>time the chip falls off the board.

I would not like to try this with a 44 pin or larger chip, unless I was not
wishing to save the PCB. The amount of heat required would soon cause pad
lifting.

>Clean up the board with desoldering braid, and the chip with flux.

This is essential even for two or three pin devices like r,c, diodes and
transistors.

>This method is faster and less likely to damage the chip or the
>board.  But hot air is best.

Hot air is definitely the best, but large chips are best done with the
appropriate air deflectors/guides like Wouter mentioned. I haven't tried
using a paint stripper, and suspect that it would need some care as there is
no heat control, so you don't know what temperature the air is. Maybe a PIC
project here to control the temperature ...

2006\09\04@164246 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 9/4/06, Alan B. Pearce <spamBeGoneA.B.PearcespamBeGonespamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
> >There is a better alternative than lifting pins individually:
> >Make a large solder blob that covers all the pins, then hold
> >the board at an angle and slide the iron around the pins until
> >the solder is molten on all of them at the same time, at which
> >time the chip falls off the board.
>
> I would not like to try this with a 44 pin or larger chip, unless I was not
> wishing to save the PCB. The amount of heat required would soon cause pad
> lifting.
>

I've done it with 44-pin parts, without damaging the board.  You make
a solder blob down the side of each row of pins, then run the iron in
a circle around the perimeter of the chip until everything melts.  The
trick to avoid lifting traces is to apply no force at all.  Let the
chip fall by gravity.

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2006\09\04@223740 by John Chung

picon face
Wouter,

>From your experience is SMT soldering just perfect
with hot-air station?

John

--- Wouter van Ooijen <TakeThisOuTwouterEraseMEspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\09\05@031335 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 9/5/06, John Chung <RemoveMEkravnusspamTakeThisOuTyahoo.com> wrote:
> Wouter,
>
> >From your experience is SMT soldering just perfect
> with hot-air station?


  No, of course. Even desoldering could be a pain.
But what alternative do you have with an exposed pad component in 48TQFP ?

Vasile

2006\09\05@032342 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
John, you should try to edit your responses to make it clear which text
is the orignal and which is yours. I think you were asking me

> From your experience is SMT soldering just perfect
> with hot-air station?

if so, my answer is: no idea, I use my hot-air *only* for removing
things.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\09\05@041449 by John Chung

picon face
Thanks Wouter and Vasile.

Regards,
John

>
> if so, my answer is: no idea, I use my hot-air
> *only* for removing
> things.
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>


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2006\09\05@222336 by GlennM

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspam.....mit.edu
> [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu] On Behalf Of Alan B. Pearce
>
> >Is hot air capability mostly a desoldering aid?
>
> Essentially Yes.
>

After considering the comments here and looking into it a bit further on my
own, it seems to me that the hot air capability is a generally useful thing
to have. Actually, desoldering is often one of the most frustrating tasks so
anything which would make it easier has got to be good. I think I'll upgrade
my selection to either the Auyoe (pushing the $ limit there) or one of the
stations that Circuit Specialists has.

Thanks for the comments and advice.

---Glenn M.

2006\09\06@000023 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 9/5/06, Wouter van Ooijen <RemoveMEwouterEraseMEspamEraseMEvoti.nl> wrote:
> > From your experience is SMT soldering just perfect
> > with hot-air station?

I do not think so. You need practise. Some of the production
girls are really good at soldering using normal soldering
stations (Hakko or Weller). They can remove and solder
many kinds of components without using any hot air...

> if so, my answer is: no idea, I use my hot-air *only* for removing
> things.
>

Interesting. I used hot air to blow aways all kind of components
but I also used it to solder some QFN parts (I will say it is
quite difficult so no guarantee of success).

I personally do like to use hot air to remove single IC
component because of the density of the board. (I do not like to
blow the surrounding components away.

I used the method of Mark Rages most of the time for SMD
components. Long time ago I was using medical needles
for DIP components removing (so that the IC will still be okay).
Nowadays, I do not have the luxury to work with large components
any more. However most likely I will simple cut the legs and throw
the IC away if I need to deal with this situation. I might try to use
solder wick if the IC is really expensive.

Regards,
Xiaofan

2006\09\06@040835 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Interesting. I used hot air to blow aways all kind of
>components but I also used it to solder some QFN parts
>(I will say it is quite difficult so no guarantee of success).

If going this route, one would normally use an oven for the soldering
process, rather than hot air. The component then doesn't get blown around
the board, and all pins get heated at once.

2006\09\06@042509 by John Chung

picon face
Looks like I have to *practice* delicate work......
The one thing I found it quite difficult was soldering
intel flash memory from and back to the
motherboard...... I can easily SIT for an hour to
complete the work if I had the *right* soldering bit.

John

--- Xiaofan Chen <RemoveMExiaofancspam_OUTspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2006\09\06@042714 by John Chung

picon face
How does the manufacturer get such nice soldering when
there is SMT and pin hole? A very big oven I assume.

John

--- "Alan B. Pearce" <EraseMEA.B.PearcespamspamspamBeGonerl.ac.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\09\06@043916 by Mark Rages

face picon face
On 9/6/06, John Chung <RemoveMEkravnusKILLspamspamyahoo.com> wrote:
> Looks like I have to *practice* delicate work......
> The one thing I found it quite difficult was soldering
> intel flash memory from and back to the
> motherboard...... I can easily SIT for an hour to
> complete the work if I had the *right* soldering bit.
>
> John
>

Here's a video that shows how to do it:
http://region.bdmicro.com/smt1.mov

Regards,
Mark
markrages@gmail
--
You think that it is a secret, but it never has been one.
 - fortune cookie

2006\09\06@050459 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 9/6/06, John Chung <kravnusSTOPspamspamspam_OUTyahoo.com> wrote:
> Looks like I have to *practice* delicate work......
> The one thing I found it quite difficult was soldering
> intel flash memory from and back to the
> motherboard...... I can easily SIT for an hour to
> complete the work if I had the *right* soldering bit.

One hour and you complain ?
Try to solder/desolder a TQFP which must run at 5GHz and see how many
times you need to desolder/solder it just to clean the PCB and chip
surfaces...

Vasile

2006\09\06@064713 by John Chung

picon face
WHAT! That simple! I need my eyes checked again. What
kind of pen was he using I want one :D

Thanks Mark. I did not know this method exist.

John

--- Mark Rages <spamBeGonemarkragesSTOPspamspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2006\09\06@084025 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
John Chung wrote:

>> Here's a video that shows how to do it:
>> http://region.bdmicro.com/smt1.mov

> WHAT! That simple! I need my eyes checked again. What kind of pen was he
> using

Yes... Anybody knows what that pen is that they use to fix the chip?

Gerhard

2006\09\06@085438 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Yes... Anybody knows what that pen is that they use to fix the chip?

I didn't think it was any sort of adhesive to fix the chip, I thought it was
a rosin applicator. Note that the operator does a couple of pins on the
corners of two sides to stabilise the chip position before doing whole sides
of pins.

2006\09\06@090549 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamEraseMEmit.edu [@spam@piclist-bounces@spam@spamspam_OUTmit.edu]
>Sent: 06 September 2006 13:55
>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>Subject: Re: [EE] soldering station
>
>
>>Yes... Anybody knows what that pen is that they use to fix the chip?
>
>I didn't think it was any sort of adhesive to fix the chip, I
>thought it was a rosin applicator. Note that the operator does
>a couple of pins on the corners of two sides to stabilise the
>chip position before doing whole sides of pins.

Yep, that simply a flux pen, we use them all the time for product rework and engineering builds.

Regards

Mike

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2006\09\06@091002 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


>-----Original Message-----
>From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu [.....piclist-bouncesspam_OUTspammit.edu]
>Sent: 06 September 2006 13:39
>To: TakeThisOuTpiclist.....spamTakeThisOuTmit.edu
>Subject: Re: [EE] soldering station
>
>
>John Chung wrote:
>
>>> Here's a video that shows how to do it:
>>> http://region.bdmicro.com/smt1.mov
>
>> WHAT! That simple! I need my eyes checked again. What kind
>of pen was
>> he using
>
>Yes... Anybody knows what that pen is that they use to fix the chip?
>
>Gerhard

This is the flux pen we use:

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?sku=500896

Regards

Mike

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2006\09\06@114111 by Rich Mulvey

flavicon
face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>>Yes... Anybody knows what that pen is that they use to fix the chip?
>>    
>>
>
>I didn't think it was any sort of adhesive to fix the chip, I thought it was
>a rosin applicator. Note that the operator does a couple of pins on the
>corners of two sides to stabilise the chip position before doing whole sides
>of pins.
>
>  
>

  Correct.  I usually tack the opposite corners for positioning the
chip - with tinned pads, there's more than enough solder to hold the
chip down in the correct position before you flux all of the leads and
sweep the iron.

  I've found that it doesn't go quite as quickly when you have a board
without pre-tinned pads, but it's still way, way easier than trying to
solder each lead, individually.

- Rich

2006\09\06@120403 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>> Yes... Anybody knows what that pen is that they use to fix the chip?
>
> I didn't think it was any sort of adhesive to fix the chip, I thought it
> was a rosin applicator. Note that the operator does a couple of pins on
> the corners of two sides to stabilise the chip position before doing
> whole sides of pins.

Ah... the "pen" to fix the chip was the soldering iron, used without solder
:)

Gerhard


'[EE] Soldering station'
2010\08\05@165512 by V G
picon face
Hi all,

I don't know if my previous email went through, but I am looking to
buy a good quality soldering station (one that can do hot air rework
would be good) (something like this one:
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=76).

I have never shopped for these things so I don't know what price
ranges to look for and what quality you get for such prices. I also
don't know of any good places to get such a product. Any
recommendations/ideas would be greatly appreciated

2010\08\05@172825 by doug metzler

picon face
Depending on how much hand work you are going to do I would separate my
solder station from my rework station.  probably 90% of my hand-work time is
spent soldering, so I spent the money there:

www.amazon.com/Weller-WESD51-Digital-Soldering-Station/dp/B000ARU9PO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1281043313&sr=8-3
(be *sure* to get the one with the dial temp control and not the one with
the pushbuttons)

and for a rework station I just went with a cheap one:

http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7343

If you're doing through-hole rework there's a better one out there, but for
SMT this one works remarkably well.

DougM

On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:54 PM, V G <TakeThisOuTx.solarwind.xKILLspamspamspamgmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2010\08\06@105846 by doug metzler

picon face
Changing the temp is so much faster - generally I'm soldering SMT parts
first, then I go to the through-hole parts (connectors usually) for which I
want to use a higher temp (higher thermal mass) - the dial is the most
efficient method of getting to the temp I want quickly.

Thanks,

DougM

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Peter Feucht <
.....p.feuchtspamRemoveMEpalmed-medizintechnik.de> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> > --

2010\08\06@112813 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Fri, 6 Aug 2010 07:58:46 -0700, you wrote:

>Changing the temp is so much faster - generally I'm soldering SMT parts
>first, then I go to the through-hole parts (connectors usually) for which I
>want to use a higher temp (higher thermal mass) - the dial is the most
>efficient method of getting to the temp I want quickly.

...or just buy a decent iron like a Metcal that can maintain the temp regardless of load.

2010\08\06@114149 by Jonathan Hallameyer

picon face
>
>
>
>
> ..or just buy a decent iron like a Metcal that can maintain the temp
> regardless of load.
>
>
Sounds ideal, but thermal transfer is limited, so all else the same, you can
only push so many watts  into the joint regardless of soldering iron wattage
and regulation. Easiest way to address this is to bump the temp up, though a
bigger tip often helps if you have wattage to spare, though changing a tip
is often slower then both knobs and pushbuttons :O)
-- Jonathan Hallameye

2010\08\06@120432 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:41:48 -0400, you wrote:

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ..or just buy a decent iron like a Metcal that can maintain the temp
>> regardless of load.
>>
>>
>Sounds ideal, but thermal transfer is limited, so all else the same, you can
>only push so many watts  into the joint regardless of soldering iron wattage
>and regulation. Easiest way to address this is to bump the temp up, though a
>bigger tip often helps if you have wattage to spare, though changing a tip
>is often slower then both knobs and pushbuttons :O)
>--
The point is that Metcal has such tight coupling between heat source, tip and control that it _can_
rapidly pump enough heat into any likely load without temperature overshoot..  You can easily do
stuff like soldering TO220 tabs to groundplanes in a few seconds.

2010\08\06@121455 by doug metzler

picon face
I checked Amazon, the Metcals are between $650 and $1050?  For that kind of
money I'll twist the little dial :-)

If I soldered for a living it might be different.

I started out swapping tips.  For a while I even brought my station from
home to work so I'd have 2, one with a big tip and one with a little tip,
but eventually I developed enough skill that I didn't need the little tip
anymore.

DougM

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 9:04 AM, Mike Harrison <mikeEraseMEspamwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2010\08\06@133817 by V G

picon face
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Mike Harrison <RemoveMEmikeEraseMEspamspam_OUTwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:
> ..or just buy a decent iron like a Metcal that can maintain the temp regardless of load.

I am not made of money

2010\08\06@134406 by Gary Crowell

picon face
I'm looking at a Techni-Tool catalog, and it seems to have the best
selection of irons and accessories that I've seen in one place (doesn't
include the Chinese knockoffs though).  I also liked this because it
includes lists of all the accessories and tips for each.  (print catalog,
online doesn't seem to be so easy to use.)

In particular I was looking for which irons had a reservoir type tip.  In a
skilled hand, these are absolutely the fastest way to hand solder smd
packages (not counting using a paste stencil and hot air).  Pace calls it a
MiniWave tip, others call it a Hoof, Mini-Hoof, or Drag Hoof (Oki), and I
think the 'Multi-Lead Speed Solder' (Metcal) tip is similar.  I consider
the availability of one of these type tips a prerequisite for any iron I'd
buy.


----------------------------------------------
Gary A. Crowell Sr., P.E., CID+
http://www.linkedin.com/in/garyacrowells

2010\08\06@142745 by Jonathan Hallameyer

picon face
> I consider
> the availability of one of these type tips a prerequisite for any iron I'd
> buy.
>
>
I'd agree with that,  in the station I use at work, I use a drag-soldering
tip for everything from 0402 smd parts to 8 awg wire, reservoir design makes
SMD nice, and large size and bluntish shape makes bigger stuff
easy.   Sometimes the long/skinny conical point comes out to play, but
between the two of them (in two separate irons) it covers 99% of my
soldering tasks.
-- Jonathan Hallameye

2010\08\06@155943 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 09:41 AM 8/6/2010, Jonathan Hallameyer wrote:
> >
> > ..or just buy a decent iron like a Metcal that can maintain the temp
> > regardless of load.
> >
>Sounds ideal, but thermal transfer is limited, so all else the same, you can
>only push so many watts  into the joint regardless of soldering iron wattage
>and regulation.

I must respectfully disagree.

Its actually very hard for someone who has not used a Metcal soldering station to understand that bumping soldering temperature is NOT necessary when soldering large-mass joints.  Really hard.

I'll give you an example, though.  This was with one of the early Metcal stations - maybe a RFG-30 or PS2E - I don't recall.  This blew away the guys in my shop when I showed it to them for the first time.

Take an ordinary copper penny (a real penny - one that can be soldered).  Place it in the middle of a piece of single-sided or double-sided PCB material that has been cleaned enough to be soldered - perhaps 6" square.

Take the smallest Metcal tip that you have.  I think that for me, it was either a sttc-138 or a sttc-125.  The '125 has a very tiny tip, suitable for SMT work.

Add flux all around the penny, touch the soldering tip to the edge of the penny and add a bit of solder to promote thermal conductivity.  Wait, then start adding solder so that the entire penny is soldered to the PCB material.  Total time - about 1 minute.

Observe that the tip temperature does NOT go above the set-point of 700F.

Now go and solder a SMT device to a PCB without damaging it.

None of the other soldering stations that we have (had) here could solder that penny to the PCB material unless we installed a really big tip - maybe even having to go to an 800F tip in the case of the Weller station.

Like I said - its REALLY hard for someone who hasn't used that type of soldering station to understand the difference.

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <@spam@dwaynerRemoveMEspamEraseMEplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2010\08\06@160601 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
At 02:54 PM 8/5/2010, V G wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I am looking to buy a good quality soldering station (one that can
>do hot air rework
>would be good) (something like this one:

Head over to eBay and purchase a used Metcal MX-500 soldering station complete with wand and stand.  It will set you back about US $200 (sometimes less, rarely more) for a complete rig.

Make sure that the seller says that it is working 100% before bidding, though.  I've now purchased several Metcal power supplies that came to me DOA and I have schematics for only the MX-500 units, not any of the earlier units.  I guess that I'll get around to fixing them some day - just not any time soon.

dwayne

-- Dwayne Reid   <EraseMEdwaynerspam@spam@planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2010\08\06@175241 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face

>Like I said - its REALLY hard for someone who hasn't used that type
>of soldering station to understand the difference.

In the early (pre OKI) days, Metcal had a really simple sales technique - they just lent people
units for a week. Only about 5% didn't buy.

2010\08\06@191412 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Dwayne Reid wrote:

> Its actually very hard for someone who has not used a Metcal
> soldering station to understand that bumping soldering temperature is
> NOT necessary when soldering large-mass joints.  Really hard.

Even if you you don't go all the way to a metcal-level iron, do be  sure that you get an iron that is actually TEMPERATURE controlled, and  not just "variable wattage."  Even the first level of that step (say,  an old Weller magentically-controlled iron) makes a big difference...

BillW

2010\08\06@192518 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face

On Fri, 6 Aug 2010 16:14:11 -0700, "William Chops Westfield" said:

> Even if you you don't go all the way to a metcal-level iron, do be  
> sure that you get an iron that is actually TEMPERATURE controlled, and  
> not just "variable wattage."  Even the first level of that step (say,  
> an old Weller magentically-controlled iron) makes a big difference...

The Metcal stations presumably use octarine instead of magenta :)

Cheers,

Bob

-- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:
 http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

2010\08\06@223203 by RussellMc

face picon face
>> Even if you you don't go all the way to a metcal-level iron, do be
>> sure that you get an iron that is actually TEMPERATURE controlled, and
>> not just "variable wattage."  Even the first level of that step (say,
>> an old Weller magentically-controlled iron) makes a big difference...

> The Metcal stations presumably use octarine instead of magenta :)

And OFC and more :-).

BUT what needs to be realised is that Metcal (whose irons I have never
used) use a fundamentally different approach to heating the tip
compared to almost all the conventional methods.

It's hard to believe that "fundamentally different" is possible in
this context - but they manage.

They feed RF through the tip from a generator in the "stand" and use a
temperature selective mechanism to decide when to absorb it. This
means that the heat source is IN the tip with very very low thermal
path from there to the work. There are detailed explanations on web
but a quick Gargoyling just now failed to find one. Worth looking at
some time. Definitely Octarine.


                           Russell

2010\08\07@130849 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
A friend of mine rescued a Metcal from the trash once - the only
problem with it was that the cable to the handpiece had been cut. He
repaired this and now we use it at work routinely. It is amazing - it
takes about 5 seconds to go from a completely cold tip/OFF to full
temperature.

Sean


On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:31 PM, RussellMc <@spam@apptechnzspam_OUTspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\08\07@134219 by V G

picon face
On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Sean Breheny <spamBeGoneshb7EraseMEspamcornell.edu> wrote:
> A friend of mine rescued a Metcal from the trash once - the only
> problem with it was that the cable to the handpiece had been cut. He
> repaired this and now we use it at work routinely. It is amazing - it
> takes about 5 seconds to go from a completely cold tip/OFF to full
> temperature.

What's the lowest price you can get a Metcal for

2010\08\07@140418 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Sat, 7 Aug 2010 13:41:59 -0400, you wrote:

>On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Sean Breheny <shb7spamBeGonespamcornell.edu> wrote:
>> A friend of mine rescued a Metcal from the trash once - the only
>> problem with it was that the cable to the handpiece had been cut. He
>> repaired this and now we use it at work routinely. It is amazing - it
>> takes about 5 seconds to go from a completely cold tip/OFF to full
>> temperature.
>
>What's the lowest price you can get a Metcal for?

You often find them cheap  on ebay - look for STSS-002 or MX500. e.g
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Metcal-STSS-PS2V02-Soldering-system-/270618781567?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item3f0222e77f

Note that neither model is 110/230v switchable.
MX500's new are cheaper now they've brought out the MX5000
http://www.ams-electronics.co.uk/product_details.asp?CategoryID=9&SubCategoryID=10&SubSubCategoryID=22

Looks like someone else is about to bring out a cheaper version : http://www.thermaltronics.com/


'[EE] Soldering Station'
2012\03\19@164053 by Luis Moreira
flavicon
face
Hi Guys,
Need a bit of advice on purchasing  a Soldering Station. until recently we
had a Duratool ZD 939 at work that was capable, but it failed a few weeks
ago, most likely the heating element and since we are in a recession it was
decided that it is not worth repairing, as we do not use it that much.  I
actually did, but mostly for my own projects.
Anyway, it seems that now I need to get my own and I have been looking at a
few models, which seem quite good for a budget soldering/ rework station. I
have a budget of around £150, I can probably stretch it to £200, if I can
get it pass the missus :-)
I looked at a few models on Ebay and such and would like your opinion on
them or some other makes/models I may have missed.
the models I looked at are:

- Duratool ZD 939A
- Kada 852D+
- WEP 852D+ probably the same as above with different badge.
- WEP 872D+
- AOYUE 968 (which I really like)
- CSI 825++

Your opinions and experiences are welcomed.

Best Regards
                    Lui

2012\03\19@165423 by Mark Hanchey

flavicon
face
On 3/19/2012 4:40 PM, Luis Moreira wrote:
> the models I looked at are:
>
> - Duratool ZD 939A
> - Kada 852D+
> - WEP 852D+ probably the same as above with different badge.
> - WEP 872D+
> - AOYUE 968 (which I really like)
> - CSI 825++
>
> Your opinions and experiences are welcomed.
>
> Best Regards
>                       Luis

I have an Aoyue 937 that I like and have used quite a bit. The temps are stable and the performance has really been good. I've done both surface mount and through hole work with it without any problems.
Mark

2012\03\19@170113 by PICdude

flavicon
face
In the past 5-10 years I've used some lower-end Wellers and some Aoyue  tools.  Currently, I have 2 Aoyue 937+ and an 852A hot-air  reflow/vacuum pickup station.  For a comparison, I also have a Weller  (WLC100), but I don't use it often.

Only complaint I have re: the Aoyue is that on the soldering irons,  the wire breaks internally periodically.  It's always been at either  end, so some better strain-relief is all that is needed, or perhaps  better quality wire.  One wish-list item is for it to remember the  last temperature when powered off and back on.  Other than that, they  are significant bang for the buck.

The Weller works very well, but there's nothing it does that the  Aoyue's don't do just as well.

Cheers,
-Neil.


Quoting Luis Moreira <RemoveMEluis.moreira1575@spam@spamspamBeGonegooglemail.com>:

{Quote hidden}

>

2012\03\19@231802 by doug metzler

picon face
I use a Weller WESD51 at home (love it!) and a Hakko
something-or-other at work (hate it!)

Whatever you get I strongly recommend getting the kind with the dial
to change temp rather than the buttons.

DougM

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 2:01 PM, PICdude <.....picdude3@spam@spamEraseMEnarwani.org> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2012\03\20@015342 by Forrest Christian

flavicon
face
These seem to be all hot air... is that what you are looking for?

I never have had much luck with the whole hot air thing - I have an CSI-825, and only seem to succeed in scorching everything.

-forrest

On 3/19/2012 2:40 PM, Luis Moreira wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>                       Luis

2012\03\20@042041 by Luis Moreira

flavicon
face
Hi,

Sorry If I confused the issue when I started, I am looking primarily for an
hot air soldering/rework station or dual function. I already have a normal
soldering station, but found that for some jobs the hot gun type works well..

Forrest, do you have the temperature set right?

Best Regards

                  Luis

On Mar 20, 2012 5:56 AM, "Forrest Christian" <.....forrestcSTOPspamspam@spam@imach.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>

2012\03\20@085239 by Forrest Christian

flavicon
face
I think it's an issue with getting the heat at the right location without melting other nearby critical parts.  This was more for desolder than solder, and that tends to be a challenge... especially since I suspect that was before I discovered the benefits of using the right (good quality) flux.  I also suspect using it to reflow solder paste would likely be a more useful application.

And honestly, once I discovered chipquik at my home lab I don't have much need for it anymore, although I am considering using it again for semi-automatic soldering of connectors at the manufacturing facility.   Basically selective reflow of pin-in-paste for connectors which can't be baked..

Also at the manufacturing facility, we've just ended up with one of the PACE MBT 350's (I think I got the right number) with a standard iron, hot tweezers, and solder sucker/extractor.   Haven't found anything we couldn't rework just as quickly and with less damage with that set.   Of course lots of tips, but still, the fact that we are able to quickly an easily rework stuff as fine pitched as those 20mil microchip tqfp's is amazing.

-forrest

On 3/20/2012 2:20 AM, Luis Moreira wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> -

2012\03\20@115844 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
>
> On 3/20/2012 2:20 AM, Luis Moreira wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Sorry If I confused the issue when I started, I am looking primarily for
> an
> > hot air soldering/rework station or dual function. I already have a
> normal
> > soldering station, but found that for some jobs the hot gun type works
> well.
> >
>

I use the inexpensive Circuit Specialists CSI-906.  It has Hot Air with
Adjustable Air Temp and Air Flow, Multiple Nozzles and it has a regular
soldering iron.  I've had good experience with the Hot Air function, so-so
with the iron.

You have to experiment with air temperature and air flow rate but once you
get settings you can work with, you seldom have to change them.  You change
nozzles to keep the hot air where you want it on the board.  There's even a
nozzle for Quad packs that will solder/unsolder all pins of a quad pack
simultaneously without overheating the surrounding PCB.

-- Carey Fisher
Chief Technical Officer
New Communications Solutions, LLC
678-999-3956
RemoveMEcareyfisherspamspamBeGonencsradio.co

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