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PICList Thread
'[72677.2623@CompuServe.COM: Re: Errors from MPALC]'
1994\06\18@154102 by eric

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face
At his request, I am forwarding a message from Don Lekei
<spam_OUT72677.2623TakeThisOuTspamCompuServe.COM>.  For the record, I completely agree with him,
and I use the TRIS instruction routinely.  In my previous message which Don
quotes, I just presented all three ways of accessing the TRISA and TRISB
registers.

I should point out for the benefit of those using the 16C71 that the TRISA
register on the current parts doesn't actually have a bit for PA4.  If you
write anything to PORTA with bit four low, it will drive PA4 low regardless of
what you have written to the TRISA register.  The errata covers this, but in a
confusing manner.  Mike Jedrezewski (sp?) of Microchip told me that there is a
new rev of the 16C71 silicon due out soon which is supposed to fix all known
errata, including the missing TRISA bit.  I've also heard unofficially that
a 16C71A should be out in early '95, with improved performance (possibly
>20 MHz) and lower power consumption.

Eric
------------------------ Don Lekei's message follows  ------------------------
>Date: 18 Jun 94 13:23:40 EDT
>From: Don Lekei <.....72677.2623KILLspamspam@spam@CompuServe.COM>
>To: "INTERNET:ericspamKILLspamapache.telebit.com" <.....ericKILLspamspam.....apache.Sunnyvale.Telebit.COM>
>Subject: Re: Errors from MPALC

In the previous message, Eric Smith refers to Microchip's documentation:

>Microchip is trying to discourage people from using the tris instructions,
>and claim that they may be removed from future parts.

This advice from Microchip is some of the highest ranked BAD ADVICE in the
history of PIC programming. It is right up there with starting your code at
location zero in any PIC (other than an '84)!

You should ALWAYS use the TRIS instruction, unless it is necessary to
modify the TRIS register (eg. bi-directional i/o or open-drain emulation).

1)  It is better to maintain code compatability and portability to the
existing economical PIC parts (5x) rather than some mythical future part.

2)  TRIS takes less code and fewer cycles than accessing registers in bank
2.

3)  MPSIM will not correctly track changes directly adjusting bank 2
registers.

4)  If Microchip ever actually does remove the TRIS instruction on a future
part, then it is far more portable to define a macro to emulate the TRIS
instruction on that part, than to cut-off backward compatability with 16c5x
parts.

I just HAD to jump in here, it makes my skin crawl whenever I read that
part of the data sheet.

- Don

PS. Another handy way to start a lively thread is to mention using EQU to
define data addresses.



'FRAM/Ramtron info@ramtron.com'
1994\10\06@144308 by crocontroller discussion list
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face
> John Johnson  Team OS/2 member | EraseMEjohnsonjspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTbga.com | johnsonjspamspam_OUTutdallas.edu

John,

It's nice to see positive responses about my company's products.

> Very little code mod was necessary in my xlinx

I assume you are using our FM24C04.  This should be completely drop-in
compatible with EEPROM I2C 24C04 parts.  I am very curious to know exactly
what changes were necessary.  Were the code changes only to take
advantage of the fast write time of FRAM?

> I put them to the test overnight and only had 4
> read back errors after 5mil r/w cycles.

I realize that this may be good performance for a(n) EEPROM, but
you should see ZERO errors in 10 billion cycles with our FRAM
products.  I'd like to know the details of how you are accessing the
FM24C04 (temp, reading/writing pattern, voltage, etc.).  Are the 4
errors you've seen hard errors or soft errors?  I'll forward your info
to our QA department; they're very interested in your experience.

CONTACT INFO:

NEW!!!!  Email: @spam@infoKILLspamspamramtron.com
(Since this is new: if there are problems, please bear with us.)

Ramtron International Corporation
1850 Ramtron Drive
Colorado Springs, CO 80921

      (800) 545-FRAM
      (719) 481-7000
Fax:   (719) 488-9095

We're working on anonymous ftp access for our data sheets etc.  Right
now, the best way to get information is to e-mail or call and ask for
our data book.

Greg Smith
Design Engineer
Ramtron Int'l Corp
KILLspamgregKILLspamspamramtron.com

1994\10\06@155935 by crocontroller discussion list

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face
My apologies if the list receives this twice.

> John Johnson  Team OS/2 member | RemoveMEjohnsonjTakeThisOuTspambga.com | spamBeGonejohnsonjspamBeGonespamutdallas.edu

John,

It's nice to see positive responses about my company's products.

> Very little code mod was necessary in my xlinx

I assume you are using our FM24C04.  This should be completely drop-in
compatible with EEPROM I2C 24C04 parts.  I am very curious to know exactly
what changes were necessary.  Were the code changes only to take
advantage of the fast write time of FRAM?

> I put them to the test overnight and only had 4
> read back errors after 5mil r/w cycles.

I realize that this may be good performance for a(n) EEPROM, but
you should see ZERO errors in 10 billion cycles with our FRAM
products.  I'd like to know the details of how you are accessing the
FM24C04 (temp, reading/writing pattern, voltage, etc.).  Are the 4
errors you've seen hard errors or soft errors?  I'll forward your info
to our QA department; they're very interested in your experience.

CONTACT INFO:

NEW!!!!  Email: TakeThisOuTinfoEraseMEspamspam_OUTramtron.com
(Since this is new: if there are problems, please bear with us.)

Ramtron International Corporation
1850 Ramtron Drive
Colorado Springs, CO 80921

      (800) 545-FRAM
      (719) 481-7000
Fax:   (719) 488-9095

We're working on anonymous ftp access for our data sheets etc.  Right
now, the best way to get information is to e-mail or call and ask for
our data book.

Greg Smith
Design Engineer
Ramtron Int'l Corp
RemoveMEgregspamTakeThisOuTramtron.com

1994\10\06@182801 by crocontroller discussion list

flavicon
face
P.S. I am an embedded conrtrol and design engineer but who ever posted
that job add.  You had better add eskimo to your requirments :) just joke
about the great white north.  Was up there once in the winter(one week).
Nearly froze to death in my hotel with the heater on(good beer though).
Came back home to Texas where it was nice and warm.

> Very little code mod was necessary in my xlinx
>
> I assume you are using our FM24C04.  This should be completely drop-in
> compatible with EEPROM I2C 24C04 parts.  I am very curious to know exactly
> what changes were necessary.  Were the code changes only to take
> advantage of the fast write time of FRAM?
Nope close though.  FM24C16.  It maybe with the 24C04 but we used the
93C66 in our original design(tossed now).  And the modes were for true
I2C compatability.  As for timing?  yup that was one thing I upped.

> > I put them to the test overnight and only had 4
> > read back errors after 5mil r/w cycles.
>
> I realize that this may be good performance for a(n) EEPROM, but
> you should see ZERO errors in 10 billion cycles with our FRAM
> products.  I'd like to know the details of how you are accessing the
> FM24C04 (temp, reading/writing pattern, voltage, etc.).  Are the 4
> errors you've seen hard errors or soft errors?  I'll forward your info
> to our QA department; they're very interested in your experience.

oh i took it through hell.  I would write the data address then the data,
then add then data, add, data till it was full.  None of that nice
sequential crap :)  then did add,read,add,read,add,read until the end.
once again no nice sequential(this was pretty messy to do,
add,write,read).  As for temp? around 100 F or so(not sure what chasis
temp range is but that would be a good guess).  as for V? 5 solid and even.
As for the errors H/S? well it could go either way but most likely
hardware.  My software took a 20meg file, wrote it to the chip and read
it back via a MXI bus.  If it was software i think there would have been
more.. however... ehh out of how much was written it is possible and I/O
error occured.

> We're working on anonymous ftp access for our data sheets etc.  Right
> now, the best way to get information is to e-mail or call and ask for
> our data book.
God man are you crazy!  Dont come into the 21st century yet.  For godsake
only Harris has this(they used a Web, its really nice but incomplete).   :)
later
       John
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Johnson  Team OS/2 member | johnsonjEraseMEspam.....bga.com | EraseMEjohnsonjspamutdallas.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the Seventh version of OS/2 raised into the air its bow of blue steel and
cried," It. Is. Done."  Around him lay Bill Gates and Microsoft apps.  Their
evil in this world at an end.
                                       Revelations of InfoWorld, Oct 11 1994


'MOre on my I@C problem'
1995\06\18@170849 by leeh
picon face
Oh by the way, I didn't forget the pull-up resistors.

Also, in the simulator, I notice that the PORTC bits do not change.
When controlling the TRISC bits in I2C the PORTC bits should indicate
the state of the ouput bit, correct or not?  Anyways, whern scoping
the actual PORTC bits on the real hardware, bioth bits 3 and 4 remain
high.

Lee Holeva


'unique@usa.net, aka Jeff Slaton's latest spam.'
1995\08\28@184014 by Tim Braun
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face
from 'whois':

  Domain Name: USA.NET

  Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
     Clark, Kevin  (KC185)  RemoveMEkclarkEraseMEspamEraseMEUSA.NET
     800-592-1241


'16C84@4Mhz, 9600 bauds'
1995\11\14@124818 by Julio Cesar de Almeida Maia
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>From G.J. Flanagan <RemoveMEG.J.Flanaganspam_OUTspamKILLspamNEWCASTLE.AC.UK>
>If the processor you used is anything like the 16c54 for serial
>communications you have two problems. First, the 5volt RS232 expects an
>RS232 converter to raise the signal to 12 volts AND to INVERT it.

  Sure. I'm using max232.

>However, not only are the 5volt signals upsidedown, but I also needed to
>alter the clock constants by more than I would have expected by the
>change I made in clock frequencies. I would recomend a  quick look with
>an oscilloscope is called for here.

  That's the point. AN510 from Microchip describes a simple algorithm for
half duplex async communications for the 15c5x family, without using
rtcc for timing. But I just don't get it works with 16c84, 4Mhz,
9600 bauds. AN555 describes an interrupt driven communications utility
for 16c6x family. It works reasonably well just at 1200 bauds. In my
application, an algorithm like that of AN510 would be fine. Since it's
time constants be tuned. My great problem is that I don't own an
oscilloscope. Debug this kind of thing is something painful in this
situation. If someone here did 16c84, 4Mhz, works at 9600 bauds, please
let me know how.

1995\11\15@064425 by Scott Stephens

picon face
>My great problem is that I don't own an
>oscilloscope. Debug this kind of thing is something painful in this
>situation.

I have a scope and it was still painfull! What helped me figure my problem
out was using the RC oscillator mode with a variable resistor. Then,
observing the frequency at clock/4 at osc2/pin 15, vary the frequency up and
down until I saw legible characters on my computer terminal. This told me if
I was high or low with time constants. For receive, my application sets
output port bits at the same time it receives them, echoing back data to my
terminal. Lately, for other reasons I've used MPSIM; it led to more grief.
Good luck.

1995\11\15@095422 by Tim Braun

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> From RemoveMEowner-piclistTakeThisOuTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU Wed Nov 15 05:46:35 1995
> Date:         Wed, 15 Nov 1995 05:43:37 -0600
> From: Scott Stephens <EraseMEstephnssspamspamspamBeGonePYROTECHNICS.COM>
> Subject:      Re: 16C84@4Mhz, 9600 bauds
>
> >My great problem is that I don't own an
> >oscilloscope. Debug this kind of thing is something painful in this
> >situation.
>
> I have a scope and it was still painfull! What helped me figure my problem
...
> terminal. Lately, for other reasons I've used MPSIM; it led to more grief.
> Good luck.
>

Use MPSim.  It will tell you exact cycle counts for your transmit loops,
and exact cycle counts for your receive loops, too.  Unless you're running
interrupts, you should have no problems finding out exactly (and I mean
within a microsecond) how long your bit timing is.

Timing one bit at 9600 baud, 4 MHz crystal will take you 104 instruction cycles.
That won't hurt.

Okay, maybe you'll have problems if you insist on full symbolic debugging
and are afraid of hexadecimal.  But you should be able strip out the core of
your RS-232 transmit routines and verify their timing very accurately.

Alright, I will admit I borrowed a 'scope and verified my timings.  So now I can
assure you that MPSim is accurate :)  (More accurate than the 1-3% error
often involved in measuring a timing signal with a 'scope).

Tim Braun                             | Voice: 204-942-2992 ext 228
Continental Healthcare Systems Canada | FAX:   204-942-3001
1900-155 Carlton St                   | Email: RemoveMEtimKILLspamspamchs.mb.ca
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3H8    | www: http://www.chs.mb.ca/~tim/home.html

1995\11\15@135459 by John Payson

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> Alright, I will admit I borrowed a 'scope and verified my timings.  So now I
can
> assure you that MPSim is accurate :)  (More accurate than the 1-3% error
> often involved in measuring a timing signal with a 'scope).

Though if you have a calibrated function generator and you want to time
your program's loop execution to ensure that it's correct, put a periodic
signal from your program on one scope trace and your function generator
output on the other.  Then see if they drift.  Easy way to get VERY accurate
speed verification.

'9600 baud @4MHz code is here'
1995\11\16@005311 by Newfound Electronics

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>
>>Julio,
>>Forwarded reply you requested.
>>P.S. You should be able to get 9600 baud @ 4Mhz without oscilliscopes or
>>much difficulty.
>
>   Thanks for the reply. But I would rather some code that really works. :)
>I'm hurry to finish my application. Thanks anyway.
>
>   Julio
>

Julio,

Sorry the code is not formated very well as had to port it from DOS into
windows and it scrambled everywhere!  This is what I used before and it is
based on the microchip application note, not the best but it worked. By
memory it worked well but the timings were not exact. No doubt others on the
PIC LIST will add and detract from it especially as it came from me.

Of course don't forget to change the processor type as needed.   I have
assembled it and there are no assembly errors but I have not tested it and
maybe I destroyed the code when I removed the peripherial features in the
"XMTW" routine.  I also had to make a small change the "SERIN" routine after
porting so this has not been tested by the assembler.

If you get stuck trying to get it to work, let me know and I'll see what I
can do.

Sorry for any mistakes in my English.

Regards,

Jim



;SERIAL ROUTINES 9600 BAUD @4MHz
;

list p=16c57


flags          equ     3       ; (Hang over from Z80 days!)
cntl_port  equ    7

c         equ     0       ; Carry Bit is Bit.0 of F3

                      org 08

rcvreg  res     1
xmtreg  res    1
count   res     1
dlycnt  res     1

baud_x  equ     .29
baud_4  equ     .43
baud_3  equ     .16
baud_2  equ     .33
baud_1  equ     .35
baud_y  equ     .31

dout       equ     3
din         equ     2

user         movlw   baud_3
              movwf   dlycnt
redo_2    decfsz  dlycnt
              goto    redo_2

serin
              clrf    rcvreg                ; clear all bits of rcvreg
              btfsc   cntl_port,din   ; check for a start bit
              goto    user                  ; delay for 104/2 us
              nop
              movlw   baud_4
              movwf   dlycnt
              decfsz  dlycnt
              goto $-1

              movlw   8               ; 8 data bits
              movwf   count
r_next     bcf     flags,c
              rrf     rcvreg
              btfsc   cntl_port,din
              bsf     rcvreg,7
              decfsz  count
              goto dlyy
              movlw baud_3         ;last half of last bit delay.
              goto save

dlyy        movlw   baud_y
              movwf   dlycnt
              decfsz  dlycnt
              goto $-1
              goto    r_next

xmtw      movwf   xmtreg
xmtr       movlw   8
              movwf   count
              bcf     cntl_port,dout       ; send start bit
              call    delay1
x_next     bcf     flags,c
              rrf     xmtreg
              btfsc   flags,c
              bsf     cntl_port,dout
              btfss   flags,c
              bcf     cntl_port,dout
delayx    movlw   baud_x
              call    save
              decfsz  count
              goto    x_next
              bsf     cntl_port,dout       ; send stop bit
              movlw   baud_x
              goto    save

delay1         movlw   baud_1
save             movwf   dlycnt
redo_1         decfsz  dlycnt
                   goto    redo_1
                   retlw   0

              end

1995\11\16@132936 by Paul Christenson [N3EOP]

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>Sorry the code is not formated very well as had to port it from DOS into
>windows and it scrambled everywhere!

>flags          equ     3       ; (Hang over from Z80 days!)
>cntl_port  equ    7
>
>c         equ     0       ; Carry Bit is Bit.0 of F3
>
>                       org 08

You probably would have been better off leaving the code in its        !
"scrambled" form.  If you are running Eudora under Windows, be         !
advised that by default it displays everything in a proportional       !
font.  You can change it to a "monospaced" font, and things will       !
line up properly.                                                      !
                                                                      !
As a test, the line to the right side of this message ------>          !
is (supposed to be) vertical.  If it isn't, either the editor I'm      !
using chopped off some spaces, or you are using a proportional font.   !
(However, it looks fine from here...)  Could someone tell me if it     !
is or not?  Thanks...                                                  !
                                                                      !
Paul                                                                   !

1995\11\16@194009 by Newfound Electronics

flavicon
face
>You probably would have been better off leaving the code in its        !
>"scrambled" form.  If you are running Eudora under Windows, be         !
>advised that by default it displays everything in a proportional       !
>font.  You can change it to a "monospaced" font, and things will       !
>line up properly.                                                      !
>                                                                       !
>As a test, the line to the right side of this message ------>          !
>is (supposed to be) vertical.  If it isn't, either the editor I'm      !
>using chopped off some spaces, or you are using a proportional font.   !
>(However, it looks fine from here...)  Could someone tell me if it     !
>is or not?  Thanks...                                                  !
>

Thanks for that info Paul, it will be very useful in the future.

Your line was all over the place but half a bottle of  scotch will
straighten it out nicely (until the morning anyway.  Well maybe the
monospaced font is a better choice. :-)

Remember, if anyone fines it doesn't work let me know and I'll fix it, ok?
It certainly worked reliably for me.

Regards

Jim

P.S.  For some reason my email is starting  at message 2 when I collect it.
I will get this fixed but in the meantime if someone has sent email and I
haven't replied in 24 hours max, this is why.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS,  Now available WARP-3
Programs all PICs, 3 textool sockets. can reduce erase time 40-50%
ISP port,  fast, All options. 24Cxx & 93Cxx serial eeprom read/program
bonus offer.  Price: TBA approx $100US

email newfoundSTOPspamspamspam_OUTne.com.au
------------------------------------------------------------------

1995\11\21@064515 by John W. Gutmann

flavicon
face
"Paul Christenson [N3EOP]" <km4ba!kd4nc!emory!PSUVM.PSU.EDU!PJC130> writes:

> >windows and it scrambled everywhere!
> (However, it looks fine from here...)  Could someone tell me if it     !
> is or not?  Thanks...                                                  !
>                                                                        !
> Paul                                                                   !

Paul,
   I received your mail and I am using 80 col screen, with
mono spaced font.    The line was vertical and straight up
in the same column.
   John W. Gutmann



--
__   _  _  _  _   John W. Gutmann  -  SYSOP -  Robots R4U BBS - 404-978-7300
|__)  |__|  |  |   spamBeGonejohn.gutmannSTOPspamspamEraseMErobot4u.atl.ga.us              INTERNET EMAIL
|  \     |  |__|   ROBOT HOBBY; The Complete Manual for Individuals and Clubs
__    __    __    R.E.A.L. - Robot Experimenter Amateur League - Atlanta, GA
|__)  |__)  (__    ROBOTS R4U BBS -  P.O. Box 2050  - Stn. Mtn., GA  -  30086
|__)  |__)   __)   Voice 404-972-7082  Ans Machine  -  FAX 404-979-3660,,,,11

1995\11\21@064515 by John W. Gutmann

flavicon
face
"Paul Christenson [N3EOP]" <km4ba!kd4nc!emory!PSUVM.PSU.EDU!PJC130> writes:

> >windows and it scrambled everywhere!
> (However, it looks fine from here...)  Could someone tell me if it     !
> is or not?  Thanks...                                                  !
>                                                                        !
> Paul                                                                   !

Paul,
   I received your mail and I am using 80 col screen, with
mono spaced font.    The line was vertical and straight up
in the same column.
   John W. Gutmann



--
__   _  _  _  _   John W. Gutmann  -  SYSOP -  Robots R4U BBS - 404-978-7300
|__)  |__|  |  |   KILLspamjohn.gutmannspamBeGonespamrobot4u.atl.ga.us              INTERNET EMAIL
|  \     |  |__|   ROBOT HOBBY; The Complete Manual for Individuals and Clubs
__    __    __    R.E.A.L. - Robot Experimenter Amateur League - Atlanta, GA
|__)  |__)  (__    ROBOTS R4U BBS -  P.O. Box 2050  - Stn. Mtn., GA  -  30086
|__)  |__)   __)   Voice 404-972-7082  Ans Machine  -  FAX 404-979-3660,,,,11


'HTML @Mozilla & WWW trouble?'
1996\05\18@235936 by Scott Stephens
picon face
While we debate the appropriateness, maybe someone who commented about
@Mozilla before on this list, can explain why I can't use netscape to get
certain web sites. The host is contacted, but I never get data. And most
often, if I use a shell acount and Lynx, I can contact the web site just
fine. FTP too. I believe @Mozilla as Netscape's user name is to blame.
Mosaic is no better. Any suggestions?



At 02:21 PM 5/17/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I recieved far more response to my posting asking for information about
>off-line viewing of HTML files than I had expected.  To the few that
>expressed dis-satisfaction with my topic, I would like to apologize.  Since
>the majority of the information I have collected and need to view is PIC
>information that was suggested or pointed to on the PICLIST, I thought it was
>appropriate....sorry.  To all those who gave me useful information...THANKS!

1996\05\20@091256 by Mike DeMetz

flavicon
face
> To:            Multiple recipients of list PICLIST <EraseMEPICLISTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

> While we debate the appropriateness, maybe someone who commented about
> @Mozilla before on this list, can explain why I can't use netscape to get
> certain web sites. The host is contacted, but I never get data. And most
> often, if I use a shell acount and Lynx, I can contact the web site just
> fine. FTP too. I believe @Mozilla as Netscape's user name is to blame.
> Mosaic is no better. Any suggestions?
>
Not sure what you are describing. Mozillia is Netscape's POP/SMTP
email program.
**********************************************************
*Mike DeMetz                      SYSCON International   *
*@spam@miked@spam@spamspam_OUTsyscon-intl.com            South Bend, IN USA     *
*aka spamBeGone73165.1230spamKILLspamcompuserve.com    using Pegasus Mail     *
**********************************************************


'%&#$(!@ ADVERT! Shareware PICSTART 16B upgrade.'
1996\10\22@095856 by Jim Robertson
flavicon
face
Hi Folks,


This is sort of an advert so I guess some people can stop reading here and
send your complaints directly to: .....newfoundspam_OUTspamne.com.au.

After much thought, I have decided to release my (DOS) PICSTART 16B upgrade
"PHOENIX" via shareware. "Shareware" because I have not, as yet, been able
to complete the software to the standard I would like. Somehow, I don't
think I ever will unless I learn C or basic as trying to do everything in
assembler is just to..., just to..., well, dumb really....

However, I have something that is working and highly functional and there is
no point in just letting it rot on my hard disk. The important part,
programming the PICs, is just fine, only things like pulldown menus and file
search options etc. are missing.
Anyway, no-one complained about these omittions with my other programmers
(and lived!) but I would have liked my picstart software to give you
everything you already had _plus_ the heaps extra I'm offering.

Anyway, here is the plan...

I have a PICSTART 16B upgrade that allows the old bucket to program all of
these lovely PICS: (With adapters where required.)

16C52,54,54A,54B,55,56,56B,57,58A,58B
16C552,554,556
16C61,62,62A,63,64,64A,65,65A,66,67
16C620,621,622
16C641,642
16C661,662
16C71,710,711,715,72,73,73A,74,74A
16C84*
16F83,84*   (*With data _full_ data eeprom support!)
16C922,923
PIC14000 OTP and JW  (With full, automatic calibration support)
PIC12C50x  (Not tested yet, with calibration word support)

(Note for my existing programmer users. Don't think you have  been
abandoned, a WARP-3 driver for all the currently unsupported devices is
being tested now.)

I think that is about all of them. As you can see, it offers substantually
more support than the original product and new devices will be added.

On the minus side, as I said, I cannot currently offer pulldown menus and
file and directory  search options and other "nice" stuff like this and I am
very disappointed and more than slightly bashful about it.

However, if you are prepared to for go these frilly bits, you can have a
much more functional programmer.

If anyone is interested, I would love to hear from you just so I cam gauge
the level of support for this project. I propose to put the .HEX code on my
web page and allow people to program there own 17Cxx chip (any size or type
of 17Cxx is suitable but I recommend using a JW part for future upgrades.)
Intially, all the software will be freely supplied and hopefully people will
register the software for a small amount of dollars. ($20-$25US seems
reasonable to me.)

If there is interest, I may also offer a basic 17Cxx programmer design as
shareware. This will be a minimum (read "cheap") design but enough to
program the 17Cxx parts. You will need a (any) 40-pin 16Cxx part and I will
show you how you can program the "17Cxx burner firmware" into it just using
a picstart 16B. That's right, you don't need a special 16C64/74 programmer.

So even if you have only a PS 16B, you will end up with two programmers
capable of programming every PIC device between them.

Anyway, as I said, I would like to hear from interested people as it is only
the interest in this that is providing the "push" for me to put it all
together in releaseable form. Otherwise, I'll play games allday. (love
Descent II, Quake was disappointing.)

Thank-you Piclister's for this indulgence, hope some of you found it of
interest.

Interested peoples, please email me directly at:

TakeThisOuTnewfound.....spamTakeThisOuTne.com.au


Regards,

Jim


'unsubscribe indotele@melsa.net.id'
1996\11\07@042331 by Cache doang
flavicon
face
unsubsribe TakeThisOuTindoteleKILLspamspamspammelsa.net.id

'!@#$%^&* Windows '95 can't find my PICMASTER'
1996\11\18@122837 by Mark Jurras

flavicon
face
I just got upgraded (I kicked and screamed the whole way) to Windows 95.
The method that the computer guys used was: Take computer. Back-Up entire
HD. Delete Windows 3.11 directory. Install Windows '95. Load Microsoft
Office and Groupunwise. Return Computer with most applications not working.

I have reloaded from scratch MPLAB 3.12.0 and it doesn't find my PICMASTER
emulator. I have checked the connections and port settings. I can't even
select it in the OPTIONS-->DEVELOPMENT menu. It is ghosted. How do I set my
emulator back up????

- -Mark

1996\11\18@150229 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
Mark Jurras <.....JURRAMspamRemoveMETORRINGTON.COM> wrote:

> I just got upgraded (I kicked and screamed the whole way) to Windows 95.
> I have reloaded from scratch MPLAB 3.12.0 and it doesn't find my PICMASTER

Deleting Win3.1 was probably not the best way to do it, but anyway, the
problem is probably that you have to install the Picmaster module as well -
you need pmr31000.exe. This was certainly the case with earlier versions
of MPLAB.

You won't regret moving to Win95. Now if Microchip would only support WinNT...

Clyde

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs       | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 3354 2411
RemoveMEclydespamspamBeGonehitech.com.au      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 3354 2422
http://www.hitech.com.au | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
For info on the World's best C cross compilers for embedded systems, point
your WWW browser at http://www.hitech.com.au, or email spamBeGoneinfo@spam@spamspam_OUThitech.com.au

1996\11\18@155926 by Ray Gardiner

flavicon
face
>I just got upgraded (I kicked and screamed the whole way) to Windows 95.
>The method that the computer guys used was: Take computer. Back-Up entire
>HD. Delete Windows 3.11 directory. Install Windows '95. Load Microsoft
>Office and Groupunwise. Return Computer with most applications not working.
>
>I have reloaded from scratch MPLAB 3.12.0 and it doesn't find my PICMASTER
>emulator. I have checked the connections and port settings. I can't even
>select it in the OPTIONS-->DEVELOPMENT menu. It is ghosted. How do I set my
>emulator back up????
>
>- -Mark

Hi Mark,

I had similiar problems a few weeks back, couldn't get MPLAB to look at
the emulator, tried all the IO addresses etc.. I ended up re-installing
the emulator dll's pmr31000.exe and it started to work again. However
since then I suspect the real problem was a path problem. Before doing
the re-installation try adding a  "." to the front of the path in
autoexec.bat. Assuming the emulator dll's are in the application directory.

Good Luck,


Ray Gardiner, Shepparton, Victoria 3630,  Australia,   TakeThisOuTrayspamspamnetspace.net.au

1996\11\18@202024 by Wireless Scientific

flavicon
face
At 11:11 AM 11/18/96, Mark Jurras wrote:
>I just got upgraded (I kicked and screamed the whole way) to Windows 95.
>The method that the computer guys used was: Take computer. Back-Up entire
>HD. Delete Windows 3.11 directory. Install Windows '95. Load Microsoft
>Office and Groupunwise. Return Computer with most applications not working.
>
>I have reloaded from scratch MPLAB 3.12.0 and it doesn't find my PICMASTER
>emulator. I have checked the connections and port settings. I can't even
>select it in the OPTIONS-->DEVELOPMENT menu. It is ghosted. How do I set my
>emulator back up????
>
>- -Mark


edit the mplab.ini manually, set the port.

1996\11\19@102410 by Ian Stirling

flavicon
face
>
> I just got upgraded (I kicked and screamed the whole way) to Windows 95.
> The method that the computer guys used was: Take computer. Back-Up entire
> HD. Delete Windows 3.11 directory. Install Windows '95. Load Microsoft
> Office and Groupunwise. Return Computer with most applications not working.
>
> I have reloaded from scratch MPLAB 3.12.0 and it doesn't find my PICMASTER
> emulator. I have checked the connections and port settings. I can't even
> select it in the OPTIONS-->DEVELOPMENT menu. It is ghosted. How do I set my
> emulator back up????

I have not run that software, but I do know that windows 95 handles the
paralell port in a totally different way to win 3.1[1] which breaks a lot
of bit banging programs.
I'm not aware of a way round it, other than getting a 95 version of the
software.
Sorry.

>
> - -Mark
>


--
Ian Stirling.                        |  http://www.mauve.demon.co.uk/
AKA Caeser, Bolonewbie.              |  With information on the PDA I'm making.

1996\11\22@091540 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
Ian Stirling <is06EraseMEspamSTUDENTS.STIR.AC.UK> wrote:

> I have not run that software, but I do know that windows 95 handles the
> paralell port in a totally different way to win 3.1[1] which breaks a lot
> of bit banging programs.
> I'm not aware of a way round it, other than getting a 95 version of the
> software.
> Sorry.

1) The PICMAster does not interface through the parallel port;
2) Win95 does initially virtualize hardware, but grants direct access
  to 16 bit programs unless something else is using the port;
3) The PICMaster and MPLAB work just fine under Win95. WinNT is, sadly,
  a different story. Microchip do not thus far seem to have made any
  commitment to Win32 versions of their software.


--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs       | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 3354 2411
RemoveMEclydeEraseMEspamspam_OUThitech.com.au      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 3354 2422
http://www.hitech.com.au | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
For info on the World's best C cross compilers for embedded systems, point
your WWW browser at http://www.hitech.com.au, or email @spam@infoRemoveMEspamEraseMEhitech.com.au


'listserv@mitvma.mit.edu'
1996\12\14@171929 by Kimjonsand
picon face
listserv@mitvma.mit.edu

subscribe piclist


'PORTA Question!yal@CAPITALNET'
1997\03\01@172550 by Alex I. Torres
flavicon
face
  Hi All PICers !

> From: Jean-Francois Joly <EraseMEjolyalspam@spam@CAPITALNET.COM>
> Subject:      PORTA Question!

> Hello everyone!
>
> I would like to make a little program that sends a high on
> the RA0 pin to light up a LED. I think it should be simple
> enought, but because this is my first attempt in programming
> a PIC, Im not to sure...
>
> This is the main part of the program. If something is wrong
> or missing, please tell me!
>
>         BSF     PORTA, RA0      ; Want to put 1 on RA0 pin
>         BSF     TRISA, TRISA0   ; Output a high on RA0 pin

          ^^^  bcf, at first.

What about ROM PAGE selecting ?  PORTA is on the 0-page, but
TRISA - on 1st once.
You must write:
      bcf porta,ra0
      bsf status,RP0
      bsf trisa,0
      bcf status,RP0.

More better - to use macros and defines, for example:
;
#define  A0_ON    bsf porta,0
#define  A0_OFF   bcf porta,0
#define  A0_INP   bsf trisa & 0x7f,0
#define  A0_OUT   bcf trisa & 0x7f,0
;
PAGESET    macro pagenum
               if pagenum == 1
                 bsf status,RP0
               else
                 bcf status,RP0
               endif
          endm
;
;After that your program looks like :
;
         A0_ON
         PAGESET 1
         A0_OUT
         PAGESET 0
;

> Would this work?

See before :-)

>  Does it send the signal to the pin at the
> same moment that I set in the TRISA register pin RA0 as
> output?


Yes, of course.

  Best Wishes, Alex Torres.
  Kharkov, Ukraine, exUSSR.
  E-Mail To : @spam@altorspam_OUTspam.....cook.kharkov.ua   via InterNet
              or 2:461/28             via FidoNet

--- GoldED 2.50.A0531+

1997\03\02@094117 by Jean-Francois Joly

flavicon
face
Hello!

>       bcf porta,ra0
>       bsf status,RP0  ; Change bank 1
>       bsf trisa,0
>       bcf status,RP0  ; Change back to bank 0

Why do you change back to bank 0 after?

> >  Does it send the signal to the pin at the
> > same moment that I set in the TRISA register pin RA0 as
> > output?
>
>
>Yes, of course.

But what if I set the direction first with the TRIS register like Ed Tood
told me in his last message and then I set the output latch?

TTYL!
Jean
---------------
Jean-Francois & Alain Joly
spamBeGonejolyalEraseMEspamcapitalnet.com

1997\03\02@132639 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>
> Hello!
>
> >       bcf porta,ra0
> >       bsf status,RP0  ; Change bank 1
> >       bsf trisa,0
> >       bcf status,RP0  ; Change back to bank 0
>
> Why do you change back to bank 0 after?

Because you want to make sure that future accesses to the ports and
registers are in bank 0. It's good programming practice.

{Quote hidden}

Then whatever value is in the output latch when you set the TRIS register
will appear on the pin briefly until it's changed. By setting the latch
first, there's no possibility of a glitch.

BAJ

'Help on comms and IRQ's please
1997\03\02@172145 by Alex I. Torres

flavicon
face
  Hi All PICers !

> From: Ken Dougal <slm5gspamBeGonespamcc.usu.edu>
> Subject:      Help on comms and IRQ's please

> My mouse is on comm 1, IRQ4
> My modem is on Comm 2, IRQ3
>
> So can I connect something to Comm 3 or 4 if they use the
> same IRQs as Comm 1 & 2 ?????

To COM4, of course.
Yes,your modem at com2 and your device at com4 shared the
same IRQ3, but (I sure :) not at the SAME time.
Against this, your mouse work all time so you don't use
com3 because IRQ4 is busy.

  Best Wishes, Alex Torres.
  Kharkov, Ukraine, exUSSR.
  E-Mail To : RemoveMEaltor@spam@spamspamBeGonecook.kharkov.ua   via InterNet
              or 2:461/28             via FidoNet

P.S. I also have mouse at com1, ext.moem at com2 and varios devices,
I connect to com4.
--- GoldED 2.50.A0531+

'PORTA Question!yal@CAPITALNET'
1997\03\04@105641 by Jean-Francois Joly

flavicon
face
Hi!

>> >       bcf porta,ra0
>> >       bsf status,RP0  ; Change bank 1
>> >       bsf trisa,0
>> >       bcf status,RP0  ; Change back to bank 0
>>
>> Why do you change back to bank 0 after?
>
>Because you want to make sure that future accesses to the ports and
>registers are in bank 0. It's good programming practice.

Oh ok... and when you execute the BCF PORTA,RA0 instruction on the first
line, your supposing that we are already in bank 0  'cause PORTA is in bank 0?


>Then whatever value is in the output latch when you set the TRIS register
>will appear on the pin briefly until it's changed. By setting the latch
>first, there's no possibility of a glitch.

Cool! Well, thanks a lot for your help and all the people who helped me with
that PORTA Question!

Jean-Francois
---------------
Jean-Francois & Alain Joly
.....jolyal@spam@spamEraseMEcapitalnet.com

1997\03\04@110633 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>
> Hi!
>
> >> >       bcf porta,ra0
> >> >       bsf status,RP0  ; Change bank 1
> >> >       bsf trisa,0
> >> >       bcf status,RP0  ; Change back to bank 0
> >>
> >> Why do you change back to bank 0 after?
> >
> >Because you want to make sure that future accesses to the ports and
> >registers are in bank 0. It's good programming practice.
>
> Oh ok... and when you execute the BCF PORTA,RA0 instruction on the first
> line, your supposing that we are already in bank 0  'cause PORTA is in bank 0?

Precisely.

>
>
> >Then whatever value is in the output latch when you set the TRIS register
> >will appear on the pin briefly until it's changed. By setting the latch
> >first, there's no possibility of a glitch.
>
> Cool! Well, thanks a lot for your help and all the people who helped me with
> that PORTA Question!

You're welcome. Hope to see more of your questions on the list.

BAJ

'16C84 @ 11.0592MHz'
1997\03\25@072358 by Elvin Slavik

picon face
Hi,
Has anyone any comments/experience on running a 16C84 @ 11.0592MHz.
I know it is 1.0592Mhz faster than the rating, but what I'm thinking
about is sharing the clock on a circuit which already has an Atmel
89C2051 running @ 11.0592MHz with a '84. I could divide the clock,
but what I'd like is to run the '84 as fast as possible.
Alternatley if someone has a suggestion of how to slow the clock
for the PIC.

Regards.Elvin

1997\03\25@122121 by Dirk Van den Berge

flavicon
face
At 11:23 PM 3/25/97, Elvin Slavik wrote:
>Hi,
>Has anyone any comments/experience on running a 16C84 @ 11.0592MHz.
>I know it is 1.0592Mhz faster than the rating, but what I'm thinking
>about is sharing the clock on a circuit which already has an Atmel
>89C2051 running @ 11.0592MHz with a '84.

Personally,I haven't tried anything like that.
I heared that most of the 16C84 rated at 4MHz will work fine at 10MHz too,
that seems reassuring.

If you are talking about the design of a few circuits: go ahead, it will
work fine in 99% of the cases.
If you are talking about mass production (I assume: not the case), that's
another cup of tea.
1% dropout on each of the 100 components of a device means that less than
1% of the devices will work...

Dirk Van den Berge
.....dvdbRemoveMEspamvub.vub.ac.be
AZ VUB Radiotherapy Dep't
Laarbeeklaan 101
B-1090 Brussels
Belgium
Fax: ++32-2-477 62 12
Tel: ++32-2-477 60 41

'16C84@ 11.0592Mhz'
1997\03\25@124304 by Clewer,Brian

flavicon
face
Elvin wrote...

>Hi,
>Has anyone any comments/experience on running a 16C84 @ 11.0592MHz.
>I know it is 1.0592Mhz faster than the rating, but what I'm thinking
>about is sharing the clock on a circuit which already has an Atmel
>89C2051 running @ 11.0592MHz with a '84. I could divide the clock,
>but what I'd like is to run the '84 as fast as possible.
>Alternatley if someone has a suggestion of how to slow the clock
>for the PIC.
>
>Regards.Elvin


As far as I know, If your PIC runs at the faster speed, you 'probably' will
not have any trouble with the circuit.  The PICs are only guarenteed to work
at these frequecies because that is all they have been tested too.  I would
expect that there is not alot of difference between the 4 and 10 Mhz chips,
but the ones guarenteed to work at 4 have failed the tests at 10Mhz?  This
is not a good idea for production for obvious reasons.

'16C84 @ 11.0592MHz'
1997\03\25@153215 by Todd Peterson

picon face
At 11:23 PM 3/25/97, Elvin Slavik wrote:

>Has anyone any comments/experience on running a 16C84 @ 11.0592MHz.
>I know it is 1.0592Mhz faster than the rating, but what I'm thinking
>about is sharing the clock on a circuit which already has an Atmel
>89C2051 running @ 11.0592MHz with a '84.

I believe they are rated to 10 MHz; I use them for PROTOTYPING ONLY at
speeds up to 16 MHz; 20 MHz will not work; 18 MHz on a good day, certainly
not reliable.  Is this design for production?  If no, then go ahead and use
the 11 MHz signal.  If it will be in production in any quantity, you will
absolutely want to speak with someone at MCHIP.  Do you need the EEPROM, or
could you switch over to a less-expensive variant, such as the 16C61-20 or
such, that is rated at 20 MHz?  Also, will your supply voltage stay a
constant, good +5V?  How about temp range?  I believe these somewhat affect
what freq. range is likely to work.  Anyone know if MCHIP plans a 20 MHz
'84?  That would be ideal for quick prototyping fast circuits.

-Todd




  .--------------------------------------------------------------.
 /  .-.            E-Lab Digital Engineering, Inc.           .-.  \
|  /   \   Embedded Control & Integrated Circuit Solutions  /   \  |
|  \_.  |                                                  |    /  |
|\   | /|      http://www.netins.net/showcase/elab         |\  |  /|
| `---' |                                                  | `---' |
|       |Inquire about our EDE700 Serial LCD Screen Driver!|       |
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|       |--------------------------------------------------|       |
 \     /                                                    \_____/
  `---'

'16C84@ 11.0592Mhz'
1997\03\25@153613 by Mike

flavicon
face
>As far as I know, If your PIC runs at the faster speed, you 'probably' will
>not have any trouble with the circuit.  The PICs are only guarenteed to work
>at these frequecies because that is all they have been tested too.  I would
>expect that there is not alot of difference between the 4 and 10 Mhz chips,
>but the ones guarenteed to work at 4 have failed the tests at 10Mhz?  This
>is not a good idea for production for obvious reasons.


They might be more reliable (in the short term) at a slightly higher voltage
like 5.5v - but long term could fail with no warning.

CMOS devices tend to have a linear speed/voltage relationship.

If you want to run at lower voltage say 3.3 and devices are at max at 5v
and 4Mhz - I would say its a waste of time sampling for 10Mhz at less than 5v.

Rghds


Mike

Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes
academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that
theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic.
                                                                      Massen

'16C84 @ 11.0592MHz'
1997\03\25@171123 by ns

flavicon
face
On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Elvin Slavik wrote:

> Hi,
> Has anyone any comments/experience on running a 16C84 @ 11.0592MHz.
> I know it is 1.0592Mhz faster than the rating, but what I'm thinking
> about is sharing the clock on a circuit which already has an Atmel
> 89C2051 running @ 11.0592MHz with a '84. I could divide the clock,
> but what I'd like is to run the '84 as fast as possible.
> Alternatley if someone has a suggestion of how to slow the clock
> for the PIC.
>
> Regards.Elvin
>

       i'd just like to use this occassion to say that I can
run my 4MHz pic at 16Mhz.  Thats pretty good.  Its a 16C84 and i could
write /read the eeprom, do interrupts and everything as normal.  I
basically ran a 4mhz program at 16Mhz.  its definitely a 4mhz cos it says
-04P on the package.  Didn't work at 25Mhz :(

1997\03\25@220508 by dragon

flavicon
face
At 02:21 PM 3/25/97 -0600, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Why not just use the 16F84 it is rated at 10 mhz.

dragon                  .....dragonSTOPspamspam@spam@topher.net

1997\03\26@011824 by Todd Peterson

picon face
At 08:53 PM 3/25/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Why not just use the 16F84 it is rated at 10 mhz.


I think he is - that is why he said the 11 MHz was 1 MHz over the limit.  He
was wondering if being 1 MHz over the limit was O.K.

Todd Peterson
E-Lab Digital Engineering, Inc.

http://www.netins.net/showcase/elab

1997\03\26@021021 by Elvin Slavik

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Thanks to all giving advice on running PIC *overspeed* @ 11.0592MHz.

For those interested, what I'm thinking of doing is seting up the PIC as
a programmable oscillator to drive an IR diode for remote control. By going
to 10+ MHz, a tight loop (i.e. pin on, nop, pin off, jump) oscillates at
500Khz, inserting
delays will allow it to be *tuned* to other frequencies such as standard
remote
control @ 38KHz. An external interrupt on B0 would be used to receive
serial
data to transmit. It would be nice to also have a variable frequency
receiver, but
I think this is maybe a bit too hard. The choice for using a PIC rather
than a simple
555 based circuit is space (ie 1 chip+res+diode) and the other is software
control.

Regards.Elvin

1997\03\26@155311 by Leon Heller

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picon face
In message <Pine.GSO.3.95.970326085620.25485A-100000@acacia>,
"dlionsEraseMEspam@spam@acs.itd.uts.edu.au" <RemoveMEdlionsspamspamBeGoneACS.ITD.UTS.EDU.AU> writes
>On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Elvin Slavik wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Has anyone any comments/experience on running a 16C84 @ 11.0592MHz.
>> I know it is 1.0592Mhz faster than the rating, but what I'm thinking
>> about is sharing the clock on a circuit which already has an Atmel
>> 89C2051 running @ 11.0592MHz with a '84. I could divide the clock,
>> but what I'd like is to run the '84 as fast as possible.
>> Alternatley if someone has a suggestion of how to slow the clock
>> for the PIC.
>>
>> Regards.Elvin
>>
>
>        i'd just like to use this occassion to say that I can
>run my 4MHz pic at 16Mhz.  Thats pretty good.  Its a 16C84 and i could
>write /read the eeprom, do interrupts and everything as normal.  I
>basically ran a 4mhz program at 16Mhz.  its definitely a 4mhz cos it says
>-04P on the package.  Didn't work at 25Mhz :(

A colleague of mine is doing the same - for a project at home, not work.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Email: spamBeGoneleonKILLspamspam@spam@lfheller.demon.co.uk http://www.lfheller.demon.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424 (home) +44 (0) 1344 385556 (work)


'@#$% Protected Bit in 16C74/JW'
1997\04\24@004414 by tjaart
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Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>
> >
> >In the new parts it can only be erased with a jackhammer.
> >(Thank you, Microchip)
>
> Why do you think this is an advantage? Erasing the protected bit after (or
> even together with) all the program data doesn't seem like stealing code...
>
> Gerhard

I agree. I was actually a bit sarcastic there. The JW parts are intended
for
low cost prototyping, but it is not low cost because of this 'feature'.

I am lucky enough to have two ICEs to work with and really don't envy
those that have to get by with the new JW parts.

Perhaps there is a black market for the older JW parts without this
feature ?
;)

Tjaart van der Walt
tjaartspam_OUTspam@spam@wasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| Another sun-deprived R&D Engineer slaving away in a dungeon |
|             WASP International  http://wasp.co.za           |
|             GSM and GPS value-added applications            |
|  Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686   |   Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973  |
|_____________________________________________________________|


'sam@dgc.se'
1997\05\05@042154 by Sam Giertz
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part 0 19 bytes
nsubscribe piclist


'12C509 @ 9600'
1997\09\04@234717 by David Duffy
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Has anyone tried to use the 12c509 at 9600 Baud ? (4Mhz OTP's)
It works well at 2400 Baud, but even when using the on-chip calibration
value not all chips work at 9600. I'm guessing that the timing must be
off enough not to lock. The 509 is being fed from a PC via a RS-232 > TTL
converter. When I use the JW chip, all is OK. I've run the simulator with
stopwatch and I get the exact bit delays required. I get the feeling that
9600 Baud with these chips is never going to be reliable using the 4Mhz
internal oscillator. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.  :-)
Thanks...
______________________________________
Dave Duffy, Audio Visual Devices
Unit 8, 9-11 Trade Street
Cleveland Qld 4163 Australia
Ph: +61 7 38210362 Fax: +61 7 38210281
E-mail: spamBeGoneAVD@spam@spammailbox.uq.edu.au
______________________________________

1997\09\05@000655 by myke predko

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I haven't tried the 12C509 at 9600 bps, but your problems aren't that
surprising.  When I played around with the first one I got, I found that the
calibration value was good to about 1.5%.

But reading the Microchip literature, they state that the actual accuracy is
closer to 5%.  This means that if you are trying to read in with preset
delays, you're gonna have problems.

Sorry,

myke
{Quote hidden}

"One must invoke enough raw truth to punch a hole in the world" - Darl Af

1997\09\05@001709 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:16:05 +1000 David Duffy <spamBeGoneAVDspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU>
writes:
>Has anyone tried to use the 12c509 at 9600 Baud ? (4Mhz OTP's)
>It works well at 2400 Baud, but even when using the on-chip
>calibration
>value not all chips work at 9600. I'm guessing that the timing must be
>off enough not to lock.

As a a percentage, the timing error will be the same regardless of the
baud rate.  So if that is the problem, it won't work at 2400 either.  At
about 6% error the possibility of missampling the last (MSB) of an 8-bit
character becomes likely.  The calibrated internal RC oscillator will be
marginal.  One way to tolerate higher timing error is to use fewer bits
per character, or only treat the LSBs in a character as significant
(higher order bits should be transmitted as 1's so they will look like a
stop bit if missampled).

1997\09\05@014346 by Kalle Pihlajasaari

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Hi Dave,

> Has anyone tried to use the 12c509 at 9600 Baud ? (4Mhz OTP's)
> It works well at 2400 Baud, but even when using the on-chip calibration
> value not all chips work at 9600. I'm guessing that the timing must be
> off enough not to lock. The 509 is being fed from a PC via a RS-232 > TTL
> converter. When I use the JW chip, all is OK. I've run the simulator with
> stopwatch and I get the exact bit delays required. I get the feeling that
> 9600 Baud with these chips is never going to be reliable using the 4Mhz
> internal oscillator. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.  :-)

A few additional comments.

As mentioned 5% errors should be acceptable for 10 bit (1 + 8 + 1) asynch
data.

The worst case trimming of a 12C50x over temperature and voltage
will be in the 5% region.

The finest trimming step is about 1%

As mentioned the percentage error for the 2400 and 9600 will be the
same so you the error is likely NOT to be the problem in your case.

To achieve the 5% error margins you HAVE to sample close to the mid
bit position so that the sampling point can drift either earlier or
later by the largest margin over the length of the word depending on
the relative bit rates.

There is still some doubt in my mind that the callibration constant
gets loaded properly into the OSCcal register with just one mov
to the register, it is likely just to be me but I load it in 4 times
and have no problem, if I change code to load it just once it sometimes
does not work.  Yuo can have a look at my test code sample at the
link below to see how I do it.  This may be an artifact of using
development programmers for development work but I'm not sure.  I will
worry about it some more when I need those 3 words of code space.

I have shipped products that do either 2400 or 9600 (pin selectable)
on a 12C508 that seem to work ok.  I have plans for others and don't
expect problems.

Cheers
--
Kalle Pihlajasaari   .....kallespamRemoveMEip.co.za   http://www.ip.co.za/ip
Interface Products   P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa
+ 27 (11) 402-7750   Fax: 402-7751    http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle

DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer

1997\09\05@050923 by Frank A. Vorstenbosch

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On Fri 05 Sep, David Duffy <AVDspam@spam@MAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU> wrote:
>
> Has anyone tried to use the 12c509 at 9600 Baud ? (4Mhz OTP's)
> It works well at 2400 Baud, but even when using the on-chip calibration
> value not all chips work at 9600. I'm guessing that the timing must be
> off enough not to lock. The 509 is being fed from a PC via a RS-232 > TTL
> converter. When I use the JW chip, all is OK. I've run the simulator with
> stopwatch and I get the exact bit delays required. I get the feeling that
> 9600 Baud with these chips is never going to be reliable using the 4Mhz
> internal oscillator. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.  :-)

Use it all the time, and it works fine.  Assuming you've got your OSCCAL
set properly, your frequency should be withing 1% or so of 4MHz, more
than accurate enough for reliable async comms.
I found that adding a two-out-of-three majority detect greatly improved
reception accuracy, so you might try that.  To use that, I call a
subroutine rather than reading the pin directly.  The subroutine then
returns the carry flag and W register set to the value of the pin
(and it does the inversion if I'm not using a level shifter IC).

If it works in a JW, then maybe you're not clearing all of your variables?
Or are you accidentally overwriting your OSCCAL value at 0x3ff?

Frank
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank A. Vorstenbosch                           Phone:  +44-181-636 3391
Electronics & Software Engineer                    or:  +44-181-636 3000
Eidos Technologies Ltd., Wimbledon, London      Mobile:  +44-976-430 569

1997\09\05@075743 by Octavio Nogueira

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I've used the 12C509 OTP at 9600 with great success. But just
receiving data. I dont use RS-232>TTL converter, just a 27K resistor.

Octavio
======================================================
Octavio Nogueira  - e-mail:   EraseMEnogueiraRemoveMEspamSTOPspammandic.com.br
http://www.geocities.com/~oct_nogueira
"ProPic" Production PIC Programmer Windows under US$20
====================================================== ----
De: David Duffy <RemoveMEAVDKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTMAILBOX.UQ.EDU.AU>
Para: spamBeGonePICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Data: Sexta-feira, Setembro 05, 1997 12:55
Assunto: 12C509 @ 9600

>Has anyone tried to use the 12c509 at 9600 Baud ? (4Mhz OTP's)
>It works well at 2400 Baud, but even when using the on-chip calibration
>value not all chips work at 9600. I'm guessing that the timing must be
>off enough not to lock. The 509 is being fed from a PC via a RS-232 > TTL
>converter. When I use the JW chip, all is OK. I've run the simulator with
>stopwatch and I get the exact bit delays required. I get the feeling that
>9600 Baud with these chips is never going to be reliable using the 4Mhz
>internal oscillator. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.  :-)
>Thanks...

'509 @ 9600'
1997\09\08@051013 by Frank A. Vorstenbosch

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On Sat 06 Sep, David Duffy wrote:

> Receiver subroutines for you to look at:
> ;---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> rcvr
>          btfsc    gpio,dr           ;start bit arrived ?
>          goto     rcvr              ;no, try again !
>          movlw    .8                ;set data length to 8 bits
>          movwf    s_count           ;save in 's_count' variable
>          call     delay_1_5bit      ;wait until half through next bit
> r_next
>          bcf      status,c          ;clear the carry bit
>          rrf      recreg,same       ;rotate 'c' to bit 7 position
>          btfsc    gpio,dr           ;test received data level
>          bsf      recreg,7          ;set bit 7 if received bit was low
>          call     delay_1bit        ;wait for 1 data bit
>          decfsz   s_count,same      ;all 8 bits received ?
>          goto     r_next            ;no, get next bit
>          retlw    0                 ;return to calling routine

David,

I'm sending this reply to the list as well, hope you won't mind.

This code looks OK, except for the fact that you don't verify the start
bit.  What I usually do (and what UART chips do as well) is that I wait
half a bit time after receiving the start bit, then test the bit again.
If the start bit isn't there, then it must have been a glitch and should
be ignored.


Just To Be Sure
===============

In my application, the 12C508 receives commands from the host PC through
the serial port.  In case the oscillator calibration is out by more than
4%, the software will automagically change its internal timings;  rather
than using a fixed constant I am actually using a variable to store the
time constant.  This variable is initialized to 26-2=24 which should work
if the clock is exactly 4MHz (0.16% error), and is changed whenever
the software detects that the host is more than 5% but less than 25%
faster or slower (bigger errors are probably due to glitches on the
line, etc).  With the proper software on my PC, I can have the 12C508
track my baud rate all the way down to about 2kps and up to about 20kbps.


Majority Detect
===============

> >I found that adding a two-out-of-three majority detect greatly improved
> >reception accuracy, so you might try that.  To use that, I call a
> >subroutine rather than reading the pin directly.  The subroutine then
> >returns the carry flag and W register set to the value of the pin
> >(and it does the inversion if I'm not using a level shifter IC).
>
> Can I impose on you for the code fragments involved please ?

This is a slightly changed version from the one in a current project
(copyright reasons) that I haven't even tried compiling but it
should work:

; +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
; |                                                                     |
; |   Do two-out-of-three majority detect on RS232 input.               |
; |                                                                     |
; +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
;
; In:   -
; Act:  Do two out of three majority detect on RS232 input
; Out:  W and C set to logic level on RS232 input
; Note: 14 cycles including call overhead

Toot            movlw   0
               btfss   RS232_RxD
               xorlw   8
               btfss   RS232_RxD
               xorlw   4
               btfss   RS232_RxD
               xorlw   2
               addwf   pcl
               bcf     status_carry     ; 000 -> 0
               retlw   0
               bcf     status_carry     ; 001 -> 0
               retlw   0
               bcf     status_carry     ; 010 -> 0
               retlw   0
               bcf     status_carry     ; 011 -> 1
               rstlw   1
               bcf     status_carry     ; 100 -> 0
               retlw   0
               bcf     status_carry     ; 101 -> 1
               retlw   1
               bsf     status_carry     ; 110 -> 1
               retlw   1
               bsf     status_carry     ; 111 -> 1
               retlw   1


In my code I needed two versions of this routine, one returning the
non-inverted level, and one the inverted level (for timing reasons).
You can achieve this without duplicating code or making it slower
(hint: CALL Toot+1).

Oscillator Calibration
======================

As other people have said, if the clock is more than about 5% away
you may experience problems.  This isn't a problem, usually, because
the calibration is quite good.

In my application, I put in some Built-In-Test-Code, that outputs a
square wave of 1kHz on one of the pins.  Looking at this with the
scope, I am always surprised what changing the OSCCAL value does.
With the correct OSCCAL value, I found the frequency usually to be
within 0.5% of the expected (at room temperature).

Frank
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frank A. Vorstenbosch                           Phone:  +44-181-636 3391
Electronics & Software Engineer                    or:  +44-181-636 3000
Eidos Technologies Ltd., Wimbledon, London      Mobile:  +44-976-430 569

'12C509 @ 9600'
1997\09\08@193043 by Marc 'Nepomuk' Heuler

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Hi David (David Duffy), in <RemoveME2.2.32.19970905031605.0067c7dcspam_OUTspamdingo.cc.uq.edu.au> on Sep 5 you wrote:

> Has anyone tried to use the 12c509 at 9600 Baud ? (4Mhz OTP's)
> It works well at 2400 Baud, but even when using the on-chip calibration
> value not all chips work at 9600. I'm guessing that the timing must be
> off enough not to lock. The 509 is being fed from a PC via a RS-232 > TTL
> converter.

You should self-calibrate the chip!

Measure the start bit length on a known character (like modems that
autobaud on "A").  Do this often to ensure that temperatur changes cause no
errors.


'12C508 @3V oscillator doesn't'
1997\11\24@231545 by tekatcha
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I've got a 12C508 JW device to work fine with an internal oscillator at 5V
but at 3V it rarely starts up.

I put a test block of code which just oscillates a pin voltage right at
the beginning of memory. Sometimes the unit will start and sometimes it
will start for a few milliseconds then fail.

I changed the calibration value from 30 to FF and it starts all the time
now, I have another unit that has a calibration value of 40 and it is
intermittent even after changing the calibration value to ff.

Is there something that I might be doing wrong or should I be using an
external clock?

Anthony Tekatch

tekatchaspamspampop.ghbbs.com

1997\11\24@234543 by Andrew Mayo

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Be careful. I don't entirely trust the initialisation of the option and
other registers at power up. This seems to lead to erratic behaviour.
Try initialising them - also make sure the chip is not exposed to light
- the JW version will behave erratically under these circumstances.

{Quote hidden}

1997\11\25@011333 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:33:52 +1300 Andrew Mayo <KILLspamandrewspam.....GEAC.CO.NZ>
writes:
>Be careful. I don't entirely trust the initialisation of the option
>and
>other registers at power up. This seems to lead to erratic behaviour.
>Try initialising them - also make sure the chip is not exposed to
>light
>- the JW version will behave erratically under these circumstances.

Whenever using a JW chip at reduced voltages, be sure to erase it
thoroughly.  The "development" programmers only verify at 5V.  Partially
erased bits which read as 1 (erased) at 5V may become 0 (programmed) at
3V.  Even if your programmer checks at 3V, a change in temperature may
change the threshold too.

My completely unverified rule of thumb is to find the minimum time in the
eraser that makes the chip "blank" at 5V, then use twice this time for 5V
circuits or 4x this time for 3V circuits.

1997\11\25@152156 by Andrew Mayo

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Good point. I am using a very powerful UV light out of a water purifier
which will  zap a PIC in about 2 minutes, and even erase a
code-protected windowed part in around 8 minutes. Trouble is the ozone
generation gets a bit fierce so I tend to open all the windows and
vacate the room for a bit.

{Quote hidden}

1997\11\25@222443 by J Nagy

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>Be careful. I don't entirely trust the initialisation of the option and
>other registers at power up. This seems to lead to erratic behaviour.
>Try initialising them - also make sure the chip is not exposed to light
>- the JW version will behave erratically under these circumstances.
>
>> ----------
>>
>> I've got a 12C508 JW device to work fine with an internal oscillator
>> at 5V
>> but at 3V it rarely starts up.
>>...

       I can't agree. I've got a couple '508 JWs and have never had
trouble with either the internal osc (at 3V or at 5V), or with light in the
window. (I use the internal oscillator 90% of the time, too!) I would think
that your problem might be more with either watchdog period, with pullup
resistances, or with input thresholds changing with Vdd. Are you sure your
application code is OK?

       Jim

1997\11\25@225324 by tekatcha

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>>Be careful. I don't entirely trust the initialisation of the option and
>>other registers at power up. This seems to lead to erratic behaviour.
>>Try initialising them - also make sure the chip is not exposed to light
>>- the JW version will behave erratically under these circumstances.
>>> ----------
>>> I've got a 12C508 JW device to work fine with an internal oscillator
>>> at 5V but at 3V it rarely starts up.

>        I can't agree. I've got a couple '508 JWs and have never had
>trouble with either the internal osc (at 3V or at 5V), or with light in
>the window. (I use the internal oscillator 90% of the time, too!) I would
>think that your problem might be more with either watchdog period, with
>pullup resistances, or with input thresholds changing with Vdd. Are you
>sure your application code is OK?

One can never be 100% sure of their application code :-)

- The Watchdog timer is disabled.

- My test code oscillator is the first thing that executes:

 ;test beeper - place this anywhere to see if code reaches here.
 BEEPER  MOVLW B'11101111';GP4 Output
         TRIS  GPIO
 BEEPEND BSF   GPIO,4   ;Make pin high
         NOP
         BCF   GPIO,4   ;Make pin low
         GOTO  BEEPEND

- Will the pullups affect the "beeper" code above? All the pins will be
inputs except GP4. I suppose a floating signal will cause high current if
the input hovers near the switch-over point. I did leave one input
floating (it is used as an output later in the code).

- The 3V VDD is from two AA batteries which should not vary too much and I
even put a 0.1uF capacitor across it before connecting it to the PIC so
that there would be a fast rise time on power up in case the internal
resistance of the batteries was too high.


Anthony Tekatch

tekatchaspamspampop.ghbbs.com

1997\11\26@203939 by J Nagy

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{Quote hidden}

I don't see how pullups would affect this code and open inputs need time to
drift. As for the supply, I often use 2*AAA batteries to power things.
Never had any problems yet. Maybe my initial guesses weren't that good...I
think I'd begin looking at the incomplete erasing theory!

For interests sake - my Datarase II will erase the program memory of a '508
JW in about 4-5 mins, the ID codes and OscCal word in about 9-10 minutes
when I read the contents at 5V. By design, my programmer always checks at
2.5V (the min spec), though, and doesn't give an OK on a 'blank check'
until I get to 16-19 minutes. For this reason, I always give it 20 minutes+
(depends how busy I am... I'll have to make a PIC timer some day...).
       Jim

1997\11\26@214144 by tekatcha

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>...I think I'd begin looking at the incomplete erasing theory!

I had a chance to test my circuit again today and the erasing of 20
minutes (instead of 4) gave good results on a chip that seemed unusable at
3V in the past.

>For interests sake - my Datarase II will erase the program memory of a
>'508 JW in about 4-5 mins, the ID codes and OscCal word in about 9-10
>minutes when I read the contents at 5V. By design, my programmer always
>checks at 2.5V (the min spec), though, and doesn't give an OK on a 'blank
>check' until I get to 16-19 minutes. For this reason, I always give it 20
>minutes+ (depends how busy I am... I'll have to make a PIC timer some
>day...).

That's a good idea. Maybe a unit that constantly reads the PIC (at it's
lowest voltage) while it is being UV erased, then shuts off the lamp and
rings a bell when all bits have been erased.

Thanks to all that helped me with this problem.

Anthony Tekatch

KILLspamtekatchaspamBeGonespampop.ghbbs.com


'Please unsubscribe the user: jaudette@matrox.com'
1997\12\15@200224 by Karl Baker
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The user no longer works at out company and his account will be removed.


--------------------------------------------------------------
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Unix Systems Administrator                      
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--------------------------------------------------------------


'Running PIC16C84-4 @ 12MHz'
1998\01\06@114336 by Rickard Gunie
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How fast can a PIC16C84 run ? I would like to run it @ 12MHz, have
anyone tried this ? I have done it with one chip, it broke after a
couple times of reprogramming. Is it possible to determine if the chip
can run @ 12Mhz without breaking it ?

1998\01\06@132654 by Rickard Gunie

flavicon
face
Paul Haas wrote:

> You'll have better luck if you start with a PIC16F84-10.  The -10
> means 10
> Mhz.  The -4 in the subject indicates 4 Mhz, so you were trying to run
> at
> 3 times the rated speed.  Running a -10 at 12Mhz is only 1.2 times out
> of
> spec.  (The 16F84 is an improved version of the 16C84, it was
> previously
> known as the 16C84A.  The 16C84 is discontinued.)

I used a -10 first, it worked fine, they broke by other reasons though,
and I only had two of them, so that's why I tried the -4 version. I'll
use the -10 chip when I get more of them, but it would be nice if it
worked with the -4 chip, scince they're twice as cheap as the -10 chips,
(when I buy them anyway).  The project i'm working on is a PONG game
using only a PIC16F84, 5 Resistors and a Chrystal, so I need the speed
to get better x-resolution on the screen.

{Quote hidden}

ok, intersting, Thanx

1998\01\06@135017 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:41:05 +0100 Rickard Gunie <@spam@e96rgSTOPspamspam@spam@EFD.LTH.SE>
writes:
>How fast can a PIC16C84 run ? I would like to run it @ 12MHz, have
>anyone tried this ? I have done it with one chip, it broke after a
>couple times of reprogramming. Is it possible to determine if the chip
>can run @ 12Mhz without breaking it ?

It won't cause the chip to "break" exceeding the clock speed.  It will
just suffer from "soft" malfunctions.  Maybe the last reprogramming
required one of the slower bits in the code EEPROM to work where the
other ones didn't.  I've had a F84-10 going at 16 MHz but it definitely
wouldn't do 20.  This will vary from chip to chip and from program to
program.

Of course there's no guarantee that the chip will work.  You may be able
to test each one at a speed faster than the final application requires
and reject the ones that don't work.  If the C84 chip could work reliably
faster than 10 MHz, Microchip would certainly advertise it.

>

1998\01\06@163918 by Rickard Gunie

flavicon
face
Paul Haas wrote:

> On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Rickard Gunie wrote:
>
> > Paul Haas wrote:
>
> > ...  The project i'm working on is a PONG game
> > using only a PIC16F84, 5 Resistors and a Chrystal, so I need the
> speed
> > to get better x-resolution on the screen.
>
> And 2 capacitors to go with the chrystal?

works fine without any caps (I'm lazy), so far anyway, heh, is it
hazardous to skip'em ? (I get a nice picture on my TV, so it seems to
work to me)

> > > ...  So, use an external oscillator.
>
> My earlier suggestions blow the parts budget.  So ignore them.

heh, yes, scince this is just for fun, the budget is quite limited =)

> Write a blinking LED program, or get one from the net.  Make sure it
> works
> at 4Mhz. Then run it at 12 Mhz.  Hook the PIC up to a variable voltage
>
> power supply (an LM317T, a resistor and a potentiometer).  Find out
> the
> minimum and maximum operating voltages.  (But never go above 6
> volts!).

What voltage should I use then, the maximum or the minimum och in the
middle ? If I don't want it to get warm I guess that the current should
be as low as possible then ? (or would minimum current make the
oscillator to stop ?)

1998\01\07@120351 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:24:03 +0100 Rickard Gunie <e96rgspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneEFD.LTH.SE>
writes:
 The project i'm working on is a PONG game
>using only a PIC16F84, 5 Resistors and a Chrystal, so I need the speed
>to get better x-resolution on the screen.

If you don't need the data EEPROM, use one of the 18-pin EPROM PICs like
a 16C61, 16C55X, etc.  They have everything the X84 does except data
EEPROM.  Most are rated to about 20 MHz.  Sounds like an interesting
project.
>
>> If I remember correctly, the oscillator in the chip is one of the
>> first
>> things to fail at high speeds.  So, use an external oscillator.

Since the fastest F84 is only 10 Mhz, and most of the other PICs are at
least 20, I suspect the limitation is the code EEPROM.

 I think you want keep the temperature low
>> and
>> the supply voltage high (ie. if the part is normally rated at 4 to 6
>> volts, it is more likely to work at 6 volts than at 4 volts.)

This sounds right.  The F84 in HS mode is rated from 4.5 to 5.5V, at
slower speeds it can go down to 3V.

1998\01\07@131520 by Rickard Gunie

flavicon
face
Mike Keitz wrote:

> If you don't need the data EEPROM, use one of the 18-pin EPROM PICs
> like
> a 16C61, 16C55X, etc.  They have everything the X84 does except data
> EEPROM.  Most are rated to about 20 MHz.  Sounds like an interesting
> project.

Scince this is just for fun I don't want to get a new programmer and
lot«s of new chips, so i'll use the PIC16F84-10 instead.

1998\01\09@154651 by Marc Heuler

flavicon
face
Hi Rickard (Rickard Gunie), in <spamBeGone34B25EA1.3503E436spamefd.lth.se> on Jan 6 you
wrote:

> How fast can a PIC16C84 run ? I would like to run it @ 12MHz, have
> anyone tried this ? I have done it with one chip, it broke after a
> couple times of reprogramming. Is it possible to determine if the chip
> can run @ 12Mhz without breaking it ?

Buy the 10 MHz Version. It will probably run 12 MHz without too much
trouble.

'&3=l*:, /q4<*:, +\;E*:9C@8%z:P AM 07:25:4'
1998\01\23@184224 by dontreply

flavicon
face
&p1z$#D@7N15(|&9$h-1*:8j0T,=P*=15'R0#,%4BZ$F0U!!  ^_^

$62P1z$@-S&n*1*:, &3=l*:, /q4<*:, +\;E*:9C@8%z:P
<<< Aa>n&rA< >>> -^;y3f&r6q&r=L9C@8 CROSSWORD GAME
              !=!<!<    !=!=!=
              !<!=!=!=!=W !<!<!=
            !=!=!<!=C R O S S !=!=
              !<!<!=!=!=R !=!=!=
              !=!=!=!<!=D !=!<!<!<
                !<  !=  !=  !=
&39S;+CX<z! =P(S7Hx0 http://www.supplierinfo.com.tw/xword
         /,
            8U(F&p7N
                       FREY SYSTEMS LTD. 7q$W

1998\01\23@191415 by Alberto Smulders

flavicon
FUCK YOU !!!!!!
-----Mensaje original-----
De: spam_OUTdontreplySTOPspamspamMS3.HINET.NET <RemoveMEdontreplyspamspamMS3.HINET.NET>
Para: TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Fecha: Viernes 23 de Enero de 1998 19:47
Asunto: &3=l*:, /q4<*:, +\;E*:9C@8%z:P AM 07:25:42


{Quote hidden}


'Can't reach sphere@hardline.com'
1998\02\03@021402 by Josef Hanzal
flavicon
face
For several days I cannot reach Mike at sphereRemoveMEspamhardline.com. Mike, can you
hear me here ? Please, respond privately. Thanks for bandwith. (Not OT,
trying to buy PICs :-)

Josef, EraseMEeuroclassSTOPspamspamRemoveMEpha.pvtnet.cz

'Can't reach sphere@hardline.demon.co.ukcom'
1998\02\03@021608 by Josef Hanzal

flavicon
face
For several days I cannot reach Mike at spam_OUTsphereRemoveMEspamEraseMEhardline.demon.co.uk. Mike,
can you hear me here ? Please, respond privately. Thanks for bandwith. (Not
OT, trying to buy PICs :-) (Mistyped e-mail in previous post.)

Josef, TakeThisOuTeuroclassRemoveMEspam@spam@pha.pvtnet.cz


'[OT] Andrew Fairbank '
1998\03\20@061829 by Chris Mayhew
flavicon
face
But no thanks for you for re-posting the B&%$#Y THING !!!!!!!!


'Opto-isolator Question [PIC@alliedpress.co.nz]'
1998\05\26@220352 by John La Rooy
flavicon
face
You could try two opto-isolators in a bridge. Turn one on with the
3-30V and the other one on with your PIC circuit. When the bridge is
balanced, the current through both diodes should be about the same.

Obviously the accuracy will depend on how similar the optos are.

John

{Quote hidden}


'"Dave Biondi" : [J] Toaster'
1998\06\19@171959 by Harold Hallikainen
picon face
--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
From: "Dave Biondi" <EraseMEdbiondiRemoveMEspambroadcast.net>
To: spamjocularity.....spamspambroadcast.net
Subject: [J] Toaster Software Development Project History
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:06:22 -0500
Message-ID: <199806191506.KAA08195spam_OUTspam@spam@ns.broadcast.net>

Toaster Software Development Project History

Day 1:  My boss, an engineer from the pre-CAD days, has successfully
brought a generation of products from Acme Toaster Corp's
engineering labs to market.  Bob is a wonder of mechanical ingenuity.
All of us in the design department have the utmost respect for him,
so I was honored when he appointed me the lead designer on the new
Acme 2000 Toaster.

Day 6:  We met with the president, head of sales, and the marketing
vice president today to hammer out the project's requirements and
specifications.  Here at Acme, our market share is eroding to
low-cost imports.  We agreed to meet a cost of goods of $9.50
(100,000).  I've identified the critical issue in the new design:  a
replacement for the timing spring we've used since the original 1922
model.  Research with the focus groups shows that consumers set high
expectations for their breakfast foods.  Cafe latte from Starbucks
goes best with a precise level of toast browning.  The Acme 2000 will
give our customers the breakfast experience they desire. I estimated
a design budget of $21,590 for this project and final delivery in
seven weeks. I'll need one assistant designer to help with the
drawing packages. This is my first chance to supervise!

Day 23:  We've found the ideal spring material.  Best of all, it's a
well-proven technology.  Our projected cost of goods is almost $1.50
lower than our goal.  Our rough prototype, which was completed just
12 days after we started, has been servicing the employee cafeteria
for a week without a single hiccup.  Toast quality exceeds
projections.

Day 24:  A major aerospace company that had run out of defense
contractors to acquire has just snapped up that block of Acme stock
sold to the Mackenzie family in the '50s.  At a company wide
meeting, corporate assured us that this sale was only an investment
and that nothing will change.

Day 30:  I showed the Acme 2000's exquisitely crafted toast-timing
mechanism to Ms. Primrose, the new engineering auditor. The single
spring and four interlocking lever arms are things of beauty to me.

Day 36:  The design is complete.  We're starting a prototype run of
500 toasters tomorrow.  I'm starting to wrap up the engineering
effort.  My new assistant did a wonderful job.

Day 38:  Suddenly, a major snag happened.  Bob called me into his
office.  He seemed very uneasy as he informed me that those on high
feel that the Acme 2000 is obsolete - something about using springs
in the silicon age.  I reminded Bob that the consultants had looked
at using a microprocessor but figured that an electronic design would
exceed our cost target by almost 50% with no real benefit in terms
of toast quality.  "With a computer, our customers can load the bread
the night before, program a finish time, and get a perfect slice of
toast when they awaken," Bob intoned, as if reading from a script.

Day 48:  Bill Compguy, the new microprocessor whiz, scrapped my idea
of using a dedicated 4-bit CPU.  "We need some horsepower if we're
gonna program this puppy in C," he said, while I stared fascinated
at the old crumbs stuck in his wild beard. "Time-to-market, you know.
Delivery is due in three months. We'll just pop this cool new
8-bitter I found into it, whip up some code, and ship to the end
user."

Day 120:  The good news is that I'm getting to stretch my
mechanical-design abilities.  Bill convinced management that the old
spring-loaded, press-down lever control is obsolete.  I've designed
a "motorized insertion port," stealing ideas from a CD-ROM drive.
Three cross-coupled, safety-interlock micro switches ensure that the
heaters won't come on unless users properly insert the toast.  We're
seeing some reliability problems due to the temperature extremes, but
I'm sure we can work those out.

Day 132:  New schedule:  We now expect delivery in three months.
We've replaced the 8-bitter with a Harvard-architecture, 16-bit,
3-MIPS CPU.

Day 172:  New schedule:  We now expect delivery in three months.

Day 194:  The auditors convinced management we really need a
graphical user interface with a full-screen LCD.  "You're gonna need
some horsepower to drive that," Bill warned us.  "I recommend a 386
with a half-meg of RAM."  He went back to design Revision J of the
PC board.

Day 268:  New schedule:  We now expect delivery in three months.
We've cured most of the electronics' temperature problems with a pair
of fans, though management is complaining about the noise. Bob sits
in his office all day, door locked, drinking Jack Daniels.  Like
clockwork, his wife calls every night around midnight, sobbing.  I'm
worried about him and mentioned my concern to Chuck.  "Wife?"  he
asked.  "Wife?  Yeah, I think I've got one of those, and two or
three kids, too.  Now, let's just stick another meg of RAM in here,
OK?"

Day 290:  We gave up on the custom GUI and are now installing
Windows CE.  The auditors applauded Bill's plan to upgrade to a
Pentium with 32 Mbytes of RAM.  There's still no functioning code,
but the toaster is genuinely impressive.  Four circuit boards,
bundles of cables, and a gigabit of hard-disk space. "This sucker has
more computer power than the entire world did 20 years ago," Bill
boasted proudly.

Day 384:  Toast quality is sub-par.  The addition of two more
cooling fans keeps the electronics to a reasonable temperature but
removes too much heat from the toast.  I'm struggling with baffles to
vector the air, but the thrust of all these fans spins the toaster
around.

Day 410:  New schedule:  We now expect delivery in three months. We
switched From C++ to Java.  "That'll get them pesky
memory-allocation bugs, for sure," Bill told his team of 15
programmers.  This approach seems like a good idea to me, because
Java is platform-independent, and there are rumors circulating that
we're porting to a SPARC station.

Day 530:  New schedule:  We now expect delivery in three months. I
mastered the temperature problems by removing all of the fans and
the heating elements.  The Pentium is now thermally bonded to the
toast. We found a thermal grease that isn't too poisonous. Our
marketing people feel that the slight degradation in taste from the
grease will be more than compensated for by the "toasting experience
that can only come from a CISC-based, 32-bit multitasking machine
running the latest multi-platform software."

Day 610:  The product ships.  It weighs 72 lb and costs $325.

Bill is promoted to CEO.

--------- End forwarded message ----------

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


'VVVOT: Rejected posting to PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU '
1998\07\23@130623 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
Have I just discovered a hole in a hash algorythm, or does someone need to
tune a filter on the PICLIST ? ;)

Peter

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:53:43 -0400
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To: "Peter (plp)" <plpKILLspamspamEraseMEactcom.co.il>
Subject: Rejected posting to EraseMEPICLIST@spam@spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Your message  is being returned to  you unprocessed because it  appears to have
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getting two copies of the same message.

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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:00:57 +0000 (   )
From: "Peter L. Peres" <TakeThisOuTplpspamactcom.co.il>
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On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Nuno Pedrosa wrote:

{Quote hidden}

It takes two, it's a special case, and this is one of those things when
you're told to believe and not to enquire.

Peter


'RE : 75805312@IT.IBM.COM'
1998\08\13@195004 by Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG
flavicon
face
I don't know what happen.
I don't send nothing to the list.
I don't have set autoanswer for vacation.
Maybe same malfuction to my company mail system.
Let me investigate.
Sorry for now.


                      Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG

1998\08\13@195757 by Ryan Pogge

flavicon
face
OK,
no problem.


-----Original Message-----
From: Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG <spam75805312spamIT.IBM.COM>
To: PICLISTSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTSTOPspamspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 7:53 PM
Subject: RE : @spam@75805312.....spamspamIT.IBM.COM



I don't know what happen.
I don't send nothing to the list.
I don't have set autoanswer for vacation.
Maybe same malfuction to my company mail system.
Let me investigate.
Sorry for now.


                      Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG


'12c671JWs @ digikey'
1998\10\06@190546 by Henry C. Ott
picon face
Hi Folks,

If anybody cares,
digikey has 800 pcs of 12c671JW listed as in stock on their web page.
No 12c672JWs though.

later....

-----
spamcarlott.....spam.....interport.net


'Philips TV/VCR PLL @ low Fosc anyone ?'
1998\11\13@060938 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
Hello,

 has anyone tried to run a Philips TV/VCR synthesizer chip at a lower
Fosc than specified to obtain lower channel spacing (as required for HF
and other apps) ?

 Are there implications on the I2C timing due to this ?

Peter

1998\11\13@071251 by Bart Stofferis

flavicon
face
Hi Peter,

I used the SDA3302 in a homebuilt 70cm packet radio transceiver.
There is also an equivalent TSA xxxx i can't remember now ...

I2C controlled, 1,2 GHz, very easy to control with a PIC

Bart, ON6HF

{Quote hidden}

1998\11\13@164558 by Mike Morrin

flavicon
face
At 01:01 pm 11/13/98 +0000, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>  has anyone tried to run a Philips TV/VCR synthesizer chip at a lower
>Fosc than specified to obtain lower channel spacing (as required for HF
>and other apps) ?

The problem with these chips is that they are generally single modulus
dividers, so the loop bandwidth must be very low  to get small channel step
size, leading to very slow lock times.

Most communications synthesisers (12.5kHz channel spacing or less) use dual
modulus divider chains to improve the loop bandwidth.  The TV/VCR synth
chips are generally not compatible with dual modulus dividers.  There are a
number of dual modulus compatible synth chips out there (e.g. from Motorola).

For HF work with step size of a few Hz, a fractional N synthesiser is the
way to go.  I am not aware of commercially availble chipsets for fractional N.

regards,

Mike Morrin

1998\11\13@175635 by Brian Robinson

flavicon
face
There are commercially available Fractional-N chips from Texas
Instruments,   and I think that Philips has one now also.

However,  there are lots of potential problems with Fractional N to watch
out for.  If I was building from scratch for HF,  I would use a DDS chip,
probably  followed with some sort of simple PLL for very large frequency
steps, and to clean up the DDS signal.  I believe one or two of the ham
vendors have at least one radio with DDS.

Regards,
Brian Robinson

{Original Message removed}

1998\11\15@111707 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Bart Stofferis wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> I used the SDA3302 in a homebuilt 70cm packet radio transceiver.
> There is also an equivalent TSA xxxx i can't remember now ...
>
> I2C controlled, 1,2 GHz, very easy to control with a PIC

Thanks,

what was your channel pitch ?

Peter

1998\11\15@111716 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Brian Robinson wrote:

> There are commercially available Fractional-N chips from Texas
> Instruments,   and I think that Philips has one now also.

I don't want fractional N, I'd rather build a straight programmable
divider with a bucketfull of HCTs.

> However, there are lots of potential problems with Fractional N to watch
> out for.  If I was building from scratch for HF, I would use a DDS chip,
>  probably  followed with some sort of simple PLL for very large frequency
> steps, and to clean up the DDS signal.  I believe one or two of the ham
> vendors have at least one radio with DDS.

Yes. Have you noticed the price tag ?

I was thinking of a cheap Philips tuner synth used with a much slower
clock (maybe 100 kHz) and a very slow loop to achieve a very fine channel
pitch. Usually they use 4MHz for a 200 kHz pitch so 100 kHz = 200/40 = 5
kHz which begins to be reasonable. I don't mind using a prescaler with
this setup.

The question was, whether any1 has tried to run the Philips parts this
slow, i.e. whether they are static CMOS, and whether there are nasty
implications on the I2C timing and on the phase comparator outputs (which
usually use some funky proprietary digital PLL algorythms near the lock
point for extra stability etc).

Peter

1998\11\15@141657 by Mike Morrin

flavicon
face
At 06:06 pm 11/15/98 +0000, Peter L. Peres wrote:
>On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Brian Robinson wrote:
>
>I was thinking of a cheap Philips tuner synth used with a much slower
>clock (maybe 100 kHz) and a very slow loop to achieve a very fine channel
>pitch. Usually they use 4MHz for a 200 kHz pitch so 100 kHz = 200/40 = 5
>kHz which begins to be reasonable. I don't mind using a prescaler with
>this setup.

After my last post, I remembered the REAL problem with the Philips TV tuner
synths when applied to HF applications.

If you look at the block diagram of the chip, you will see that there is a
fixed divide-by-8 prescaler in front of the programmable divider.  This
means that you must run the phase detector and loop 8 x slower than if you
used a synth chip with a direct input to the programmable divider.

regards,

Mike Morrin

1998\11\15@201749 by Norman Gillaspie

flavicon
face
There are also some low cost single chip PLL's used for
shortwave radio and Satellite receiver sound sections.

I beleive there is a Seimens ( there are others) part that some mixers,
2 PLL's and a variable bandwidth FM demod. It looks real interesting.
I think all these had 1Khz tuning steps. I think the shortwave PLL's had
a fine tune cap on the reference to interpolate between steps.

One of the thing to watch out for was the 1khz sampling spurs. They
of course are in the audio band.

If you want to here how bad some of the TV  synthesizers are get a narrow
band FM receiver and if you have a CATV converter box listen to the FM
audio carrier after the signal has been moved to channel 3. It is horriable
The reason they can get away with it on a TV is that they intercarrier
mix down process removes a lot of the phase noise with this process.

Norman


"PC-Sat provides quality Usenet Newshosting and Newsfeeds for ISP and
Corporations. Interested see http://www.pc-sat.com"

'laser filter.@670nm'
1998\11\19@003824 by STEVE TOMES

flavicon
face
     I am working on a pic program to decode modulated and       amplified,
weak, visable laser signals.
     I am looking for a cheep filter, any ideas??
                         Thanks for any thoughts....Steve T

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1998\11\19@070409 by Roland Andrag

flavicon
face
Hello!

>      I am working on a pic program to decode modulated and       amplified,
>weak, visable laser signals.
>     I am looking for a cheep filter, any ideas??
>                         Thanks for any thoughts....Steve T

If this is a one-off project, this might be a solution:

Try getting hold of safety glasses for use with lasers - the are
available in various flavours to block/pass various wavelengths.
Since you are working with red light, you probably want red glasses
to only pass through the red light. ie. You are looking for glasses
designed to block out the shorter wavelengths (ble and green).

Then butcher the glasses and use the lenses as filters.

Cheers
Roland

1998\11\19@081831 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
>Hello!
>
>>      I am working on a pic program to decode modulated and       amplified,
>>weak, visable laser signals.
>>     I am looking for a cheep filter, any ideas??
>>                         Thanks for any thoughts....Steve T
>
>If this is a one-off project, this might be a solution:
>
>Try getting hold of safety glasses for use with lasers - the are
>available in various flavours to block/pass various wavelengths.
>Since you are working with red light, you probably want red glasses
>to only pass through the red light. ie. You are looking for glasses
>designed to block out the shorter wavelengths (ble and green).
>
>Then butcher the glasses and use the lenses as filters.
>
>Cheers
> Roland

Another thing that can be "butchered" is discarded remotes and receiver
modules from TVs, VCRs, etc.
Sometimes the filter is really IR and is opaque to visible light; sometimes
it is just deep red. Even if it's not an exact match for your diode, it may
improve the S/N quite a bit by just getting rid of most input at shorter
wavelengths.

Reg Neale

'Philips TV/VCR PLL @ low Fosc anyone ?'
1998\11\19@095723 by Bart Stofferis

flavicon
face
Hi Peter,

I used the SDA3302 in a homebuilt 70cm packet radio transceiver.
There is also an equivalent TSA xxxx i can't remember now ...

I2C controlled, 1,2 GHz, very easy to control with a PIC

Bart, ON6HF

{Quote hidden}

1998\11\19@095730 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Hello,

 has anyone tried to run a Philips TV/VCR synthesizer chip at a lower
Fosc than specified to obtain lower channel spacing (as required for HF
and other apps) ?

 Are there implications on the I2C timing due to this ?

Peter


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'16C77 @20Mhz A/D question'
1999\02\05@132614 by Howard McGinnis

flavicon
face
I'm having some problems with the A/D on a 16C77 operating at 20MHZ.
Apparently the sample and hold time is not long enough. I'm using the
fOsc/32. I'm going to try converting twice, but is there an easier way short
of using either a slower crystal or an external RC for the A/D?

TIA,
Howard
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard McGinnis                   Electronic Visions, Inc
@spam@hmcginnispamspamdigital.net            1650 Barrett Drive
(407) 632-7530                      Rockledge FL 32955
FAX (407) 632-3396               http://ddi.digital.net/~hmcginni

1999\02\05@135500 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Howard McGinnis wrote:
> I'm having some problems with the A/D on a 16C77 operating at 20MHZ.
> Apparently the sample and hold time is not long enough. I'm using the
> fOsc/32. I'm going to try converting twice, but is there an easier way short
> of using either a slower crystal or an external RC for the A/D?

Hi Howard,
fosc/32 is fine. The important thing is to wait a long enough time after
switching the input select(or waiting long enough after a conversion, if
you are not switching inputs) before doing another conversion. If you
follow the little formula in the data sheet you will get mediocre
accuracy. If you can wait 25usec you'll get good results. Also remember
that the input signal is disconnected for a short period of time after
conversion. That's included in the data sheet formula, but easy to
overlook, hence my suggestion of 25usec after a conversion before
attempting another.

Cheers,
Bob "a 20mhz user"

1999\02\05@142615 by Howard McGinnis

flavicon
face
To Bob and others that may respond:

"RTFM" is the key. After a billion years of working with off the shelf A/D
systems, I'm so used to the S&H being an integral part of the process -
commanding a conversion strokes the S&H for the required time after which
the A/D is issued a start conversion. My problem was that I selected the
channel, then issued the start conversion - assuming that the S&H and A/D
were together.

Thanks for the quick response(s)! This is a great list!

Howard
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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TakeThisOuThmcginniKILLspamspam@spam@digital.net            1650 Barrett Drive
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'Auto-sync RS-232 @19200 for 12c508'
1999\02\09@101902 by Ralph Stickley

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face
Auto-Calibrating RS-232 (12C508)

Just wondering if the 'wildly' varying (chip to chip)
operating frequency of the 12C508 can be overcome for
asynchronous communications.  Maybe someone out there
was wondering the same thing ?:-))

Assume:
1.  Data sent is 7 bits or 8 bits
2.  First bit sent (bit0) is a 'one' which is used to
   allow us to time the start bit pulse width
3.  Transmitters and receivers may vary over time/temperature
   so we do synchronization on every byte
4.  Clock frequency on 12c508 may be +/- 10%
5.  Calculated timer is averaged each time

This should allow any chip to act as a receiver from a
host 'PC' or even another 12C5x chip.

It seems to pass the simulation tests at 19200 baud nominal
rate and 19200 with +/-10 cycle error (40uS per bit simulates
a 12c508 running at 3.600 MHz).  Dang near got 38400 to
work...hmmmm...maybe some more bit tricks...

Since the simulator is in lock step with the clock cycles,
I changed the bits to be 'received' at different clock
cycles. Changing the clock in the simulator does nothing
to adjust the rate at which the data is "received" from
the stimulus files.

An excel spreadsheet file is included which generates the
stimulus files - this might be handy for some other projects
as well.

Also, I included a neat macro LOCALx, to overlay temporary
variables used within functions within a file (similar ot
overlaid variables between files, careful..read the notes!).
Lots of bit twiddling tricks just for funzies too.

Any suggestions on a better way to do this ?
Any one want to try this on real chips ?

(Note: In '8' bit mode, (8 data bits with 1 sync bit)
I'm assuming the host is sending a parity bit as data,
can we do that from a standard PC?)

I'll probably get brave and test it when my samples
arrive, when I get a programmer, etc.etc... <;-)

Thanks for any advice, enjoy...

Ralph

P.S. I uploaded the code to
http://www.iversoft.com

The receive function is about 35 bytes of code. The
explanation of the receive function is about twice that!
The stimulus files and spreadsheet files explode to a
couple'o 100K.

*Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most*

1999\02\09@215108 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:13:21 -0800 Ralph Stickley <.....rstickleyRemoveMEspamDATALUX.COM>
writes:

>2.  First bit sent (bit0) is a 'one' which is used to
>    allow us to time the start bit pulse width
>3.  Transmitters and receivers may vary over time/temperature
>    so we do synchronization on every byte

It's a good idea.  It should work at any speed since the error is a
percentage.  But at higher speeds, the precision with which the start bit
can be measured and the speed adjusted is less.

If you send fewer bits per byte, the uncompensated speed error can be
greater and the data still OK.  Clock speed error accumulates during the
byte, so as error increases, the MSB will be first affected.  For
example, use only the 4 LSBs and set the rest to 1 so they are the same
as stop bits.  This should let an uncompensated routine (one that doesn't
adjust the speed) operate with twice the clock speed error as using all 7
or 8 bits.  In the extreme case, just send a start bit, one bit of data,
and one or more stop bits.  It's not very efficient but very large clock
errors could be tolerated.



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1999\02\10@160759 by Ralph Stickley

flavicon
face
Nice idea...in a calibration routine you could use the start bit and 3
data bits, take the resulting time period and divide by 4 for easy
math...any longer stream of bits and TMR0 could roll over
(at 19200 baud - a relative 55uS/bit (4.25MHz PIC clock) - 220 count
max).

However, I was trying to get the 19200 baud RS-232 interface
to work with a non-crystal based clock (internal 4MHz oscillator) with
every byte containing valid data - 7 or 8 bits.

If the chip is accurate to +/- 10%, this code "should" work...
(works on 'paper'/simulator anyhow :-)

Ralph


Mike Keitz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I think the measurement precision is always the same, however, the
percent
error is higher at higher baud rates, unless I'm missing something....

{Quote hidden}

If you have to do that, just cut your baud rate in half...

> ___________________________________________________________________
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> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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1999\02\10@192510 by J Nagy

flavicon
face
>
>>2.  First bit sent (bit0) is a 'one' which is used to
>>    allow us to time the start bit pulse width
>>3.  Transmitters and receivers may vary over time/temperature
>>    so we do synchronization on every byte
>
>It's a good idea.  It should work at any speed since the error is a
>percentage.  But at higher speeds, the precision with which the start bit
>can be measured and the speed adjusted is less.
>

       The one thing I've run into, though is the 'latency' in detecting
the start bit. Since the '508 has no capture or interrupt modes, you have
to poll really rapidly while doing your other (main?) function. Even a
tight loop can take as much as 10uS to detect a start condition. This error
is relatively constant, and limits your highest data rate.


       Jim Nagy
       Elm Electronics
Makers of unique integrated circuits
http://www.elmelectronics.com/

1999\02\11@101207 by Ralph Stickley

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face
Ohhhhhh...you want to do something else besides Comms ?? Hmmmmmmmm....
Oops, add another one to the assumption list!

I was planning on synching my processing to the comms:
1.  wait to receive a byte
2.  do processing stuff
3.  goto 1

I think this loop should take between 2/4 cycles (3-5 cycles before
the TMR0 is cleared.

waitStart:
     btfss    PIN_RX
     goto     waitStart
     clr      TMR0

which is executed by the PIC as:
     btfss
     goto
     nop
     btfss

If the start bit is received 1 nano-second after the btfss samples the
pin, the processor executes 4 full instructions (plus the last cycle of
the btfss instruction) as follows:
     goto
     nop
     btfss
     nop

However, this 'missed' timing is also compensated by the fact that we
have the same 'miss' overhead when polling for the end of the start bit.

Best case, the "start" of the start bit and the "end" of the start bit
occur at exactly the same point in both polling loops. TMR0 is then the
actual time of the bit (minus the TMR0 2 cycle reload).

Worst case, the "start" of the start bit is sampled when it occurs and
the "end" of the start bit occurs right after the pin is sampled.  Now
we are setting TMR0 off by 2...with averaging this should not be a
problem...

Similiar analysis of the data bit polling is left as an exercise to the
reader :-)

Hope I haven't missed anything...Enjoy,

Ralph

Geeze, where's my samples...I can't wait to try this....Maybe I'll just
call Digi-key and get some in, of course, then I'll have to get my hands
dirty and enter the real world.  It's so comfy here in the simulator
world...


J Nagy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'logig probe(chornby@lpdl.co.uk)'
1999\02\18@141615 by Eduardo R.

flavicon
face
Hi,
Check professor Peter Anderson link ,he has many Pic applications for the
beginner and a logic probe based on a Pic also. You can get the Probe for
about 5 dollars (kit) or free with any order.

At 02:33 PM 2/18/99 GMT, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

always tommorow.
>
>
Best wishes
                Eduardo R

AC Power Control project based on PIC
http://www.geocities.com/SouthBeach/Cove/4535
ICQ# 10909825
TakeThisOuTeriveraspamspam_OUTumemphis.campus.mci.net

        CHILDHOOD CANCER
"Anyone whose family hasn't been touched by it
should get down on his knees every night and
thank the MAN upstairs"...........SAM COOPER


'Customer Service @ CCS (was re: Bad Disk)'
1999\03\04@142003 by Jim Dolson
picon face
Dear Fellow PIC-Listers

A word of caution to anyone else on the list that uses the CCS compiler - make
sure you have a good copy of your orginal disk.  I thought that spending $99 on
a compiler was going to save me money.  Now, just to replace a corrupted disk,
I'm going to end up spending:

Original purchase: $99
Original One year maintenance: $99
Another year maintenance: $99  <- required to 'fix' my corrupted original disk
problem.

I wasn't asking for the LATEST version, just the version that I lost on my
corrupted disk.

Since I apparently need to spend some money, maybe now would be a good time to
re-evaluate compiler.  What 'professional' C compilers are out there?  Feel free
to respond directly to RemoveMEjdolsonspamspamSTOPspamiserv.net as as to not clutter up the list with
something that has probably been hashed around before.

Thanks,

Jim
.....jdolsonEraseMEspamiserv.net

"CCS Inc." wrote:

> Your reference numbers and updates have run out.  We cannot send a new disk.
> YOu can purchase the 12 months of updates for $99.00.
> Thank you
> {Original Message removed}

1999\03\04@200127 by ryan pogge

flavicon
face
F*$# them then.... just get a copy off someone on the list.
thats ridiculous that a company would do that to you, so I
say screw them
and dont buy it.... just ask someone for it.

I don't have it but if i did I would give it to you, and i
know for a fact that there are
MANY people on the list who would be willing to give it to
you.

now I know this is going to cause flames...whatever, don't
bother cause I dont care.

Im not a big fan of "WAREZ",  and i am happy to pay for a
product i like... but if they
try to take my money... I say screw em.



>Dear Fellow PIC-Listers
>
>A word of caution to anyone else on the list that uses the
CCS compiler - make
>sure you have a good copy of your orginal disk.  I thought
that spending $99 on
>a compiler was going to save me money.  Now, just to
replace a corrupted disk,
>I'm going to end up spending:
>
>Original purchase: $99
>Original One year maintenance: $99
>Another year maintenance: $99  <- required to 'fix' my
corrupted original disk
>problem.
>
>I wasn't asking for the LATEST version, just the version
that I lost on my
>corrupted disk.
>
>Since I apparently need to spend some money, maybe now
would be a good time to
>re-evaluate compiler.  What 'professional' C compilers are
out there?  Feel free
>to respond directly to spamBeGonejdolsonspamRemoveMEiserv.net as as to not
clutter up the list with
>something that has probably been hashed around before.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jim
>.....jdolsonEraseMEspamiserv.net
>
>"CCS Inc." wrote:
>
>> Your reference numbers and updates have run out.  We
cannot send a new disk.
>> YOu can purchase the 12 months of updates for $99.00.
>> Thank you
>> {Original Message removed}

1999\03\04@220201 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>Original purchase: $99
>Original One year maintenance: $99
>Another year maintenance: $99  <- required to 'fix' my corrupted original disk
>problem.

You've got a good head start on a HiTech compiler.  I'd vote for that one,
but it's the one I have the most experience with.  I got it after being
frustrated to death by CCS "version du jour" policy and bug generation
services.

To say I've been happy is very conservative.

To be fair, the latest MPC is supposed to be just as good.  There are
adherents to that denomination here as well.

You get what you pay for most of the time.  I'm happy.

Andy

1999\03\04@235323 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Jim Dolson wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Maybe it should be posted on the list after all. There are only
two compilers for PICs that warrant consideration, MPC and Hitech.

I have never used Hitech, so I can't speak ill or good of it.
I have used MPC for over a year (probably two years), and have
never (ever) had problems with support. Walter is on the PIClist
(Hi Walter!), and will help you with finger troubles.

It supports *ALL* the PICs, and you can get header files for new
PICs as they come out. There has been minimal bugfixes over this
period, because there ain't any. I can't believe people are suckered
into buying CCS, and then forking out more money to pay for their
(reportedly) frequent bugfixes.

You can use all the C examples on Mchips site virtually as-is
with MPC.

To be fair, Clyde is also on the PIClist, and he has also given
excellent support for Hitech.

If anyone is in the market for a compiler, here's a tip :
               *You get what you pay for*

> "CCS Inc." wrote:
>
> > Your reference numbers and updates have run out.  We cannot send a new disk.
> > YOu can purchase the 12 months of updates for $99.00.

This should be re-phrased :
You haven't paid bugfix money for over a year. All our
bugs are going to get you now. You're screwed! Hahahaha!

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1999\03\05@091400 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>>> >replaced?  I'm not asking for the lastest version of the
>compiler, just
>>> >what I had before my disk crash.

You know another thought crossed my mind just now.

They probably DON'T HAVE a copy of what you had.  Version du Jour mentality
often skips important things like Configuration Management that _real_
companies understand the importance of.

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\05@093933 by wwl

picon face
On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:54:49 -0500, you wrote:

>F*$# them then.... just get a copy off someone on the list.
>thats ridiculous that a company would do that to you, so I
>say screw them
>and dont buy it.... just ask someone for it.
>
>I don't have it but if i did I would give it to you, and i
>know for a fact that there are
> MANY people on the list who would be willing to give it to
>you.
>
>now I know this is going to cause flames...whatever, don't
>bother cause I dont care.
>
>Im not a big fan of "WAREZ",  and i am happy to pay for a
>product i like... but if they
>try to take my money... I say screw em.
Absolutely! Any company that treats customers like this deserves to
have their stuff ripped-off.

1999\03\05@101244 by les LaForge

flavicon
face
Guys

I for one  (and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one) am very satisfied
with the CCS product.  CCS gave me a break whenI was in college and
offered alot of help and advice.

Not too many people take the time to do that now a days.  If we were to
pass a vote I'm quite sure it would favor CCS.  Please, if you are
shopping for a C compiler, do not let the opinions of a few angry
customers blind you.

Charles

1999\03\05@105157 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
So far I'd agree about CCS.  I've had several SHOWSTOPPING bugs, not the
least of which thier compiler will only allow you to use 24 RAM locations on
a part with 72 RAM locations.  I create a program that theoretically should
run fine on my part, and I get OUT OF RAM errors because their compiler
won't allow it.  I've waited two days now for an answer, and I know the
answer will be:

SEND US $99


well... it was cheap.....





{Original Message removed}

1999\03\05@133330 by Jim Dolson

picon face
Charles,

If you check the archives, I was a very vocal supporter of CCS for the
first six months that I used it.  It's a good compiler at a reasonable
price.  I am an "angry customer" because after having my HD disk crash on
me (my code was backed up, but not the compiler), I find that my ORIGINAL
diskette is corrupted.  All I want is what I bought and paid an extra years
support for.  I'm not asking for the CURRENT version, just what I've
already spent $198 on.  Is it that unreasonable?

I *LIKE* the compiler.  I'd like it more if I could reinstall and use it.

Jim

Charles LaForge wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\03\06@045117 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Charles LaForge wrote:
>
> Guys
>
> I for one  (and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one) am very satisfied
> with the CCS product.  CCS gave me a break whenI was in college and
> offered alot of help and advice.
>
> Not too many people take the time to do that now a days.  If we were to
> pass a vote I'm quite sure it would favor CCS.  Please, if you are
> shopping for a C compiler, do not let the opinions of a few angry
> customers blind you.
>
> Charles

Well, I haven't hear *one* complaint on MPC or Hitech - only cudos.


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1999\03\06@051229 by Bert Koerts

flavicon
face
At 12:01 6-3-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Charles LaForge wrote:
>>
>> Guys
>>
>> I for one  (and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one) am very satisfied
>> with the CCS product.  CCS gave me a break whenI was in college and
>> offered alot of help and advice.
>>
>> Not too many people take the time to do that now a days.  If we were to
>> pass a vote I'm quite sure it would favor CCS.  Please, if you are
>> shopping for a C compiler, do not let the opinions of a few angry
>> customers blind you.
>>
>> Charles
>
>Well, I haven't hear *one* complaint on MPC or Hitech - only cudos.
>

Maybe because the low price is attractive to new users who are having a lot
of problems because they are not familiar with C. All my problems turned
out to be like this so far. I am not familiar with the other compilers, but
I do like the CCS compiler a lot. No problems at all.

Regards

Bert Koerts

1999\03\08@155542 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
After calm reflection and a weekend of dancing I realize two things:

1. CCS has a different BUSINESS MODEL than many other software companies.
OLD software thinking was to charge a lot upfront.  Many new (and GNU)
companies charge low (or no) money up front and then an ongoing charge for
serviceing software.  (Some charge astronomical fees for both.)  This
business model avoids the boom and bust tendency of software companies, and
avoids the sticker shock seen with more expensive packages.  Bear in mind,
that CCS compilers will not cost less than HITECH or BYTECRAFT in the long
run, just in the short run.

2. The supposed bug I raved about below was really a feature (aargh! And
World War II was a Police Action.. )    They have a workaround,  And they
did respond, although in a very terse manner.

OK these guys are NOT so bad..






{Original Message removed}

1999\03\08@183959 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 14:52 03/08/99 -0600, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>an ongoing charge for serviceing software.

if that means "charge for bugfixes" this is ok with me if it is about GNU
or some other public license software, but not for a proprietary program i
bought (and don't even get the sources).

if somebody sells something, my POV is still that it should work as
advertised. and i've never seen a software manufacturer (including CCS)
advertise that their products may or not do what they claim... ie.
advertise that they sell it, like cheap used car dealers, "as is." and if
it doesn't do what they claim, i think it's their responsibility to make it
work, free of charge. we'll get there :)

ge

1999\03\08@202436 by Ian Cull

picon face
>  From:        spam_OUTlists@spam@spamHOME.COM (Gerhard Fiedler)
>  if that means "charge for bugfixes" this is ok with me if it is about GNU
>  or some other public license software, but not for a proprietary program i
>  bought (and don't even get the sources).
>
>  if somebody sells something, my POV is still that it should work as
>  advertised. and i've never seen a software manufacturer (including CCS)
>  advertise that their products may or not do what they claim... ie.
>  advertise that they sell it, like cheap used car dealers, "as is." and if
>  it doesn't do what they claim, i think it's their responsibility to make it
>  work, free of charge. we'll get there :)
>
>  ge
>
Gerhard,
Do you ever pay any money for maintenance on your car? Or does your initial
purchase include all necessary future charges to keep it in operational order
and up to date?

Ian C.

1999\03\08@210043 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Mon, Mar 08, 1999 at 08:22:21PM -0500, Ian Cull wrote:
> >  From:        TakeThisOuTlistsspam_OUTspamHOME.COM (Gerhard Fiedler)
> >  if that means "charge for bugfixes" this is ok with me if it is about GNU
> >  or some other public license software, but not for a proprietary program i
> >  bought (and don't even get the sources).
> >
> >  if somebody sells something, my POV is still that it should work as
> >  advertised. and i've never seen a software manufacturer (including CCS)
> >  advertise that their products may or not do what they claim... ie.
> >  advertise that they sell it, like cheap used car dealers, "as is." and if
> >  it doesn't do what they claim, i think it's their responsibility to make it
> >  work, free of charge. we'll get there :)

You might as well expect a lottery ticket to come
with a guarantee that you'll win the grand prize.
most shrink-wrap software licenses specifically state
that the software is not warranted to be suitable for
any purpose in particular; you are in essence licensing
a random collection of bits that, if you are lucky,
may actually do something. Those licenses are often
particularly vile examples of the "buyer has no rights --
seller has no responsibilities" genre of legal document.
There has been much discussion in the US about the need
to change the legality of this sort of license, but it
may be some time before it gets anywhere.

--Bob
(who still hasn't changed his PICLIST subscription)

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
KILLspambob.....spamTakeThisOuTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\03\08@223959 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 20:22 03/08/99 -0500, Ian Cull wrote:
>Do you ever pay any money for maintenance on your car? Or does your initial
>purchase include all necessary future charges to keep it in operational order
>and up to date?

we're not talking here about "keeping up to date," we're talking about
bugs, which commonly means that the program does not do what it should, not
that it is outdated. if i buy an ANSI-compliant compiler and the ANSI spec
changes, i of course don't expect them to provide me with a compiler
compliant to the new standard. but if i buy an allegedly ANSI-compliant
compiler and i find that it isn't -- what would you call that?

back to the car: i don't pay when there's something that doesn't work as
advertised in a new car. with most "material" items this is pretty clearly
covered in the warranty (if i'm not mistaken, there is even a law that
requires a minimum warranty). most (if not all) decent software
manufacturer also provide bug fixes for free. how can you call bug fixes
"maintenance"? when you buy a new car and the left rear shock is bad --
which doesn't mean the car won't run, it just reacts a little bit unusual
in some rare situations, and you can easily "work around" this "feature" by
driving slow --, would you accept this as having to be covered by an extra
"maintenance agreement"? i guess not; you probably would expect this as to
be covered by the product warranty and fixed for free.

similarily, if i have a compiler and it creates obviously wrong code -- i'm
not talking about sub-optimal code here or changed standards, i'm talking
about code that's not in accordance to the compiler specifications (as
provided by the manufacturer) and advertised claims, eg. a table read
algorithm that jumps into nowhere --, why should i pay for them to fix
that? after all, i bought the compiler based on what they say it does. if
it doesn't do it, they shouldn't claim it. or is that covered by "freedom
of speech"?

to call "bug fixing" "maintenance" is a marketing trick, and as one can
see, it does work with some. but this doesn't make it real. as i said, if i
use, say, a GNU compiler and hire a guy to fix bugs when they come up in
order not to have to rely on the user community to fix them, =that's=
maintenance, and that's ok to pay for. or if i customize a complex
accounting program and hire somebody (may be from the manufacturer) to
"maintain" my system, which in this case mostly means maintain my
customization and keeping it up to date with ever-changing fiscal
legislation, that's maintenance, too. but when i buy a product, software or
hardware or any ware, i expect it to work as advertised and/or specified,
and making it work so is =not= maintenance, that's bug fixing.

ge

1999\03\08@224819 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 20:59 03/08/99 -0500, Bob Drzyzgula wrote:
>You might as well expect a lottery ticket to come
>with a guarantee that you'll win the grand prize.

which tells something about the quality claims they put in their ads :)

>Those licenses are often
>particularly vile examples of the "buyer has no rights --
>seller has no responsibilities" genre of legal document.

i know that. which doesn't mean i have to like it. i think that it's mostly
a matter of a solid majority getting used to expect that it actually works
as advertised, which will then lead both legislation and interpretation of
current law in this direction. (this was the same way with "normal"
products.) that's why i rant about it every now and then :)

ge

1999\03\08@234024 by Andy

flavicon
picon face
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerhard Fiedler <TakeThisOuTlistsEraseMEspamRemoveMEHOME.COM>
To: spam_OUTPICLISTRemoveMEspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamPICLISTKILLspamspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: 09 March 1999 03:39
Subject: Re: Customer Service @ CCS (was re: Bad Disk)


>At 20:22 03/08/99 -0500, Ian Cull wrote:
>>Do you ever pay any money for maintenance on your car? Or does your
initial
>>purchase include all necessary future charges to keep it in operational
order
{Quote hidden}

Software companies use us to test the software, first release (v1.00) full
of bugs, second release (v1.01) all fixed, but oh dear its v1.01 so we have
to buy it again as its a new version!
They send it out faulty as they cannot find all bugs as they cannot create
all possible working conditions, if they did it would be out of date b4 it
was released (I don't agree with this mind!)
Andy.

1999\03\09@002044 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Andy wrote:
> Software companies use us to test the software, first release (v1.00) full
> of bugs, second release (v1.01) all fixed, but oh dear its v1.01 so we have
> to buy it again as its a new version!
> They send it out faulty as they cannot find all bugs as they cannot create
> all possible working conditions, if they did it would be out of date b4 it
> was released (I don't agree with this mind!)
> Andy.

Unfortunately we are at disposition of the market, it means, software
producers use that argument. "If you don't like the way we work, just go
and search for another supplier".  This is bad and show no respect at
all
to the customer. Want a better example?  Windows95!  It was full of bugs
that "was fixed" at the Windows98, but it was not for free for who
already
paid for the '95, as a "corrected code". So we say, "what a hell, it is
just $90 for the '98 and it comes with more features", and we paid for a
new version, that still carrying more bugs and so on.  Some companies
just offer a "discount" for who already has the previous version, just
as
a way to compensate.  Instead to apply efforts to fix bugs in a software
that is already old and will not generate any more money for the
company,
they just "think" that the customers will accept to live with problems.
They try to solve a list of problems, paint with a new color, apply new
features (with more bugs) and sell again with a new version. If you want
to have the old bugs fixed, need to buy the new version.

I don't agree with software maintenance fee, this is a trick. If the fee
is to keep your software updated with new features and to "try to locate
problems" that you don't want to do it by yourself, that's ok, I saw it
widely at IBM when I was working there, but to send corrections to
bugs???
I don't expect Microsoft to fix problems to Windows3.1 anymore, but for
Windows95 still their responsibility to fix =all= the bugs without
making me feel the necessity to migrate to Windows98.  Doesn't matter
the "fine print" at the agreement, it is their moral responsibility to
make it works nice and smooth, without any "favor" from them.

Using the same comparison to the car business, imagine if you have the
same engine problems 3 or 4 times a week, and the supplier say that you
need to upgrade to the new version (year) that has the problem fixed.
Here in Florida there is a law named "Lemon Car", if it goes to repair
3 times for the same problem and the factory representative can not fix
it, it turns to be a "Lemon Car", and the factory =must= exchange for
a new car. (under the warranty period of course).

I think that specifically in this software case, it cost the same to
send an email to the technical support, company's chair main, or even
a magazine as Byte, Computer Shopper or something like that, or even
to all of above. If you paid for something you not received... it is
your right to have it, or your money back, no discussion, simple.

That's my 3 cents.
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\09@004652 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>

> I think that specifically in this software case, it cost the same to
> send an email to the technical support, company's chair main, or even
> a magazine as Byte, Computer Shopper or something like that, or even
> to all of above. If you paid for something you not received... it is
> your right to have it, or your money back, no discussion, simple.
>
> That's my 3 cents.

I think that there are 1700 potential customers who will
now think twice about CCS. 'nuff said.

--
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1999\03\09@013320 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   They send it out faulty as they cannot find all bugs as they cannot create
   all possible working conditions, if they did it would be out of date b4 it
   was released (I don't agree with this mind!)

If you disagree, you're welcome to release a competing product with zero
bugs.  If you're right, it should sell like gangbusters, even without a
competitive set of features, right?  Actually, I keep telling people that
some features are bugs if they're missing.  If a customer would rather have
nested macros (a feature) with a bug preventing a macro from terminating in
the middle of a line (allowing foo: db mymacro(a,b,c), x, y), then who's to
say which is a bug and which is a feature?

(of course, what we find in real life is that customers want "the stable
version" with "just the new features *I* want", apparently not associating
the addition of features with the addition of bugs...  Bah...)

If you think you know how to test software, I suspect we have a job opening
you could fill...

BillW

1999\03\09@024039 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 04:32 03/09/99 +0000, Andy wrote:
>Software companies use us to test the software, first release (v1.00) full
>of bugs, second release (v1.01) all fixed,

where do you buy your software ("=all= fixed")? :)

>but oh dear its v1.01 so we have to buy it again as its a new version!

if they really fix 'em =all=, i'd probably even buy the 1.01 =gladly=!

ge

1999\03\09@084213 by wwl

picon face
On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:22:21 EST, you wrote:

>>  From:        spam_OUTlistsspamspamBeGoneHOME.COM (Gerhard Fiedler)
>>  if that means "charge for bugfixes" this is ok with me if it is about GNU
>>  or some other public license software, but not for a proprietary program i
>>  bought (and don't even get the sources).
>>
>>  if somebody sells something, my POV is still that it should work as
>>  advertised. and i've never seen a software manufacturer (including CCS)
>>  advertise that their products may or not do what they claim... ie.
>>  advertise that they sell it, like cheap used car dealers, "as is." and if
>>  it doesn't do what they claim, i think it's their responsibility to make it
>>  work, free of charge. we'll get there :)
>>
>>  ge
>>
>Gerhard,
>Do you ever pay any money for maintenance on your car? Or does your initial
>purchase include all necessary future charges to keep it in operational order
>and up to date?
>
>Ian C.
Totally spurious argument - cars are designed with inherent wear-out
mechanisms, software with bugs had them from day one.

1999\03\09@090542 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>to the customer. Want a better example?  Windows95!  It was full of bugs
>that "was fixed" at the Windows98, but it was not for free for who
>already

No, OSR2 was the bug fix set (and you could download most of the changes
off the site for free, btw).  Win98 was an ENTIRELY NEW set of bugs, albeit
very much based on the old set.

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\09@095324 by Andy

flavicon
picon face
>    They send it out faulty as they cannot find all bugs as they cannot
create
>    all possible working conditions, if they did it would be out of date b4
it
{Quote hidden}

Bet you don't agree with having to die one day but thats just the way it is
I was just stating the facts!! keep your hair on!! and when i finish uni
i'll hold you to the job offer!! ta!
Also keeping this subject going will only damage your sales so why not give
the guy a new copy (i'll send you some blank disks if your too tight) and
keep the peace? and if you were in customer relations in any company of mine
you'd be sacked!! for the price of a couple of disks you could have had
someone come on here praising you and who knows how many new customers that
would have brought, tight as a gnats chuff eh??.
yours' all wound up,
                              Andy.

Is this [OT] now???

'Out of memory (was: Customer Service @ CCS (was re'
1999\03\09@112242 by Carlos V. Gutierrez F.

flavicon
face
>The supposed bug I raved about below was really a feature (aargh! And
>World War II was a Police Action.. )    They have a workaround,

>>least of which thier compiler will only allow you to use 24 RAM locations
>on a part with 72 RAM locations.  I create a program that theoretically
should


Could you please explain a little this feature and its workaround?
Is it about arrays or about having too many global variables?

....for us who are trying to decide what C compiler to buy.

Thanks

Carlos V. Gutierrez Fragosa - Hermosillo, Mexico
EraseMEcarlosgspamKILLspamsca.com.mx  http://www.sca.com.mx

1999\03\09@115711 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>....for us who are trying to decide what C compiler to buy.

Get the HiTech one.

Andy


  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

'Customer Service @ CCS (was re: Bad Disk)'
1999\03\09@115915 by Eric Oliver

flavicon
face
Gerhard,

I've been reading this discussion and I can't keep my mouth shut any longer
<g>.  I have long had that POV. I think we are headed for the day that
software companies will have specific legislation enforced on them because
of the lax manner in which many do business.  However, when that day comes,
the cost of software will likely sky-rocket and the legislation could
potentially stifle innovation on the part of small organizations ( read
individuals with a good idea and limited resources ).

I was a loyal Borland fan back when Borland released Quattro Pro and Turbo
C.  Over the years, MS put the squeeze on them and they began struggling ..
looking for a niche.  With each new version release of their C++ compiler,
they would leave the previous version in an incomplete state.  Right now I
am using BC++ 5.02. A product that they no longer support but stills has
glaring bugs and annoyances.  Oh, you want a product that works ? .. You
need to upgrade to Borland C++ Builder which is our replacement product for
BC++.  The only problem is that BCB is not the same product .. I own it and
I don't like it for what I do.  In moments of complete frustration, I have
wondered if a class action law suit would fix the problem ( I'm not a big
fan of law suits, that seems to be America's solution to everything ).  Oh
yeah, Borland was still advertising and selling their C++ product for OS/2
even after they had ceased development and it was _full_ of bugs that,
according to users on the forum, rendered it useless for serious
development.

On the other hand, a company that I was recently looking at buying a print
engine from sells their product for a _very_ high price.  So high, it about
knocked me flat when he first told me the price.  For a package I figured
should sell for between $300 - $750, sells for between $1000 on the low end
to almost $2000 for the professional version.  When I queried him about why
the price is so high, one of the reasons he stated was that they have spent
significant resources to ensure a solid and robust product .. translation
less bugs means more money.  However, that price, at least temporarily,
prevented me from purchasing the product.

At this point, I'm not sure what the answer is.  As with everything, life
has its trade-offs and I'm sure that if we bring regulation into the
picture, we will pay the price.

Eric

{Original Message removed}

1999\03\09@134758 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Eric Oliver wrote:
[snip]
> ....I think we are headed for the day that
> software companies will have specific legislation enforced on them because
> of the lax manner in which many do business.  However, when that day comes,
> the cost of software will likely sky-rocket and the legislation could
> potentially stifle innovation on the part of small organizations ( read
> individuals with a good idea and limited resources ).

I don't think so, they are actually doing bunches of money already.
How much cost to develop a regular CAD software? $100,000 ? $200,000 ?
Suppose the Eagle CAD one... $300,000 is a good cost, isn't?
Do you really believe that they sold only 6 thousand registered copies
to pay the development cost (at $50 each one)?

What about the ones sold by $3 thousand, like Protel? Do you think they
never sold one thousand copies? It would pay a production cost of
3 Million!!! 10% in profit in United States is a good profit.  Ok, Ok,
they have other kind of expenses and things, but, to add two or three
more software engineers to keep debuging previous versions, doesn't
cost too much, and those guys can fix one or two bugs per day, so, in
sixty days they can almost clean all the reported problems.

Now tell me, why Microsoft put available at low cost all their software
list to be installed in the fresh new computers at the plant, entitled
as
"pre-installed software"?  They almost sell it by the documentation
cost.
Answer: Every cent is accounted. We can call it "the drag-along
process".
They consider several market areas, and one is the low profit but that
ensures market share, so nobody else will take those customers.

As in the car segment, they were pressed to include anti-lock-brakes,
air-bags, fuel-injection, computerized-systems, air-conditioned, and
much more, and the prices still going down, =not up=.

Even in high-price cartelized markets there is a competition between
parts, and one of the best attractive item it was, is and always will
be; =low cost=.  So, a regular compiler will not take off if offered
at $5,000. It will be *DOA* (dead on arrival).  There is a common way
to establish a market price, "how much the market would pay for it?".

--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\09@141905 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   Bet you don't agree with having to die one day but thats just the way
   it is I was just stating the facts!! keep your hair on!! and when i
   finish uni i'll hold you to the job offer!! ta!

Heh.  I should have made it clearer that we release 3000+ images across 50+
platforms (various combinations of features and several major "releases" at
a time.)  Every month or so.  :-)  Looks like about 50gig of binaries (some
of which are self compressed.)  (This is all conservative estimates, I think.)


   Also keeping this subject going will only damage your sales so why not
   give the guy a new copy (i'll send you some blank disks if your too
   tight) and keep the peace?

I am NOT the company mentioned in the original complaint.

I also should have mentioned that I don't have much sympathy for companies
that won't help a customer with a bug unless they have paid their fees or
will upgrade releases.  Customers capable of finding and recognizing bugs
are your friends.  Customers capable of analyzing bugs ought to be your GOOD
friends.  AFAIK, I have free reign to give customers fixed software images
at any time, with the understanding that that might mean they now have a
version that is not (can not be!) supported through the normal support
channels.  (none of the analysis or bug tracking tools will have a good idea
of what is in or not in a "special" bug-fixed image that I provided.  It's a
little embarassing when the next bug they run into shows up a year later and
they're still running the "engineering special" that was provided to fix
their last fix!)


   and if you were in customer relations in any company of mine you'd be
   sacked!!

For refusing to provide a fix?  Yeah, that wouldn't be that wise.  But the
example that started this all was someone trying to get an OLD version of
the software (not due to a bug), and as someone else pointed out, smaller
companies are not particularly likely to have the infrastructure in place
to provide an old version of software.


   for the price of a couple of disks you could have had someone come on
   here praising you and who knows how many new customers that would have
   brought, tight as a gnats chuff eh??.

Paradoxically, customers are much more impressed by fast turnaround on
bugfix requests than they are by bug-free software.  I shipped a feature
once that flat-out didn't work under some circumstance that I SHOULD have
forseen (ie I was really embarrassed!)  When the customer complained, we
turned around a fix nearly instantly, and they thought that was great!
They were probably happier than if it had worked right in the first place.

BillW
cisco

1999\03\09@141908 by Wolfgang Strobl

flavicon
face
On 5 Mar 99, 7:34  Charles LaForge wrote:

> I for one  (and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one) am very satisfied
> with the CCS product.  CCS gave me a break whenI was in college and
> offered alot of help and advice.

I second that.  I started (high level language) PIC programming with
Melabs PicBasic compiler, in a little project done for my employer.
But after comparing Melabs upgrade policy with CCSs, I decided to
go with CCS and to buy CCS C, for my personal toolset, and so far
I am quite satisfied with my decision. Both products (Melabs
Picbasic, Stamp I compatible, and CCS 14bit core compiler) have
similar price and feature sets (CCS C is faster, PicBasic has better
ASM integration).  But Melabs upgrade policy _really_ stinks,
when looked at from a German customers point of view. While
customers located in the US may get upgrades almost for free ($10
plus inexpensive local shipment), customers from overseas pay a
fortune for each and every upgrade/bugfix. CCS, on the other hand,
offers free upgrades to current versions via the internet for 30 days
after the buy, and sell continous access to actual versions for a
year, for another $99.

--
     o      (     EraseMEWolfgang.StroblRemoveMEspamgmd.de (+49 2241) 14-2394
    /\        *   GMD mbH                       #include
  _`\ `_<===      Schloss Birlinghoven,         <std.disclaimer>
__(_)/_(_)___.-._  53754 Sankt Augustin, Germany ________________

'Out of memory (was: Customer Service @ CCS (was re'
1999\03\09@151236 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
>
>Could you please explain a little this feature and its workaround?
>Is it about arrays or about having too many global variables?
>
>....for us who are trying to decide what C compiler to buy.
>
>Thanks
>
>Carlos V. Gutierrez Fragosa - Hermosillo, Mexico
>.....carlosgspamspam_OUTsca.com.mx  http://www.sca.com.mx


Here goes, Carlos:

The 16C505, for instance, has 72 RAM locations.  The CCS compiler, without
any workarounds, only recognizes 24 RAM locations because of a limitiation
they use in the number of bits of address space for this RAM.  So if you
declare more than 24 bytes of RAM, you get an "OUT OF RAM" error.

The workaround is like this:

#BYTE    x    0x30                // declares an integer variable X at the
first RAM location in bank #2 of RAM

or

LONG Y;
#BYTE  y = 0x31           // declares a long integer Y at the second and
third ram location in BANK #2 of RAM.

For ram in Bank 0, the compiler keeps track of whether you have used a
variable, whether it is a temporary variable that can be used by another
funciton, or whther it is a global variable, etc.

For Ram in Bank 1+  YOU must keep track of this information, the compiler
will happily walk on your variables if you tell it to.  Just like the old
days with assembler.


Likewise, the RETLW instruciton does not work in the CCS compiler for table
lookups.  THe workaround is to use the more standard C syntax:

BYTE CONST TABLE [16] = { 0,2,1,3,4,5,4,5,3,6,7,3,4,5,4,3}

x = table[5];   // looks up constant data number 5

This code generates the RETLW instruction in the assembled version, and
RETLW works fine if the compiler generates it, just not if YOU type it.


Other than these problems I've been able to work pretty smoothly with CCS.


So far, I am voting for sticking with the CCS compiler.  Last week I was
really hacked off at it, and would have chucked it out the window.  I do
this with my cars, scopes, meters, computers, etc.etc. on a regular basis.
(get mad, I mean, not chuck them out the window.)

So far I'd say the CCS compiler is worth the money, thier tech support is
adequate but not excellent, thier compiler works adequately but not
excellently, and you get what you pay for.  Realizing I paid  the minimum
price for this software, it is meeting my minimum expectations.  If you
can't afford a better package, it will meet your needs.
If I can ever scrape up $600 or $700 I'll try out the other guys.

'Customer Service @ CCS (was re: Bad Disk)'
1999\03\09@182524 by Andy

flavicon
picon face
-----Original Message-----
From: William Chops Westfield <@spam@billwEraseMEspamspamCISCO.COM>
To: PICLISTTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: 09 March 1999 19:19
Subject: Re: Customer Service @ CCS (was re: Bad Disk)


>    Bet you don't agree with having to die one day but thats just the way
>    it is I was just stating the facts!! keep your hair on!! and when i
>    finish uni i'll hold you to the job offer!! ta!
>
>Heh.  I should have made it clearer that we release 3000+ images across 50+
>platforms (various combinations of features and several major "releases" at
>a time.)  Every month or so.  :-)  Looks like about 50gig of binaries (some
>of which are self compressed.)  (This is all conservative estimates, I
think.)
{Quote hidden}

GOOD
>friends.  AFAIK, I have free reign to give customers fixed software images
>at any time, with the understanding that that might mean they now have a
>version that is not (can not be!) supported through the normal support
>channels.  (none of the analysis or bug tracking tools will have a good
idea
>of what is in or not in a "special" bug-fixed image that I provided.  It's
a
>little embarassing when the next bug they run into shows up a year later
and
{Quote hidden}

Sorry, what I meant was it's bad to come on here and then not sort things
out while the whole pic list looked on (the company was on here weren't
they?), I'm sure you agree that now and again a little loss (the price of a
few disks after all) makes a profit in the long run, you only give a copy to
the guy who is visible to the masses and the guy who stays quiet gets nowt!
The effect of television is similar, when wingers weekly is on the TV you
promise to sort things out but when the cameras have gone you stall till its
old news, then do nothing!! Please note that these are observations of real
life incidents NOT related to me! And TV Presenters do blow things out of
all proportion and it gives old people something to do and watch!

I also apologise for mistaking you for the vendor!! Im sure you run things
differently.

Yours' all calmed down now,
                                              Andy. (-:

1999\03\09@191030 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Wagner,

At 01:45 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>As in the car segment, they were pressed to include anti-lock-brakes,
>air-bags, fuel-injection, computerized-systems, air-conditioned, and
>much more, and the prices still going down, =not up=.

What? Car prices consistently go UP,on an absolute scale,anyway. I haven't
taken into account inflation,but my guess it that they would still have
increased slightly. For example, my family bought a new nissan sentra in
1988 (the 88 model) for about $8000. The 97 model went for about $12,000.

Perhaps I once again misread your post,but it sure seemed that you were
saying that US car prices go down consistently.

Sean




|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
@spam@shb7STOPspamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\09@195500 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Sean Breheny wrote:
> What? Car prices consistently go UP,on an absolute scale,anyway. I haven't
> taken into account inflation,but my guess it that they would still have
> increased slightly. For example, my family bought a new nissan sentra in
> 1988 (the 88 model) for about $8000. The 97 model went for about $12,000.
> Perhaps I once again misread your post,but it sure seemed that you were
> saying that US car prices go down consistently.

Yes, I was talking about price/performance/technology and prices
at USA, that coincidentally an annual inflation of 4%, $8000 in 1988
means $11,384 in 1997.  The actual marketing and advertisement cost
is much more aggressive today than 10 years ago, and if they kept the
price somehow stable, it means that the production cost was reduced.
If you open the hood of an actual car, you almost can't see the
engine anymore, zillions of cables, tubes, electronics, servos,
there is an incalculable cost attached here. If you compare with
the simple carburetor, coil and distributor used 10 years ago, we
did a long progress without increased the price at the same rate.
Technically it means a reduction in the price/(performance+confort).
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:   http:/http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\10@082739 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>If you open the hood of an actual car, you almost can't see the
>engine anymore, zillions of cables, tubes, electronics, servos,
>there is an incalculable cost attached here. If you compare with
>the simple carburetor, coil and distributor used 10 years ago, we
>did a long progress without increased the price at the same rate.
>Technically it means a reduction in the price/(performance+confort).

Unfortunately, nobody can really work on their own car any more.

I still drive a 1981 VW Rabbit, have close to 300,000 miles on it, and it
looks like I'm not halfway through the service life yet.  And I can fix
everything myself.  I only gave up my 1976 Honda Civic when the body had
more holes than steel and wouldn't pass inspection for safety reasons.
(Actually, it looked like a typical NYC vehicle <G>).

Unfortunately, New Jersey thinks that "old is bad" even though I get better
mileage than most vehicles on the road.

Andy
  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\10@123235 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 3/10/99 5:27:36 AM Pacific Standard Time, TakeThisOuTmtdesignTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEFAST.NET
writes:

<<
Unfortunately, New Jersey thinks that "old is bad" even though I get better
mileage than most vehicles on the road.

Andy >>
Hi Andy,
At least your state didn't pass a law stating that a certain number of cars
sold after a certain date WILL be electric!  How the hell do you enforce that?
"I'm sorry ma'am you are the 8th customer we've had today so you'll have to by
an electric moped....Its the law!" <G>

Dave Duley

1999\03\11@102500 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
At 08:11 AM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>If you open the hood of an actual car, you almost can't see the
>>engine anymore, zillions of cables, tubes, electronics, servos,
>>there is an incalculable cost attached here. If you compare with
>>the simple carburetor, coil and distributor used 10 years ago, we
>>did a long progress without increased the price at the same rate.
>>Technically it means a reduction in the price/(performance+confort).
>
>Unfortunately, nobody can really work on their own car any more.
>

 And isn't it ironic that we and our industry are the source of
 many of the anonymous little modules that make this so
 difficult?

 Reg Neale

1999\03\11@120201 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>>Unfortunately, nobody can really work on their own car any more.
>>
>
>  And isn't it ironic that we and our industry are the source of
>  many of the anonymous little modules that make this so
>  difficult?

Which exactly why the only computers in my Rabbit are the FI and may laptop.

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\11@155034 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 10:21 03/11/99 -0500, Reginald Neale wrote:
>  And isn't it ironic that we and our industry are the source of
>  many of the anonymous little modules that make this so
>  difficult?

maybe, maybe not. i tend to think that it's more often than not not the
mere fact that micros are used, but much more so the fact that what they do
is almost never published. you don't need that with a coolant pump to
figure out how it works, but you'd need it with a small black box.

ge

1999\03\11@180043 by rweaver8

flavicon
face
I am a newbie and have been monitoring this list for about a week now.
I am interested in building a small project using a pic 16F84.I have
never done any programming but hav significant electronic experiance and
began working with special purpose computers in the late sixties.
       I am now retired and raise parrots as a hobby. My project is an egg
incubator. I like to make things for my self. Then when they dont work I
can fix them for my self. I also do all of my own mechanical work. I
have had many old time mechanics tell me that I cant work on my own car
as its not possible with out all kinds of special test equipment. Well
the most complicated piece of test equipment I use is a VOM. I could
tell you how to fix your car but I dont yet know enough about the pic
microcontrollers to build my incubator. If you have a good basic
understanding of mechanics and electronics a car is easy. Of course I
dont repair the computers in cars I would just replace it. So far I have
never found one that needed replaced. Though I have been told by dealers
that my computer [still under warrenty] was bad. I declined the offer
and found the bad vacuum sensor and replaced it.
       Getting back to my incubator project, I want to build an incubatotor
that uses a micro controller that will maintain temperture with in one
degree farenhite and use a stepper motor to move the eggs every couple
of hours. I would also like to monitor relitive humidity. Would the
16f84 be a good choice of chips?

Andy Kunz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

PS: My formal education is 8th grade almost 50 years ago. I assembled my
own computer and those of my family. I can calibrate the stable platform
for missle guidance with its 3 accelerometors and rate gyros.

1999\03\12@175013 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Weaver <spam_OUTrweaver8spamspam.....abq.com>
To: Lawrence Lile <lilel.....spam@spam@toastmaster.com>
Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Customer Service @ CCS (was re: Bad Disk)


>Thanks for your reply. I think your advice to get an led blinking is
>good. My main concern is whether or not the 16f84 can do what I want.
> As I see it there are 8 pins and 1 of them is for ground only the other
>7 can be used as desired for output or return as needed.

There are two ports on the trusty '84 - Port A and port B.  Port A has 4
digital inputs, portB has 8 digital inputs.

One of the porta inputs can also be configures as TOCKI, a timer/counter
input, which is used in the pseudo-analog input ala app note 512.

Is this
>correct? Can the 16f84 store sufficent instructions to do what I want?


The '84 has 1K of memory.  I have found this to be quite adequate for many
simple control tasks - let's see you are talking about some timing - some
stepper motor control - and some analog temperature input and output.  I
would say it is probably up to the task at first glance.


>As I understand it the chip can use instructions in any of several
>computer languages if this is true which would you recommend?

Start by learning Microchip Assembler.  It comes free with MPLAB, which you
can download anytime.  If you haven't studied assembler it is awkward at
first, more so than Basic or Fortran or other high level languages.  On the
other hand, you can't really understand wqhat any other language is doing
without an understanding of assembler.

OTOH, you could also look into a BASIC STAMP which is a pic-based part with
a basic assembler strapped on.  Might be an easier learning curve.


I live in
>Albuquerque NM. Can you recomend a good source to purchase the 16f84
>chip from?


Jameco  1-800-831-4242 or Digikey   1-800-344-4539  They are national.

> I am familure with boolen algebra and the binary number system. Used
>them in the late 60s on a special purpose computer associated with a
>missle guidance system. I have looked at the DS1620 temperture
>controller and on the surface it appears that it would be a suitable
>temperture control. Do you agree or is there something else I should
>look at?

You've got a good grounding then.  You're biting off a big project though.
I'd be comfortable trying to do this project but I've been doing PIC stuff
for several years.



> I am going to keep your address and check back with you as I progress
>and need help.
>
>Thanks
>Ralph WeaverLawrence Lile wrote:


Don't keep my address - keep the PICLIST address.  Together the PIClist is
the absolute best resource any PICster can have.  Betweeen us we can do a
lot.

1999\03\16@110958 by Alice Campbell

flavicon
face
hi ralph,
snip
> never done any programming but hav significant electronic experiance and
> began working with special purpose computers in the late sixties.
>         I am now retired and raise parrots as a hobby. My project is an egg
> incubator. I like to make things for my self.
snip
> the most complicated piece of test equipment I use is a VOM. I could
> tell you how to fix your car but I dont yet know enough about the pic
> microcontrollers to build my incubator. If you have a good basic
>
>         Getting back to my incubator project, I want to build an incubatotor
> that uses a micro controller that will maintain temperture with in one
> degree farenhite and use a stepper motor to move the eggs every couple
> of hours. I would also like to monitor relitive humidity. Would the
> 16f84 be a good choice of chips?

actually, this suggests 2 separate projects. one the incubator, and
the other an egg-shaped datalogger that goes beneath your good
brooder and finds out what the environment of the egg is really like.
this is a good project, too.  a pic can sample temp or rel humid or
tilt every few minutes for a week, store the results in a memory
chip, which you can read back into your computer.  a few daily
cycles, and then you build the incubator, this time an intelligent
one that can actually reproduce a daily schedule for the egg thats
just like mom.   then the other project just follows the schedule.

good luck
alice
(have had 4 cockatoos at different times)


'16F84 What current is required by Pin.4 @ 13(+/-1)'
1999\04\07@051650 by Dave
picon face
Hello PICList,

Anyone know where I might find the specs on the minimum current I have to
supply at 13(+/-1)Vpp when programming the PIC 16F84 ?

I've had a look in some of Microchip's pdf's and
haven't found them anywhere else either.
I wonder which pdf I should be reading?

Thanks in advance,
</david_v>
spamBeGonedfvspamspam_OUTparadise.net.nz

'FREE PIC-BASIC COMPILER @...'
1999\04\18@104447 by DAZLOGAN

picon face
Get a FREE PIC basic compiler here...

       - L E T    C O M P I L E R   B A S I C   V1.0 -
               -----------------------------------------------
LEADING EDGE TECHNOLOGY LTD (MALTA)
   TEL 00356 678 509  FAX 00356 667484

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright Leading Edge Technology 1999 - http://let.cambs.net/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Rejected posting to PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU'
1999\04\26@185446 by Scott Fink

picon face
    Since this email was forwarded to me I do not know the original
    subject line, so I had to make one up, hopefully those interested in
    this thread picked up on it.

    This is in regards to Mark E'silva's message regarding the 12C509 vs
    12C509A oscillator calibration, and his complaint that code written
    for the 12C509 runs "a LOT slower" on the 12C509A.

    This is a basic misunderstanding of the purpose of the OSCCAL register
    and calibration of the internal RC oscillator and of RC oscillators in
    general.  The purpose of the OSCCAL register is to allow the user to
    move the value placed into the W register on reset by the MOVLW XX
    command placed at the reset vector (3FFh in the 12C509) by the
    factory.  This is to reduce the effects of the silicon process
    variation on the final frequency of the internal oscillator, and to
    allow Microchip to provide a tighter specification for the oscillator
    and still maintain a reasonable yield (and thus provide a reasonable
    cost to you, the customer).

    It is NOT recommended that the customer place any value other that the
    factory programmed oscillator calibration value into the OSCCAL
    register.  The reason for this is that if the customer designs his
    code to adjust the OSCCAL value up or down from that factory
    calibration value, there may not be any adjustment range left.  For
    example if the customer is trying to adjust the value two counts
    faster, what if the factory had to program the cal value to FFh (there
    would be no adjustment range left)?  If this is a high volume
    application, the customer could receive parts that he cannot use for
    many, many months until the process shifted back to a faster value.
    For this reason we recommend that customers use the factory programmed
    value and do any timing adjustments in software.

    Mr. E'silva doesn't say what voltage and temperature he is running at,
    so I will assume 25C and Vdd = 5.0V.  If I further assume that the
    12C509 is actually running at 4MHz and yields a 3.937KHz tone when set
    at mid range, the 12C509A must be running at 3.89MHz, well within the
    range of approx 3.71 to 4.22MHz shown in figure 14-1 of the data sheet
    (DS40139E), and really really within the spec given in table 13-3 of
    3.65 to 4.28MHz over temperature (but still at 5V).

    Remember that this is a resistor-capacitor (RC) oscillator and so
    cannot be expected to have a tolerance anything like a crystal or even
    a resonator.  If tight tolerances are needed over temperature and Vdd,
    you should use a crystal or resonator.


    I have been out of the office for a while and have not been watching
    the list, but I will get back on and see if there are any further
    questions about this, or you can directly email me.

    Best Regards,
    Scott Fink


'From hungtn@eisa.net.au (hung) Sub: SPI code'
1999\05\04@010533 by Tim Hamel
picon face
part 0 1964 bytes content-type:text/plain (decoded 7bit)

> Subject: SPI code
> From: EraseMEhungtn.....spameisa.net.au (hung)

>  i'm working on a project that uses 74HC165 and 74HC595 to increase
>  the number of I/O pins of PIC12C672. The I/O pins will be connected to
>  a Keypad and a LCD screen. Does anyone know where i can find sample
>  code on that ?
>
>  Thanks in advance !


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Dear Tim,

i'm a subscriber of PIC list but i do not know why i can
not post my message on the list. Could you please forward
it to the the list ?

Thanks.

*************************************

Subject: SPI code

i'm working on a project that uses 74HC165 and 74HC595 to increase
the number of I/O pins of PIC12C672. The I/O pins will be connected to
a Keypad and a LCD screen. Does anyone know where i can find sample
code on that ?

Thanks in advance !




'(Fwd) Rejected posting to PICLIST@MITVMA.MIT.EDU'
1999\05\22@110058 by brusso

flavicon
face
       Is there any rule of thumb for the frequency one uses to
run a (small in my case) DC motor at various speeds?  It seems
obvious that the duty cycle determines the speed.  What's not so
obvious is what range of frequency & why.
 Thanks

_________________

Bob Russo
Guilford, CT
spamBeGonebrussoKILLspamspamiconn.net
_________________

1999\05\25@042938 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Hi,
I use some hundred Hz as it fits. I can not say why, but it works.
Imre


On Sat, 22 May 1999, Bob Russo wrote:

{Quote hidden}


'Russell McMahon '
1999\06\07@175641 by Brent Brown
picon face
Gidday Russell,

Thought I would reply off-list.  I don't really think so but maybe a
masked ROM version of the Philips 87C749 would do what you
want.  Five 8 bit A to D, only one 8 bit PWM though, 28 pins, and
price is anyones guess.  I have a Philips PDS51 emulator (great
machine) with PDB752 daughter board that would do the job if you
are interested.

Kind regards, Brent


You wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Brent Brown
Electronic Design Solutions &
HI-TECH Software Reseller
16 English Street
Hamilton, New Zealand
Toll Free: 0508 HITECH (0508 448 324)
Ph/fax: +64 7 849 0069
Mobile: 025 334 069
eMail:  EraseMEbrent.brownRemoveMEspam@spam@clear.net.nz

1999\06\08@052521 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
> You wrote:
> > CHEAP AS POSSIBLE
<<cut>>
> > CHEAP AS POSSIBLE
<<cut>>
> > CHEAP AS POSSIBLE
<<CUT>>
> > Also, the whole job must be as cheap as possible :-)
<<cut>>
> > I currently do not have a PIC ICE.
<<cut>>

ZILOG ? (cheap as possible), cheap emulator also.

--
Steam engines may be out of fashion, but when you consider that an
internal combustion engine would require recovery of waste heat by
transfer just before top dead centre then fashion becomes rather
redundant, USE STRATIFIED HEAT EXCHANGERS ! and external combustion.

You heard it first from: Graham Daniel, managing director of Electronic
Product Enhancements.
Phone NZ 04 387 4347, Fax NZ 04 3874348, Cellular NZ 021 954 196.

'Help with 24C01 and PIC1673B @ 20Mhz osc'
1999\06\25@123708 by Bill Henning

flavicon
face
Hi guys,

I've been trying to get a 24C01 working reliably with a 16C73B for a few

days now... without much success. I can use the i2c.asm code supplied
with a PICDEM2 to read/write the eeprom with a 4Mhz RC oscillator,
however even if I pad the code with delays in order to keep the timing
as close as possible (to the 4Mhz timing) it is not reliable.

I've been reading the I2C specs and 24C01 data sheets, and I am about to

bite the bullet and design clock-cycle accurate code for the PIC; but
before I do that I thought I'd ask if anyone had some code that they
could point me at...

Thanks,

Bill Henning

1999\06\25@124123 by CUTTLER!

flavicon
face
In regards to the question of what the difference is between SPI and IIC is this....
Bit banging a IIC device is much more involved than bit banging a SPI device..

Carl Bright (CMC) Communications Mfg. Co.
RemoveMEcpbrightspamspamEraseMEionet.net
http://www.ionet.net/~cpbright



>bite the bullet and design clock-cycle accurate code for the PIC; but
>before I do that I thought I'd ask if anyone had some code that they
>could point me at...

1999\06\25@133517 by Stephen Buckser

flavicon
face
The CCS C compiler library i2c bit banging code works fine for me with a 24C01
and 20MHz PIC1674.

Steve Buckser

1999\06\25@140428 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I'm doing an I2C monitor right now - Just hangs on an I2C port reading
numbers off it, not saying anything back.  Had to use hand-tuned assembly -
very tricky timing.  Basically there's no time to wait around for anything,
all had to be straight line code. No subroutine calls allowed.   I2C is
meant to be a hardware communication standard,  nobody thought they'd ned to
use a microcontroller on it when it was invented.

Yes you will have to bite the bullet.

P.S.  Any of you nonwestern guys out there not know what Bite the Bullet
means?


{Original Message removed}

1999\06\25@141458 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>P.S.  Any of you nonwestern guys out there not know what Bite the Bullet
>means?

Yup.

When I was a kid we went to a Revolutionary War museum near Valley Forge,
PA.  (One of several cool trips we had - our group leader's uncle was a
bigwig (know the source of THAT term?) at the Philly Navy base).

On display were bullets which had been thoroughly flattened by patients in
the "hospital" who munched them while assorted limbs were removed, or so it
goes.  As I recall from a trip to Chancellorsville VA and possibly
Gettysburg PA, this was still the practice.  Something about Stonewall
Jackson's amputation was different, but I forget what.

Oh yes, for all you drunkards out there, the bullet was used in addition to
getting fully soused first.

With that in mind, I guess "bite the bullet" would literally translate to
"get drunk and have your arms chopped off" <VBG>.

Andy

==================================================================
Buy your hydro model how -- INTRODUCTORY PRICING ENDS JULY 1, 1999
==================================================================
Andy Kunz               Life is what we do to prepare for Eternity
------------------------------------------------------------------
STOPspamandy.....spamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
spamBeGoneandyRemoveMEspamRemoveMEmontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

'24C01/PIC16C73B @ 20Mhz problem solved'
1999\06\25@165210 by Bill Henning

flavicon
face
Thank you for the suggestions / replies.

I ended up completing the more accurate timing version of the code, and
by allowing for the eeprom to strech the low phase of the clock (instead
of raising an error condition as in the microchip app note) I was able
to resolve my problems.

Regards,

Bill Henning

'Help with 24C01 and PIC1673B @ 20Mhz osc'
1999\06\27@194629 by Dennis Plunkett

flavicon
face
At 14:14 25/06/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>P.S.  Any of you nonwestern guys out there not know what Bite the Bullet
>>means?
>
>Yup.
>
>When I was a kid we went to a Revolutionary War museum near Valley Forge,
>PA.  (One of several cool trips we had - our group leader's uncle was a
>bigwig (know the source of THAT term?) at the Philly Navy base).
>
Yes I do, it comes down to the times of when taxes where placed on wigs,
only those whom had money could afford to ware such, while those with
little money (Or the job that paid for the wig) did not, hence there was
more horse hair to make the wigs, and they got a bit bigger!
Again like byte the bullet it is not an American term


Dennis

'[OT] to Bill Bass - an E-mail to bass_82@YAHOO.COM'
1999\06\28@101026 by Caisson

flavicon
face
Hello Bill,

 I send a mail to @spam@bass_82spamBeGonespamYAHOO.COM , but it came back ...

 following is the response :

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The original message was received at Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:00:46 +0200
from pm4-06.nmg.telebyte.nl [194.235.221.135]

  ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<spam_OUTbill_82spamspamyahoo.com>

  ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to mta-x1.yahoomail.com.:
>>> DATA
<<< 552 qdirdel.1 error 100:This user does not have a yahoo.com account
(spambill_82spamspamspamyahoo.com)
554 <spamBeGonebill_82KILLspamspamKILLspamyahoo.com>... Service unavailable


'[paulb@midcoast.com.au: Re: Binary to ASCII]'
1999\09\06@190845 by Bob Drzyzgula
flavicon
face
I'm assuming that Paul meant to send this
to the list...

I have to add, though, that I was just thinking
that *his* was an excellent suggestion...

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
TakeThisOuTbobspamspamdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================
       http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/
============================================================

Return-Path: <spamBeGonepaulbspammidcoast.com.au>
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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 08:18:48 +1000
From: "Paul B. Webster VK2BZC" <EraseMEpaulbspamBeGonespamspammidcoast.com.au>
Reply-To: KILLspampaulbspammidcoast.com.au
Organization: Webster Medical Pty. Ltd. http://www.midcoast.com.au/~paulb/
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Bob Drzyzgula <picspam_OUTspamspamdrzyzgula.org>
Subject: Re: Binary to ASCII
References: <3.0.32.19990905122919.0069e7c4spamspam@spam@popd.ix.netcom.com>>                    <006001bef8ae$c1595e10$8a078cd4@armari> <19990906180358.A343
spamBeGone1.....spamnexus.drzyzgula.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-UIDL: 4842f5e621c008f06161f197a05b73e9

Bob Drzyzgula wrote:

>   Extra garbage will be included to make the character count a
> multiple of 4.  The body is terminated by a line with a count of zero.
> This line consists of one ASCII space.

 NOT germaine to the topic in hand, but one little problem with
UUEncode in messages and cutting and pasting is that it may contain
trailing blanks which many text editors strip, including that terminator
line.

 For the matter at hand though, an excellent suggestion.  It *is* easy
to implement.  I would suggest a final printable non-blank framing
character for the above reason.  Generates printable, if meaningless
data which you can store in text files.

 And then there's Kermit too...
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'~!@#$% Happy again'
1999\09\17@144717 by Bertel Schmitt

picon face
<x-flowed>"sintax" <.....sintax@spam@spamis-1.net.au> , relayed via @spam@sisuserspamip.co.za , uploaded a
Happy virus to this list. This is an ongoing problem and it is really
getting nauseating. People have complained to  ip.co.za several times. If
they can't get their adolescent users under control, I move to disconnect
the sisuserRemoveMEspamip.co.za relay altogether.

BS

</x-flowed>

1999\09\17@172513 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
Bertel Schmitt wrote:
>
> "sintax" <spamsintaxspamis-1.net.au> , relayed via sisuserspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTip.co.za , uploaded a
> Happy virus to this list. This is an ongoing problem and it is really
> getting nauseating. People have complained to  ip.co.za several times. If
> they can't get their adolescent users under control, I move to disconnect
> the spam_OUTsisuser@spam@spamRemoveMEip.co.za relay altogether.

If you re-read the header, you will find that the user is a PICLIST
member also, and the message was sent to the piclist by him. So it's our
problem also. Calling him names won't help, and there is no relay in
place, it is simply a dual addressed message by a person who is a member
of both lists. You will find hundreds of users in this position. I am
sending a copy of this to the sisuser list also.

You will find the ip.co.za domain is run by a prominent South African
Piclister (well I think he is busy these days, we don't hear much) that
runs these lists at his own expense. He also started and runs the atmel
list, bascom list for atmels, and many lists for private individuals.

He started the atmel list to keep the signal to noise ratio down on this
list, as there was no venue for the atmel avr guys in place, so you will
find piclisters on many "ip.co.za" lists, I will guarantee it.

Has anyone gone to the trouble to inform Sintax that he has the virus in
his email program, so as to assist him in removing it?

He has asked a legitimate pic question, and will be unaware of the virus
problem.
How many others have we seen do just his on this list?

Don McKenzie  spamdonspamspamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon:   http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html
Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest:  http://www.simmstick.com

1999\09\17@215524 by William M. Smithers

flavicon
face
On Fri, 17 Sep 1999, Bertel Schmitt wrote:

> "sintax" <@spam@sintaxspam_OUTspamis-1.net.au> , relayed via .....sisuserspam.....ip.co.za , uploaded a
> Happy virus to this list. This is an ongoing problem and it is really
> getting nauseating. People have complained to  ip.co.za several times. If
> they can't get their adolescent users under control, I move to disconnect
> the spamsisuserKILLspamspamip.co.za relay altogether.

Or, rather than being angry, you could just be proactive and get back to our
collective roots - set up your email on a UNIX system (or variant) - tends
to eliminate 99% of the virus crap.

-Will

'[OT] Happy - was Re: ~!@#$% Happy again'
1999\09\18@065916 by Russell McMahon

picon face
No, I disagree - receiving the occasional copy of Happy is good practice for
everyone.
Seriously.
Happy is ALMOST benign (no trojan is totally so) in that its one task in
life is to propagate itself.

You only catch it by running a forwarded attachment.
This is a VERY stupid thing to do.
There are much much worse things that you can contract by doing this.
If everyone who sends happy is roundly abused (in the most gentle loving way
possible of course) then they MAY get the idea before something really nasty
comes along.
Similarly, EVERYONE who receives Happy should just delete it and in the
process add unconsciously to the mental note that bad things can happen top
people who run unverified attachments.

Think of it as an excellent training and inoculation exercise.



RM


PS - I didn't see it appear in my PICList email.

_____________________________________________
What can one PIC-LISTer do?  Help the hungry for free at -
http://www.thehungersite.com/
Have a look - it's interesting.
__________________________________________

{Original Message removed}

'~!@#$% Happy again'
1999\09\19@081918 by paulb

flavicon
face
William M. Smithers wrote:

> - set up your email on a UNIX system (or variant) - tends to eliminate
> 99% of the virus crap.

 Now you've got me curious!  Which is the 1%?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'~!@#$% Happy again (also [OT] Mchip f__k up)'
1999\09\20@021444 by root

flavicon
face
Hi,
where can I found the ATMEL list?
I ask bcus in the last time the local provider has serious problems to
provide the appropriate amount & quality of PICs. He told me the problem
is a minimal ordering amount (I recall 1000 by individual sorts). So I'm
afraid it starts a down-running spirale; the more disappointed customers,
the less orders, which increases number of disappointed customers etc.

Another provider now sells AT89C2051, for $2.75. Can be compared with
16F84 (but no EEPROM), or with 16C622. However, it has:

- 2k Flash
- a built-in USART
- one built-in comparator
- 128 byte RAM area
- 15 I/O pins
- 2 external IT

I guess it is time for me to think about its usage in SOME starting
project.

----[discussion material follows]----

I think a smallish problem is caused by an otherwise good thing: the great
variety of PICs. It may be a fine but if you think e. g. the
following: there are 16C620, 621, 622, both for 4 and 20 MHz and in a wide
variety of housing, would not be an advantage to keep only one, say
16C622? The economy of scale would decrease the price so that single one
would cost as many as the 620 nowadays? (I forget the temperature variety,
which also doubles the count of sorts...)

On the other hand, as Mchip has announced the new flash types, it lead to
extremely high expectations, especially because of competing producers has
similar products (Hitachi, Atmel, etc). This lead also to a decreased
demand for another PICs. On the other hand, MChip announced also the 18Cxx
line. Such way the firm landed in a bottleneck.

I do not know whether Mchip is strong enough to cope with this bundle of
home-made problems, but I wish him (in the interest all of us) good luck.
I would suggest to clean up the production line and decrease the variety.

Not to forget that Mchip offers his production line alone (in my opinion
SX is not a true alternative due to the limited stack depth), contrary to
the '51 line, where one has a choice to select among different producers
(Intel, Dallas, Philips, Atmel, Siemens and many others).

Here is my $0.02.

Imre

On Sat, 18 Sep 1999, Don McKenzie wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\09\20@030359 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
----- Original Message -----
From: root <@spam@rootRemoveMEspamPROF.PMMF.HU>
To: <PICLIST@spam@spamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: ~!@#$% Happy again (also [OT] Mchip f__k up)


> Hi,
> where can I found the ATMEL list?

spam_OUTatmelspam_OUTspamRemoveMEpic.co.za

1999\09\20@033101 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
root wrote:
>
> Hi,
> where can I found the ATMEL list?

Looks like this:

- Send message to RemoveMEatmel-requestspam.....pic.co.za with the word
- JOIN
- in the message body

Use LEAVE instead of JOIN to remove yourself from the list. Send all
commands to the list server from the same Email account.

However I attempted to join a few days ago without success. Didn't get a
message returned, so I don't know if there is a problem or not. Just
tried again now, in fact this message was a reminder.

Don McKenzie  spamdon@spam@spamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon:   http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html
Win $500USD Cash. Micro design contest:  http://www.simmstick.com

'[OT] Atmel lists [was re: ~!@#$% Happy ... ]'
1999\09\20@064708 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
There are two other AVR-related lists that I know of.

The AVR egroups list can be found at

 http://www.egroups.com/list/avr/

You don't have to read it on the website, you can
configure it to come to your inbox.

Also, for discussions of the AVR port of GCC and
the GNU Atmel assembler AVA, there's the avr gcc
list; info can be found at:

 http://medo.fov.uni-mb.si/mapp/maillist.html

Both lists are lightly active, perhaps two to ten
messages in a day; responsiveness and S/N are
quite high.

AVA and the GCC port to AVR are both awesome, BTW.
I've been tinkering with GCC on an AT90S8535, and
it works very well.

--Bob

On Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 05:34:58PM +1000, Don McKenzie wrote:
> root wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > where can I found the ATMEL list?
>
> Looks like this:
>
> - Send message to atmel-requestTakeThisOuTspampic.co.za with the word
> - JOIN
> - in the message body
...

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
.....bobspamTakeThisOuTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================
       http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/
============================================================

'[OT] Happy - was Re: ~!@#$% Happy again'
1999\09\20@102804 by eplus1

flavicon
face
I totally agree with Russell, reader (and buyer) beware. Education and
experience are the only real defense against virus propagation.

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
EraseMEjamesnewtonspamKILLspamgeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phone



{Original Message removed}

'~!@#$% Happy again (also [OT] Mchip f__k up)'
1999\09\20@115332 by eplus1

flavicon
face
<BLOCKQUOTE AUTHOR="root">Not to forget that Mchip offers his production
line alone (in my opinion
SX is not a true alternative due to the limited stack depth)</BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you figure the SX (I assume you mean the Scenix SX) has a more
limited stack depth than the PIC?
All the Sx's have a stack depth of 8 and I don't remember seeing any PIC's
with a deeper stack. Please tell me where I am going wrong on this.


James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
jamesnewtonEraseMEspamgeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phoneÊ

1999\09\21@031812 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Hi,

you are right, my mistake (I have intermixed somehow with 16C5x series).
It is pricy, however, at least at us.

Regards,
Imre

On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, James Newton wrote:

{Quote hidden}


'unsubscribe marko@comtechservices.com'
1999\10\23@162647 by marko
flavicon
face
part 0 320 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; (decoded 7bit)


Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
name="marko.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Marko Palikko
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="marko.vcf"

Attachment converted: wonderland:marko.vcf 1 (TEXT/CSOm) (0000E625)

'microcontroller@montanadesign.com'
1999\10\27@180328 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
Earlier I posted instructions for getting on the new list.

Unfortunately I screwed up (what else is new) and made it difficult to get on.

You can use the web page http://www.montanadesign.com/maillist.html easier
now if you want to sign up.  Thanks to Matt Bonner for pointing this out to me.

Also, if you don't get approved for the list tonight, don't sweat it.  I'll
be adding you in the morning as soon as I get in.

Thanks for understanding.

Andy

==================================================================
Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------
TakeThisOuTandyspamTakeThisOuTrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
andyspamspam_OUTmontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\10\27@211855 by Brian Kraut

picon face
You forgot to add the "Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.  Now I have my own list."
:-)

Andy Kunz wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\10\27@215700 by V sml

picon face
Thank you for you good intention.

I think we should not fork the list further if the list-master do not
mind accomodating those areas that you are setting out to achieve.
Otherwise most of us  would end up subscribing to all the forks.
Useful contents would not go up but work does and noise does.

Ling SM

> You can use the web page http://www.montanadesign.com/maillist.html
easier
> now if you want to sign up.  Thanks to Matt Bonner for pointing this
out to me.

1999\10\28@000844 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>I think we should not fork the list further if the list-master do not
>mind accomodating those areas that you are setting out to achieve.
>Otherwise most of us  would end up subscribing to all the forks.
>Useful contents would not go up but work does and noise does.

Ling,

I appreciate your comments.  There was an off-list discussion recently
among a handful of us discussing the future (even continued existence) of
the MIT PIC list.  This list.

In order to prevent losing this valuable resource, I put up an alternate list.

Some of the top names on this list are already subscribed, so the quality
will be there.  Most of the others are "lurkers" that is, they read but
don't post very often, if ever.

I invite you to at least look at the list.  If the MIT list eventually does
go away, you won't be out in the cold.  That's what I was especially afraid of.

Again, the address of the information on this new list is found at:

       http://www.montanadesign.com/maillist.html

Andy


==================================================================
Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------
RemoveMEandy@spam@spamspamrc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
RemoveMEandyRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTmontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\10\28@093151 by paulb

flavicon
face
Brian Kraut wrote:

> You forgot to add the "Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.  Now I have my
> own list."  :-)

 Don't you mean "Nya, nya, nya, nya, nya!  ?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\10\28@095252 by Darrel Johansen

picon face
This new list seems to be very similar to the news group comp.arch.embedded.
--
___________________________
|     Darrel Johansen     |
|     tempe,  arizona     |
|   darreljTakeThisOuTspam@spam@primenet.com  |
|_________________________|

1999\10\28@101126 by - KITS EDUCACIONAIS NACIONAIS

flavicon
face
Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>
> Brian Kraut wrote:
>
> > You forgot to add the "Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.  Now I have my
> > own list."  :-)
>
>   Don't you mean "Nya, nya, nya, nya, nya!  ?
> --
>   Cheers,
>         Paul B.

or "nein","nein","nein","nein","nein",?

1999\10\28@102831 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 09:34 PM 10/27/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>You forgot to add the "Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.  Now I have my own
>list."  :-)

:-)

Actually, I don't have "my own list."  "WE" have an alternate to the MIT
list in case of its demise.

Andy

==================================================================
Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------
andyTakeThisOuTspamspamBeGonerc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
spamandyTakeThisOuTspammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\10\28@103804 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 06:51 PM 10/27/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>This new list seems to be very similar to the news group comp.arch.embedded.

Yes, but some of us detest NG's.  I will be posting over there as soon as I
get some administrative things working better for the list.

Manual list admin isn't a lot of fun right now.  Hopefully it's just
startup things.

Andy

==================================================================
Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------
.....andyspamspamBeGonerc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
.....andyTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEmontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\10\28@110153 by Robert A. LaBudde

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<x-flowed>At 10:25 AM 10/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 06:51 PM 10/27/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >This new list seems to be very similar to the news group comp.arch.embedded.
>
>Yes, but some of us detest NG's.  I will be posting over there as soon as I
>get some administrative things working better for the list.
>
>Manual list admin isn't a lot of fun right now.  Hopefully it's just
>startup things.
>
>Andy

What happened to the required [OT] or [ADMIN] prefixes here?

So much for the prefix idea!

================================================================
Robert A. LaBudde, PhD, PAS, Dpl. ACAFS  e-mail: RemoveMEralspamspamKILLspamlcfltd.com
Least Cost Formulations, Ltd.                   URL: http://lcfltd.com/
824 Timberlake Drive                            Tel: 757-467-0954
Virginia Beach, VA 23464-3239                   Fax: 757-467-2947

"Vere scire est per causae scire"
================================================================

</x-flowed>

'microcontroller@montanadesign.com [OT]'
1999\10\28@141007 by Matt Bonner

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"Robert A. LaBudde" wrote:

> What happened to the required [OT] or [ADMIN] prefixes here?

It wouldn't have fallen under [ADMIN] and a lot of people filter [OT]
into the trash bin.  What Andy's doing should remove a lot of the chaff
from the PIClist, so his posting was definitely on topic.

> So much for the prefix idea!

I've now added [OT] to the subject line.  Why didn't you?

--Matt

1999\10\28@182208 by Dennis Plunkett

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At 13:10 28/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
>>
>> Brian Kraut wrote:
>>
>> > You forgot to add the "Nay, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay.  Now I have my
>> > own list."  :-)
>>
>>   Don't you mean "Nya, nya, nya, nya, nya!  ?
>> --
>>   Cheers,
>>         Paul B.
>
>or "nein","nein","nein","nein","nein",?
>
>


Humm,
I thought it would be Nar nar, nnar na! (Poke out toung and wiggle fingers
wide open with thumbs in ears)

Dennis

1999\10\28@183025 by TIM

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.well..he haw .he haw ........wish my pic will  some day generate that magic
lotto  number.....he haw ,,he haw ,,,,bingo!!
{Original Message removed}

'microcontroller@montanadesign.com Grossly [OT]'
1999\10\29@002731 by paulb

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Dennis Plunkett wrote:

> I thought it would be Nar nar, nnar na! (Poke out tongue and wiggle
> fingers wide open with thumbs in ears)

 That is what I meant.  If you must get technical, perhaps
"Nyar, nyar, nyah, nyarr, nyar! would be closer.

--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'Fw: fw06@pop.dial.pipex.com r. unknown " Effi'
1999\10\29@102415 by Jim Main

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<fwd>
>I'm sure I saw an easy way to reverse a byte some time ago in
this list, but
>I've forgotten it..
>
>I want to change   b7 b6 b5 b4 b3 b2 b1 b0   to  b0 b1 b2 b3 b4
b5 b6 b7.
>
>Quickest & most code efficient??

Wagner's lookup table has to be about the quickest way... but something
a little more code efficient:

Enter with byte to be reversed in WREG, exits with reversed byte in
WREG. Reverse is trashed.


RevWReg:
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = d6 d5 d4 d3 d2 d1 d0 C
{C = d7}
rrcf Reverse,f ; Rev = d7 R7 R6 R5 R4 R3 R2 R1
{C = R0}
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = d5 d4 d3 d2 d1 d0 C  R0
{C = d6}
rrcf Reverse,f ; Rev = d6 d7 R7 R6 R5 R4 R3 R2
{C = R1}
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = d4 d3 d2 d1 d0 C  R0 R1
{C = d5}
rrcf Reverse,f ; Rev = d5 d6 d7 R7 R6 R5 R4 R3
{C = R2}
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = d3 d2 d1 d0 C  R0 R1 R2
{C = d4}
rrcf Reverse,f ; Rev = d4 d5 d6 d7 R7 R6 R5 R4
{C = R3}
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = d2 d1 d0 C  R0 R1 R2 R3
{C = d3}
rrcf Reverse,f ; Rev = d3 d4 d5 d6 d7 R7 R6 R5
{C = R4}
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = d1 d0 C  R0 R1 R2 R3 R4
{C = d2}
rrcf Reverse,f ; Rev = d2 d3 d4 d5 d6 d7 R7 R6
{C = R5}
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = d0 C  R0 R1 R2 R3 R4 R5
{C = d1}
rrcf Reverse,f ; Rev = d1 d2 d3 d4 d5 d6 d7 R7
{C = R6}
rlcf WREG,f ; W   = C  R0 R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 R6
{C = d0}
rrcf Reverse,w ; W   = d0 d1 d2 d3 d4 d5 d6 d7
{C = R7}

       return



- Andy.

---------------------------------------------------------
Andrew David, Software Manager, Ultronics Ltd, Cheltenham
STOPspamakdavidEraseMEspamultronics.co.uk          http://www.ultronics.com

'microcontroller@montanadesign.com'
1999\10\31@171734 by Dennis Plunkett

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If this is not the pot calling the kettle black!
Where is your [OT]?
Just a short note to YOU...
This EMAIL has been battered around by several people,
I hope that you went to the trouble to also piss them off too.


Most upset with childish behaviour
Dennis




At 07:48 29/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>{Original Message removed}


'fw06@pop.dial.pipex.com r. unknown " Re: Effi'
1999\11\01@073002 by Andy David
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part 0 734 bytes
       A minor point, possibly, but...

       Something that Andy Warren wrote a few years ago is that
       the path through a btfsc/s instruction is isochronous.
       Either the following instruction is executed, or it isn't,
       so the btfsc/s will either take two instruction cycles to
       execute the btfsc/s and the following instruction, or two
       instructions to execute the btfsc/s and the skip.

       Either way, the time from one btfsc/s to the next is always
       two cycles, making this routine isochronous.


- Andy.
---------------------------------------------------------
Andrew David, Software Manager, Ultronics Ltd, Cheltenham
akdavid@spam@spamultronics.co.uk          http://www.ultronics.com


'fw06@pop.dial.pipex.com r. unknown " Re: MPAS'
1999\11\01@074426 by Andy David

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part 0 616 bytes
       You can use something like:

       Const   equ     0x123456

               movlw   Const>>.16
               movwf   ACCaHI
               movlw   (Const>>.8) & 0xff
               movwf   ACCaMID
               movlw   Const & 0xff
               movwf   ACCaLO

Check the .LST file to be sure that the movlw's are loading the correct
constants. Note that the prefix '.' means radix decimal.

- Andy.

---------------------------------------------------------
Andrew David, Software Manager, Ultronics Ltd, Cheltenham
spam_OUTakdavidspamspamultronics.co.uk          http://www.ultronics.com



'Jim @ Newfound'
1999\12\07@134819 by Don McKenzie
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face
Just got a phone call from Jim @ Newfound who has asked me to tell the
group that he will be off the air for a while, as his new PC hardware
transplant hasn't gone well at all, and it may be several days or longer
before he can respond to email.

Don McKenzie  donspam_OUTspamRemoveMEdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel and PICmicro Hardware and Software
StampStick 32K EEPROM Basic http://www.dontronics.com/tiny51.html

1999\12\07@151718 by paulb

flavicon
face
Don McKenzie wrote:

> Just got a phone call from Jim @ Newfound who has asked me to tell the
> group that he will be off the air for a while, as his new PC hardware
> transplant hasn't gone well at all,

 Nothing to do with formatting a 15 GB drive like this sodding specimen
I've been wrangling here for nearly 4 weeks?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\12\07@161904 by Don McKenzie

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Mark Willis wrote:
> > Don McKenzie wrote:
> > > Just got a phone call from Jim @ Newfound who has asked me to tell the
> > > group that he will be off the air for a while, as his new PC hardware
> > > transplant hasn't gone well at all,

> You folks might consider having 15+ computers, then you can always get
> ONE to work <G>  (Try moving at a later time;

I updated 2 days ago to a new system, and it's the first time I allowed
my self the luxury of sitting two systems side by side, and using a hard
drive mobile rack (or caddy) between the two for file transfer.
I may spend a month setting up my old parameters, but who cares. I do it
when I need it, and I have a working system to follow.

And I learnt my first lesson with data back-up in 1978. I had my TRS-80
in the same outlet as the one my wife wanted to use for the Iron. After
8 hours of writing "Hello, I am your friendly TRS-80 Computer" or
something just as serious, which I hadn't saved to cassette tape, she
pulled my plug.
"Darling, I said". :-)

> Don, if he needs anything, I can mail it soon.

Thanks Mark.

Don McKenzie  spamdonspamBeGonespamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel and PICmicro Hardware and Software
StampStick 32K EEPROM Basic http://www.dontronics.com/tiny51.html

1999\12\07@215109 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face
At 05:52 8/12/99 +1100, you wrote:

Thanks Don,

Jim has re-entered the building.

Jim

>Just got a phone call from Jim @ Newfound who has asked me to tell the
>group that he will be off the air for a while, as his new PC hardware
>transplant hasn't gone well at all, and it may be several days or longer
>before he can respond to email.
>
>Don McKenzie  spamdonRemoveMEspamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com
>
>World's Largest Range of Atmel and PICmicro Hardware and Software
>StampStick 32K EEPROM Basic http://www.dontronics.com/tiny51.html
>
Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS
________________________________________
Email: KILLspamnewfoundspam_OUTspamspam_OUTpipeline.com.au
http://www.new-elect.com
MPLAB compatible PIC programmers.
________________________________________


'RS232 for PIC16F84 @4MHZ'
2000\01\20@164451 by Auracher
picon face
Im serarching for an RS232 Programm that is easy and working on
on an PIC16F84 with 4MHz and an MAX232.

The samples I found in the web dont work! pleas send me some
links or programmes that are working

Thanks .


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

2000\01\20@165333 by Auracher

picon face
Im serarching for an RS232 Programm that is easy and working on
on an PIC16F84 with 4MHz and an MAX232.

The samples I found in the web dont work! pleas send me some
links or programmes that are working

Thanks .





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

2000\01\20@171547 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
Auracher wrote:
>
> Im serarching for an RS232 Programm that is easy and working on
> on an PIC16F84 with 4MHz and an MAX232.
>
> The samples I found in the web dont work! pleas send me some
> links or programmes that are working

Need RS-232 routines for PICmicros without UARTs?

Basic Stamp Compatible PIC Source Book/Disk On-Line Version Free!
Now converted to MicroChip Code, still available in Parallax Code.

A collection of ready-to-use assembly language routines
based on the instruction set of the BASIC Stamp ¨ single-board
computer by Scott Edwards Electronics.
                                               
Serin (receive data) receives a byte or string of bytes serially.
Optionally filters incoming data to a particular range of ASCII
characters, such as numbers.

Serin (convert # data) converts a numeric text string received
by Serin into a 16-bit number.
 
Serin (check qualifiers) determines whether text received by
Serin matches a table of qualifiers (password).  

Serout (send data) transmits a byte or string of bytes serially
 
Serout (format # data) converts a 16-bit number into a counted
string for transmission by Serout.  

Includes useful schematics.
For MicroChip code:
http://www.dontronics.com/convert.html
For Parallax code:
http://www.dontronics.com/see.html

Don McKenzie    donspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTdontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR and  PICmicro Hardware and  Software.
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html

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