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'[EE] Eagle question'
2003\05\21@010549 by Julio Jumpa

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Hello,

I need to make (home-make) a 2 layered PCB design...It's gonna be about 12x9
cm.

I'm using 5 DIP ICs, lots of resistors, lots of TO92 transistors, LEDs, etc.

My question is:

How do I tell the autorouter not to route my DIP ICs in the top layer...I
mean, DIP ICs, if placed in the top layer, need to be soldered in the
opposite (bottom) layer...right?...so why does eagle begins traces from some
IC's  pads in the top layer and some other traces in the bottom layer...?

Thanks for your time

Julio

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2003\05\21@023237 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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On Wednesday, May 21, 2003, at 14:55 Australia/Sydney, Julio Jumpa
wrote:

> How do I tell the autorouter not to route my DIP ICs in the top
> layer...I
> mean, DIP ICs, if placed in the top layer, need to be soldered in the
> opposite (bottom) layer...right?

Correct.

> ...so why does eagle begins traces from some
> IC's  pads in the top layer and some other traces in the bottom
> layer...?

Because EAGLE assumes (correctly) that if you have a 2 layered board,
then each signal layer is available for tracks.

If its a home made board there is no reason why you can't just solder
top and bottom of the ICs

Otherwise, if you insist on NOT allowing EAGLE to route to ONLY the
ICs, then you can draw a polygon around the IC pads on the trestrict (I
think) layer.

Regards,

Sean

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2003\05\21@031832 by Julio Jumpa

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hi,

I need to use sockets for ICs, so, it's gonna be kind of difficult to solder
the socket on the top layer.

the polygon on the trestrinct layer solved the problem

thank you very much

Julio
{Original Message removed}

2003\05\21@032915 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   If its a home made board there is no reason why you can't just
   solder top and bottom of the ICs

Well, sockets make this nearly impossible, for instance.  Other components
are inherently difficult to solder on both sides (relays and displays are
particularly nasty...)


   Otherwise, if you insist on NOT allowing EAGLE to route to ONLY
   the ICs, then you can draw a polygon around the IC pads on the
   trestrict (I think) layer.

That's correct.  This is actually a real PITA.  If you draw a large
rectangle around the DIP, it will prevent the autorouter from routing
topside traces between the pins or under the DIP, which would be desirable.
You can put polygons on each pin, but that takes a while and the DRC will
complain about the top-level PADS being in tRestrict.  Apparently the
correct solution is to draw a small rectangle using "wires" in tRestrict
around each pin.  Grr..

IMO, it better to route (automatically or manually) everything you can (and
hopefully all of your "troublesome" pins) on the bottom layer, and then
route (probably manually) the remaining connection on the top layer, more
or less as if you were doing a single-sided board with jumpers.  (But this
in turn results in a board that is a bit "weird" should you get it
professionally manufactured - I understand from a previous discussion that
it's "nice" if there's an equal area of traces on each side of the board.)

BillW

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2003\05\21@040828 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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Bill,

> Well, sockets make this nearly impossible, for instance.

Yeah, fair enough. Don't use them, myself.

> Other components are inherently difficult to solder on both sides
> (relays and displays are particularly nasty...)

Yeah, I'm spoilt with through-hole plating on all my prototype boards.
But he did say just the ICs.

Looks like I was able to help him out anyway! ;-)

Cheers,

Sean

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2003\05\21@041035 by Sean Alcorn - PIC Stuff

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Hi J(h)ulio,

> I need to use sockets for ICs, so, it's gonna be kind of difficult to
> solder
> the socket on the top layer.

Yes. Understand.

> the polygon on the trestrinct layer solved the problem
> thank you very much

No worries, mate! As soon as I clicked "Send", I was worried I had
written the wrong layer. I had to go out, so I couldn't fire up EAGLE
to check.

Glad it worked!

Cheer,

Sean

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2003\05\21@041659 by Alan B. Pearce

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> Well, sockets make this nearly impossible, for instance.

Not if you use the "turned pin" type sockets. These are the only ones I will
use anyway, having had horrible experiences with cheaper ones, and the
happen to have a significant length of pin exposed that allows you to solder
on the top side.

They also make excellent "pin savers" for IC's that require frequent
removal, such as EPROM's going into a UV eraser.

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2003\05\21@045302 by Julio Jumpa

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De: "Julio Jumpa" <@spam@juliojumpaKILLspamspaminfonegocio.net.pe>
Para: "pic microcontroller discussion list" <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Asunto: Re: [EE] Eagle question
Fecha: Miircoles, 21 de Mayo de 2003 02:17 a.m.

hi,

I need to use sockets for ICs, so, it's gonna be kind of difficult to solder
the socket on the top layer.

the polygon on the trestrinct layer solved the problem

thank you very much

Julio

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To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [EE] Eagle question

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2003\05\22@151633 by Peter L. Peres

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Select the polygon shape in the layout editor, select the topRestrict
layer, and draw a polygon under each IC so it just covers it (including
the pins). Then reroute the board.

Peter

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'[EE] EAGLE question'
2005\04\23@163636 by Glenn Jones
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Hello,
I am an avid user of EAGLE, but one thing has eluded me. Is there a
way to turn off the little origin cross hairs for text in the
schematic editor? It makes the documents look somewhat bad having a
little plus sign next to every line of text.
Glenn

2005\04\23@173454 by Rob Young

picon face
> Hello,
> I am an avid user of EAGLE, but one thing has eluded me. Is there a
> way to turn off the little origin cross hairs for text in the
> schematic editor? It makes the documents look somewhat bad having a
> little plus sign next to every line of text.
> Glenn


Not that I know of.  However unless there is some kind of issue with your
particular printer drivers, that origin marker doesn't show up on a print.
The torigin and borigin layer markers will unless you turn off that layer.

Rob

2005\04\23@185750 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
>> I am an avid user of EAGLE, but one thing has eluded me. Is there a
>> way to turn off the little origin cross hairs for text in the
>> schematic editor? It makes the documents look somewhat bad having a
>> little plus sign next to every line of text.
>>
I don't see the crosshairs on either print output OR image export of
schematics.
Are you talking about just on the active display?

BillW

2005\04\23@191326 by csb

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> I am an avid user of EAGLE, but one thing has eluded me. Is there a
> way to turn off the little origin cross hairs for text in the
> schematic editor? It makes the documents look somewhat bad having a
> little plus sign next to every line of text.
It shouldn't come up when you print out the schematic... If it does
you can always try Export.Image, which works fine for me. on the
board you can hide the white croshair by hiding the Torigin and
Borigin layers (type "disp -torig -borig").

Good luck,
Christian
VA2CBW

2005\04\23@191937 by Glenn Jones

picon face
Yes, I meant on the active display, since I was doing screen captures.
I will try image export, it sounds like a better way of doing things
anyway.
Thanks all,
Glenn

On 4/23/05, William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwspamTakeThisOuTmac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -


'[EE] Eagle Question'
2005\11\29@063853 by Kevin
picon face
I have a standard 2.54mm 3 pin header on an Eagle Schematic.
Pin1 Gnd, Pin2, Supply, Pin3 to Pic Pin, I would like to add
2 rows of 3, on the board, so it would be like a small
proto area in case I need to connect a wire or add a cap or
resistor to smooth out a signal. So, GND would be connected
to the two pins in front of it on the board like a
solderless bread board.  What symbol would this be ? Should
I just use a jumper symbol or can you draw something like
this on the schematic ?

Thanks in advance,
Kevin


2005\11\29@064914 by Vasile Surducan

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The simplest way is adding vias in the PCB. No schematic need.

Vasile

On 11/29/05, Kevin <kbenEraseMEspam.....dca.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2005\11\29@065624 by Kevin

picon face
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Vasile Surducan wrote:

> The simplest way is adding vias in the PCB. No schematic need.
>
> Vasile
>
> On 11/29/05, Kevin <EraseMEkbenspamdca.net> wrote:
> > I have a standard 2.54mm 3 pin header on an Eagle Schematic.
> > Pin1 Gnd, Pin2, Supply, Pin3 to Pic Pin, I would like to add
> > 2 rows of 3, on the board, so it would be like a small
> > proto area in case I need to connect a wire or add a cap or
> > resistor to smooth out a signal. So, GND would be connected
> > to the two pins in front of it on the board like a
> > solderless bread board.  What symbol would this be ? Should
> > I just use a jumper symbol or can you draw something like
> > this on the schematic ?
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Kevin
> >
> >
Yes, I could try that, however, Olin has this on his quick
proto board.
www.embedinc.com/products/qprot01/qprot2.pdf
I am looking for something similiar to sheet 6.
Unfortunately, it is in pdf format, so I do not know how he
did it on the schematic ?

2005\11\29@140456 by Tarun Grover

picon face
Kevin,

As far as I can tell, Olin has just used some pin headers from the PINHEAD
library in EAGLE (he may not have used EAGLE) and connected his VCC and GND
to the headers.  I've used this on many boards and it seems to work fine.

Is this what you were asking?  Sorry, I don't think I completely understood
your original question.

Hope this helps

-Tarun.

On 11/29/05, Kevin <RemoveMEkbenEraseMEspamEraseMEdca.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2005\11\29@142342 by olin piclist

face picon face
Tarun Grover wrote:
> As far as I can tell, Olin has just used some pin headers from the
> PINHEAD library in EAGLE

No way.  The Cadsoft libraries suck.  Besides, a pin header wouldn't solve
this problem.

> (he may not have used EAGLE)

I did use Eagle.


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2005\11\30@064200 by Howard Winter

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Olin,

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:25:09 -0500, Olin Lathrop wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Tease!  I've been meaning to ask how you did the 5-strips in Eagle, because I haven't managed to solve it.  Is
there a demon trick that you've discovered, or something obvious that I've missed?  They appear in the
schematic, so I don't think it's done at the board stage, so how do you tell Eagle to connect pins for a
single component together?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2005\11\30@084522 by olin piclist

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Howard Winter wrote:
> Tease!  I've been meaning to ask how you did the 5-strips in Eagle,
> because I haven't managed to solve it.  Is there a demon trick that
> you've discovered, or something obvious that I've missed?  They appear
> in the schematic, so I don't think it's done at the board stage, so how
> do you tell Eagle to connect pins for a single component together?

You put copper where you want it in the package definition, then raise the
blast shields when running DRC.


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'[EE] Eagle Question'
2006\01\07@183404 by Kevin
picon face

Maybe a dumb question, I have a motor chip MC33887, which
has a few features, like current use of motor. I wanted to
define two gnd classes one for powering the motor and one
for the current sense. This would make it easier to auto
route, since the motor current would be on a 40 mil route
and the motor current sense would be on a 20 mil route
trace. Does this make sense to do ?  Is it possible to
define two ground classes for one chip ?

Thanks,
Kevin

2006\01\09@075433 by olin piclist

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Kevin wrote:
> Is it possible to define two ground classes for one chip ?

Classes (Eagle) have nothing to do with chips (devices), just nets.  Each
net can only have one class.


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2006\01\09@092738 by Kevin

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>
> Maybe a dumb question, I have a motor chip MC33887, which
> has a few features, like current use of motor. I wanted to
> define two gnd classes one for powering the motor and one
> for the current sense. This would make it easier to auto
> route, since the motor current would be on a 40 mil route
> and the motor current sense would be on a 20 mil route
> trace. Does this make sense to do ?  Is it possible to
> define two ground classes for one chip ?
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin


2006\01\09@114543 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 9, 2006, at 4:56 AM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> Is it possible to define two ground classes for one chip ?
>
> Classes (Eagle) have nothing to do with chips (devices), just nets.
> Each net can only have one class.

You CAN have several "power" "direction" pins with different names,
such as "AGND", "PGND", "LGND", and so on (and then AGND@2, etc.)
Connecting multiple "different" signals to the same copper on the
PCB or net on a schematic seems to be one of the "FAQ" issues for
Eagle users; various sorts of zero-ohm resistors tend to be used.

BillW

2006\01\09@150741 by Peter

picon face


On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Kevin wrote:
>> Is it possible to define two ground classes for one chip ?
>
> Classes (Eagle) have nothing to do with chips (devices), just nets.  Each
> net can only have one class.

Isn't this why 'zero ohm jumper' parts using overlapping pads or traces
are configured into Eagle libraries ?

Peter

2006\01\09@151906 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> Isn't this why 'zero ohm jumper' parts using overlapping pads or traces
> are configured into Eagle libraries ?


It's an easy hack, and works with most programs.  It's what I use with the
old DOS orcad. The program never sees the nets as connected.

2006\01\09@153502 by olin piclist

face picon face
Peter wrote:
> Isn't this why 'zero ohm jumper' parts using overlapping pads or traces
> are configured into Eagle libraries ?

I don't know, but that's why I have a library of "shorts".

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2006\01\09@171254 by Kevin

picon face
On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, David VanHorn wrote:
> >
> >
> > Isn't this why 'zero ohm jumper' parts using overlapping pads or traces
> > are configured into Eagle libraries ?
>
>
> It's an easy hack, and works with most programs.  It's what I use with the
> old DOS orcad. The program never sees the nets as connected.
> --
Thanks for the repsonses, I should have enough info to do
what I need.

~Kevin

2006\01\10@172853 by Peter

picon face


On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, David VanHorn wrote:

>>
>>
>> Isn't this why 'zero ohm jumper' parts using overlapping pads or traces
>> are configured into Eagle libraries ?
>
>
> It's an easy hack, and works with most programs.  It's what I use with the
> old DOS orcad. The program never sees the nets as connected.

What about DRC ? Do you put a via at the joint to shut it up ? That
should connect the networks and Eagle complains about such things.

Peter

2006\01\10@173041 by Peter

picon face


On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Peter wrote:
>> Isn't this why 'zero ohm jumper' parts using overlapping pads or traces
>> are configured into Eagle libraries ?
>
> I don't know, but that's why I have a library of "shorts".

Ok, so do I, but Eagle does not like it when one connects nets in the
PCB. What is the trick to avoid that ? Do you have an actual part that
looks like a 'jumper' or something and whose pattern has overlapping
traces ? Doesn't DRC/ERC complain about that ?

Peter

2006\01\10@174742 by olin piclist

face picon face
Peter wrote:
> Do you have an actual part that
> looks like a 'jumper' or something and whose pattern has overlapping
> traces ?

Yes, my shorts look like a slightly thicker line in the schematic.

> Doesn't DRC/ERC complain about that ?

Not ERC, but DRC does.

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2006\01\10@231047 by Gaston Gagnon

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Peter wrote:

{Quote hidden}

As William already mentionned, a 0 ohm SMD is used.
Gaston

2006\01\11@073349 by olin piclist

face picon face
Gaston Gagnon wrote:
> As William already mentionned, a 0 ohm SMD is used.

But then you actually have to place a 0ohm "resistor" on the board at
production time.


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2006\01\11@083143 by alan smith

picon face
Remember what ERC and DRC are for....to warn YOU that something is wrong and could be a problem.  In some packages, you get  a warning for parts that are overlapping, but if thats OK (say a connector who's ears are above the 0201 part below it) then don't worry about it.  Same with ERC from Eagle, I get ERC saying that something is too close to something else, but the ratsnest is fine so thats the end result....interpret the reports and determine if what you are seeing really is an issue.
 
 For connecting two ground...digital and analog, I always find its a good idea to put something there....zero ohm, ferrite beat....but a package so you can experiment if you do have issues.

               
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2006\01\11@172222 by Peter

picon face


On Tue, 10 Jan 2006, Gaston Gagnon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Ok, thanks. I was thinking about the overlapping traces as Olin wrote.
Hmm. Would a *very* short 0 ohm resistor be a ERC violation ? I do not
expect Eagle to be smart enough to get away with that but it does not
hurt to ask ...

thanks,
Peter

2006\01\11@194206 by Peter

picon face


On Wed, 11 Jan 2006, alan smith wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Good ideas to keep in mind. Thanks.

Peter

2006\01\12@154213 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 1/11/06, Olin Lathrop <RemoveMEolin_piclistTakeThisOuTspamspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Peter wrote:
> > Do you have an actual part that
> > looks like a 'jumper' or something and whose pattern has overlapping
> > traces ?
>
> Yes, my shorts look like a slightly thicker line in the schematic.
>
> > Doesn't DRC/ERC complain about that ?
>
> Not ERC, but DRC does.

There is a trick for this. Use a standard two pin whatever as a jumper.
After the board is ready and you don't need anymore the drc feature
change in library the two pin device with a short circuit and update
the lib. Voilla.

cheers,
Vasile

2006\01\12@161653 by olin piclist

face picon face
Vasile Surducan wrote:
> There is a trick for this. Use a standard two pin whatever as a
> jumper. After the board is ready and you don't need anymore the drc
> feature change in library the two pin device with a short circuit and
> update the lib. Voilla.

Hmm.  As long as you actually remember to do it.

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2006\01\12@185726 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 12, 2006, at 1:16 PM, Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> After the board is ready and you don't need anymore the drc
>> feature change in library the two pin device with a short
>> circuit and update the lib. Voilla.
>
> Hmm.  As long as you actually remember to do it.
>
If you don't remember, you have to install a jumper; shouldn't
be TOO big a deal...

So can you just do this with an alternate package and a "change
package" command on your jumper?  Or two separate libraries and
and "update shorts = shorts-w-gaps" command?   That'd be pretty
easy to script or ULP into a general purpose "pre-production"
script...  Nice...

BillW

2006\01\13@051247 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 1/12/06, Olin Lathrop <EraseMEolin_piclistspamspamspamBeGoneembedinc.com> wrote:
> Vasile Surducan wrote:
> > There is a trick for this. Use a standard two pin whatever as a
> > jumper. After the board is ready and you don't need anymore the drc
> > feature change in library the two pin device with a short circuit and
> > update the lib. Voilla.
>
> Hmm.  As long as you actually remember to do it.

There are many other shits on Eagle. For instance if you have more
than 300-400 components and about of 1500- routes or more, even if you
keep off the polygon processing, it works like a snail on 1GHz
processor.
I'm wasting my patience...

cheers,
Vasile

2006\01\13@070751 by olin piclist

face picon face
William Chops Westfield wrote:
> So can you just do this with an alternate package and a "change
> package" command on your jumper?  Or two separate libraries and
> and "update shorts = shorts-w-gaps" command?   That'd be pretty
> easy to script or ULP into a general purpose "pre-production"
> script...  Nice...

If you're going to do that (and I'm still uneasy about this), you have to
make sure nothing gets routed between the pads of the package.  At least put
Trestrict and Brestrict rectangles in the package definition.


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2006\01\13@131555 by Peter

picon face


On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Vasile Surducan wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Does this change propagate to the current project ? When I reopen it or
whenever ? This could be a good solution. Make a smd 'zero ohm' part,
call it 'tbs' (to be shorted) and when done actually substitute the
library in which it is defined with another where the library part is
actually shorted, reopen the project, and verify that the board does not
do anything stupid, then CAM it ? This sounds like a Rube Goldberg
solution (like so many others ...). But will it work ? Vasile, when you
change the library, does it affect all the projects that use it ? What
if they are open (the projects) ?

thanks,
Peter

2006\01\13@131620 by Peter

picon face

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Vasile Surducan wrote:
>> There is a trick for this. Use a standard two pin whatever as a
>> jumper. After the board is ready and you don't need anymore the drc
>> feature change in library the two pin device with a short circuit and
>> update the lib. Voilla.
>
> Hmm.  As long as you actually remember to do it.

This could be scripted I think. No ?

Peter

2006\01\13@134355 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> when you
> change the library, does it affect all the projects that use
> it ?

No, only when you do an update (either of that specific library or of
all libraries). A .brd file contains a *copy* of the relevant library
part, which is updated only when you do an update.

You can even create a library from a .brd!

Wouter van Ooijen

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2006\01\13@134435 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> Hmm.  As long as you actually remember to do it.
>
> This could be scripted I think. No ?

How do you script rembering to run the script?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2006\01\13@151750 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Jan 13, 2006, at 10:44 AM, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> This could be scripted I think. No ?
>
> How do you script rembering to run the script?

Default to having shorted shorts.  Replace the DRC command
with a "script rundrc" command or user buttom.   You don't
need to remember to short the shorts, you just need to remember
to unshort them for purposes of running the DRC...

BillW

2006\01\14@131235 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 1/13/06, Wouter van Ooijen <wouterSTOPspamspamspam_OUTvoti.nl> wrote:
> > when you
> > change the library, does it affect all the projects that use
> > it ?
>
> No, only when you do an update (either of that specific library or of
> all libraries). A .brd file contains a *copy* of the relevant library
> part, which is updated only when you do an update.
>
> You can even create a library from a .brd!

How?

Vasile

2006\01\14@142901 by Peter

picon face


On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> when you
>> change the library, does it affect all the projects that use
>> it ?
>
> No, only when you do an update (either of that specific library or of
> all libraries). A .brd file contains a *copy* of the relevant library
> part, which is updated only when you do an update.
>
> You can even create a library from a .brd!

Aha! Thanks, this is useful. Is this fully recursive ? <g>

Peter

2006\01\14@142931 by Peter

picon face


On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>>> Hmm.  As long as you actually remember to do it.
>>
>> This could be scripted I think. No ?
>
> How do you script rembering to run the script?

You 'file' it in the same drawer with the leaflet that says 'up your
zipper'.

Peter

2006\01\14@150524 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> > You can even create a library from a .brd!
>
> How?

exp-project-lbr.ulp

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\01\15@021740 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 1/14/06, Wouter van Ooijen <spamBeGonewouterSTOPspamspamEraseMEvoti.nl> wrote:
> > > You can even create a library from a .brd!
> >
> > How?
>
> exp-project-lbr.ulp

Aha, there is also a feature to create a generic board package
library from all Eagle libraries. I don't remember the name now.

best,
Vasile


'[EE] Eagle question'
2006\03\08@080315 by Will
flavicon
face
Eagle questions:
When performing auto route, is it possible to disallow diagonal tracks.
?
When performing auto route is it possible to force all red tracks to be
in one direction, and all blue track in the other direction, and to
have this 100% enforced
?
Is it possible to see the names of the pins of an IC, when I click on
the pin, I get the of the entire IC rather than the name of the pin?

2006\03\08@082024 by olin piclist

face picon face
Will wrote:
> Eagle questions:

You're asking a lot of basic Eagle questions in a short time.  While we're
willing to help, you also have to do your part and

                     *** READ THE MANUAL ***

> When performing auto route, is it possible to disallow diagonal tracks.

Yes.

> When performing auto route is it possible to force all red tracks to be
> in one direction, and all blue track in the other direction,

No, you can't set these parameters by display color.  You can set a
preferred direction by layer, though.

> and to have this 100% enforced?

No, but it can be a strong suggestion.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\08@090729 by Will

flavicon
face
> You're asking a lot of basic Eagle questions in a short time.  While we're
> willing to help, you also have to do your part and
>
>                       *** READ THE MANUAL ***
>

I did not find these things, but I _will_ try again.

> > When performing auto route, is it possible to disallow diagonal tracks.
>
> Yes.
>
> > When performing auto route is it possible to force all red tracks to be
> > in one direction, and all blue track in the other direction,
>
> No, you can't set these parameters by display color.  You can set a
> preferred direction by layer, though.

I thought color and layer are the same thing
Red=layer1
Blue=layer16
Basically, because I am using a strip board, all my tracks are in one
direction. I can remove tracks with a face cutter, but I can't do
diagonal, and all tracks in opposite direction must be implemented
as a wire component on the "red" side.


>
> > and to have this 100% enforced?
>
> No, but it can be a strong suggestion.

I really must enforce this, as I am using a vero board, there is no
other way.

2006\03\08@094326 by Robert Young

picon face
> >
> > > When performing auto route is it possible to force all
> red tracks to
> > > be in one direction, and all blue track in the other direction,
> >
> > No, you can't set these parameters by display color.  You can set a
> > preferred direction by layer, though.
>
> I thought color and layer are the same thing
> Red=layer1
> Blue=layer16
> Basically, because I am using a strip board, all my tracks
> are in one direction. I can remove tracks with a face cutter,
> but I can't do diagonal, and all tracks in opposite direction
> must be implemented as a wire component on the "red" side.
>

You can change the colors and even layer names so it would not be a good
idea to refer to traces by color.  Referring to them by layer number
would be best.  

>
> >
> > > and to have this 100% enforced?
> >
> > No, but it can be a strong suggestion.
>
> I really must enforce this, as I am using a Vero board, there
> is no other way.

Olin is right in that it isn't a 100% hard and fast rule for the
autorouter (which isn't that great to begin with) but if you are patient
with it and go back post-autoroute and clean up it will be fine.

If you are going to the trouble of routing a circuit board, why not just
skip the Vero board altogether and have a "real" PCB made.  Lots of
inexpensive sources, Olimex, barebones, pcbexpress and the list goes on.
Or even etch it yourself, or get a used PCB mill from eBay.

Cadsoft used to have a nice tutorial file on their page.  It makes a
good companion to the manual.

Rob

2006\03\08@100441 by olin piclist

face picon face
Will wrote:
> I thought color and layer are the same thing
> Red=layer1
> Blue=layer16

No, that's just the default mapping.  For example, my GRID_BRD ULP changes
these to shades of gray for making an assembly drawing.  I also have a
script COLORS_BOARD that puts the colors back to the defaults I'm used to.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\08@104049 by Will

flavicon
face

> Olin is right in that it isn't a 100% hard and fast rule for the
> autorouter (which isn't that great to begin with) but if you are patient
> with it and go back post-autoroute and clean up it will be fine.

I still can't find how to disallow diagonal lines...

>
> If you are going to the trouble of routing a circuit board, why not just
> skip the Vero board altogether and have a "real" PCB made.  Lots of
> inexpensive sources, Olimex, barebones, pcbexpress and the list goes on.
> Or even etch it yourself, or get a used PCB mill from eBay.
>
> Cadsoft used to have a nice tutorial file on their page.  It makes a
> good companion to the manual.

Because even the cheap ones will be more expensive than a vero
board, and I am not into production, so why would I want to
waste my time on professional boards?

>
> Rob

2006\03\08@105917 by Robert Young

picon face
>
>
> > Olin is right in that it isn't a 100% hard and fast rule for the
> > autorouter (which isn't that great to begin with) but if you are
> > patient with it and go back post-autoroute and clean up it will be
> > fine.
>
> I still can't find how to disallow diagonal lines...

You do it by setting the "cost" for each of the autoroute passes
(Busses, Route, Optimize1, etc) Key cost variables will be NonPref,
ChangeDir, OrthStep, DiagStep, ExtStep, BonusStep.  I don't know what
version of Eagle you have but for mine (4.13 professional) this is all
covered starting on page 137 of the printed manual.

{Quote hidden}

At what rate do you value your time?  If you value it at $0/hr then a
Vero board will be less expensive.  But if you value your time at
something like $30/hr or $50/hr then spending time cutting pads and
fiddling with the Vero board and the autorouter settings can be more
expensive than a ~$40 2 layer board.  And you aren't restricting
yourself to PTH parts or trying to find clever ways to mount SMT parts
on a Vero board.

But your time is your own so do as you wish.

Rob

2006\03\08@112015 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Because even the cheap ones will be more expensive than a vero
> board, and I am not into production, so why would I want to
> waste my time on professional boards?

waste your time => use veroboard
waste your money => use a PCB house

Personally (or should that be: professionally?) I use plug-in
breadboards for a first attempt, if and when it works I Eagle/Olimex
(there should be a verb for that).

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\03\08@114502 by Robert Young

picon face
>
> Personally (or should that be: professionally?) I use plug-in
> breadboards for a first attempt, if and when it works I
> Eagle/Olimex (there should be a verb for that).
>

Stepping of the precipice at the edge of the on-topic cliff...

Ealimex?

Oligle?

Rob

2006\03\08@115257 by olin piclist

face picon face
Will wrote:
> I still can't find how to disallow diagonal lines...

Set the cost for diagonal steps and non-preferred direction really high.
You have to make sure the preferred direction for that layer is set to what
you want, of course.

> Because even the cheap ones will be more expensive than a vero
> board, and I am not into production,

What is a Vero board?  I can't picture something between a breadboard and an
arbitrary circuit board where routing in Eagle is still a useful thing.  If
these tracks are already existing, how is routing in Eagle going to help.

> so why would I want to waste my time on professional boards?

Since you've already decided that it's a waste of time it leads me to
believe any advice I would give in this area would also be a waste of time,
so I won't.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\08@123236 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
Eagimex or eaglimex

-Adam

On 3/8/06, Robert Young <KILLspamrwybeakerspamBeGonespamhotmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\03\08@123614 by Paul van der Linden

face
flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The problem with that, is that there isn't always an non-smd component
available. I recently became interrested in FPGA's which are all smd
components. That won't fit in a breadboard.

2006\03\08@133036 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

Veroboard is a brand name for stripboard, very popular (or used to be) in Europe, but apparently virtualy unheard of in the US.

Regards

Mike

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2006\03\08@134018 by David VanHorn

picon face
Ogle!

2006\03\08@135913 by Danny Sauer

flavicon
face
David wrote regarding 'Re: [EE] Eagle question' on Wed, Mar 08 at 12:48:
> Ogle!

http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/dvd/ ?

2006\03\08@140233 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 8, 2006, at 9:36 AM, Paul van der Linden wrote:

> The problem with that, is that there isn't always an non-smd component
> available. I recently became interrested in FPGA's which are all smd
> components. That won't fit in a breadboard.
>
SMD components won't fit on a veroboard, either (certainly not
WELL, anyway.)

Getting Eagle to (nearly) generate veroboard layout/routes would be a
reasonably useful thing, IMO.  But I don't expect it would be easy.
I have some eagle PCBs made BASED on veroboard layouts; perhaps
I'll give it a try...

BillW

2006\03\08@140458 by Will

flavicon
face
> > I still can't find how to disallow diagonal lines...
>
> Set the cost for diagonal steps and non-preferred direction really high.
> You have to make sure the preferred direction for that layer is set to
what
> you want, of course.

But I don't understand which one, I get a popup windows with many tabs
such as general, busses, route, optimize1, ..2  ..3   ..4
all those tab windows have a diagstep parameter. I tried increasing the
value from 3 to 30, and all I got was that now everything goes diagonally.
Then I tried setting it to zero, and again, all routes are diagonal?

>
> > Because even the cheap ones will be more expensive than a vero
> > board, and I am not into production,
>
> What is a Vero board?  I can't picture something between a breadboard and
an
> arbitrary circuit board where routing in Eagle is still a useful thing.
If
> these tracks are already existing, how is routing in Eagle going to help.

I am using eagle to print the top view (red print) onto the board, this will
show me where to put my parts, where to put the "red" wires, and where
to cut wires on the other side. It gives the vero a prefessional look.

>
> > so why would I want to waste my time on professional boards?
>
> Since you've already decided that it's a waste of time it leads me to
> believe any advice I would give in this area would also be a waste of
time,
> so I won't.

What I meant was that I prefere to use a vero because I only have a few
components and just one small IC, it should be done in a few hours.

2006\03\08@140725 by olin piclist

face picon face
Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
> Veroboard is a brand name for stripboard, very popular (or used to be)
> in Europe, but apparently virtualy unheard of in the US.

But doesn't that have pads prewired in strips of 5 or whatever.  How is
routing anything in Eagle going to help?  Isn't the OP going to manually
connect the strips?


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\08@141012 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 3/8/06, Olin Lathrop <spamBeGoneolin_piclistspamKILLspamembedinc.com> wrote:
> What is a Vero board?  I can't picture something between a breadboard and an
> arbitrary circuit board where routing in Eagle is still a useful thing.  If
> these tracks are already existing, how is routing in Eagle going to help.

It's a one layer PCB with holes on 0.1" centers covering the board.
The copper side is all vertical (or all horizontal) traces.

If you develop your PCB layout with all vertical traces on the bottom,
and all horizontal traces on the top, then you can make any PCB with
veroboard and jumpers (to implement the top layer).  You cut through
traces on the bottom to break them into shorter runs.

As with any complex PCB design this can be tedious to design by hand,
so restricting an autorouter to produce designs that can be easily
implemented on veroboard makes sense.

A good example of veroboard construction can be had here:
http://www.smspower.org/smsreader/prepare.html

-Adam

2006\03\08@141951 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Paul van der Linden wrote:
>> Personally (or should that be: professionally?) I use plug-in
>> breadboards for a first attempt, if and when it works I Eagle/Olimex
>> (there should be a verb for that).
>
> The problem with that, is that there isn't always an non-smd component
> available. I recently became interrested in FPGA's which are all smd
> components. That won't fit in a breadboard.

You can always use an adapter board.

Although personally, I only breadboard small "risky" parts of a design.
Since we usually check the schematic and the PCB layout carefully, there are
only one or maybe two mistakes in the first prototype. I prefer to cut
traces and greenwire the PCB, rather than breadboard a complex design on a
breadboard.

As Wouter mentioned,  it's always a tradeoff between time and money.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2006\03\08@143518 by olin piclist

face picon face
M. Adam Davis wrote:
> A good example of veroboard construction can be had here:
> http://www.smspower.org/smsreader/prepare.html

I still don't understand.  These pictures show strips on one side and
nothing on the other.  So the bare side is going to be implemented with
jumpers anyway which are not restricted to any particular direction and can
cross over each other, unlike routing in an Eagle plane.

The OP said this was a "simple" one-off test, so why not just wire it by
hand?  He'd be done by now.  Or go all the way and make a PCB.  How is
anything on one of these boards going to have the "professional" look he
says he wants?


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2006\03\09@003821 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 3/8/06, Wouter van Ooijen <.....wouterspam_OUTspamvoti.nl> wrote:
> > Because even the cheap ones will be more expensive than a vero
> > board, and I am not into production, so why would I want to
> > waste my time on professional boards?
>
> waste your time => use veroboard
> waste your money => use a PCB house

 waste your money once => buy your inhouse PCB maker device

>
> Personally (or should that be: professionally?) I use plug-in
> breadboards for a first attempt, if and when it works I Eagle/Olimex
> (there should be a verb for that).

Eaglex or poor's man pcb house ?

greetings,
Vasile

2006\03\09@015714 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> waste your time => use veroboard
>> waste your money => use a PCB house
>
>   waste your money once => buy your inhouse PCB maker device

waste your health => make your own PCBs?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\03\09@015715 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> The problem with that, is that there isn't always an non-smd
> component
> available. I recently became interrested in FPGA's which are all smd
> components. That won't fit in a breadboard.

For an FPGA with 100+ pins a breadboard might not be a good idea (note:
trimming the message you reply to is definitely a good idea!). But in
general SMD components can be used in breadboards with an appropriate
SMD-to-DIP PCB. If none exist you can always Ealimex one.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\03\09@050344 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>But doesn't that have pads prewired in strips
>of 5 or whatever.

No they are continuous strips the length of the board.

>How is routing anything in Eagle going to help?

I don't really think it is, but I guess it allows him to draw the circuit
and attempt to do a layout with only vertical and horizontal traces. Not
sure that it will do efficient traces though.

>Isn't the OP going to manually connect the strips?

Yes, what he is looking to do is have the bottom layer as the copper strips
on the board, and the top layer as the jumper wires. So what he needs to do
is set the thing to 0.1" pitch for each, but I suspect he is going to have
to use insulated wire anyway.

I cannot figure out how other components are going to get laid out either,
unless he has a heap of footprints for C's and R's with different hole
spacings on the footprints. Otherwise there will be excess jumpers to work
to standard footprints.

2006\03\09@063922 by blackcat

face picon face



>> waste your time => use veroboard
>> waste your money => use a PCB house
>
>   waste your money once => buy your inhouse PCB maker device

waste your health => make your own PCBs?

waste your mind => go into design, engineering and programming.. xxx000



2006\03\09@073350 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 3/9/06, Wouter van Ooijen <TakeThisOuTwouter.....spamTakeThisOuTvoti.nl> wrote:
> >> waste your time => use veroboard
> >> waste your money => use a PCB house
> >
> >   waste your money once => buy your inhouse PCB maker device
>
> waste your health => make your own PCBs?
good  :)

Notice I didn't said "homebrew". I said inhouse (with proffesional tools).

Vasile

2006\03\09@100856 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >> waste your time => use veroboard
> >> waste your money => use a PCB house
> >
> >   waste your money once => buy your inhouse PCB maker device
>
> waste your health => make your own PCBs?
>
> waste your mind => go into design, engineering and
> programming.. xxx000

of course 'go into' is bad, you should use a structured programming
construct!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2006\03\09@123919 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 9, 2006, at 4:33 AM, Vasile Surducan wrote:

> waste your money once => buy your inhouse PCB maker device
>
When stripboard WORKS, I think it tends to go faster than easier
than any actual PCB manufacturing process.  (The holes are pre-drilled,
the "cuts" made tend to be fewer than the holes you'd have to drill
on a real PCB, and there's no etch step at all.)  (I HAVE the inhouse
PCB maker device (an LPKF), and while it's quicker than going out,
I wouldn't want to race someone with a finished stripboard design
from "design done" to "assembled board.")

BillW

2006\03\09@125515 by Peter

picon face


On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
>> Veroboard is a brand name for stripboard, very popular (or used to be)
>> in Europe, but apparently virtualy unheard of in the US.
>
> But doesn't that have pads prewired in strips of 5 or whatever.  How is
> routing anything in Eagle going to help?  Isn't the OP going to manually
> connect the strips?

If one forces the layout program to make only vertical connections on
the component side and only horizontal on the layout side, with a
sizeable modulus (=0.1"), then one can 'convert' the resulting layout
into traces to be cut on the back and wire bridges to be put in on the
front.

There exists a layout program that generates layouts specifically for
Veroboards (in color). I do not remember what it is called.

Peter

2006\03\09@131020 by John Nall

picon face
Peter wrote:
> > There exists a layout program that generates layouts specifically for
> Veroboards (in color). I do not remember what it is called.
>
>  
LochMaster 3.0 perhaps?  (I've never used it, but it is mentioned at the
WinPicProg website as being used to help design for stripboard).

John

2006\03\10@005325 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
On 3/9/06, William Chops Westfield <TakeThisOuTwestfwKILLspamspamspammac.com> wrote:
>
> On Mar 9, 2006, at 4:33 AM, Vasile Surducan wrote:
>
> > waste your money once => buy your inhouse PCB maker device
> >
> When stripboard WORKS, I think it tends to go faster than easier
> than any actual PCB manufacturing process.

This time I think you wrong. How many packages may be used these days
on 2.54 (100mil) raster. I'm talking about real electronics on SMD or
microwave with high desities and high frequencies.

http://www.lpkf.com/products/rapid-pcb-prototyping/circuit-board-plotter/protomat-s-series/s62/index.htm

you have a demo movie about speed there

greetings,
Vasile


'[EE] Eagle Question'
2006\09\21@000332 by grammmvic
flavicon
face
When I change some pad diameters and pad holes of say a crystal, they look
OK relative to other pads etc on my board layout.



When I print my board layout, the pads and pad holes for the crystal do not
reflect my changes?



Also, I still don't get the restring parameter..Can the problem above be due
to an incorrect restring parameter value?  



Any help would be appreciated



--Grahame

2006\09\21@153612 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
It's a bug. You have to run drill-aid.ulp.
or to switch to a *real* CAD package.

Vasile



On 9/21/06, grammmvic <.....grammmvicspamRemoveMEbigpond.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\09\21@161017 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Sep 21, 2006, at 3:33 AM, Vasile Surducan wrote:

>> When I change some pad diameters and pad holes of say a crystal,
>> they look OK relative to other pads etc on my board layout.
>>
>> When I print my board layout, the pads and pad holes for the
>> crystal do not reflect my changes?
>>
> It's a bug.

In what version?  (and what version is the OP running?)

and exactly how are you changing the diameters, and how
are you printing?

It seems to work OK for me, running 4.15 on MacOSX, changing
package pad sizes with restring and via hole sizes with "change
drill."

BillW

2006\09\26@142347 by alan smith

picon face
Works for me also.  Real CAD package? Hmmm......define real.  SmartWork was real but not a very good one.  PADs is real, but has issues....
 
 Every package has quirks...just have to know them.

William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwspamspamBeGonemac.com> wrote:
 
On Sep 21, 2006, at 3:33 AM, Vasile Surducan wrote:

>> When I change some pad diameters and pad holes of say a crystal,
>> they look OK relative to other pads etc on my board layout.
>>
>> When I print my board layout, the pads and pad holes for the
>> crystal do not reflect my changes?
>>
> It's a bug.

In what version? (and what version is the OP running?)

and exactly how are you changing the diameters, and how
are you printing?

It seems to work OK for me, running 4.15 on MacOSX, changing
package pad sizes with restring and via hole sizes with "change
drill."

BillW


'[EE] Eagle question'
2006\11\21@205405 by Martin K
flavicon
face
All,
I have been trying to figure out how to move an SMD part from the top
layer to the bottom layer. I'm sure it's described somewhere but I can't
find out how it is done.
I'd appreciate the help.
Thanks,
Martin Klingensmith

2006\11\21@212859 by Jinx

face picon face

> I have been trying to figure out how to move an SMD part from
> the top layer to the bottom layer. I'm sure it's described somewhere
> but I can't find out how it is done.

Mouse-wheel or middle button. If you have one

2006\11\21@213325 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
Use the "mirror" function. It's the fourth down button from the top
left corner of the left sidebar.

Cheers,
Zik

On 11/22/06, Martin K <spamBeGonemartin-distlists@spam@spamspam_OUTnnytech.net> wrote:
> All,
> I have been trying to figure out how to move an SMD part from the top
> layer to the bottom layer. I'm sure it's described somewhere but I can't
> find out how it is done.
> I'd appreciate the help.
> Thanks,
> Martin Klingensmith
> -

2006\11\21@214122 by David P. Harris

picon face
Martin K wrote:

>All,
>I have been trying to figure out how to move an SMD part from the top
>layer to the bottom layer. I'm sure it's described somewhere but I can't
>find out how it is done.
>I'd appreciate the help.
>Thanks,
>Martin Klingensmith
>  
>
Use mirror.

David

2006\11\21@215122 by Martin K

flavicon
face
Thanks a lot Jinx, Zik, David, and future replies.
I wouldn't have guessed the mirror function changed layers.
--
Martin K

David P. Harris wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2006\11\21@224451 by Jason

flavicon
face
I've been designing my first SMT PCB.  I forgot I could use both sides for
components so you just shrunk my board in half :).  It's so small it's just
amazing.  I'm being careful to stick with 1206 components and a 10f PIC.
since I'll be hand-soldering it.

Is there a way to make the silk screen labels smaller though?  The labels
are as big as the components and overlapping each other quite badly.


From: "Martin K" <TakeThisOuTmartin-distlistsspamspamnnytech.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:51 PM


> Thanks a lot Jinx, Zik, David, and future replies.
> I wouldn't have guessed the mirror function changed layers.


2006\11\21@231227 by Martin K

flavicon
face
You're welcome :-)
I'm sticking to 1206 parts as well because they are much easier to place
by hand than the smaller parts. I have a bad habit of getting 0805 parts
offset a little bit so they short out.
SMT diodes and caps save a lot of space.

Good luck.
--
Martin K

Jason wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2006\11\21@234950 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
Jason wrote:
> Is there a way to make the silk screen labels smaller though?  
>  
Change (the wrench icon) size.
You also may want to "smash" some components so you can move their
reference designators around separately.

Carey

2006\11\22@125626 by Shawn Wilton

picon face
I've had no problem doing 0603 components reliably.  It gets difficult when
you try QFN parts.  Those require a stencil and must be reflowed, or put the
heat gun to them.  Something I've found that works for me is pre-tinning the
pads on the board so you can apply the part, put heat to the pin and it
should wick the solder up the pin giving you a satisfactory joint.


On 11/21/06, Martin K <RemoveMEmartin-distlistsEraseMEspamspam_OUTnnytech.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\22@142317 by Vitaliy

picon face
Shawn Wilton wrote:
> I've had no problem doing 0603 components reliably.  It gets difficult
> when
> you try QFN parts.  Those require a stencil and must be reflowed, or put
> the
> heat gun to them.  Something I've found that works for me is pre-tinning
> the
> pads on the board so you can apply the part, put heat to the pin and it
> should wick the solder up the pin giving you a satisfactory joint.

Have you tried baking your PCBs, instead of hand-soldering? We use a regular
$20 toaster oven at work, and it works perfectly for prototypes and single
boards. Sure beats soldering SSOPs by hand. :)

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2006\11\22@142534 by Matt Pobursky

flavicon
face
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 09:56:21 -0800, Shawn Wilton wrote:
> I've had no problem doing 0603 components reliably.  It gets
> difficult when you try QFN parts.  Those require a stencil and must
> be reflowed, or put the heat gun to them.  Something I've found
> that works for me is pre-tinning the pads on the board so you can
> apply the part, put heat to the pin and it should wick the solder
> up the pin giving you a satisfactory joint.

If you know you're going to hand solder the QFN parts, it helps a lot
to make the pads extend beyond the body an extra 0.02 to 0.025" in
your PCB layout. It gives you more pad to hit with a very small tip
when soldering.

One other trick that works is to use 2 or 4 vias in the center "power
pad" of the device. Solder the pins as you normally would and then
solder the pad from the back side of the PCB. This only works if the
vias are not connected to an internal ground plane, then you'd have
to reflow them to get sufficient heating to solder the pad.

I've also had really good luck soldering small prototype PCBs in my
SMD "reflow skillet". It works really well for QFN packages. If you don't
know what the SMD reflow skillet  is all about, you can check it out at:

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=Reflow%20Skillet

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems




2006\11\22@143832 by Martin K

flavicon
face
You have to make/buy stencils though and get the solder paste right?
That would be pretty convenient if I was making many boards.
--
Martin K

Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2006\11\22@145608 by Shawn Wilton

picon face
Yeah, that's actually how I do it.  But sometimes you have to rework a part,
hence the pad tinning.  It's just too much time and work to reflow a board
for one part when it's double sided.  :-)


On 11/22/06, Vitaliy <EraseMEpiclist.accountspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\22@145827 by Shawn Wilton

picon face
Yes.  Stencils come in two varieties.  Mylar, and Stainless steel.  The
stainless is by far the way to go, but those are around $150-$200 a piece
versus $50 for the mylar stencil.  If you're pin pitch is large enough, then
you can go Mylar.  I would not attempt making my own stencil.

Solder paste will do many small (3"x4") boards.  I have done probably 30
boards for various projects and I'm down no more than 1/4 of my first jar of
paste.

On 11/22/06, Martin K <@spam@martin-distlistsspam_OUTspam.....nnytech.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\22@152350 by Tim

picon face
Martin K wrote:
> You have to make/buy stencils though and get the solder paste right?
> That would be pretty convenient if I was making many boards.
> --
> Martin K

Cash Olsen <http://www.zianet.com/erg/ShopSolderPaste.html> sells
small quantities of solder paste in small syringes for prototyping.
You manually apply it to each pad instead of using a stencil.

He also describes an economical heat embossing gun that can be
purchased at craft supply stores that can be used to so some
rework/reflow operations for those on a budget.

Tim

2006\11\22@160044 by Vitaliy

picon face
> On 11/22/06, Martin K <spamBeGonemartin-distlistsEraseMEspamnnytech.net> wrote:
>> You have to make/buy stencils though and get the solder paste right?
>> That would be pretty convenient if I was making many boards.

Shawn Wilton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

No, we do not use stencils, because normally we only make one or two
prototypes before a design goes into production. So I just take the syringe,
and apply solder paste direcly to each pad. And the small syringe of solder
paste that we bought from Digikey seems to last forever.

See this page: http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm

Best regards,

Vitaliy


2006\11\22@170713 by Marc Nicholas

picon face
I do exactly the same with a syringe of Kester and a hotplate.

-marc

On 11/22/06, Vitaliy <piclist.accountspamBeGonespamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\22@180524 by David P Harris

picon face
Marc Nicholas wrote:

>I do exactly the same with a syringe of Kester and a hotplate.
>
>-marc
>  
>
Tell us more...

David


2006\11\22@214836 by Zik Saleeba

face picon face
Has anyone had any luck with BGAs? I'd love to use a BGA in a project
I have coming up but I'll be forced to use something else if I can't
solder it. Has anyone tried the "reflow skillet" with 200+ ball BGAs
for instance?

Cheers,
Zik

On 11/23/06, Tim <.....tim.n9puz@spam@spamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\23@012641 by Shawn Wilton

picon face
Oh man.  I do NOT have the patience for doing a few hundred pads with a
syringe...<cringe>


On 11/22/06, Vitaliy <.....piclist.accountRemoveMEspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\23@030128 by Vitaliy

picon face
Shawn Wilton wrote:
> Oh man.  I do NOT have the patience for doing a few hundred pads with a
> syringe...<cringe>

Have you ever tried it?

It sounds scary, but consider that it's faster than soldering the same
number of pads. And 300 pads at 1 second/pad is only 5 minutes. FINE, do it
*very* slowly and carefully at first, 3 seconds per pad. Still only 15
minutes.

Doing fine-pitch ICs is the easiest of all: you don't apply the paste to
each pad individually, just squeeze it toothpaste-style from pad 1 to pad
20.

Vitaliy

2006\11\23@030735 by Vitaliy

picon face
David P Harris wrote:
> Marc Nicholas wrote:
>>I do exactly the same with a syringe of Kester and a hotplate.
>
> Tell us more...

See Sparkfun's website:
http://www.sparkfun.com/tutorial/ReflowToaster/reflow-hotplate.htm#Hot-Plate

I haven't actually tried the hot plate, but what this guy says makes sense:

http://openhardware.net/Misc_Stuff/ToasterSMD/#donotfry

"I don't like fry pans!

I suggest that you don't even bother with this technique. I am convinced
that the electric fry pan method is nothing more than a convection heat
method to melt the solder with some conductive heating of the PCB to act as
a preheater. From what I remember about my test with a 5inch X 8inch board,
on the electric stove with a large aluminum slab to place the PCB on, is the
smell of charred fiberglass resin!

Use the toaster oven technique, it is so much easier and you can control the
heat more precisely than with an electric skillet. Also, if you notice, the
boards that Sparkfun is using on the skillet are relatively small boards? I
believe this is why they are getting convection heat to melt the paste."

Plus, a toaster oven is safer. Would you want a fry pan on your desk? I have
enough burns from my 30W soldering iron, thank you.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2006\11\23@225525 by Shawn Wilton

picon face
You're not understanding.  I don't hand solder either.  I don't have the
patience.


On 11/23/06, Vitaliy <piclist.accountEraseMEspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\24@070621 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
Well, for couple of SMD stuff it worth the effort of these kind of
techniques for sure. I was just wondering that I may be a slow on this a bit
but I can't produce faster than let's say 6 pieces in an hour soldering only
one SOT23-6, a 0402 capacitor and 12 awg23 cables or connectors as a surface
mounted ie to soldering pads by my bare hands. Most of the time spending
with checking, double checking if there is a shortcut or open legs using a
6x and a 20x magnifier. So I was just thinking that a hotplate may not help
on speeding this much further as I still have to do the QA? I would trust
more on a company who has the proper machine, what do you recon?

Thanks,
Tamas



On 11/24/06, Shawn Wilton <RemoveMEblack9spamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2006\11\24@224842 by Vitaliy

picon face
Shawn Wilton wrote (top posting fixed):
>> > Oh man.  I do NOT have the patience for doing a few hundred pads with a
>> > syringe...<cringe>
>>
>> Have you ever tried it?
>>
>> It sounds scary, but consider that it's faster than soldering the same
>> number of pads. And 300 pads at 1 second/pad is only 5 minutes. FINE, do
>> it
>> *very* slowly and carefully at first, 3 seconds per pad. Still only 15
>> minutes.

>
> You're not understanding.  I don't hand solder either.  I don't have the
> patience.

But you do have the patience to order the stencils, and wait for several
days for them to arrive in the mail? Even for a small board, with only a few
SMDs?

You're right -- I'm not understanding. :)

Vitaliy

2006\11\24@230133 by Vitaliy

picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:
> Well, for couple of SMD stuff it worth the effort of these kind of
> techniques for sure. I was just wondering that I may be a slow on this a
> bit
> but I can't produce faster than let's say 6 pieces in an hour soldering
> only
> one SOT23-6, a 0402 capacitor and 12 awg23 cables or connectors as a
> surface
> mounted ie to soldering pads by my bare hands. Most of the time spending
> with checking, double checking if there is a shortcut or open legs using a
> 6x and a 20x magnifier. So I was just thinking that a hotplate may not
> help
> on speeding this much further as I still have to do the QA? I would trust
> more on a company who has the proper machine, what do you recon?

With enough practice, it's possible to solder very high-pitch parts and not
get a solder bridge. The nice thing about the reflow process, is that parts
tend to center themselves on the pads due to surface tension.

Also consider that you can bake several boards at a time, so you save
yourself a lot of time and effort by not having to hand-solder each pad. If
you need to make more than a few boards, Shawn's suggestion to use a stencil
starts to make sense.

Whenever we need more than a few prototypes built, we use Advanced Assembly.
They're pricey, though -- last time we paid $50+ per board for 10 small
boards.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2006\11\25@015939 by Shawn Wilton

picon face
The stencil arrives when the boards and parts arrive.

On 11/24/06, Vitaliy <piclist.accountspam_OUTspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2006\11\27@151537 by Vitaliy

picon face
Shawn Wilton wrote:
> The stencil arrives when the boards and parts arrive.

Hmmm... that's interesting. If you don't mind me asking, what company do you
use?

Best regards,

Vitaliy

2006\11\27@224325 by Shawn Wilton

picon face
stencilsunlimited, or advancedpcb.

Doesn't take more than a few days to get a stencil.  I order the stencil on
Monday, and I have it by Wednesday or Thursday at the latest.




On 11/27/06, Vitaliy <spamBeGonepiclist.account@spam@spamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -


'[EE] EAGLE Question'
2007\01\08@210119 by Paul Anderson
face picon face
I probably have this miscatagorized, and apologize if this is so.  I
have EAGLE Lite 4.16r2, and I've been working with getting a feel for
it.  Does anyone have suggestions for using EAGLE to produce PCB
artwork that I can etch myself?

--
Paul Anderson
VE3HOP
RemoveMEwackyvorlonEraseMEspamKILLspamgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com

2007\01\08@211852 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Is your question on:
1: Using Eagle - Can't help much there, just finished first board with
FREEPCB, but
probably best to make a schematic first, I'll try TinyCad for next
board, then import to the FREEPCB the netlist. View Gerbers with
GC-PREVUE and/or VIEWMATE, and print output from there. Previously used
Autocad to make print output.
2: From the end of Eagle to getting ready to etch: Need Laser printer or
copier (not any other process including inkjet) on glossy paper, iron on
to clean board. (and I'm simplifing a little)
3: The etching process: Ferric chloride seems better than Sulfuric acid
and Hydrigen Peroxide. Caution the process gives off some chlorine.  In
the workshop the chlorine will combine with any iron it finds causing
rusting!

Say what area you need help.

Paul Anderson wrote:
> I probably have this miscatagorized, and apologize if this is so.  I
> have EAGLE Lite 4.16r2, and I've been working with getting a feel for
> it.  Does anyone have suggestions for using EAGLE to produce PCB
> artwork that I can etch myself?
>
>  

2007\01\08@213513 by Paul Anderson

face picon face
On 1/8/07, Carl Denk <spamBeGonecdenkspam_OUTspamRemoveMEalltel.net> wrote:
> Is your question on:
> 1: Using Eagle - Can't help much there, just finished first board with
> FREEPCB, but
> probably best to make a schematic first, I'll try TinyCad for next
> board, then import to the FREEPCB the netlist. View Gerbers with
> GC-PREVUE and/or VIEWMATE, and print output from there. Previously used
> Autocad to make print output.
>
>
It would be the first I need help with.  Still learning the program,
though it seems to be better than some of the others I've tried.



--
Paul Anderson
VE3HOP
.....wackyvorlonspamRemoveMEgmail.com
http://www.oldschoolhacker.com

2007\01\08@221203 by Jinx

face picon face


> I probably have this miscatagorized, and apologize if this is so.  I
> have EAGLE Lite 4.16r2, and I've been working with getting a
> feel for it.  Does anyone have suggestions for using EAGLE to
> produce PCB artwork that I can etch myself?

You can output the board as a monochrome .tiff from the CAM
Processor. This can then be printed onto a transparency for UV
exposure or onto paper for the iron-on transfer method. Many
people here have experimented with this (perhaps not directly
from Eagle though but from other drawing packages) and there
are Yahoo groups and similar for home-brew etching methods

2007\01\08@222233 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:01 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:

> have EAGLE Lite 4.16r2, and I've been working with getting a feel for
> it.  Does anyone have suggestions for using EAGLE to produce PCB
> artwork that I can etch myself?
>
I made an "Instructable" on just that topic:

http://www.instructables.com/id/EZVIGHUBGCEP287BJB/

I also did a couple of general tutorials aimed specifically at
EAGLE beginners:

Schematic entry:   www.instructables.com/id/EXU9BO166NEQHO8XFU/
Schematic to PCB:  http://www.instructables.com/id/EZ3WN1QUKYES9J5X48/

And someone else did one on creating library parts:
http://www.instructables.com/id/ERHQQ180Y3EP286NQY/

BillW

2007\01\09@011958 by Orin Eman

picon face
On 1/8/07, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlonspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
> I probably have this miscatagorized, and apologize if this is so.  I
> have EAGLE Lite 4.16r2, and I've been working with getting a feel for
> it.  Does anyone have suggestions for using EAGLE to produce PCB
> artwork that I can etch myself?

If it's the Windows version, what's wrong with File/Print?

I get great results from 4.16r1 with an inkjet printer and
transparancies as follows:

Display only the layer/pads you want artwork for
Select the File/Print menu item
Select Black under style, scale factor 1
Hit the Page... button and turn off Caption, fiddle with border and
alignment to put the image where you want it*, hit OK.
Hit the Printer... button and set paper type and printer resolution
(trial and error here, you'll have to experiment with these settings
whatever method you use for printing your artwork), hit OK
Make sure the right paper/transparancy is in the printer and hit OK

*for small designs, I re-use transparancies and print the image in a
blank area... this does require some care at not getting finger prints
all over the transparancy while using it...

I had poor results with the Linux version, BUT that was due to the
printer driver being stuck in a draft mode.  I've not tried since I
fixed the printer settings, but see no reason it wouldn't do as well
as the Windows version now.

Orin.

2007\01\09@013839 by Bob Blick

face picon face
Hi Paul,

Not an Eagle-specific tip, but:

Make copies of the library parts you are going to use, and change the
pad types of your through-hole parts to "annular". That's the type of
pad that has a hole in the center. When you drill the board, it'll act
like a center punch and keep the drill bit centered.

Cheerful regards,

Bob


Paul Anderson wrote:
> I probably have this miscatagorized, and apologize if this is so.  I
> have EAGLE Lite 4.16r2, and I've been working with getting a feel for
> it.  Does anyone have suggestions for using EAGLE to produce PCB
> artwork that I can etch myself?
>

2007\01\09@021841 by Orin Eman

picon face
On 1/8/07, Bob Blick <EraseMEbblickRemoveMEspamSTOPspamsonic.net> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Not an Eagle-specific tip, but:
>
> Make copies of the library parts you are going to use, and change the
> pad types of your through-hole parts to "annular". That's the type of
> pad that has a hole in the center. When you drill the board, it'll act
> like a center punch and keep the drill bit centered.

Yes, I do the equivalent on Eagle, but for the whole board...

In the board editor, under the Options/Set... menu item, select the
Misc tab and select the Real button under Display mode (the
alternative is No drills).

Orin.

2007\01\09@034044 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

>> Make copies of the library parts you are going to use, and change the
>> pad types of your through-hole parts to "annular". That's the type of
>> pad that has a hole in the center. When you drill the board, it'll act
>> like a center punch and keep the drill bit centered.
>>
THere's also an EAGLE ULP "drill-aid" that will generate pseudo-pads
within the pads and vias that have a smaller internal diameter.

BillW

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