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'[EE]:: Hotmelt adhesive for heavy component retent'
\\@a by Trevor

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RussellMc wrote on 31/01/2019 21:52:
> So - again:  Does anyone successfully use hotmelt  adhesives to retain
> larger components in place mechanically, with no bond failures over
> lifetimes of many years? If so, please comment.
> Brand, type, application results, ... .

Not PCB components, but to reattach a power cord lug on a Hoover vacuum cleaner. Generic HMG bought from the local Chinese $2 shop (Australia). The bond is till going strong some 5 years later.

Less successful uses of HMG in commercial (Chinese) products like solar lights is usually a disaster with the HMG melting in the sun.

For hobby PCBs I have in the past used silicone to attach transformers with success.
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'[EE]:: Hotmelt adhesive for heavy component retent'
2019\01\01@130032 by Dwayne Reid
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Hi there, Russell.

I have used Holt Melt Adhesive to hold heavy objects with varying degrees of success.

The old 'original' holt-melt is not good for long-term use.  I'm talking about the glue from 30 or 40 years ago (I still have some <grin>).  The problem with this glue is that it is hard and not flexible.

The modern cheap Chinese-made hot-melt from from Dollar Stores is actually not bad.  It is much softer and more flexible.  It also seems to hold better.

As has been mentioned by others: applying the glue to something that is warm or hot gives much better adhesion.

One interesting use of holt melt for me is to use it as a moldable form for irregularly-shaped objects.  I'm mostly talking about large cylindrical electrolytic capacitors.  What I do is attach the object with hot-melt glue and ensure the voids are completely filled.  Then I break the glue free from both the object and the surface that I'm attaching to.  This is most easily done by putting everything into the refrigerator.  Then smack the capacitor with a sharp blow, then the block of hot-melt.

The block of hot-melt breaks free quite easily.  But: now I have a perfect spacer that fits both the surface and the object.  Now, I simply glue everything back in place using cyanoacrylate (super glue).  This works very well - I'm pretty sure that I still have stuff mounted this way after decades of use.

Unfortunately, I don't have any long-term data for the modern (softer) hot-melt glue.  But you may want to consider the technique that I mentioned above.

dwayne


At 03:52 AM 1/31/2019, RussellMc wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-- Dwayne Reid   <spam_OUTdwaynerTakeThisOuTspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
780-489-3199 voice   780-487-6397 fax   888-489-3199 Toll Free
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

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2019\01\01@141641 by Peter

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I have used HMG in this way also in limited cases when wires need to be soldered to PCB, some boards are now 15+ year and going strong.

More to prevent wire breakage during handling, and use neutral cure silicon for the tougher component hold jobs though.

How HMG is applied matters as Bob says, but in saying that I rarely use it for important jobs, as I have seen it fail too!

Peter.

On 1/02/2019 5:46 am, Denny Esterline wrote:
> I have several products that have wires soldered to a PCB, that connection
> is buried under a blob of hot melt.
> For the most part this is driven by my fear of the wires being abused
> during handling and assembly rather
> than concern about forces when in use. Some of them are 10+ years old at
> this point and I haven't seen
> any noteworthy failures.
>
> -Denny
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2019\01\31@055228 by RussellMc

face picon face
Short:  Does anyone successfully use hot-melt  adhesives to retain larger
components in place mechanically, with no bond failures over lifetimes of
many years? If so, please comment.

Longer:

At various times we have had discussions on the PICList re the use of
adhesives to help locate / retain ... heavy components on PCBs.

Here and in other forums I have resolutely insisted (eg   *here
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/18533/3288>* &  *here
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/38766/3288>)* that using hot-melt
adhesive is an invitation to disaster as it does not retain its bond long
term. While this has been my observation in all cases where I have
encountered its use by others, this is clearly 'selling it short" by using
the term HM for a vast range of products, some of which SHOULD be eminently
suitable for the task.

A quickish web search turned up dozens of(apparently) good quality
references to HM and a large range of technical literature.

It seems 'obvious' that SOME hot melt adhesives would do a good job of the
'simple' task of retaining a largish component in place indefinitely, and
not losing bond strength weeks months or even years thereafter.

So - again:  Does anyone successfully use hotmelt  adhesives to retain
larger components in place mechanically, with no bond failures over
lifetimes of many years? If so, please comment.
Brand, type, application results, ... .



        Russell

_________________________________________

https://www.bond-tech-industries.com/about-us/blog/6-reasons-hot-melt-adhesive-isnt-working/

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/39803O/used-to-rigidize-large-components-on-cicuit-board-of-dryer.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0KtAAUx9VCbIDyQ7moNGGKMnFmmiAJvIIfD5FEBSjxkoQYIHqJf5jAskg


https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1245163O/3m-hot-melt-adhesive-3764-3748-technical-data-sheet.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218469708010513https://wiki2.org/en/Hot-melt_adhesive

https://www.intemag.com/images/uploads/Loctite_Hot_Melt_Technology.pdf

https://intactadhesives.com/products/adhesives/

http://www.siegeladhesives.com/heatspek-technology


https://www.google.com/search?q=3M%E2%84%A2+Scotch-Weld%E2%84%A2+Hot+Melt+Adhesive+3748&oq=3M%E2%84%A2+Scotch-Weld%E2%84%A2+Hot+Melt+Adhesive+3748&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.1453j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

http://siegeladhesives.com/industrial-assembly/

*A nice 3M adhesive guide- HM & much more*


https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/372489O/adhesives-and-tapes-design-guide.pdf


http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/44021O/3m-hot-melt-bonding-systems-guide..pdf

https://www.google.co.nz/search?num=40&q=hot+melt+adhesive+bond+failure&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj87eGrppXgAhUxKX0KHSFeDSoQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1602&bih=899

www.bostik-industrial.com/consider-automotive-hot-melt-adhesives-car-assembly/
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2019\01\31@115650 by Bob Blick

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It all depends on how it's applied, and what it's being applied to. Cold, slick surfaces are the worst. If I want hot glue to really stick, I will preheat the surface.

This especially when using the hard, hi-temp hot glue. The cheap stuff is more forgiving, possibly because the temperature of the hot glue gun is the same but the temperature at which the glue solidifies is lower, so the glue can heat up the material it is applied while still remaining liquid.

But really, there are very few places where I would use hot glue. My Venn diagram with "I'm doing a good job" and "Using hot glue" has very little intersecting area.

Cheers, Bob

________________________________________
From: .....piclist-bouncesKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu <piclist-bouncesspamKILLspammit.edu> on behalf of RussellMc <.....apptechnzKILLspamspam.....gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:52 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Cc: Jeff Finger; ApptechNZ; EraseMEkenspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTelecsyn.com
Subject: [EE]:: Hotmelt adhesive for heavy component retention

Short:  Does anyone successfully use hot-melt  adhesives to retain larger
components in place mechanically, with no bond failures over lifetimes of
many years? If so, please comment.

Longer:

At various times we have had discussions on the PICList re the use of
adhesives to help locate / retain ... heavy components on PCBs.

Here and in other forums I have resolutely insisted (eg   *here
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/18533/3288>* &  *here
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/38766/3288>)* that using hot-melt
adhesive is an invitation to disaster as it does not retain its bond long
term. While this has been my observation in all cases where I have
encountered its use by others, this is clearly 'selling it short" by using
the term HM for a vast range of products, some of which SHOULD be eminently
suitable for the task.

A quickish web search turned up dozens of(apparently) good quality
references to HM and a large range of technical literature.

It seems 'obvious' that SOME hot melt adhesives would do a good job of the
'simple' task of retaining a largish component in place indefinitely, and
not losing bond strength weeks months or even years thereafter.

So - again:  Does anyone successfully use hotmelt  adhesives to retain
larger components in place mechanically, with no bond failures over
lifetimes of many years? If so, please comment.
Brand, type, application results, ... .



        Russell

_________________________________________

https://www.bond-tech-industries.com/about-us/blog/6-reasons-hot-melt-adhesive-isnt-working/

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/39803O/used-to-rigidize-large-components-on-cicuit-board-of-dryer.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0KtAAUx9VCbIDyQ7moNGGKMnFmmiAJvIIfD5FEBSjxkoQYIHqJf5jAskg


https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1245163O/3m-hot-melt-adhesive-3764-3748-technical-data-sheet.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218469708010513https://wiki2.org/en/Hot-melt_adhesive

https://www.intemag.com/images/uploads/Loctite_Hot_Melt_Technology.pdf

https://intactadhesives.com/products/adhesives/

http://www.siegeladhesives.com/heatspek-technology


https://www.google.com/search?q=3M%E2%84%A2+Scotch-Weld%E2%84%A2+Hot+Melt+Adhesive+3748&oq=3M%E2%84%A2+Scotch-Weld%E2%84%A2+Hot+Melt+Adhesive+3748&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.1453j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

http://siegeladhesives.com/industrial-assembly/

*A nice 3M adhesive guide- HM & much more*


https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/372489O/adhesives-and-tapes-design-guide.pdf


http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/44021O/3m-hot-melt-bonding-systems-guide..pdf

https://www.google.co.nz/search?num=40&q=hot+melt+adhesive+bond+failure&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj87eGrppXgAhUxKX0KHSFeDSoQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1602&bih=899

www.bostik-industrial.com/consider-automotive-hot-melt-adhesives-car-assembly/
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

-- http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
.

2019\01\31@130605 by Jean-Paul Louis

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When I was working on Professional Audio, we were using hot melt glue to secure ALL large electrolytic capacitors to the PCB, especially in the power supply of the digital amps (up to 4kW per channel).It decreased drastically the field failure rate. Glue used was high temp melt (hard) made by 3M. I do not recall the exact part number as it was in 2007-2009.
Jean-Paul N1JPL 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

 On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 11:57 AM, Bob Blick<bobblickspamspam_OUToutlook.com> wrote:   It all depends on how it's applied, and what it's being applied to. Cold, slick surfaces are the worst. If I want hot glue to really stick, I will preheat the surface.

This especially when using the hard, hi-temp hot glue. The cheap stuff is more forgiving, possibly because the temperature of the hot glue gun is the same but the temperature at which the glue solidifies is lower, so the glue can heat up the material it is applied while still remaining liquid.

But really, there are very few places where I would use hot glue. My Venn diagram with "I'm doing a good job" and "Using hot glue" has very little intersecting area.

Cheers, Bob

________________________________________
From: @spam@piclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu <KILLspampiclist-bouncesKILLspamspammit.edu> on behalf of RussellMc <RemoveMEapptechnzTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 2:52 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Cc: Jeff Finger; ApptechNZ; spamBeGonekenspamBeGonespamelecsyn.com
Subject: [EE]:: Hotmelt adhesive for heavy component retention

Short:  Does anyone successfully use hot-melt  adhesives to retain larger
components in place mechanically, with no bond failures over lifetimes of
many years? If so, please comment.

Longer:

At various times we have had discussions on the PICList re the use of
adhesives to help locate / retain ... heavy components on PCBs.

Here and in other forums I have resolutely insisted (eg  *here
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/18533/3288>* &  *here
<https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/38766/3288>)* that using hot-melt
adhesive is an invitation to disaster as it does not retain its bond long
term. While this has been my observation in all cases where I have
encountered its use by others, this is clearly 'selling it short" by using
the term HM for a vast range of products, some of which SHOULD be eminently
suitable for the task.

A quickish web search turned up dozens of(apparently) good quality
references to HM and a large range of technical literature.

It seems 'obvious' that SOME hot melt adhesives would do a good job of the
'simple' task of retaining a largish component in place indefinitely, and
not losing bond strength weeks months or even years thereafter.

So - again:  Does anyone successfully use hotmelt  adhesives to retain
larger components in place mechanically, with no bond failures over
lifetimes of many years? If so, please comment.
Brand, type, application results, ... .



        Russell

_________________________________________

https://www.bond-tech-industries.com/about-us/blog/6-reasons-hot-melt-adhesive-isnt-working/

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/39803O/used-to-rigidize-large-components-on-cicuit-board-of-dryer.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0KtAAUx9VCbIDyQ7moNGGKMnFmmiAJvIIfD5FEBSjxkoQYIHqJf5jAskg


https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1245163O/3m-hot-melt-adhesive-3764-3748-technical-data-sheet.pdf

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218469708010513https://wiki2.org/en/Hot-melt_adhesive

https://www.intemag.com/images/uploads/Loctite_Hot_Melt_Technology.pdf

https://intactadhesives.com/products/adhesives/

http://www.siegeladhesives.com/heatspek-technology


https://www.google.com/search?q=3M%E2%84%A2+Scotch-Weld%E2%84%A2+Hot+Melt+Adhesive+3748&oq=3M%E2%84%A2+Scotch-Weld%E2%84%A2+Hot+Melt+Adhesive+3748&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2.1453j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

http://siegeladhesives.com/industrial-assembly/

*A nice 3M adhesive guide- HM & much more*


https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/372489O/adhesives-and-tapes-design-guide.pdf


http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/44021O/3m-hot-melt-bonding-systems-guide.pdf

https://www.google.co.nz/search?num=40&q=hot+melt+adhesive+bond+failure&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj87eGrppXgAhUxKX0KHSFeDSoQsAR6BAgDEAE&biw=1602&bih=899

www.bostik-industrial.com/consider-automotive-hot-melt-adhesives-car-assembly/
--
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View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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2019\01\31@132444 by mbaum7901

picon face
I have successfully used hot-melt for restraining large surface mount
electrolytic capacitors.
That was done using industrial high-temperature hot-melt.

I would avoid normal consumer high-temp hot-melt since it softens at
temperatures well below +85C (industrial temperature ranges)
Mike


{Original Message removed}

2019\01\31@134655 by Denny Esterline

picon face
I have several products that have wires soldered to a PCB, that connection
is buried under a blob of hot melt.
For the most part this is driven by my fear of the wires being abused
during handling and assembly rather
than concern about forces when in use. Some of them are 10+ years old at
this point and I haven't seen
any noteworthy failures.

-Denny
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2019\01\31@174905 by stephen.forrestn/a

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Well here's the thing - what do you mean by hot melt? If you mean the anonymous white stick from the local discount store then no. But 3M for example list almost 20 types for many different applications. As with any engineering decision, it behoves the designer to assess the requirements, compare the data and choose the best compromise.

You often here questions such "what's the best epoxy for..." or "which RTV should I use for..." but rarely does anyone consider types of hotmelt.

But that said, the short answer to your question is ... no  ;o)

Stephen


> {Original Message removed}


'[EE]:: Hotmelt adhesive for heavy component retent'
2019\02\02@054318 by Justin Richards
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I like the moldable form suggestion.  Great tip

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019 at 03:17, Peter <TakeThisOuTgreat_pic_nEraseMEspamspam_OUTwestnet.com.au> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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