Post by thread:[EE] Xtal Gyroscopes

PICers - I got my hands on a model aeroplane kit a while back. It's your basic soaring glider with electric motor driving the propellor + radio control + GWS servos to operate the elevators. There's plenty of room inside for "extras" ... hah! so can't resist a bit of experimentation. :) Would like to try my hand at making the thing sort of autonomous and I guess the 1st item would be to fit a gyrostabiliser so it can fly straight without the operator's help. I've checked out the Futaba xtal gyro units - they look encouraging. What other types/brand names would people recommend? Price is an issue - gotta be reasonably cheap. Thankz for advice - Debbie ____________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database. http://au.movies.yahoo.com

Look at http://www.fmadirect.com They have several products in that area. Their "co-pilot" uses IR sensors to find the horzon and level up the wings. Most projects like you are considering use GPS to stay on course. I think you will find it a challenge to build such a project at an acceptable cost without going to a larger model. The weight builds up fast. I have a fair amount of RC airplane experience but most of my current activity is with two meter aircraft. I maintain the website at http://www.nsrca.org/d2/d2nsrca/D2Homepage.htm Nothing fancy, just communications... Welcome to the world of RC, it can be habit forming! John Ferrell http://DixieNC.US {Original Message removed}

I concur...why look at a gyro when you can go MEMS? The weight and power savings along make them a winner. -marc On 10/30/05, Windman <spam_OUTvictorfTakeThisOuTwindreader.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Might want to take a look at http://www.sparkfun.com <http://www.sparkfun.com> at > their inertial measuring > devices ready to go. Solid state gyros and solid state accelerometers. > Should be able to brew something interesting from them. > > HTH > > Vic > ___________________________________________________ > > Vic Fraenckel > KC2GUI > victorf AT windreader DOT com > >

--- Peter <.....plpKILLspam@spam@actcom.co.il> wrote: > > Futaba, Tokin and Murata all make piezo gyros of the kind you have in > mind. A simple autopilot can be built without using a computer, by just > using the gyro signal to change the duty cycle of a PWM signal which > directly drives a usual model servo. But since the gyro output is rate > proportional a proper heading or attitude hold cannot be maintained. > Iow, look for an electrolytic level sensor, a hall compass, and a > barometric sensor as a better starting point for an autopilot. > > Peter > -- Hey Peter, but surely you're not suggesting <gasp!> ... a project //without// a PIC?? :)) Actually, thankz for the tips, guys. Hmmm. The gizmos @ http://www.sparkfun.com look //very// interesting. Debbie ____________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Listen to over 20 online radio stations and watch the latest music videos on Yahoo! Music. http://au.launch.yahoo.com

It was listed in [EE], so call "regular" circuits fair game:) I'd put a PIC in the mix given by Peter. I've heard of using resistive photocells for horizon detectors before, which would keep the pitch stable and then use a tilt sensor of some kind on the roll axis... all read in by the PIC which can make its decisions and output servo signals. James On 10/31/05, Debbie <cyberia429-piclistKILLspamyahoo.com.au> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > --- Peter <.....plpKILLspam.....actcom.co.il> wrote: > > > > > Futaba, Tokin and Murata all make piezo gyros of the kind you have in > > mind. A simple autopilot can be built without using a computer, by just > > using the gyro signal to change the duty cycle of a PWM signal which > > directly drives a usual model servo. But since the gyro output is rate > > proportional a proper heading or attitude hold cannot be maintained. > > Iow, look for an electrolytic level sensor, a hall compass, and a > > barometric sensor as a better starting point for an autopilot. > > > > Peter > > -- > > Hey Peter, but surely you're not suggesting <gasp!> ... a project > //without// a > PIC?? :)) > Actually, thankz for the tips, guys. Hmmm. The gizmos @ http://www.sparkfun.com<http://www.sparkfun.com>look > //very// interesting. > Debbie > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Listen to over 20 online radio stations and watch the latest music videos > on Yahoo! Music. > http://au.launch.yahoo.com >

--- James Humes <EraseMEjames.humesspam_OUTTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote: > It was listed in [EE], so call "regular" circuits fair game:) I'd put a PIC > in the mix given by Peter. I've heard of using resistive photocells for > horizon detectors before, which would keep the pitch stable and then use a > tilt sensor of some kind on the roll axis... all read in by the PIC which > can make its decisions and output servo signals. > James Sounds good to me. I had a look @ Tokin's offerings. Check out their 3D motion sensor:- www.nec-tokin.com/english/product/3d/index.html Crikey! It's a 3-in-one mini gizmo and even has USB! Debbie ____________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find a local business fast with Yahoo! Local Search http://au.local.yahoo.com

Debbie wrote: > --- James Humes <james.humesspam_OUTgmail.com> wrote: > > >>It was listed in [EE], so call "regular" circuits fair game:) I'd put a PIC >>in the mix given by Peter. I've heard of using resistive photocells for >>horizon detectors before, which would keep the pitch stable and then use a >>tilt sensor of some kind on the roll axis... all read in by the PIC which >>can make its decisions and output servo signals. >> James > > > Sounds good to me. I had a look @ Tokin's offerings. Check out their 3D motion > sensor:- > > www.nec-tokin.com/english/product/3d/index.html > Crikey! It's a 3-in-one mini gizmo and even has USB! > Debbie Interesting that it does NOT have 'mouse mode' for newer O/Ss. Only 98/ME. I doubt that this product ever made it to market. Does anyone remember the old Gyropoint mouse?. You could lift it off your desk and still use it to point. Used a Murata rate gyro. But I could buy a mouse with two sensor in it cheaper than I could get Murata's sensor in OEM research quantities, so there were a lot of dead rodents in our lab. Yet the gyropoint never caught on. Does anyone have a source for small quantities of these units? Robert

There was an article using electrostatic charge to sense attitude several years agi in Flying Models magazine. As I remember it used radioactive sources from smoke detectors and analog electronics to do the job. Team 190 of First Robotics used a Piezo Gyro and a 3 axis acelerometer to do full inertial navigation of the robot during autonomous mode and to add features like heading hold when controlled remotely. Larry Nelson Sr. {Quote hidden}> > From: James Humes <@spam@james.humesKILLspamgmail.com> > Date: 2005/10/31 Mon PM 02:32:43 EST > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <KILLspampiclistKILLspammit.edu> > Subject: Re: [EE] Xtal Gyroscopes - ideas? > > It was listed in [EE], so call "regular" circuits fair game:) I'd put a PIC > in the mix given by Peter. I've heard of using resistive photocells for > horizon detectors before, which would keep the pitch stable and then use a > tilt sensor of some kind on the roll axis... all read in by the PIC which > can make its decisions and output servo signals. > James > > On 10/31/05, Debbie <RemoveMEcyberia429-piclistTakeThisOuTyahoo.com.au> wrote: > > > > > > --- Peter <spamBeGoneplpspamBeGoneactcom.co.il> wrote: > > > > > > > > Futaba, Tokin and Murata all make piezo gyros of the kind you have in > > > mind. A simple autopilot can be built without using a computer, by just > > > using the gyro signal to change the duty cycle of a PWM signal which > > > directly drives a usual model servo. But since the gyro output is rate > > > proportional a proper heading or attitude hold cannot be maintained. > > > Iow, look for an electrolytic level sensor, a hall compass, and a > > > barometric sensor as a better starting point for an autopilot. > > > > > > Peter > > > -- > > > > Hey Peter, but surely you're not suggesting <gasp!> ... a project > > //without// a > > PIC?? :)) > > Actually, thankz for the tips, guys. Hmmm. The gizmos @ http://www.sparkfun.com<http://www.sparkfun.com>look > > //very// interesting. > > Debbie > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Listen to over 20 online radio stations and watch the latest music videos > > on Yahoo! Music. > > http://au.launch.yahoo.com > > --

On 10/31/05, Debbie <TakeThisOuTcyberia429-piclistEraseMEspam_OUTyahoo.com.au> wrote: > Sounds good to me. I had a look @ Tokin's offerings. Check out their 3D motion > sensor:- > > www.nec-tokin.com/english/product/3d/index.html > Crikey! It's a 3-in-one mini gizmo and even has USB! Wow that is kind of cute. Unfortunately, the USB connection is a bit of a downer. I don't think Implementing a USB host in a PIC would be that fun of a project. Perhaps it wouldn't be that bad if it was specifically tailored to talk only to a specific slave device. Josh -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -Douglas Adams

Debbie, That looks like a pretty nice IMU in that it takes care of some of the sticking points of IMU design for you, but I'm not sure if its really what you'd want for an autonomous aerial vehicle. Go to http://www.analog.com<http://www.analog.com>and you can get samples of their two axis accel.'s and I think even of their 3 axis gyro. These are all QFN (or similar) surface mount parts, so depending on how you feel about them, you can go to a site (like http://www.sparkfun.com <http://www.sparkfun.com> ) and get them already mounted on breakout boards. If you'd like to go with a more complete unit, (someone said this above I think) they have a system that has an accel. on each axis and a gyro on each axis. They also have some comm. equipment that might be useful as you get into the project. If your only goal is to measure the pitch and roll of the plane, then a single 2 axis accel. from analog devices could meet your needs. They're very easy to use. James On 10/31/05, Robert Rolf <RemoveMERobert.RolfTakeThisOuTualberta.ca> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > > Debbie wrote: > > --- James Humes <james.humesEraseME.....gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >>It was listed in [EE], so call "regular" circuits fair game:) I'd put a > PIC > >>in the mix given by Peter. I've heard of using resistive photocells for > >>horizon detectors before, which would keep the pitch stable and then use > a > >>tilt sensor of some kind on the roll axis... all read in by the PIC > which > >>can make its decisions and output servo signals. > >> James > > > > > > Sounds good to me. I had a look @ Tokin's offerings. Check out their 3D > motion > > sensor:- > > > > www.nec-tokin.com/english/product/3d/index.html > > Crikey! It's a 3-in-one mini gizmo and even has USB! > > Debbie > > > Interesting that it does NOT have 'mouse mode' for newer O/Ss. > Only 98/ME. I doubt that this product ever made it to market. > > Does anyone remember the old Gyropoint mouse?. You could lift > it off your desk and still use it to point. Used a Murata rate > gyro. > But I could buy a mouse with two sensor in it cheaper > than I could get Murata's sensor in OEM research quantities, so there > were a lot of dead rodents in our lab. > > Yet the gyropoint never caught on. > > Does anyone have a source for small quantities of these units? > > Robert > > >

Oh yeah, you could even use it sans the PIC if you're feeling wacky. On 10/31/05, James Humes <EraseMEjames.humesgmail.com> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Debbie, > That looks like a pretty nice IMU in that it takes care of some of the > sticking points of IMU design for you, but I'm not sure if its really what > you'd want for an autonomous aerial vehicle. Go to http://www.analog.com<http://www.analog.com/>and you can get samples of their two axis accel.'s and I think even of their > 3 axis gyro. These are all QFN (or similar) surface mount parts, so > depending on how you feel about them, you can go to a site (like > http://www.sparkfun.com <http://www.sparkfun.com/> ) and get them already mounted > on breakout boards. If you'd like to go with a more complete unit, (someone > said this above I think) they have a system that has an accel. on each axis > and a gyro on each axis. They also have some comm. equipment that might be > useful as you get into the project. > If your only goal is to measure the pitch and roll of the plane, then a > single 2 axis accel. from analog devices could meet your needs. They're very > easy to use. > James > > On 10/31/05, Robert Rolf <RemoveMERobert.RolfEraseMEEraseMEualberta.ca> wrote: > > > > > > > > Debbie wrote: > > > --- James Humes <RemoveMEjames.humesspam_OUTKILLspamgmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > > > >>It was listed in [EE], so call "regular" circuits fair game:) I'd put > > a PIC > > >>in the mix given by Peter. I've heard of using resistive photocells > > for > > >>horizon detectors before, which would keep the pitch stable and then > > use a > > >>tilt sensor of some kind on the roll axis... all read in by the PIC > > which > > >>can make its decisions and output servo signals. > > >> James > > > > > > > > > Sounds good to me. I had a look @ Tokin's offerings. Check out their > > 3D motion > > > sensor:- > > > > > > www.nec-tokin.com/english/product/3d/index.html > > > Crikey! It's a 3-in-one mini gizmo and even has USB! > > > Debbie > > > > > > Interesting that it does NOT have 'mouse mode' for newer O/Ss. > > Only 98/ME. I doubt that this product ever made it to market. > > > > Does anyone remember the old Gyropoint mouse?. You could lift > > it off your desk and still use it to point. Used a Murata rate > > gyro. > > But I could buy a mouse with two sensor in it cheaper > > than I could get Murata's sensor in OEM research quantities, so there > > were a lot of dead rodents in our lab. > > > > Yet the gyropoint never caught on. > > > > Does anyone have a source for small quantities of these units? > > > > Robert > > > > > > --

> -----Original Message----- > From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspammit.edu > [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamspamBeGonemit.edu] On Behalf Of RemoveMEmchipguruKILLspamcharter.net > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:30 PM > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. > Subject: Re: Re: [EE] Xtal Gyroscopes - ideas? > > There was an article using electrostatic charge to sense > attitude several years agi in Flying Models magazine. As I > remember it used radioactive sources from smoke detectors and > analog electronics to do the job. I remember that, would have been around '68-69 GC

part 0 44 bytes his is a multi-part message in MIME format. part 1 971 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed (decoded 7bit) gacrowellSTOPspamspam_OUTmicron.com wrote: {Quote hidden}> > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesSTOPspamEraseMEmit.edu >>[KILLspampiclist-bouncesspamBeGonemit.edu] On Behalf Of EraseMEmchipguruEraseMEcharter.net >>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:30 PM >>To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. >>Subject: Re: Re: [EE] Xtal Gyroscopes - ideas? >> >>There was an article using electrostatic charge to sense >>attitude several years agi in Flying Models magazine. As I >>remember it used radioactive sources from smoke detectors and >>analog electronics to do the job. >> >> > >I remember that, would have been around '68-69 > >GC > > > I still have the magazine if any one is interested. They actually used the radioactive source from a brush you used to remove dust from records. I don't think smoke detectors were that available at that time. part 2 391 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; charset=utf-8; (decoded 7bit) begin:vcard fn:Robert I. Nelson n:Nelson;Robert I. org:RIN Designs adr:;;P.O. BOX 373;RIPON;WI;54971;USA email;internet:@spam@rindesigns@spam@spam_OUTcharter.net tel;work:1-(920)-229-7152 tel;home:1-(920)-748-7443 note;quoted-printable:Custom design and building of small electro mechanical devices.=0D=0A= AUTOCAD work ver2002 x-mozilla-html:FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard part 3 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (decoded 7bit)

--- Peter <spamBeGoneplpKILLspamactcom.co.il> wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Debbie wrote: > > > Hey Peter, but surely you're not suggesting <gasp!> ... a project > //without// a > > PIC?? :)) > > Of course not. You need a PIC to blink the blue led. That was so obvious > I did not even mention it. > > Peter Aah yes, of course! I see it now. I'd use a 16F877 to drive a relay to apply power to an LM555 in astable mode to blink the LED ... ;) Debbie ____________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database. http://au.movies.yahoo.com

--- Juan Cubillo <.....jacubillorospam_OUTcostarricense.cr> wrote: > > Aah yes, of course! I see it now. I'd use a 16F877 to drive a relay to > apply > > power to an LM555 in astable mode to blink the LED ... ;) > > Debbie > > You should add a transistor between the PIC and the relay!!! > :) > Juan Cubillo Nah, how 'bout an opto-coupler so you could have a dual supply - 5V for the PIC, 12V for the relay & a whopping battery, the weight to be compensated by an He balloon to lift the aeroplane? :)) Debbie ____________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Never miss an Instant Message - Yahoo! Messenger for SMS http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mweb/index.html

Boy it sure takes a while to catch up when one has been away for a week ... > On Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Debbie wrote: > > > Hey Peter, but surely you're not suggesting <gasp!> ... a project > //without// a > > PIC?? :)) > > Of course not. You need a PIC to blink the blue led. That was so obvious > I did not even mention it. Actually I thought it was going in some form of aeroplane, so she really needs a red one on one wing tip, and a green one on the other ... Then when it tilts the nose toward the ground there is a white one for the landing lights ... Now that has taken all the pins of a 10F device ...