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PICList Thread
'Name that chip! [adjacent topic]'
1998\01\25@163111 by John P. Leonard

flavicon
face
Hi all,

I need help identifying an IC in a device I'm dissecting.  The device is
a the receiver for an "invisible fence" system for pets:  a buried perimeter
wire emits a signal that is picked up by a small receiver attached to the
pet's collar.  The transmitter and receiver are both PIC-based; the receiver
detects the signal with an IC bearing the following logo and part #:

                 ___________________
                /                  /
              /      ____________/
            /______/   _________         9  5  3  3  H
                      /       /
                    /       /
                  /       /            4   0  6  9  U  B
                /_______/



This receiver would work perfectly in a project I'm working on.
Any help on who the manufacturer of the mystery IC would be appreciated.

Thanks,
John Leonard

J-TRON Eng.
Midland, MI

1998\01\25@164328 by Eric Naus

picon face
The 4069 chip is a hex inverter

Bye for now

Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: John P. Leonard <spam_OUTleonardTakeThisOuTspamTARDIS.SVSU.EDU>
To: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sunday, January 25, 1998 4:31 PM
Subject: Name that chip! [adjacent topic]


>Hi all,
>
>I need help identifying an IC in a device I'm dissecting.  The device is
>a the receiver for an "invisible fence" system for pets:  a buried
perimeter
>wire emits a signal that is picked up by a small receiver attached to the
>pet's collar.  The transmitter and receiver are both PIC-based; the
receiver
{Quote hidden}

1998\01\25@173324 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
4069UB=CMOS HEX inverter of series 4000, Unbuffered MAnufactured year 95
Week 33
A very lot of manufacturer make it. For data try Mototrola, Harris,
National etc
Pinning as TTL 7404, Voltage 3-15V typical
One of my favourites.
Often used in analog mode as inverting amplifier: Input voltage via
resistor to inverter input, and another between input and output. Cheap,
simple low-end.
In the named cirquit, replacing the one inverter with two serially
connected inverters instead, makes it an scmitt-trigger. Another use is to
build crystal oscillators. Or RC oscillators, or....

Regards
/Morgan


At 16:19 1998-01-25 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, Sweden, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax 70331
============================================================================

1998\01\25@181714 by Cees

flavicon
face
part 0 1085 bytes
----------
From:   John P. Leonard[SMTP:.....leonardKILLspamspam.....TARDIS.SVSU.EDU]
Sent:   Sunday, January 25, 1998 10:19 PM
To:     EraseMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Name that chip! [adjacent topic]

Hi all,

I need help identifying an IC in a device I'm dissecting.  The device is
a the receiver for an "invisible fence" system for pets:  a buried perimeter
wire emits a signal that is picked up by a small receiver attached to the
pet's collar.  The transmitter and receiver are both PIC-based; the receiver
detects the signal with an IC bearing the following logo and part #:

                 ___________________
                /                  /
              /      ____________/
            /______/   _________         9  5  3  3  H
                      /       /
                    /       /
                  /       /            4   0  6  9  U  B
                /_______/



This receiver would work perfectly in a project I'm working on.
Any help on who the manufacturer of the mystery IC would be appreciated.

Thanks,
John Leonard

J-TRON Eng.
Midland, MI



1998\01\25@195137 by tsk3000

picon face
Well... Since we seem to be having fun naming chips...  ;)

Does anyone know what a P85C220 is?  It has a M with a ring around it
(Motorola if I recall correctly).  It would seem to be some kind of
microcontroller.

Thanks!
--
~Keith
tsk3000spamspam_OUTProdigy.Net
http://pages.prodigy.net/tsk3000/


'HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST [admin; suggest ch'
1998\06\25@195650 by James Cameron
picon face
Timothy D. Gray wrote:
> Note : this is sent to everyone upon subscribing.

Yes.  And I suggest that the command confirmation message that is sent
out before this message be adjusted so that people have to read and
understand how to unsubscribe before they find the instructions on how
to confirm their subscription.

--
James Cameron                              (@spam@james.cameronKILLspamspamdigital.com)
Digital Equipment Corporation (Australia) Pty. Ltd. A.C.N. 000 446 800

'[ADMIN] Sender ID'
1998\06\26@044601 by Paul BRITTON

flavicon
face
There has been some traffic on the list recently (and previously) about
being able to determine who posted a message, here's what I did......

Send a message to 'KILLspamLISTSERVKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu', with no title, in the body of
the message put 'SET PICLIST DUAL'...this will make all Piclist messages
have 5 lines at the top that contain subject and senders name......you
can't use ReplyTo: to send a personal email back, but you can cut and
paste from the message, even if they don't use a signature line.


For other LISTSERV commands send to 'RemoveMELISTSERVTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu', a message
saying 'INFO REFCARD', I won't include the response here, because some
already know, and others don't care!


TTFN
Paul BRITTON

'HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST [admin; suggest ch'
1998\06\26@071333 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: James Cameron <spamBeGonejames.cameronspamBeGonespamDIGITAL.COM>
> Aan: TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST [admin; suggest change]
> Datum: vrijdag 26 juni 1998 1:33
>
> Timothy D. Gray wrote:
> > Note : this is sent to everyone upon subscribing.
>
> Yes.  And I suggest that the command confirmation message that is sent
> out before this message be adjusted so that people have to read and
> understand how to unsubscribe before they find the instructions on how
> to confirm their subscription.
>
> --
> James Cameron                              (RemoveMEjames.cameronspamTakeThisOuTdigital.com)
> Digital Equipment Corporation (Australia) Pty. Ltd. A.C.N. 000 446 800

How many times do you ('you' ment as 'the piclist-group')
subscribe/unsubscribe to this list anyway ?  I have done one of those two
once, some months ago.  I can't remember for my life what I send & where,
if my life depended on it.  So I saved my Welcoming message for later use.
But what of those people who want to join this list. Where can they get the
information about how to do that.  Only by word of mouth ....  So please,
don't be rude to people who aren't on the list already or have, mostly
_not_ on purpose, discarded their welcoming message.

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

1998\06\26@210840 by James Cameron

picon face
Caisson wrote:
> How many times do you ('you' ment as 'the piclist-group')
> subscribe/unsubscribe to this list anyway ?

Frequency of task is irrelevant.  Frequency of questions asking how is
relevant.

> So please, don't be rude to people who aren't on the list already or have,
> mostly _not_ on purpose, discarded their welcoming message.

Me?  I don't think I was rude.  I'll check.  I guess you mean 'all'.

Alternative suggestion; I'm on several distribution lists, and I see the
best practices and the worst.  Add a one or two line trailer to the
messages either pointing to a page explaining how to unsubscribe, or
just the instructions.  Don't use a header line "X-Unsubscribe:" because
most people don't seem to know how to check message headers.

Where would I find data for 2SK2175 MOSFET?  Is it logic level?

--
James Cameron                              (james.cameronEraseMEspam.....digital.com)
Digital Equipment Corporation (Australia) Pty. Ltd. A.C.N. 000 446 800

1998\06\29@070450 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: James Cameron <EraseMEjames.cameronspamDIGITAL.COM>
> Aan: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST [admin; suggest change]
> Datum: zaterdag 27 juni 1998 2:11
>
> Caisson wrote:
> > How many times do you ('you' ment as 'the piclist-group')
> > subscribe/unsubscribe to this list anyway ?
>
> Frequency of task is irrelevant.  Frequency of questions asking how is
> relevant.

Frequency of question can be irritating. Absense of information is
relevant. (it's not the same person asking the same question over and over
..)

> > So please, don't be rude to people who aren't on the list already or
have,
> > mostly _not_ on purpose, discarded their welcoming message.
>
> Me?  I don't think I was rude.  I'll check.  I guess you mean 'all'.

As explicitily said above : ('you' ment as 'the piclist-group').

Think about this : You are a newling somewhere and you ask some of the
other people (who are already the for some time) where you can take a
leak.You don't get any answer.  Would you think that is rude ?   Would you
think it is rude to get an answer like 'the guys before you asked the same
question, I don't like to tell you (again)' ?

> Alternative suggestion; I'm on several distribution lists, and I see the
> best practices and the worst.  Add a one or two line trailer to the
> messages either pointing to a page explaining how to unsubscribe, or
> just the instructions.  Don't use a header line "X-Unsubscribe:" because
> most people don't seem to know how to check message headers.

Maybe a un/subscription should be done by way of the subject-line ?  Or
maybe a un/subscription message could be send to anyone who sends a message
with less than a few (maybe 2) lines ?

> Where would I find data for 2SK2175 MOSFET?  Is it logic level?

Can't answer that one :-)

> --
> James Cameron                              (RemoveMEjames.cameronspam_OUTspamKILLspamdigital.com)
> Digital Equipment Corporation (Australia) Pty. Ltd. A.C.N. 000 446 800

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser


'[ADMIN] Messages Resent'
1999\07\26@123927 by Greg Wiley
picon face
Just a heads-up to the list admins.

Several of my older messages (and some
responses from others) were re-sent over
the weekend.

 -greg

1999\07\26@134725 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
It's annoying, and it'll stop eventually.  Frustrating, though.  I wish
I knew what exectly was causing this (Know the rough cause but not the
details.)

 Mark

Greg Wiley wrote:
>
> Just a heads-up to the list admins.
>
> Several of my older messages (and some
> responses from others) were re-sent over
> the weekend.
>
>   -greg


'[ADMIN] PICList Content'
1999\09\28@211648 by Eric Oliver
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face
Friends,

I've been following the debate regarding OT messages. In fact, I've been
terribly busy of late and the debate is the only thread I've been watching.
Why ? Because I care what happens to the PICLIST.  I even considered
unsubscribing to eliminate the traffic in my inbox, but can't bear to do so.
I won't always be this busy, and I hope to return to a list that is the same
as when I left it.

We live in an imperfect world.  This list is comprised of over 1800 members
at last count. On any given day, you can almost gaurantee that someone will
mess up.  Forget to put [OT] on the subject, flame because they're having a
bad day, reply publicly when they intended to reply privately, and the list
goes on.  This is life.

As humans, we seem to be driven by the need to fix things.  Trouble is,
sometimes "broken" is a matter of opinion.  I agree that the PICLIST is not
perfect and there are messages that _I_ find annoying or unnecessary too.
Know what ? I delete them. BOOM ! 1/2 second later, they're gone.

What really disturbs me is that, if we "fix" the PICLIST, we will break it.
Possibly permanently.  As an analogy, consider well meaning public
officials. How many times have we all seen this ?  A leader, or group,
perceives there is a problem in our society. So they fix it.  Trouble is,
the "fix" produces undesirable ramifications. Possibly worse than the
original problem. Rather than admit that they made a mistake, they simply
attempt to fix the new problems. Before long, they have destroyed or
rendered what they were trying to fix as useless.

Creating a newsgroup, moderating the list, or splitting the list up all will
produce negative side effects.  I'm willing to bet on it.  Valuable members
will leave the list. Valuable content will go unpublished.

So I say again. Tolerance and self restraint will cure this list. And only
you can make it happen.

P.S. Mark, you once suggested using topics like the one in my subject line
to aid in filtering. Only problem is, there's never been any official
guidlines.  If you could post some guidlines, I'll be more than happy to
follow them.

Eric

1999\09\28@214007 by Sean H. Breheny

face picon face
AMEN! I think we would all be happier if we exercised the delete key more
often when there is excess content that we don't want to read! I agree,that
there should be fewer WAY-OT messages,but I do not think that any radical
solution will produce a better situation than we have.

In addition, I want to BEG Bob and Tjaart not to leave the list. I have
found both of them very helpful and I feel that the piclist would not BE
the same if they leave.

Sean


At 07:48 PM 9/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Friends,
>
>I've been following the debate regarding OT messages. In fact, I've been
>terribly busy of late and the debate is the only thread I've been watching.
>Why ? Because I care what happens to the PICLIST.  I even considered
[SNIP]
|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
RemoveMEshb7TakeThisOuTspamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\09\28@215521 by Peter van Hoof

flavicon
face
This list is already (on a small scale) moderated.
Didn't it surprise you that, on the last extremely off topic and religious
topic there where NO REPLY'S , at least not on the list!

(I WAS ONE OF THE POSTER'S OF A REPLY)

Peter


> Creating a newsgroup, moderating the list, or splitting the list
> up all will
> produce negative side effects.  I'm willing to bet on it.
> Valuable members
> will leave the list. Valuable content will go unpublished.

1999\09\28@235702 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
At 09:53 PM 9/28/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>This list is already (on a small scale) moderated.
>Didn't it surprise you that, on the last extremely off topic and religious
>topic there where NO REPLY'S , at least not on the list!

Maybe not after a while, but early on there were.  I got several of them,
to which I always replied private.

Andy

==================================================================
Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------
EraseMEandyspamspamspamBeGonerc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
RemoveMEandyKILLspamspammontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\09\29@011033 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Nope;  Moderation specifically means that each & every message anyone
posts to the list, has to be approved by a moderator before any other
PICList members view it.

Think of it like, "Every message starts off deleted, unless one of the
moderators feels like undeleting it."

You'd know how busy the moderators were by how many messages they
released daily, in bursts when they were available online, and the huge
lags when they were busy.  It'd take about 10 people to make it work,
I'd guess?

Moderation is like customs:  An impassable choke point.  Not what *I*
want here <G>

What we have is a list full of people who (mostly) exercise
SELF-control, more or less <G>, and 2 admins who have the ability to
read all messages posted to the list eventually, and delete users who go
way out of line (I think I've deleted 2 whole users for that, maybe 3?)
- OTOH, I've deleted about 80 users at their request, when their ISP
changed (for example, userSTOPspamspamspam_OUTisp1.com suddenly had to re-subscribe to
spamBeGoneuserSTOPspamspamEraseMEnewmail.isp1a.com due to a merger, etc. - or they changed ISP's due
to an ISP closing or changing jobs - etc.)  Maybe more 'n 80;  With 2
lists, it'd be 150 deletions, give or take.  (Wild Guesses, I can go
count but'd rather not!)

 Mark

Peter van Hoof wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\09\29@055201 by Peter van Hoof

flavicon
face
Ok , then let's call the beastie by it's real name
My message was censored.

I think my reply was short, to the point, and reasonably courteous and for
the ones interested I can send it to you.

The original I replied to is archived on
www.infosite.com/%7Ejkeyzer/piclist/1999/Aug/2051.html
You will find a link to my reply , but not find the reply itself, nor any
other reply's to this very unacceptable post (to 92.4 percent of readers
anyway)

I know my message went out to the list, because I had a reply to it, not
from anyone reading the Piclist or the archive , but from the poster of the
original. I guess it was forwarded by one of the
censors/moderators/whateveryoucallit's.

And don't get me wrong, I do understand why it was done. The noise level
would have been high. Accept that this was probably the best way to deal
with this.

I wonder if there where others that posted to this thread.


Reply's in private please, enough said already.


Peter


> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\29@074040 by Max Toole

picon face
In a message dated 9/28/99 9:17:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
KILLspamericspamBeGonespamKEDCOENT.COM writes:

> Friends,
>
>  I've been following the debate regarding OT messages. In fact, I've been
>  terribly busy of late and the debate is the only thread I've been watching.
>  Why ? Because I care what happens to the PICLIST.  I even considered
>  unsubscribing to eliminate the traffic in my inbox, but can't bear to do
so.
>  I won't always be this busy, and I hope to return to a list that is the
same
{Quote hidden}

will
{Quote hidden}

Well said, Eric.  I agree whole heartedly.

By the way, are you in politics?  If not, maybe you should be.  I just might
vote for you  :-)

Max

1999\09\30@190721 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Far as I know, the *list* echoed your message - you're talking about
censorship of the ARCHIVE, not the list - Infosite may've censored your
message;  The PICList admins have little say over Infosite's behavior,
AFAIK.  Bet it's still in my inbox here.

 Mark

Peter van Hoof wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > {Original Message removed}


'[OT][ADMIN] RE: NOT OFF TOPIC: List usage etc, ano'
1999\10\11@112653 by eplus1
flavicon
face
Wow! Yet another moderator on the PICLIST... that job must pay really well.
Where can I apply? <GRIN>

If you want to start such a list, do so. If people want to use it they will.
My guess is that if we can't even get people to mark post (like yours) not
related to PIC engineering with [OT] or [ADMIN], how are you going to get
them to enter an entire email address in place of the one that "reply-to"
puts in the To... field?

And yes it is OFF TOPIC IMH(-not)O. <SAD GRIN> Mark (who is BTY one of only
2 people who have any real power to moderate this list) has asked in the
past that messages related to the PICLIST but not to PICs be marked [ADMIN].
I (and others) feel that adding an [OT] to that will help people filter out
the non-engineering posts. <HOPEFULL GRIN>

Thanks. And if you start the offtoPIClist, I will try to use it.

James Newton EraseMEjamesnewtonspamEraseMEgeocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593)
webmaster http://techref.homepage.com NOW OPEN TO NON-MEMBERS!
Members: Add your own private/public comments/pages (TANSTAAFL web hosting)




{Original Message removed}

'[admin] Re: PICList content not as bad as it appea'
1999\10\12@142956 by William K. Borsum

flavicon
face
Greetings
If the list manager supports requiring something in brackets or the mail
gets rejected, I have absolutely NO problems supporting its use.  Just need
to regularly publish guidelines for the newbies and for the regulars who
forget--I just found out about the suggested use of [admin] for list
management comments such as this.  When I signed on, there was NO
information provided on suggested list usage--just sort of had to figure
out things as I went along.

Obvious problem are people who won't use the key words in brackets
according to the guideline conventions--

I would like to chat with Mark or Jory a bit about this off-list if
possible--con su permisso.

Kelly




At 10:52 AM 10/12/99 -0300, you wrote:
>Mark,
>
>I like this. You have to FORCE people into using proper categories markers
>in the subject line. Only tell us WHEN this starts working...
>
>Regards,
>Andres Tarzia
>Technology Consultant, SMART S.A.
>e-mail: @spam@atarzia@spam@spamspam_OUTsmart.com.ar
>
>{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] PICList content not as bad as it appears -'
1999\10\12@165632 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
>Hey Mark, what is the real possibilities to implement a customized
>profile at the listserver for the list members? So one can program not
>to receive [Fluff] messages? and so on...  I think this should be a real
>"boost", since it saves traffic time at the listserv and solve forever
>this "mail filters" at member's mail engines.
>
>Wagner

Very good idea =)
then we can select what to not to have at all,
filter it in our mail programs
or looking manually.

Saving internet connection time money too :)

I also like Kelly«s idea about information message.
It have also been mentionned before, an idea about regularly sending out info to subscribers.
Or maybe the server just append an URL like http://www.piclistrules.com to end of each sent message.

my 5 oere
/Morgan
Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN
  tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -70331,   spamBeGonemrtspamKILLspaminame.com

'[admin] Re: PICList content not as bad as it appea'
1999\10\12@184637 by Simon Redwood

flavicon
picon face
Reply To: "Simon Redwood" <.....spredwoodspam_OUTspamsri-net.demon.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 927


Kelly wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Yeah fine, I have no problems with using the 'guideline conventions' if I
knew what they were that is.  I'm pretty new to the list, and have really
only noticed OT - which I presume if "OFF-TOPIC"
--
Regards,
Simon

{ ICQ#:         12229096                        }
{ Email:        TakeThisOuTspredwood.....spamTakeThisOuTsri-net.demon.co.uk   }
{ Internet:     http://www.sri-net.demon.co.uk         }

'[PIC][admin][OT][TECH][FLUFF][WHINE]and 18F87x ava'
1999\10\13@123452 by mjurras

picon face
How about we add [WHINE] to the headers for all you guys who constantly bitch ab
out how the list
isn't formatted exactly to you specific wants for efficient reading. This will g
ive you something
to look forward to reading.

Or, maybe you could just learn to deal with it. It isn't that hard. If you can't
go to onelist.com
and start your own.


Now for some real content. I am starting a new design and have been noticing pos
ts about the lack
of availability of the 16F87x. Digikey also shows naught available. Should I lea
ve my ICD in the
box and use an available part or is the 16F87x going to be available 1Q 2000?

- -Mark
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

1999\10\13@185355 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Mark Jurras wrote:

> Should I leave my ICD in the box and use an available part or is the 16F87x go
ing to be > available 1Q 2000?

That's probably where all the stocks of F87X chips have gone. Into the
Microchip ICD's :-)

--
Best regards

Tony

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email TakeThisOuTsalesKILLspamspamspampicnpoke.com


'[Admin] PICList Administrativa'
1999\11\06@231059 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address book
etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
thought <G>

 Mark

1999\11\07@010726 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Interesting point is that Netscape defaults to send in HTML format... as
if everyone would choose to use that way.

On Netscape:
To change it, on the main MAIL screen, go to EDIT menu, Preferences,
Mail & Newsgroup, Formating, and at MESSAGE FORMATING, select the "Use
Plain Text Editor to Compose Messages".  Then at the block below, click
"Ask me what to do if the message is in HTML format, otherwise send
plain text".  Note that these changes would only being in effect at the
*next* email you send.

Or, if you want to leave it in HTML settings (only you would know the
reason, because I don't), you can temporarily set NO HTML (plain text)
for that particular message: While composing messages, you can click
OPTIONS menu and select "Plain Text Only".

Now no more excuses why still sending in HTML under Netscape... :)

Wagner Lipnharski
Free Electronics Classifieds:  http://www.ustr.net/classifieds.shtml

Mark Willis wrote:
>
> Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
> the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
> others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
> fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
> HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address
book
> etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
> thought <G>
>
>   Mark

1999\11\07@024645 by William J. Kitchen

flavicon
face
On 6 Nov 99, at 20:08, Mark Willis wrote:

> Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
> the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
> others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
> fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
> HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address book
> etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
> thought <G>
>
>   Mark
>

What is the <G> tag supposed to do?  It seems to be incompatible with
my mail reader's implementation of HTML. ;)


---
                                       Peace,
                                       William Kitchen
The future is ours to create.

1999\11\07@034821 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
William J. Kitchen wrote:
{Quote hidden}

The answer is, that it stands for, "Get a Rope!"  <VBEG>

 Mark

'[Admin] PICList I/O Port addressing lesson #1'
1999\11\08@204631 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Folks, the PICList has 3 "I/O Ports".  Seems I need to remind some
people how they're used.

* Posting messages to the "PICList Mail Distribution port", at
<.....PICListspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, causes that message to be distributed to all
1800+ members of the PICList  (Those who don't have NoMail set),  who
then read your post and make snide comments if you posted to the wrong
address.

* Posting messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
<RemoveMEPICList-RequestspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, causes that message to be distributed
to all admins of the PICList  {Jory + Myself, right now}, who then read
your post & try to help.

* Posting messages to the "PICList Command Input Port", at
<spamBeGoneLISTSERV@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, causes that message to be treated as a
command by the listserve software, THIS and ONLY THIS is the address to
send Unsubscribe requests, Set NoMail requests, and so forth.  The
listserve software ONLY listens here for commands, you can send them to
those other "ports" all you want, and all you'll get is a copy back from
the machine, telling you you've made a mistake.

Same as on a PIC chip, using the wrong port for the wrong purpose may
result in unintended consequences, like annoyed list neighbors or
flustrated admins.

The ListServe machine is even simpler than ANY PIC;  It doesn't take all
that much learning to add the capability to handle these 3 I/O ports and
to learn the few commands that the third port takes, especially compared
to the relatively huge complexity that the simplest PIC chip poses by
comparison! <G>

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

1999\11\08@211211 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> Folks, the PICList has 3 "I/O Ports".  Seems I need to remind some
> people how they're used.

Do you have to keep track of which bank you're in when you access them?
:)

1999\11\08@211619 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Dave VanHorn wrote:
>
> > Folks, the PICList has 3 "I/O Ports".  Seems I need to remind some
> > people how they're used.
>
> Do you have to keep track of which bank you're in when you access them?
> :)

Not even that!  (Besides, the last time I was coding in a bank, the
security guy came over & asked me to move along, pronto! <G>)

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

1999\11\08@211831 by Nick Taylor

picon face
Dave VanHorn wrote:
>
> > Folks, the PICList has 3 "I/O Ports".  Seems I need to remind some
> > people how they're used.
>
> Do you have to keep track of which bank you're in when you access them?
> :)

Not if you're on the "Dark Side"! <G>

1999\11\08@212700 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> Not even that!  (Besides, the last time I was coding in a bank, the
> security guy came over & asked me to move along, pronto! <G>)


I've worked in the room across the hallway from where visa loads it's
encryption keys. :)
They didn't bother me, I was just photographing the guts of a competitor's
prototype.

1999\11\08@212713 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Make sure that after you've robbed the first bank, you "switch banks before
accessing the contents of the the register" <VBEG>

Sean

At 06:15 PM 11/8/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Not even that!  (Besides, the last time I was coding in a bank, the
>security guy came over & asked me to move along, pronto! <G>)
>
>  Mark
>
>--
>I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.
>
|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
TakeThisOuTshb7spamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\11\08@212721 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> Not if you're on the "Dark Side"! <G>

VBG

'[Admin] PICList Administrativa'
1999\11\09@004842 by Alfred Siu

flavicon
face
part 0 842 bytes content-type:text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; (decoded 7bit)

Thanks.


Alf

Mark Willis wrote:

> Folks, please refrain from HTML posts on the PICList;  Many people on
> the list cannot read your posts (their browser won't READ HTML!), and
> others such as myself end up squinting to try to read 2-point micro
> fonts that are essentially unreadable.  Most browsers that CAN send
> HTML, can be configured to send text-only messages in your address book
> etc., HTML's for web pages, not really for text e-mail, I've always
> thought <G>
>
>   Mark

Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
name="baodiao.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Alfred Siu
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename="baodiao.vcf"

Attachment converted: wonderland:baodiao.vcf (TEXT/CSOm) (0000F447)

'[ADMIN] Weird problems subscribing, please help'
1999\11\11@045815 by Sten Dahlgren

flavicon
face
Hello !

I'm about to switch my subscribtion over to my home computer/ISP
but has some serious problems.
When i try to subscribe from my home ISP i don't get any replys
no nothing, i have tried to send info and help requests to but
no response at all. From work i tried the change command to move
it over and then i get a mail sent to home that i should reply
with an "ok #######" message and then i get a response to home with
a new request to send an ok but with another number. At the same time
i get a reply to work with a comment like this.

Your  request cannot  be processed  because the  confirmation came
from
stdaEraseMEspamD1O41.TELIA.COM rather  than RemoveMEsten.dahlgrenEraseMEspamspam_OUTTELIA.COM.  For
security
reasons, the confirmation for a change of address must come from the
new
address. A new confirmation request is being sent.

At home i'm logged in as stda. The machine name D1041 is something my
ISP has invented. Probably DHCP thing.


Any help needed.

regards
/Sten

1999\11\11@054608 by paulb

flavicon
face
Sten Dahlgren wrote:

> The machine name D1041 is something my ISP has invented.
> Probably DHCP thing.

 DHCP?  Sounds nasty!  Shouldn't generally affect e-mail but...
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\11\11@062447 by Tim Hamel

picon face
In a message dated 11/11/99 2:47:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
@spam@paulbRemoveMEspamEraseMEMIDCOAST.COM.AU writes:

>  DHCP?  Sounds nasty!  Shouldn't generally affect e-mail but...

DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol) is completely irrelevant to the
problem here. DHCP has to do with dynamic IP addy assignments. What his
problem could be are his mail program settings. Either that or SMTP/POP
server problems...
Sheesh, it's been a LONG time since I've posted, and when I do, it's
completely OT, arrrggghh!


Regards,

Tim Hamel

1999\11\11@123832 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Sten Dahlgren wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Oh, Boy, another problem to figure out & solve here <G>

Sten, I'll help you out, this could be just a configuration problem from
your home computer, I maye have to issue commands FOR you (been MEANING
to read that section of the new software's manual, now I'll get it
done!  <G>)

Please send an e-mail to me, off-list, from your HOME and from your WORK
addresses, maybe pass the messages you're getting along by forwarding.
I need to see your headers, I think, from the home machine (it's
possible something's not set right there, it's possible I've misled
myself here, too <G>)

(BTW, the 'Ideal' e-mail address for "Help!" requests like this is the
"PICList Admins Helpline" address, <spamBeGonePICList-RequestEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>.
But, then, Paul and Tim don't get to tease you <G>)

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

'[ADMIN] Problems on the PICList'
1999\11\18@185017 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Known problem, (Thanks, Wagner, for asking), someone's mail server is
bouncing PICList messages back to the PICList, I asked them to fix it
earlier today, am offline, will get back on soon.  If needed, will drop
the person but hoping that's not necessary!

I expect a LOT of people are getting these =(

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
{Quote hidden}

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

'[ADMIN] Thought on header revision and format'
1999\11\20@144016 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
One thing I've been thinking about on headers is to suggest we try to
put [OT] at the END of subject lines, when people add it to a subject
line of a post they think's OT for the list;

The reason I suggest this is that my browser sorts subjects
alphabetically, not by intent of the sender <G>;  Say we have 3 posts,
Subject:  ABC
Subject:  Re: ABC [OT]
Subject:  Re: ABC [OT] [way, way OT]
Subject:  Re: [OT] ABC

{The 3rd post is how I'd let filterers filter, and acknowledge that
something is way OT for us humans, BTW.}  The last post alpha sorts WAY
far away above the other 3 posts, separating it and making the
conversation diverge worse than it already will, this being the PICList
<G>

Something to consider for the FAQs; this might make tracking the
subjects easier for most people, and filtering should still work well
enough.  (Set your filter to "Contains" instead of "Begins with" <G>)
It's a convenience for others, they can figure out what posts are about
what subject{s} <G>

Also, for the same "convenience of others" reasons, PLEASE, let's not
see any header lines like these:
Subject:  SV: ABC [OT]  {Default list language is English, folks <G>}
Subject:  FWD: Re: ABC [OT]
Subject:  Re: [OT] Re: ABC
Subject:  Re: Re: Re: SV: ABC [OT]  {ONE 'Re:' suffices!}
Subject:  Re: ABC [OT}  {Ack!}
Subject:  Re: [OT, Way OT] ABC

Also, James Newton now joins us as an Admin, we'll split duties up &
make things work <G>

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

1999\11\21@153554 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Mark, I like the idea. I use Eudora and it's normally `trivial' to
sort and filter messages but the current scheme scatters the same
subject all over the place when I sort by subject. Another problem is
folks that decide to do a "<subject> was <subject>"... On occasion,
I've been tempted to post my list of `gripes' but so far I've held
back. I assume anything with "[ADMIN]" is reserved for Jory, you, and
now, James.

  And a note to James: Congrats, James. It takes a brave man to
sacrifice family, sleep, and sanity ;-)

  - Tom

At 11:39 AM 11/20/99 -0800, Mark Willis wrote:
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

'[ADMIN] notice - additional list owner and web pag'
1999\11\22@103914 by eplus1

flavicon
face
You think Jory and Mark saw that big red "S" on my forehead? <GRIN> Feel
free to send any advice on sanity maintenance my way, and don't expect too
much... I don't intend to take more than occasional action beyond sending
friendly reminders to people to set plain text and MARK OT's with [OT]. BTW
my definition of OT is something that is not likely to be of interest to a
designer, hobbyist or engineer who commonly uses PICs. So don't feel you
have to mention a PIC in the post. Just don't make jokes, topical
conversation, physics discussions etc... without an [OT] and please... don't
make political or religious comments at all except in a signature line.

I'm happy that http://www.piclist.com has a home (and I hope to make it a better
home with your help). I'd like to suggest that regular posters add the URL
to their signature lines so that newbies will have some idea where to go for
sub/unsub instructions, FAQ's and guidelines. Note that the PICList FAQ is
editable by you! Just fill out the form at the techref homepage and add your
comments etc... as you feel necessary.

James Newton RemoveMEjamesnewton@spam@spamspamBeGonegeocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593
http://techref.homepage.com NOW OPEN (R/O) TO NON-MEMBERS!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

'Avoiding Piclist FAQs [ADMIN]'
1999\11\30@102219 by jamesnewton

picon face
Q : How do I send commands (like to subscribe/unsubscribe)?

A : To send a command, send it in the body of an email to the list server
address : .....LISTSERV@spam@spamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU For instance, to get off the list, you
send the command : SIGNOFF PICLIST to .....LISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU Sending
SIGNOFF PICLIST in the body of a post to the PICLIST@... address will result
in about 1500 people being notified that you want to leave the PICList and
the emails will keep right on coming.

To help avoid this in the future, I'd like to suggest that regular posters
add the http://www.piclist.com link to the bottom of the post or to their
signature line. This way, people will have a ready reference to the
commands.

James Newton .....jamesnewtonSTOPspamspam@spam@geocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593
http://techref.homepage.com NOW OPEN (R/O) TO NON-MEMBERS!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTEraseMEspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Steve Tomes
Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:40 PM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:


How do I get off this list now...have been trying old meathods for 2 weeks
now...????


'[ADMIN] Question'
1999\12\07@200315 by Tony Nixon
flavicon
picon face
Sorry for the bandwidth..

Am I allowed to put the PICLIST address on PicNPoke's CD for interesting
places to visit?


[OT]

Hey Mark Willis, if your reading this...

Sorry, I missplaced your email, but the CD for your friend is on it's
way.
'First one off the press' :-)


--
Best regards

Tony

http://www.picnpoke.com
spamBeGonesalesKILLspamspam@spam@picnpoke.com

1999\12\08@004452 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
I cannot imagine it being a problem.  No problem on the CD, it'd help
those needing help (We on the list are some of us "beyond help", of
course <G>)  "Don't sell the address to SPAMmers knowingly, please" <G>

(Saw the other, great!  I saw him today, will burn some EPRoms for him &
get all to him soon, his motherboards need newer firmware; where can I
find a 27C1000-15 or a 27C010A-15 tomorrow? <G>  His Pentium momboard
has the weirdest EPRom/EEProm/Flash ROM markings I've seen lately, HT
M12587 J9710, he tends to get *weird* hardware but this should also be a
27C010A-15 or the like?!  I'll get that to him.)

 Mark

Tony Nixon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

1999\12\08@102654 by jamesnewton

picon face
Maybe it would be a good idea to list the PIC FAQ page as a starting point
so that the normal newbie questions of how to sub and unsub and "why don't I
see my own posts" etc... can be answered along with sneaking in some
etiquette training....

http://www.piclist.com

James Newton spamBeGonejamesnewton@spam@spamgeocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] Question [OT]'
1999\12\09@160337 by Dmitry Kiryashov

flavicon
face
Hi James.

As matter is fact in will not work. ;) It is obvious thing that after
you've finished that
titanic work and will describe detaily everything you'll hear one person
question about
"Hey how this list works , tell me please, because I unable to RTFM :)
Because it is so hard to read subscribe confirmation message and save it
for future unsub...

WBR Dmitry.

> Maybe it would be a good idea to list the PIC FAQ page as a starting point so
that the
> normal newbie questions of how to sub and unsub and "why don't I see my own po
sts"
> etc... can be answered along with sneaking in some etiquette training....
> http://www.piclist.com

1999\12\10@115648 by jamesnewton

picon face
Oh, I know we will never be rid of the RTFM impaired... Perfection is beyond
our reach but (I think) we can and should still try for it. There are
degrees of RTFM impairment. By not having a quick link to an FAQ site, we
fail to help the mildly impaired. Baby with bathwater etc...

I'm working on an autoresponder for that sort of thing. Not to actually
unsubscribe people based on PICList posts with "unsubscribble" in the body
but rather to send a FAQ item to them (not the list). Its a very tricky rule
to build. "only if 99% of the message is the request to unsubscribe" etc...
and not to the reply to address (the list) but rather to the senders
address. Outlook is not cooperating so I'm testing a small email server to
use in its place. We will see....

Advice appreciated.

James Newton RemoveMEjamesnewtonEraseMEspamKILLspamgeocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593
http://techref.homepage.com NOW OPEN (R/O) TO NON-MEMBERS!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

'Advertising on the PICList [ADMIN]'
1999\12\20@115816 by PICLIST-request

flavicon
face
A few words about advertising on the PICList from the owner Jory, and the
admin.'s, Mark and James:

SOLVING PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PRODUCT
:> Great! Responding to a question or a request for help with an
advertisement for your product which is a solution to the original post is
no problem. That type of advertising is "a good thing" as it A) solves the
posters problem B) encourages PIC related businesses C) Keeps people who do
PICs for a living involved in the list. D) sometimes it triggers a "hey, I
can do that for a lot less" response that leads to a healthy competition for
the advertisers.

Don, Tony, Myke and others have been called on the carpet for advertising
before and list members have resoundingly stood up for them.

Before you buy anything, don't be afraid to ask others on the list for
confirmation that a product recommended by the mfg. as a solution to your
problem is a good choice. List members will not hesitate to speak up <GRIN>
and the manufacturers are expected to be thick skinned.

SIGNATURE LINES
:) Good: Adding a line or two to your signature (and the "PIC/PICList FAQ:
http://www.piclist.com " line doesn't count! <GRIN>) about what you do, buy,
sell or believe in is also no problem. The only possible exceptions are
political and/or religious flame starters and spiteful messages.

PRODUCT NEWS
:| Maybe: Posting News or information about your product (unsolicited) to
the list. Well... ok... *IF* its a product that people on the PICList will
really use. The only trick is that in the eyes of the poster, the fact that
his new hydroponic plant management system has a PIC somewhere in it
qualifies it for the PICList even though he hasn't published a schematic,
code or even any description of the design process and its never been
mentioned on the list before. On the other hand, if the product actually A)
does something to a PIC or for a PIC (like a programmer or a simulator
etc...) B) Uses a PIC and has engineering details published or C) was
designed with help from the list (e.g. we all heard about the problems and
solutions involved in the making of it), we don't see any problem.

THE FINAL WORD
:{ Listen: The final judgement of what is appropriate is left in the hands
of the PICList administrators, if *they* feel a post is inappropriate, they
WILL take action with at least a warning, followed by removal and or barring
the offender from the list, at their option, on this as in any
transgression.

'"unsubscribe" [ADMIN]'
1999\12\20@123257 by J Borgaard

flavicon
face
Many lists have found the easy way to solve this - add a one or two-line
trailer to every post with FAQ/unsub/archive links/instructions. I haven't
seen list software yet that can't be made to do this as it's very common and
a useful tool for everyone.

JB
> {Original Message removed}

1999\12\20@142449 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Definitely can do that here;  Of course, the posters who don't trim the
repeated cascade of PICList FAQ references off the bottom of their
posts, would tend to get flamed eventually for not doing so;  Thinking
about it, though, there are frequent enough posts about how to unsub
here, and, we all joined the list with the quite explicit understanding
that we were to keep the "Welcome!" post we were sent when we joined,
that told us how to unsubscribe, as we might want to read it some day -
someone who WANTS to be personally responsible, can be and will be.
Those few who choose NOT to honor the (hard to enforce) agreement they
joined this list on, though, can distract the rest of us from being
productive.

(I am *not* including the "Help - my ISP changed names overnight, what
do I do!" problems, here - Those happen, and, if you didn't know in
advance to send the right command to the listserve, you're stuck with
having an admin. send a change command in for you.  It's the "Oh, I'm
still on the list, I'll send another Unsubscribble command, my 10th, why
doesn't the dang list Do What I Want?", non-manual reading folks that
flustrate me.)

Some people will use a ladder with the bottom set on an ice patch, then
sue the manufacturer for not having a sticker suggesting you not do
that, then go on to do the same thing again (ignoring that sticker) and
sue again - taking no personal responsibility, though.  Those, it's just
easier to either ignore, or to just delete, I'm not sure which is
better.

I deleted Joe, so we can move on here.

I've seen posts asking to unsub on another list I'm on which has the
footer saying, "Want to subscribe/unsubscribe?  Jump to
http://blah.blah".  Simply Amazing, to me;  How can they figure out how
to open the 'Fridge to eat?  <G>  These people can read a PIC Datasheet
and make sense of it?  <G>

(Yeah, I'm grumpy, have an appointment I forgot in a couple hours, it's
damn inconvenient!  Arrgh.  ANYTHING but a dental appointment, today!
I'll be decked all day, drat.)

 Mark

J Borgaard wrote:
>
> Many lists have found the easy way to solve this - add a one or two-line
> trailer to every post with FAQ/unsub/archive links/instructions. I haven't
> seen list software yet that can't be made to do this as it's very common and
> a useful tool for everyone.
>
> JB
> > {Original Message removed}

'[Admin] For anyone moving from one ISP to another.'
1999\12\21@013637 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
If you're moving and you know it in advance, here's the command to use
to "transfer" your PICList subscription when ready, use this method;
>From your old account;  Send the command

Change PICList spamBeGonenew_usernamespam_OUTspamRemoveMEnew_isp.tld

to the good ol' PICList List Server Command Port Address,
<.....LISTSERVspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, that'll transfer you <G>

(Pushed this to someone needing it, decided, why not post it list-wide,
just in case it helps someone else.  James, feel free to toss that in
the FAQ <G>)

If it's too late (which happens!), just ask me & I'll issue it
"virtually" from your old account;  the one advantage of doing this is
that your account options don't get forgotten.

It's not in the manuals I have, but Info RefCard issued to the listserv
commands address gets you enough info to "Fake" this <G>

 Mark



--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'[OT][JOKE][L.S.M.F.T.][Ornaments][ADMIN]'
1999\12\22@210656 by Nick Taylor

picon face
Is there not a PIClist rule concerning the oversampling of the
sacramental wine?

Thomas McGahee wrote:
>
> Remarks intersperesed below within text...
>
> {Original Message removed}

1999\12\23@134420 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Um, yeah, but it's actually sacrificial wine, not sacramental.  One must
sacrifice a wine before posting to the list...

-Adam

Nick Taylor wrote:
>
> Is there not a PIClist rule concerning the oversampling of the
> sacramental wine?
>


'[ADMIN] PICLIST FAQ'
2000\01\10@103257 by PICLIST-request
flavicon
face
WELCOME TO THE PICLIST FAQ

The PICList is a collection of people interested in the Microchip PIC
processor who have requested that email sent to the PICList email address be
forwarded to them.

There are about 1800 people subscribed to the PICList (as of 19990110) so
sending a post to the PICList results in a lot of people spending the time
required to read your message or question. They would all appreciate it if
you would check the PIC FAQ and search the Archives before posting a
question.

Many of them enjoy reading posts on topics other than the PIC but that may
be interesting to PICers (engineering, ideas, technical jokes, etc...) but
many others do not wish to spend the time required to read these off-topic
posts. They would appreciate it if you would put the text [TO] at the end of
the subject line of your post so that they know its not about PICs. If you
are replying to a post that is not about PICs and notice that it is not
marked [TO], please edit the subject line to add that flag.

Q : How do I send messages to the list
A : Step by step:

First, you check the PIC FAQ.  and search the Archives. to get an instant
answer without wasting anyone's time.
http://www.infosite.com/~jkeyzer/piclist/index.html with older posts at
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/

Second, you must be subscribed to the list to post to the list and you must
send from the email address you subscribed from. some email clients will
allow you to click on the following link:
LISTSERVspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SUB+PICLIST

Third you must compose a message to EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamSTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
that will elicit help.
If its not about PICs directly, that's ok, post it anyway but put [TO] at
the end of the subject line.
The subject should be as complete a description of the problem as is
possible in 60 characters or so. Compress and distill.

The body should:
- be in plain text, not HTML.
- be a detailed description of the problem in as few words as possible.
If you have a web page, post a verbose description of the problem to it and
put the full URL of that page in your post (include the ) along with
a summary of the problem.
- include what you are trying to do (overall), what you expected to have
happen at this point, what you are seeing, and how you are seeing it (what
test equipment, etc...)
- Include specific part numbers, code snippets (not the full source,
please), and signal descriptions.

Finally, read your message over again, check the subject line and press
send.
You will not see your message echoed on the PIClist, and it may take more
than a day before anyone responds since most people only read their PICList
mail once a day and they are all over the world. If no one responds after a
week, read the rest of this page,  especially the list admin Mini-FAQ,
general list guidelines,  rethink your post and add a "Nobody responded to
my last post, what am I doing wrong?" to the end and send it again.

Q : How do I send commands (like to subscribe/unsubscribe)?
A : To send a command, send it in the body of an email to the list server
address :
spamBeGoneLISTSERVspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
For instance, to get off the list, you send the command :
SIGNOFF PICLIST to RemoveMELISTSERVspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
LISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SIGNOFF+PICLIST> Sending SIGNOFF PICLIST in the body of a post to the PICLIST@... address
will result in about 1800 people being notified that you want to leave the
PICList and the emails will keep right on coming.

Q : Where must the command be in my email?
A : In the message body. The subject line is ignored.

Q : What commands are available ?
A : List of ListServer commands

Q: Is the list moderated, how do I contact the moderators,  and what are the
guidelines?
A: The list is administered, not moderated by Mark Willis, James Newton and
Jory Bell (who setup and controls the list). Posting messages to the
"PICList Administration Port", at
spam_OUTPICList-Requestspam_OUTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes
that message to be distributed to all admins who then read your post & try
to help. They have now published guidelines (Including Marks new Mini-FAQ)
at this site.
http://www.piclist.com
Admin's guide the list by asking that people mark off topic messages with
[TO] in the subject line (not to, <to>, {TO] or off topic) and PICLIST
related but not PIC related messages with [Admin] so that people who do not
wish to read these postings can filter them out via their email programs.
Non-PIC related threads are common and the volume of messages can be several
hundred per week. Several respected, valuable, and otherwise caring people
have, in the past, unsubscribed due to a temporary peak in the volume of
fluff and bad attitudes. When bickering and non-technical posts reach a
fever pitch, James, Mark and even Jory have been known to step in and put a
stop to it by warning people and throwing them off the list. If you want to
be accepted and get the most help, please read some general list guidelines.
Text only posts (no HTML email) are preferred, subject not directly related
to the PIC should be marked with [TO] at the end of the subject line, and
messages of hatred or intolerance will get you kicked off the list, period.
Please forward suggestion or complaints about the list to the list admins at
PICList-Requestspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
RemoveMEPICList-RequestKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
rather than to all the list members. Product information about your PIC
related product is fine, but blatant spam is not. Advertise your company,
product or site in a one or two line addition to your signature at the
bottom of your posts.

Q. Is the PICList a good place to ask for / post cracks for PIC related
software?
A. Remember that the PICList is a public forum. Asking for a crack will
typically get you nothing but advice to pay for what you get. In the past,
cracks posted to the list have evoked mixed responses ranging from offlist
threats, to onlist thanks and have started some flame threads about hacking
and cracking and software licenses and prices in general which always end up
being a waste of bandwidth. List members have been known to forward cracking
related threads to the maker of the product being cracked with full header
information (including your email address, and who your ISP is).

We can't stop people from posting things that are not legal. We do not
approve of software piracy and will remove from the list individuals who
show a flagrant disregard for the rights (and efforts) of others. We will
forcibly kill flame threads that have no bearing on PICs and are not
appropriate to the list.

Jory says: "...[we can't prevent] PICList people [from pirating] software,
since that is everyone's own choice, ... i don't want to police such things,
but please keep in mind the nature of your communication, and the nature of
a public list and decide what is appropriate."

Lets keep cracking off the PICList, there are plenty of other lists for
that, and as always, please mark anything not directly related to PIC
engineering with an [TO] at the end of the subject line.


Q: Can I advertise my product on the PICList?
A: Yes and no. Read on:

SOLVING PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PRODUCT
:> Great! Responding to a question or a request for help with an
advertisement for your product which is a solution to the original post is
no problem. That type of advertising is "a good thing" as it A) solves the
posters problem B) encourages PIC related businesses C) Keeps people who do
PICs for a living involved in the list. D) sometimes it triggers a "hey, I
can do that for a lot less" response that leads to a healthy competition for
the advertisers.
Don, Tony, Myke and others have been called on the carpet for advertising
before and list members have resoundingly stood up for them.

Before you buy anything, don't be afraid to ask others on the list for
confirmation that a product recommended by the mfg. as a solution to your
problem is a good choice. List members will not hesitate to speak up <GRIN>
and the manufacturers are expected to be thick skinned.


SIGNATURE LINES
:) Good: Adding a line or two to your signature (and the "PIC/PICList FAQ:
http://www.piclist.com " line doesn't count! <GRIN>) about what you do, buy,
sell or believe in is also no problem. The only possible exceptions are
political and/or religious flame starters and spiteful messages.

PRODUCT NEWS
:| Maybe: Posting News or information about your product (unsolicited) to
the list. Well... ok... *IF* its a product that people on the PICList will
really use. The only trick is that in the eyes of the poster, the fact that
his new hydroponic plant management system has a PIC somewhere in it
qualifies it for the PICList even though he hasn't published a schematic,
code or even any description of the design process and its never been
mentioned on the list before. On the other hand, if the product actually A)
does something to a PIC or for a PIC (like a programmer or a simulator
etc...) B) Uses a PIC and has engineering details published or C) was
designed with help from the list (e.g. we all heard about the problems and
solutions involved in the making of it), we don't see any problem.

THE FINAL WORD
:{ Listen: The final judgment of what is appropriate is left in the hands of
the PICList administrators, if *they* feel a post is inappropriate, they
WILL take action with at least a warning, followed by removal and or barring
the offender from the list, at their option, on this as in any
transgression.
Q: Is the list archived?
A: in realtime at http://www.infosite.com/~jkeyzer/piclist/index.html with
older posts at http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/. The server also archives
the list - as of 4 January 2000 the server contains archives back to April
1998. To get a list of the archives send the command "index piclist" to
listservspamBeGonespam.....mitvma.mit.edu.

Q: Are these archives searchable?
A: Yes, they are. The two webpages have search engines on the page. The
direct server interface also provides search capability by email. To use the
email interface, compose a new message addressed to KILLspamlistservspam.....mitvma.mit.edu.
In the body of the message, create your search parameters like this:

search keyword in listname
where keyword is the word or words (separated by spaces) that you wish to
search for and listname would be PICList.

You can further limit the search to a specific time frame by adding the
phrase

from date1
to begin the search at date1. You can also specify an ending date by adding

to date2
The full command would then be:

search keyword in listname from date1 to date2
Two other limiters that can be used are

where subject contains text
and

where sender contains text
These limiters contain the search to messages that have certain subject
lines or were sent by specific individuals, respectively.

[Thanks to Mike Werner]

Q: Why don't I see my own posts to the PICLIST?
A: This is the default setting on the list server. To changes this so that a
copy of your post is sent back to you from the list, send the command:
SET PICLIST REP to spam_OUTLISTSERVspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get the list in "digest" format?
A: Yes. To change to digest mode, just send the command SET PICList DIGest
to RemoveMELISTSERVRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU. To get back to individual emails, send the
command SET PICList NODIGests to KILLspamLISTSERVspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get only the posts that interest me in digest form?
Q: On my slow internet connection, it takes forever to download all the
email and I'm only interested in a few anyway. How can I keep using the
list?
A: Using the Index mode of the PIC List. [thanks to Mike Werner]

First of all, you must tell the server that you want the index mode for your
subscription. To do this, send a message to LISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU with the
command "set piclist index" (without the quotes, of course) as the sole
content in the body of the message. From then on you will receive a daily
index of postings to the list, looking something like this:

Index  Date  Size Poster and subject
-----  ----  ---- ------------------
043066 10/22   18 From:    Mike Werner <RemoveMEreznaeousspamBeGonespamRemoveMEEARTHLINK.NET>
                 Subject: Re: [TO] Bullet Proof Circuit... was: Survey...
What
                          is an
Except that there would be a whole lot more entries than that. The headers
are fairly self-explanatory, but as a quick once over they are: Index is a
server assigned sequential number for reference purposes, Date is the date
the message was received by the server, Size is the number of lines in the
message not counting headers, and then Poster and Subject is just that.

To retrieve the full message, all you need do is hit reply, quote the
original message (most mailers will do that either automatically or provide
a button to do so), and then edit out the messages that you are not
interested in. Once you have done that, send the message. In a few minutes
you will receive one digest-style message containing just the messages you
wanted.

Q: I'm going on vacation / don't want to be involved in the PICList for a
while. Should I unsubscribe and then re-subscribe when I get back?
A: You can, but this will reset any configuration related to your account.
To preserve your settings, send the NOMAIL command: SET PICList NOMAIL to
KILLspamLISTSERVspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU as you leave and then send the MAIL command: SET
PICList MAIL to @spam@LISTSERVSTOPspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU when you return. Also, consider
setting digest mode (above) to continue getting PICList posts in a more
compact form.

Q: I've been on the PICList for a while and suddenly I'm not getting any of
the 50 odd messages per day that normally come in:
A: Sometimes, on the Internet (being the way it is), mail doesn't get
through for a while - it does get through eventually. Situations happen like
your mail being handed off to a machine which then gets disconnected due to
some problem, be it "backhoe fade" or a hardware crash, things usually get
fixed up in a couple days. Usually the traffic all shows up in one HUGE
clump, some hours or days later on, whenever that server gets fixed or
re-booted. It's annoying to us admins, as we have to tell the difference
between not being on the list, being on the list but set to NoMail, or the
above, or other problems that can happen. Sometimes, someone's ISP falls
onto the RBL (Realtime Black hole List - an anti-SPAM list, this happened to
MY ISP recently), or the PICList gets mistakenly ID'ed as a "SPAM" source by
someone's ISP due to all the traffic, and all PICList traffic is filtered
into the "circular binary file." Rarely, you get a fast response back, but
the mail isn't getting through, despite the options the list server's set to
looking like it should - When THAT happens, I suggest people unsub &
re-subscribe, usually that fixes things. Sometimes just setting to digest &
then regular mail a few seconds later can fix it.

The usual test I suggest is to send a "Query PICList" message to the
"PICList List Server Command Input Port" at LISTSERVspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU, if you
don't get a response back from that address in 5 minutes or less, mail's
dropping through an event horizon someplace between your ISP and the list
server, or filtering is happening, or someone's on the RBL & is being
filtered out. This is a good time to e-mail the list admins at
spamBeGonePICList-RequestspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU and let us look into it.

Q: My email address is changing. How can I forward my PICList emails?
A: If you're moving to a new ISP, you can send in the command "CHange
PICList newemailaddress@newISP", to spam_OUTLISTSERVSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU to move your
subscription.

Q: I want to post to the PICList from my home email account and from work.
When I try to post from an account from which I am not subscribed to the
PICList I get a "rejected posting" message and if I subscribe from both
email accounts, I end up with two copies of every post. What can I do?
A: Subscribe from both accounts then send the NOMAIL command from the email
address where you do not wish to receive (but do wish to send) posts.

Q: I'm having (some other) problem with the PICList
A: [There are] Multiple ways to handle any type of List problems [says Mark]

Send a "Query PICList" message, to the PICList List Server 'Command Input
port' at <RemoveMELISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, and forward the resulting e-mail you
receive in return, to an Admin. with what's wrong; This gives me more info.
Should get that response quickly, so if no response in a half hour, let me
know that you tried. If this happens, it's a router problem. If you send
such a message & get a delivery error, though, I want to know as I need to
contact MIT or something (unlikely though.)

Unsubscribe from the PICList and subscribe again. Yeah, I know, it's a pain!
But sometimes the only way, seemingly, to fix some things (Methinks L-Soft
has a bug to stomp somewhere in the Options setting/clearing code - for
their credit, they seem to have most of them pretty well squished!) You'll
have to then set your options again, which is a pain. I think (haven't
tested yet) that you can put the options all into one e-mail, too, i.e.
Subscribe on the first line, Set PICList Mail on the second, and even Set
PICList Repro on the third {Now the default}, Set PICList NoACK on the
fourth {Again the default} if you wanted. (I don't mind people asking for
help, either, especially when they cannot unsub an old address due to an ISP
change or ISP name change, it takes me 3 seconds to unsub people, so just
make sure you ask me to unsub the CORRECT ADDRESS, lest I unsub the wrong
one!)

To get at old posts, either jump to http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/ and
read there, or, you can send the command "Index PICList" to the PICList List
Server 'Command Input port' at <TakeThisOuTLISTSERVspamspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, which will get an
index of old PICList messages for you. I don't think the list server keeps
all messages ever posted, but it does keep some. You can then order
individual messages by using "GETPOST PicList Ref#1 Ref#2 ..." etc., where
Ref#1 is a reference number in the Index you just received.
Q: How can I sort email from the PICList to separate it from my other email?
A: Most email clients will allow you to setup a rule for moving PICList
email into another folder. It always comes from KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU. If
your email program doesn't support that or if you want to keep it all
together but still easily see what emails are from the PICList, you can turn
on a subject sort tag by sending the command SET PICLIST SUBJECTHDR to
LISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU. This will insert the tag [PICLIST] in the subject
line of every post and remove it from your replies to the list for other
members who have turned this feature off (the default setting). You can
disable it by sending SET PICLIST NOSUBJECTHDR to EraseMELISTSERVSTOPspamspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: How is the PICList like a PIC?
A: The PICList list server has 3 "I/O Ports".

Posting messages to the "PICList Mail Distribution port", at
spam_OUTPICListRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all 1800+
members of the PICList (Those who don't have NoMail set), who then read your
post and make snide comments if you posted to the wrong address.
Posting messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
TakeThisOuTPICList-RequestRemoveMEspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all
admins of the PICList {Jory, Mark, & James, right now}, who then read your
post & try to help.
Posting messages to the "PICList Command Input Port", at
EraseMELISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be treated as a command by
the listserve software, THIS and ONLY THIS is the address to send
Unsubscribe requests, Set NoMail requests, and so forth. The listserve
software ONLY listens here for commands, you can send them to those other
"ports" all you want, and all you'll get is a copy back from the machine,
telling you you've made a mistake.
Same as on a PIC chip, using the wrong port for the wrong purpose may result
in unintended consequences, like annoyed list neighbors or frustrated
admins.

And finally:

Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb?

A: Exactly Five Hundred:

1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb
has been changed
7 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently.
4 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. (one post in HTML)
1 admin to post a message about not posting in HTML
17 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing
1 to post an unsubscribble message to the list (rather than to the list
server)
1 to respond to that with a witty comment about t-shirts
1 to notice that some message in the signature line of one of the messages
offends him and post a flaming rebuttal
1 One Admin to flame the other about SPAMming the list with pointers to his
PICList FAQ resulting in a flurry of off list inter-admin posts that
distract the admins just long enough to allow:
463 to pile into the flames

This FAQ maintained by Jory Bell, Mark Willis and James Newton. Last update
200001070752

The PICList Admins
spamPICList-Request.....spamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

2000\01\10@112642 by PICLIST-request

flavicon
face
Please change all occurrences of [TO] into [OT] in the previous post on this
thread.

When I was about to send the monthly PICList FAQ post for Jory, Mark and I,
I thought "I'll just do one last spell check before posting this..." and
must have told the #^@^%@ spell checker to change all the ot's to to's. I
guess I have to be %7 smarter than the spell checker I'm running... <WANE
GRIN> Pardon me while I go wipe the egg off my face...

The following is correct (I think)

James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspam_OUTspam@spam@piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

'[OT [ADMIN]] PICLIST FAQ'
2000\01\10@114520 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
face
On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, James Newton wrote:

> The following is correct (I think)

> There are about 1800 people subscribed to the PICList (as of 19990110) so
                                                                 ^
------------------------------------------------------------------|

I thought there were only about 1600 subscribers then.

Scott

2000\01\10@120003 by jamesnewton

flavicon
face
Date should read (as of 20000110). Thanks for catching that.

Isn't it great to see the PICList growing?

James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
.....jamesnewtonspamspam.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

'[TO] [ADMIN] PICLIST FAQ'
2000\01\10@200107 by Peter van Hoof

flavicon
face
Just changed the topic here in accordance with the FAQ

:/ (devious grin) wake up you all

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTKILLspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of James Newton
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 11:58 AM
To: EraseMEPICLIST@spam@spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT [ADMIN]] PICLIST FAQ


Date should read (as of 20000110). Thanks for catching that.

Isn't it great to see the PICList growing?

James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
@spam@jamesnewtonspamspamKILLspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spamBeGonePICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Scott Dattalo
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 8:44 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [OT [ADMIN]] PICLIST FAQ
Importance: Low


On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, James Newton wrote:

> The following is correct (I think)

> There are about 1800 people subscribed to the PICList (as of 19990110) so
                                                                 ^
------------------------------------------------------------------|

I thought there were only about 1600 subscribers then.

Scott

'[OT [ADMIN]] PICLIST FAQ - Y2K'
2000\01\11@060144 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>Date should read (as of 20000110). Thanks for catching that.



Shouldn't that be

       20001000110
or    19000110
or     191000110
or    overflow error0110
or    -$200001.10
or ...

                               ???


'Spam? [ADMIN][OT]'
2000\02\08@112146 by jamesnewton
picon face
1. I'm actually picking up spam on my @piclist.com address.
2. The only place I use that address is the PICList.
so...

Is anyone else getting spam with the following subjects:
- Important Notice-Anti-Aging
- Legal Cable Descrambler

If so, please email me PRIVATLY, PLEASE not on the list. Just click on:
TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonspampiclist.com?subject=Yes+I+got+spammed> and click "send."

I will aggressively pursue who ever it was that may have mined the PICList
for email addresses.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewtonKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

'PICLIST FAQ [ADMIN]'
2000\02\10@171348 by jamesnewton

face picon face
WELCOME TO THE PICLIST.COM/.ORG PICLIST FAQ

The PICList is a collection of people interested in the Microchip PIC
processor who have requested that email sent to the PICList email address be
forwarded to them.

There are about 1900 people subscribed to the PICList (as of  20000210) so
sending a post to the PICList results in a lot of people spending the time
required to read your message or question. They would all appreciate it if
you would check the PIC FAQ at
http://www.piclist.com/faq
and search the Archives at
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
before posting a question.

Many of our members enjoy reading posts on topics other than the PIC but
that may be interesting to PICers (engineering, ideas, technical jokes,
etc...) but many others do not wish to spend the time required to read these
off-topic posts. They would appreciate it if you would put the text [OT] at
the end of the subject line of your post so that they know its not about
PICs. If you are replying to a post that is not about PICs and notice that
it is not marked [OT], please edit the subject line to add that flag.

Q : How do I send messages to the list
A : Step by step:

First, you check the PIC FAQ.
http://www.piclist.com/faq
and search the Archives
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
to get an instant answer without wasting anyone's time.

Second, you must be subscribed to the list
EraseMELISTSERV.....spamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SUB PICLIST
to post to the list and you must send from the email address you subscribed
from.

Third you must compose a message to
spamPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
that will elicit help.
If its not about PICs directly, that's ok, post it anyway but put [OT] at
the end of the subject line.
The subject should be as complete a description of the problem as is
possible in 60 characters or so. Compress and distill.
The body should
- be in plain text, not HTML.
- be a detailed description of the problem in as few words as possible.
- If you have a web page, post a verbose description of the problem to it
and put the full URL of that page in your post (include the ) along
with a summary of the problem.
- include what you are trying to do (overall), what you expected to have
happen at this point, what you are seeing, and how you are seeing it (what
test equipment, etc...)
- Include specific part numbers, code snippets (not the full source,
please), and signal descriptions.
Finally, read your message over again, check the subject line and press
send.
You will not see your message echoed on the PIClist, and it may take more
than a day before anyone responds since most people only read their PICList
mail once a day and they are all over the world. If no one responds after a
week, read the rest of this page,  especially the list admin Mini-FAQ,
general list guidelines,  rethink your post and add a "Nobody responded to
my last post, what am I doing wrong?" to the end and send it again.

Q : How do I send commands (like to subscribe/unsubscribe)?
A : To send a command, send it in the body of an email to the list server
address :
LISTSERVSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
For instance, to get off the list, you send the command :
SIGNOFF PICLIST to LISTSERVSTOPspamspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
@spam@LISTSERV.....spamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SUB PICLIST
Sending SIGNOFF PICLIST in the body of a post to the PICLIST@... address
will result in about 1800 people being notified that you want to leave the
PICList and the emails will keep right on coming.

Q : Where must the command be in my email?
A : In the message body. The subject line is ignored.

Q : What commands are available ?
A : List of ListServer commands is available at
http://www.piclist.com/commands

Q: Is the list moderated, how do I contact the moderators,  and what are the
guidelines?
A: The list is administered, not moderated by Mark Willis, James Newton and
Jory Bell (who setup and controls the list). Posting messages to the
"PICList Administration Port", at
spamPICList-Request.....spam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU
causes that message to be distributed to all admins who then read your post
& try to help. They have now published guidelines (Including Marks new
Mini-FAQ) at this site. Admin's guide the list by asking that people mark
off topic messages with [OT] in the subject line (not OT, <OT>, {OT] or off
topic) and PICLIST related but not PIC related messages with [Admin] so that
people who do not wish to read these postings can filter them out via their
email programs. Non-PIC related threads are common and the volume of
messages can be several hundred per week. Several respected, valuable, and
otherwise caring people have, in the past, unsubscribed due to a temporary
peak in the volume of fluff and bad attitudes. When bickering and
non-technical posts reach a fever pitch, James, Mark and even Jory have been
known to step in and put a stop to it by warning people and throwing them
off the list. If you want to be accepted and get the most help, please read
some general list guidelines. Text only posts (no HTML email) are preferred,
subject not directly related to the PIC should be marked with [OT] at the
end of the subject line, and messages of hatred or intolerance will get you
kicked off the list, period. Please forward suggestion or complaints about
the list to the list admins at PICList-Request.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU rather than to
all the list members. Product information about your PIC related product is
fine, but blatant spam is not. Advertise your company, product or site in a
one or two line addition to your signature at the bottom of your posts.

Q. Is the PICList a good place to ask for / post cracks for PIC related
software?
A. Remember that the PICList is a public forum. Asking for a crack will
typically get you nothing but advice to pay for what you get. In the past,
cracks posted to the list have evoked mixed responses ranging from offlist
threats, to onlist thanks and have started some flame threads about hacking
and cracking and software licenses and prices in general which always end up
being a waste of bandwidth. List members have been known to forward cracking
related threads to the maker of the product being cracked with full header
information (including your email address, and who your ISP is).

We can't stop people from posting things that are not legal. We do not
approve of software piracy and will remove from the list individuals who
show a flagrant disregard for the rights (and efforts) of others. We will
forcibly kill flame threads that have no bearing on PICs and are not
appropriate to the list.

Jory says: "...[we can't prevent] PICList people [from pirating] software,
since that is everyone's own choice, ... i don't want to police such things,
but please keep in mind the nature of your communication, and the nature of
a public list and decide what is appropriate."

Lets keep cracking off the PICList, there are plenty of other lists for
that, and as always, please mark anything not directly related to PIC
engineering with an [OT] at the end of the subject line.


Q: Can I advertise my product on the PICList?
A: Yes and no. Read on:

SOLVING PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PRODUCT
:> Great! Responding to a question or a request for help with an
advertisement for your product which is a solution to the original post is
no problem. That type of advertising is "a good thing" as it A) solves the
posters problem B) encourages PIC related businesses C) Keeps people who do
PICs for a living involved in the list. D) sometimes it triggers a "hey, I
can do that for a lot less" response that leads to a healthy competition for
the advertisers.
Don, Tony, Myke and others have been called on the carpet for advertising
before and list members have resoundingly stood up for them.

Before you buy anything, don't be afraid to ask others on the list for
confirmation that a product recommended by the mfg. as a solution to your
problem is a good choice. List members will not hesitate to speak up <GRIN>
and the manufacturers are expected to be thick skinned.


SIGNATURE LINES
:) Good: Adding a line or two to your signature (and the "PIC/PICList FAQ:
http://www.piclist.com " line doesn't count! <GRIN>) about what you do, buy,
sell or believe in is also no problem. The only possible exceptions are
political and/or religious flame starters and spiteful messages.

PRODUCT NEWS
:| Maybe: Posting News or information about your product (unsolicited) to
the list. Well... ok... *IF* its a product that people on the PICList will
really use. The only trick is that in the eyes of the poster, the fact that
his new hydroponic plant management system has a PIC somewhere in it
qualifies it for the PICList even though he hasn't published a schematic,
code or even any description of the design process and its never been
mentioned on the list before. On the other hand, if the product actually A)
does something to a PIC or for a PIC (like a programmer or a simulator
etc...) B) Uses a PIC and has engineering details published or C) was
designed with help from the list (e.g. we all heard about the problems and
solutions involved in the making of it), we don't see any problem.

THE FINAL WORD
:{ Listen: The final judgment of what is appropriate is left in the hands of
the PICList administrators, if *they* feel a post is inappropriate, they
WILL take action with at least a warning, followed by removal and or barring
the offender from the list, at their option, on this as in any
transgression.

Q: Is the list archived?
A: in realtime at
www.infosite.com/~jkeyzer/piclist/index.html
with older posts at
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
The server also archives the list - as of 4 January 2000 the server
contains archives back to April 1998. To get a list of the archives send the
command "index piclist" to KILLspamlistservspam_OUTspammitvma.mit.edu.

Q: Are these archives searchable?
A: Yes, they are. The two webpages have search engines on the page. The
direct server interface also provides search capability by email. To use the
email interface, compose a new message addressed to spam_OUTlistservspamTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu.
In the body of the message, create your search parameters like this:

search keyword in listname
where keyword is the word or words (seperated by spaces) that you wish to
search for and listname would be PICList.

You can further limit the search to a specific time frame by adding the
phrase

from date1
to begin the search at date1. You can also specify an ending date by adding

to date2
The full command would then be:

search keyword in listname from date1 to date2
Two other limiters that can be used are

where subject contains text
and

where sender contains text
These limiters contain the search to messages that have certain subject
lines or were sent by specific individuals, respectively.

[Thanks to Mike Werner]

Q: Why don't I see my own posts to the PICLIST?
A: This is the default setting on the list server. To changes this so that a
copy of your post is sent back to you from the list, send the command:
SET PICLIST REP to .....LISTSERV.....spamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get the list in "digest" format?
A: Yes. To change to digest mode, just send the command SET PICList DIGest
to spam_OUTLISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU. To get back to individual emails, send the
command SET PICList NODIGests to EraseMELISTSERVspamBeGonespamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get only the posts that interest me in digest form?
Q: On my slow internet connection, it takes forever to download all the
email and I'm only interested in a few anyway. How can I keep using the
list?
A: Using the Index mode of the PIC List. [thanks to Mike Werner]

First of all, you must tell the server that you want the index mode for your
subscription. To do this, send a message to RemoveMELISTSERVspamBeGonespamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU with the
command "set piclist index" (without the quotes, of course) as the sole
content in the body of the message. From then on you will receive a daily
index of postings to the list, looking something like this:

Index  Date  Size Poster and subject
-----  ----  ---- ------------------
043066 10/22   18 From:    Mike Werner <@spam@reznaeousspamspamEARTHLINK.NET>
                 Subject: Re: [OT] Bullet Proof Circuit... was: Survey...
What
                          is an
Except that there would be a whole lot more entries than that. The headers
are fairly self-explanatory, but as a quick once over they are: Index is a
server assigned sequential number for reference purposes, Date is the date
the message was received by the server, Size is the number of lines in the
message not counting headers, and then Poster and Subject is just that.

To retrieve the full message, all you need do is hit reply, quote the
original message (most mailers will do that either automatically or provide
a button to do so), and then edit out the messages that you are not
interested in. Once you have done that, send the message. In a few minutes
you will receive one digest-style message containing just the messages you
wanted.

Q: I'm going on vacation / don't want to be involved in the PICList for a
while. Should I unsubscribe and then re-subscribe when I get back?
A: You can, but this will reset any configuration related to your account.
To preserve your settings, send the NOMAIL command: SET PICList NOMAIL to
TakeThisOuTLISTSERVKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU as you leave and then send the MAIL command: SET
PICList MAIL to .....LISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU when you return. Also, consider
setting digest mode (above) to continue getting PICList posts in a more
compact form.

Q: I've been on the PICList for a while and suddenly I'm not getting any of
the 50 odd messages per day that normally come in:
A: Sometimes, on the Internet (being the way it is), mail doesn't get
through for a while - it does get through eventually. Situations happen like
your mail being handed off to a machine which then gets disconnected due to
some problem, be it "backhoe fade" or a hardware crash, things usually get
fixed up in a couple days. Usually the traffic all shows up in one HUGE
clump, some hours or days later on, whenever that server gets fixed or
re-booted. It's annoying to us admins, as we have to tell the difference
between not being on the list, being on the list but set to NoMail, or the
above, or other problems that can happen. Sometimes, someone's ISP falls
onto the RBL (Realtime Black hole List - an anti-SPAM list, this happened to
MY ISP recently), or the PICList gets mistakenly ID'ed as a "SPAM" source by
someone's ISP due to all the traffic, and all PICList traffic is filtered
into the "circular binary file." Rarely, you get a fast response back, but
the mail isn't getting through, despite the options the list server's set to
looking like it should - When THAT happens, I suggest people unsub &
re-subscribe, usually that fixes things. Sometimes just setting to digest &
then regular mail a few seconds later can fix it.

The usual test I suggest is to send a "Query PICList" message to the
"PICList List Server Command Input Port" at KILLspamLISTSERVspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU, if you
don't get a response back from that address in 5 minutes or less, mail's
dropping through an event horizon someplace between your ISP and the list
server, or filtering is happening, or someone's on the RBL & is being
filtered out. This is a good time to e-mail the list admins at
TakeThisOuTPICList-Requestspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU and let us look into it.

Q: My email address is changing. How can I forward my PICList emails?
A: If you're moving to a new ISP, you can send in the command "CHange
PICList newemailaddress@newISP", to RemoveMELISTSERVspamspamSTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU to move your
subscription. If you are no longer able to send email from your old ISP this
will not work, so you will need to contact an administrator at
.....PICList-RequestEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU and ask them to issue:

// CHange PICList oldemailaddress@oldISP ,
newemailaddress@newISP

Q: I want to post to the PICList from my home email account and from work.
When I try to post from an account from which I am not subscribed to the
PICList I get a "rejected posting" message and if I subscribe from both
email accounts, I end up with two copies of every post. What can I do?
A: Subscribe from both accounts then send the NOMAIL command from the email
address where you do not wish to receive (but do wish to send) posts.

Q: I'm having (some other) problem with the PICList
A: [There are] Multiple ways to handle any type of List problems [says Mark]

Send a "Query PICList" message, to the PICList List Server 'Command Input
port' at <spamBeGoneLISTSERVspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, and forward the resulting e-mail you
receive in return, to an Admin. with what's wrong; This gives me more info.
Should get that response quickly, so if no response in a half hour, let me
know that you tried. If this happens, it's a router problem. If you send
such a message & get a delivery error, though, I want to know as I need to
contact MIT or something (unlikely though.)

Unsubscribe from the PICList and subscribe again. Yeah, I know, it's a pain!
But sometimes the only way, seemingly, to fix some things (Methinks L-Soft
has a bug to stomp somewhere in the Options setting/clearing code - for
their credit, they seem to have most of them pretty well squished!) You'll
have to then set your options again, which is a pain. I think (haven't
tested yet) that you can put the options all into one e-mail, too, i.e.
Subscribe on the first line, Set PICList Mail on the second, and even Set
PICList Repro on the third {Now the default}, Set PICList NoACK on the
fourth {Again the default} if you wanted. (I don't mind people asking for
help, either, especially when they cannot unsub an old address due to an ISP
change or ISP name change, it takes me 3 seconds to unsub people, so just
make sure you ask me to unsub the CORRECT ADDRESS, lest I unsub the wrong
one!)

To get at old posts, either jump to http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/ and
read there, or, you can send the command "Index PICList" to the PICList List
Server 'Command Input port' at <.....LISTSERVEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, which will get an
index of old PICList messages for you. I don't think the list server keeps
all messages ever posted, but it does keep some. You can then order
individual messages by using "GETPOST PicList Ref#1 Ref#2 ..." etc., where
Ref#1 is a reference number in the Index you just received.

Q: How can I sort email from the PICList to separate it from my other email?
A: Most email clients will allow you to setup a rule for moving PICList
email into another folder. It always comes from spamPICLISTspam_OUTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU. If
your email program doesn't support that or if you want to keep it all
together but still easily see what emails are from the PICList, you can turn
on a subject sort tag by sending the command SET PICLIST SUBJECTHDR to
spamLISTSERV@spam@spamSTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU. This will insert the tag [PICLIST] in the subject
line of every post and remove it from your replies to the list for other
members who have turned this feature off (the default setting). You can
disable it by sending SET PICLIST NOSUBJECTHDR to spamBeGoneLISTSERVspamBeGonespam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: How is the PICList like a PIC?
A: The PICList list server has 3 "I/O Ports".

Posting messages to the "PICList Mail Distribution port", at
RemoveMEPICListRemoveMEspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all 1800+
members of the PICList (Those who don't have NoMail set), who then read your
post and make snide comments if you posted to the wrong address.
Posting messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
PICList-RequestKILLspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all
admins of the PICList {Jory, Mark, & James, right now}, who then read your
post & try to help.

Posting messages to the "PICList Command Input Port", at
spam_OUTLISTSERV@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be treated as a command by
the listserve software, THIS and ONLY THIS is the address to send
Unsubscribe requests, Set NoMail requests, and so forth. The listserve
software ONLY listens here for commands, you can send them to those other
"ports" all you want, and all you'll get is a copy back from the machine,
telling you you've made a mistake.
Same as on a PIC chip, using the wrong port for the wrong purpose may result
in unintended consequences, like annoyed list neighbors or flustrated
admins.

And finally:
Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb?
A: Exactly Five Hundred:
1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb
has been changed
7 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently.
4 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. (one post in HTML)
1 admin to post a message about not posting in HTML
17 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing
1 to post an unsubscribble message to the list (rather than to the list
server)
1 to respond to that with a witty comment about t-shirts
1 to notice that some message in the signature line of one of the messages
offends him and post a flaming rebuttal
1 One Admin to flame the other about SPAMming the list with links to his
shipping service resulting in a flurry of off list inter-admin posts that
distract the admins just long enough to allow:
463 to pile into the flames

This FAQ maintained by Jory Bell, Mark Willis and James Newton. Last update
200002101411

See also:

http://www.piclist.com/faq
http://www.piclist.com/projects

http://www.microchip.com MicroChip Technologies
http://techref.massmind.org/microchip/piclinks.htm David Tait's Links to
Internet PIC Resources http://www.dontronics.com
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/pic/ Ian Harries Documents & Information
http://digiserve.com/takdesign FAQ?
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/ Archives
http://www.myke.com Myke Predko's Microcontroller Reference Page PICMicro
Page
http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html - Tjaart van der Walts home page.
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/pic/ Eric Smith personal page of consultant
http://www.dattalo.com Tweaking a PIC - Scott Dattalo software for PICs
(sin, sqrt, log, bcd, parity, debounce, pwm, count, )
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sampowel/ Sam Powels PIC Archive
http://www.sq-1.com Square One Electronics PIC'n Up the Pace, PIC'n
Techniques, Serial PIC'n books
http://www.rentron.com Rentron Projects Tutorial
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/3656/posit/posit.html - Tiny
RTOS
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Cable/7772/ - Basic Stamp VM for '84
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/5807/ links
http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/pic.htm links
http://business.vsnl.com/chiptech/ Chip Technologies - kits, book, sample
code/applications
http://www.bytecraft.com/ Byte Craft C compiler, Also: A Touch Sensitive
Circuit, Software A/D and D/A Converters, Non-Linear Data Transformations
http://kitsrus.com
http://virtuaweb.com/picprog/
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/9276/downld.htm
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/posc.html PIC based O-Scope
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/kaarvik/kaarvik.htm Ken's Gameboy and PIC
Projects Page
http://www.tech-tools.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/3656/sb/index.htm SmartBow.
Software is a way to easilly create an HTML-document in IE 4.0 on Win 95/98
with a set of Virtual Controls (LEDs, buttons, displays etc.) connected to
you code running on Microchip., Scenix. or any other microprocessos. It may
be used to monitor and control your software running on a microprocessor and
to create almost run-time debug environment. It registers as a service and
communicates between the serial port and a set of Java Applets that
implement the visual controls on the HTML page.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pbhandary/
http://members.tripod.com/~mdileo/snippic.html
http://www.circuitcellar.com/pastissues/articles/richey110/text.htm Using a
PIC for speech.
http://websites.ntl.com/~matthew.rowe/micros/ PIC and AVR beginners page
(good!)
http://www.markworld.com/microtools.html excellent math and servos
http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/6584 Pic links and a nice
switch (circuit breaker) tester project.
http://www.midcoast.com.au/~paulb/faq_indx.html Dr. Paul B. Webster's little
known "gottchas"

Note:
-piclist.com was down from sometime after 199912291515 to 199912300700.
Sorry. First time since installation. Working on a backup server.
-the piclist.com domain had a problem from about 20000201 to 20000212.
piclist.org was registered as a backup and points to the same place. They
may be used interchangeably.

'Parallel Port access via C. [OT][ADMIN]'
2000\02\11@145208 by jamesnewton

face picon face
oops! These messages are supposed to go to the individual and not to the
list (and normally they do). Something went wrong on this one and I will
have to investigate to figure out what it was.

My apologies to Mr. Sassahara for any public embarrassment although non was
intended.

My apologies to the list for wasting bandwidth and time.

The content of the message does, however, remains apropos.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'off topic posts [ADMIN]'
2000\02\15@132000 by jamesnewton

picon face
1.) off topic = [OT] not [very OT] or [Now firmly OT] etc. A lot of the
people who are professional PIC engineers (read "a valuable resource to the
list") and who don't find the time to read the many hundreds of PICList
posts every day would like to filter them out using their email clients.
These programs are, well, programs and do not understand that these
alternate off topic flags are off topic.

Use [OT] and then some other comment if you wish. For example "...[OT],
firmly" or "...[OT][very OT]"

Please don't suggest filtering on OT as subject lines with words like
"other" will cause false triggers.

Yes, we understand that errors occur, we are (mostly) human as well.

This reminder is the precursor to individual warnings followed by kicking
people who can't seem to learn off the list in order to get the unmarked off
topic posts down to reasonable, error related, levels.

2.) Continued postings on the subject of internet connectivity (while really
neat and most interesting) that are not related to PICs must be marked [OT].
I will kick off people who continue to post on that thread without the [OT]
and without contributing PIC related information.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
KILLspamjamesnewton.....spamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

'SPAM watch TX head hunters [ADMIN][OT]'
2000\02\17@140719 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Has anyone received an email from Management Recruiters of Fort Worth /
Arlington, TX?

If so do you consider it SPAM or are you happy about the possible job
referral?

Policy: SPAMming the PICList membership is an instant kickoff unless the
membership likes it. <GRIN>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonEraseMEspamRemoveMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

2000\02\23@103337 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I was pleased to hear from Management Recruiters.  I think it is appropriate
that they go out and look for engineers, and part of my job security (in an
unsecure world) to keep my ear to the ground.  I responded with a resume.



I lump this in the same class as "Assembly Language Programmer needed" or
other semi-commercial but on-topic posts.

-- Lawrence


{Original Message removed}

'mining piclist.com [SPAM] [OT][ADMIN]'
2000\02\24@123253 by jamesnewton

picon face
I'm removing email addresses from piclist.com as I find them but I got
indexed again yesterday by a non-search engine. After the
http://www.magelan.ru/ people did this and starting sending me and others
SPAM, I had implemented an "indexer detector" that produced the following
reports for example (and others)

SUBJECT:ref1 ndxed by141.20.196.74 Offline Explorer/1.0
DATE:2000/02/23 16:42:25
X-PPEnvelope-To: spam_OUTjamesnewtonRemoveMEspam.....piclist.com
http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp is being indexed by:
141.20.196.74 of 141.20.196.74
The HTTP request was:
Accept: */*
Connection: Keep-Alive
Host: 204.210.50.240
Referer: http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp
User-Agent: Offline Explorer/1.0
Pragma: no-cache
http://spamcop.net/sc?action=trackhost&host=141.20.196.74

SUBJECT:ref1 ndxed by141.20.196.74 Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U)
DATE:2000/02/23 16:29:06
X-PPEnvelope-To: spamjamesnewtonKILLspamspamKILLspampiclist.com
http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp is being indexed by:
141.20.196.74 of 141.20.196.74
The HTTP request was:
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, image/png, */*
Accept-Language: de,en
Connection: Keep-Alive
Host: 204.210.50.240
Referer: http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U)
Accept-Encoding: gzip
Accept-Charset: iso-8859-1,*,utf-8
http://spamcop.net/sc?action=trackhost&host=141.20.196.74

REPLY-TO:spamjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamgeocities.com
SUBJECT:ref1 ndxed by 141.20.1.98 Offline Explorer/1.0
DATE:2000/02/23 16:21:48
X-PPEnvelope-To: STOPspamjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamspamBeGonepiclist.com
http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp is being indexed by:
141.20.1.98 of 141.20.1.98
The HTTP request was:
Accept: */*
Connection: Keep-Alive
Host: 204.210.50.240
Referer: http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp
User-Agent: Offline Explorer/1.0
Pragma: no-cache
http://spamcop.net/sc?action=trackhost&host=141.20.1.98

When I got the first report I checked his IP, and spamcop, then blocked
141.20.1.98 so he came back and queried the site, saw that he was being
blocked, tried another IP with his browser (the middle report) then turned
his engine back on that IP. I sent repeated emails telling him to stop and
kept trying to monitor access but I think by constantly changing his IP, he
got the whole thing.

I now have a trapper and a automatic blocker (and I won't say how except by
private email) so I don't think this will happen again, BUT if you get
SPAMMed, and your email address was on my site, I'm sorry, I'll track your
email down and remove it, but this prick is the source.

Any suggestions on preventing this sort of thing in the future (other than
the obvious "don't list emails") are welcome. I'm writing a "fake email
generator" to add the to trapper that should be interesting to these jerks
as well. <GRIN>

---
James Newton spam_OUTjamesnewtonspamspamBeGonegeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)

2000\02\24@131232 by Tim Hamel

picon face
In a message dated 2/24/00 9:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,
EraseMEeplus1spamKILLspamSAN.RR.COM writes:

> I'm removing email addresses from piclist.com as I find them but I got
>  indexed again yesterday by a non-search engine. After the
>  http://www.magelan.ru/ people did this and starting sending me and others
>  SPAM, I had implemented an "indexer detector" that produced the following
>  reports for example (and others)
>

<snip>

I don't think 141.20.1.98 is him, I think it's his ISP. Port 80 is open on
this IP which suggests it's not a normal user. Whoever it is, they're most
likely running Linux. Another thing, maybe he tried to connected directly
then tried via a Proxy (141.20.1.98)?

Just a thought,

Tim Hamel

2000\02\24@164855 by Mike Werner

picon face
On Thu, Feb 24, 2000 at 01:11:09PM -0500, Tim Hamel wrote:
<snipped>
> this IP which suggests it's not a normal user. Whoever it is, they're most
> likely running Linux.

I'm curious as to what brought you to this conclusion.  If you look
at the reports that were posted ...

SUBJECT:ref1 ndxed by141.20.196.74 Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U)
DATE:2000/02/23 16:29:06
X-PPEnvelope-To: EraseMEjamesnewtonRemoveMEspampiclist.com
http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp is being indexed by:
141.20.196.74 of 141.20.196.74
The HTTP request was:
Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, image/png, */*
Accept-Language: de,en
Connection: Keep-Alive
Host: 204.210.50.240
Referer: http://204.210.50.240/techref/default.asp
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (WinNT; U)
Accept-Encoding: gzip
Accept-Charset: iso-8859-1,*,utf-8
http://spamcop.net/sc?action=trackhost&host=141.20.196.74

... specifically the fourth to last line it says WinNT.  The
other reports the offender was using Offline Eplorer, which is
a Win9x/NT automated downloader.  So it looks to me as if the
offender was running NT, not Linux.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
ICQ# 12934898                 |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'PICList Web Archive [SPAM][ADMIN]'
2000\02\29@142540 by PICLIST-request

flavicon
face
After realizing that PICList members email addresses have been grabbed for
SPAM purposes from piclist.com, we realized that the real-time archives
provided by Jeff Keyser was also a potential target. We sent Jeff a nice
email thanking him for the service and asking what can be done to solve the
problem.

The following response from him seems like an accurate assessment of the
situation and his option #2 (passwording the archive with a simple and
freely available from the list password) seems to me to be the best of the
4.

I'd like to ask the list members if they agree and also let you know what is
about to happen unless other options are available.

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS EMAIL VIA THE PICLIST. CHECK THAT THE REPLY TO
ADDRESS IS
.....PICList-Requestspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Thank you.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
@spam@jamesnewtonEraseMEspamspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org


{Original Message removed}


'PICLIST FAQ [ADMIN]'
2000\03\13@173744 by jamesnewton
picon face
WELCOME TO THE PICLIST.COM/.ORG FAQ

The PICList is a collection of people interested in the Microchip PIC
processor who have requested that email sent to the PICList email address be
forwarded to them.

There are about 2000 people subscribed to the PICList (as of  20000313) so
sending a post to the PICList results in a lot of people spending the time
required to read your message or question. They would all appreciate it if
you would check the PIC FAQ at
http://www.piclist.com/faq
and search the Archives at
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
before posting a question.

Many of our members enjoy reading posts on topics other than the PIC but
that may be interesting to PICers (engineering, ideas, technical jokes,
etc...) but many others do not wish to spend the time required to read these
off-topic posts. They would appreciate it if you would put the text [OT] at
the end of the subject line of your post so that they know its not about
PICs. If you are replying to a post that is not about PICs and notice that
it is not marked [OT], please edit the subject line to add that flag.

Q : How do I send messages to the list
A : Step by step:

First, you check the PIC FAQ.
http://www.piclist.com/faq
and search the Archives.
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
to get an instant answer without wasting anyone's time.

Second, you must be subscribed to the list to post to the list and you must
send from the email address you subscribed from.
LISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=sub piclist

Third you must compose a message to
RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
that will elicit help.

If its not about PICs directly, that's ok, post it anyway but put [OT] at
the end of the subject line. The subject should be as complete a description
of the problem as is possible in 60 characters or so. Compress and distill.

The body should
- be in plain text, not HTML. See:
www.piclist.com/techref/default.asp?url=app/inet/emailfmt
- be a detailed description of the problem in as few words as possible.
- If you have a web page, post a verbose description of the problem to it
and put the full URL of that page in your post (include the ) along
with a summary of the problem.
- include what you are trying to do (overall), what you expected to have
happen at this point, what you are seeing, and how you are seeing it (what
test equipment, etc...)
- Include specific part numbers, code snippets (not the full source,
please), and signal descriptions.

Finally, read your message over again, check the subject line and press
send.

You will not see your message echoed on the PIClist, and it may take more
than a day before anyone responds since most people only read their PICList
mail once a day and they are all over the world. If no one responds after a
week, read the rest of this page,  especially the list admin Mini-FAQ,
general list guidelines,  rethink your post and add a "Nobody responded to
my last post, what am I doing wrong?" to the end and send it again.

Q : How do I send commands (like to subscribe/unsubscribe)?
A : To send a command, send it in the body of an email to the list server
address :
@spam@LISTSERVSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
For instance, to get off the list, you send the command :
SIGNOFF PICLIST to TakeThisOuTLISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sending SIGNOFF PICLIST in the body of a post to the PICLIST@... address
will result in about 1800 people being notified that you want to leave the
PICList and the emails will keep right on coming.

Q : Where must the command be in my email?
A : In the message body. The subject line is ignored.

Q : What commands are available ?
A : List of ListServer commands
http://www.piclist.com/commands

Q: Is the list moderated, how do I contact the moderators,  and what are the
guidelines?
A: The list is administered, not moderated by Mark Willis, James Newton ,
Mike Werner and Jory Bell (who setup and controls the list). Posting
messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
spam_OUTPICList-Requestspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all
admins who then read your post & try to help. They have now published
guidelines (Including Marks new Mini-FAQ) at this site. Admin's guide the
list by asking that people mark off topic messages with [OT] in the subject
line (not OT, <OT>, {OT] or off topic) and PICLIST related but not PIC
related messages with [Admin] so that people who do not wish to read these
postings can filter them out via their email programs. Non-PIC related
threads are common and the volume of messages can be several hundred per
week. Several respected, valuable, and otherwise caring people have, in the
past, unsubscribed due to a temporary peak in the volume of fluff and bad
attitudes. When bickering and non-technical posts reach a fever pitch,
James, Mark and even Jory have been known to step in and put a stop to it by
warning people and throwing them off the list. If you want to be accepted
and get the most help, please read some general list guidelines. Text only
posts (no HTML email) are preferred, subject not directly related to the PIC
should be marked with [OT] at the end of the subject line, and messages of
hatred or intolerance will get you kicked off the list, period. Please
forward suggestion or complaints about the list to the list admins at
PICList-Request.....spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU rather than to all the list members. Product
information about your PIC related product is fine, but blatant spam is not.
Advertise your company, product or site in a one or two line addition to
your signature at the bottom of your posts.

Q. Is the PICList a good place to ask for / post cracks for PIC related
software?
A. Remember that the PICList is a public forum. Asking for a crack will
typically get you nothing but advice to pay for what you get. In the past,
cracks posted to the list have evoked mixed responses ranging from offlist
threats, to onlist thanks and have started some flame threads about hacking
and cracking and software licenses and prices in general which always end up
being a waste of bandwidth. List members have been known to forward cracking
related threads to the maker of the product being cracked with full header
information (including your email address, and who your ISP is).

We can't stop people from posting things that are not legal. We do not
approve of software piracy and will remove from the list individuals who
show a flagrant disregard for the rights (and efforts) of others. We will
forcibly kill flame threads that have no bearing on PICs and are not
appropriate to the list.

Jory says: "...[we can't prevent] PICList people [from pirating] software,
since that is everyone's own choice, ... i don't want to police such things,
but please keep in mind the nature of your communication, and the nature of
a public list and decide what is appropriate."

Lets keep cracking off the PICList, there are plenty of other lists for
that, and as always, please mark anything not directly related to PIC
engineering with an [OT] at the end of the subject line.


Q: Can I advertise my product on the PICList?
A: Yes and no. Read on:

SOLVING PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PRODUCT
:> Great! Responding to a question or a request for help with an
advertisement for your product which is a solution to the original post is
no problem. That type of advertising is "a good thing" as it A) solves the
posters problem B) encourages PIC related businesses C) Keeps people who do
PICs for a living involved in the list. D) sometimes it triggers a "hey, I
can do that for a lot less" response that leads to a healthy competition for
the advertisers.
Don, Tony, Myke and others have been called on the carpet for advertising
before and list members have resoundingly stood up for them.

Before you buy anything, don't be afraid to ask others on the list for
confirmation that a product recommended by the mfg. as a solution to your
problem is a good choice. List members will not hesitate to speak up <GRIN>
and the manufacturers are expected to be thick skinned.


SIGNATURE LINES
:) Good: Adding a line or two to your signature (and the "PIC/PICList FAQ:
http://www.piclist.com " line doesn't count! <GRIN>) about what you do, buy,
sell or believe in is also no problem. The only possible exceptions are
political and/or religious flame starters and spiteful messages.

PRODUCT NEWS
:| Maybe: Posting News or information about your product (unsolicited) to
the list. Well... ok... *IF* its a product that people on the PICList will
really use. The only trick is that in the eyes of the poster, the fact that
his new hydroponic plant management system has a PIC somewhere in it
qualifies it for the PICList even though he hasn't published a schematic,
code or even any description of the design process and its never been
mentioned on the list before. On the other hand, if the product actually A)
does something to a PIC or for a PIC (like a programmer or a simulator
etc...) B) Uses a PIC and has engineering details published or C) was
designed with help from the list (e.g. we all heard about the problems and
solutions involved in the making of it), we don't see any problem.

THE FINAL WORD
:{ Listen: The final judgment of what is appropriate is left in the hands of
the PICList administrators, if *they* feel a post is inappropriate, they
WILL take action with at least a warning, followed by removal and or barring
the offender from the list, at their option, on this as in any
transgression.

Q: Is the list archived?
A: Yes. Please use it:

Since December 1998 up to realtime with a full search engine at
www.infosite.com/~jkeyzer/piclist/index.html
(NOTE: this site has been password protected to prevent mineing by SPAMers
web robots for email addresses but the username is piclist and the password
is piclist)

Since March 1996 to realtime with a time range but subject line only search
engine at
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
.
The server also archives the list - as of 4 January 2000 the server contains
archives back to April 1998. To get a list of the archives send the command
"index piclist" to spamBeGonelistservspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu. (Thanks Mike!)

Q: Are these archives searchable?
A: Yes, they are. The two webpages have search engines on the page. The
direct server interface also provides search capability by email. To use the
email interface, compose a new message addressed to EraseMElistserv.....spammitvma.mit.edu.
In the body of the message, create your search parameters like this:

search keyword in listname
where keyword is the word or words (separated by spaces) that you wish to
search for and listname would be PICList.

You can further limit the search to a specific time frame by adding the
phrase

from date1
to begin the search at date1. You can also specify an ending date by adding

to date2
The full command would then be:

search keyword in listname from date1 to date2
Two other limiters that can be used are

where subject contains text
and

where sender contains text
These limiters contain the search to messages that have certain subject
lines or were sent by specific individuals, respectively.

[Thanks to Mike Werner]

Q: Why don't I see my own posts to the PICLIST?
A: This is the default setting on the list server. To changes this so that a
copy of your post is sent back to you from the list, send the command:
SET PICLIST REP to spamLISTSERVKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get the list in "digest" format?
A: Yes. To change to digest mode, just send the command SET PICList DIGest
to LISTSERVspamspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU. To get back to individual emails, send the
command SET PICList NODIGests to RemoveMELISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get only the posts that interest me in digest form?
Q: On my slow internet connection, it takes forever to download all the
email and I'm only interested in a few anyway. How can I keep using the
list?
A: Using the Index mode of the PIC List. [thanks to Mike Werner]

First of all, you must tell the server that you want the index mode for your
subscription. To do this, send a message to TakeThisOuTLISTSERV@spam@spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU with the
command "set piclist index" (without the quotes, of course) as the sole
content in the body of the message. From then on you will receive a daily
index of postings to the list, looking something like this:

Index  Date  Size Poster and subject
-----  ----  ---- ------------------
043066 10/22   18 From:    Mike Werner <TakeThisOuTreznaeousspamspamEARTHLINK.NET>
                 Subject: Re: [OT] Bullet Proof Circuit... was: Survey...
What
                          is an
Except that there would be a whole lot more entries than that. The headers
are fairly self-explanatory, but as a quick once over they are: Index is a
server assigned sequential number for reference purposes, Date is the date
the message was received by the server, Size is the number of lines in the
message not counting headers, and then Poster and Subject is just that.

To retrieve the full message, all you need do is hit reply, quote the
original message (most mailers will do that either automatically or provide
a button to do so), and then edit out the messages that you are not
interested in. Once you have done that, send the message. In a few minutes
you will receive one digest-style message containing just the messages you
wanted.

Q: I'm going on vacation / don't want to be involved in the PICList for a
while. Should I unsubscribe and then re-subscribe when I get back?
A: You can, but this will reset any configuration related to your account.
To preserve your settings, send the NOMAIL command: SET PICList NOMAIL to
KILLspamLISTSERVKILLspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU as you leave and then send the MAIL command: SET
PICList MAIL to spamBeGoneLISTSERVKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU when you return. Also, consider
setting digest mode (above) to continue getting PICList posts in a more
compact form.

Q: I've been on the PICList for a while and suddenly I'm not getting any of
the 50 odd messages per day that normally come in:
A: Sometimes, on the Internet (being the way it is), mail doesn't get
through for a while - it does get through eventually. Situations happen like
your mail being handed off to a machine which then gets disconnected due to
some problem, be it "backhoe fade" or a hardware crash, things usually get
fixed up in a couple days. Usually the traffic all shows up in one HUGE
clump, some hours or days later on, whenever that server gets fixed or
re-booted. It's annoying to us admins, as we have to tell the difference
between not being on the list, being on the list but set to NoMail, or the
above, or other problems that can happen. Sometimes, someone's ISP falls
onto the RBL (Realtime Black hole List - an anti-SPAM list, this happened to
MY ISP recently), or the PICList gets mistakenly ID'ed as a "SPAM" source by
someone's ISP due to all the traffic, and all PICList traffic is filtered
into the "circular binary file." Rarely, you get a fast response back, but
the mail isn't getting through, despite the options the list server's set to
looking like it should - When THAT happens, I suggest people unsub &
re-subscribe, usually that fixes things. Sometimes just setting to digest &
then regular mail a few seconds later can fix it.

The usual test I suggest is to send a "Query PICList" message to the
"PICList List Server Command Input Port" at LISTSERV@spam@spamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, if you
don't get a response back from that address in 5 minutes or less, mail's
dropping through an event horizon someplace between your ISP and the list
server, or filtering is happening, or someone's on the RBL & is being
filtered out. This is a good time to e-mail the list admins at
EraseMEPICList-RequestRemoveMEspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU and let us look into it.

Q: My email address is changing. How can I forward my PICList emails?
A: If you're moving to a new ISP, you can send in the command "CHange
PICList newemailaddress@newISP", to RemoveMELISTSERVspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU to move your
subscription. If you are no longer able to send email from your old ISP this
will not work, so you will need to contact an administrator at
STOPspamPICList-Request.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: I want to post to the PICList from my home email account and from work.
When I try to post from an account from which I am not subscribed to the
PICList I get a "rejected posting" message and if I subscribe from both
email accounts, I end up with two copies of every post. What can I do?
A: Subscribe from both accounts then send the NOMAIL command from the email
address where you do not wish to receive (but do wish to send) posts.

Q: I'm having (some other) problem with the PICList
A: [There are] Multiple ways to handle any type of List problems [says Mark]

Send a "Query PICList" message, to the PICList List Server 'Command Input
port' at <spamBeGoneLISTSERVRemoveMEspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, and forward the resulting e-mail you
receive in return, to an Admin. with what's wrong; This gives me more info.
Should get that response quickly, so if no response in a half hour, let me
know that you tried. If this happens, it's a router problem. If you send
such a message & get a delivery error, though, I want to know as I need to
contact MIT or something (unlikely though.)

Unsubscribe from the PICList and subscribe again. Yeah, I know, it's a pain!
But sometimes the only way, seemingly, to fix some things (Methinks L-Soft
has a bug to stomp somewhere in the Options setting/clearing code - for
their credit, they seem to have most of them pretty well squished!) You'll
have to then set your options again, which is a pain. I think (haven't
tested yet) that you can put the options all into one e-mail, too, i.e.
Subscribe on the first line, Set PICList Mail on the second, and even Set
PICList Repro on the third {Now the default}, Set PICList NoACK on the
fourth {Again the default} if you wanted. (I don't mind people asking for
help, either, especially when they cannot unsub an old address due to an ISP
change or ISP name change, it takes me 3 seconds to unsub people, so just
make sure you ask me to unsub the CORRECT ADDRESS, lest I unsub the wrong
one!)

To get at old posts, either jump to
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
and read there, or, you can send the command "Index PICList" to the PICList
List Server 'Command Input port' at <@spam@LISTSERVspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, which will
get an index of old PICList messages for you. I don't think the list server
keeps all messages ever posted, but it does keep some. You can then order
individual messages by using "GETPOST PicList Ref#1 Ref#2 ..." etc., where
Ref#1 is a reference number in the Index you just received.
Q: How can I sort email from the PICList to separate it from my other email?
A: Most email clients will allow you to setup a rule for moving PICList
email into another folder. It always comes from spam_OUTPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU. If
your email program doesn't support that or if you want to keep it all
together but still easily see what emails are from the PICList, you can turn
on a subject sort tag by sending the command SET PICLIST SUBJECTHDR to
spamLISTSERVspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU. This will insert the tag [PICLIST] in the subject
line of every post and remove it from your replies to the list for other
members who have turned this feature off (the default setting). You can
disable it by sending SET PICLIST NOSUBJECTHDR to spamBeGoneLISTSERVKILLspamspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: How is the PICList like a PIC?
A: The PICList list server has 3 "I/O Ports".

Posting messages to the "PICList Mail Distribution port", at
TakeThisOuTPICListspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all 1800+
members of the PICList (Those who don't have NoMail set), who then read your
post and make snide comments if you posted to the wrong address.
Posting messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
spamBeGonePICList-RequestspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all
admins of the PICList {Jory, Mark, & James, right now}, who then read your
post & try to help.
Posting messages to the "PICList Command Input Port", at
EraseMELISTSERVEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be treated as a command by
the listserve software, THIS and ONLY THIS is the address to send
Unsubscribe requests, Set NoMail requests, and so forth. The listserve
software ONLY listens here for commands, you can send them to those other
"ports" all you want, and all you'll get is a copy back from the machine,
telling you you've made a mistake.
Same as on a PIC chip, using the wrong port for the wrong purpose may result
in unintended consequences, like annoyed list neighbors or flustrated
admins.



See also:
http://www.piclist.com/faq

PICList projects
http://www.piclist.com/project

PICList links
MicroChip Technologies
http://www.dontronics.com
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/pic/ Ian Harries Documents & Information
http://techref.massmind.org/microchip/piclinks.htm David Tait's Links to
Internet PIC Resources
http://digiserve.com/takdesign FAQ?
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/ Archives
http://www.myke.com Myke Predko's Microcontroller Reference Page PICMicro
Page
http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html - Tjaart van der Walts home page.
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/pic/ Eric Smith personal page of consultant
http://www.dattalo.com Tweaking a PIC - Scott Dattalo software for PICs
(sin, sqrt, log, bcd, parity, debounce, pwm, count, )
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sampowel/ Sam Powels PIC Archive
http://www.sq-1.com Square One Electronics PIC'n Up the Pace, PIC'n
Techniques, Serial PIC'n books
http://www.rentron.com Rentron Projects Tutorial
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/3656/posit/posit.html - Tiny
RTOS
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Cable/7772/ - Basic Stamp VM for '84
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/5807/ links
http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/pic.htm links
http://business.vsnl.com/chiptech/ Chip Technologies - kits, book, sample
code/applications
http://www.bytecraft.com/ Byte Craft C compiler, Also: A Touch Sensitive
Circuit, Software A/D and D/A Converters, Non-Linear Data Transformations
http://kitsrus.com
http://virtuaweb.com/picprog/
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/9276/downld.htm
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/posc.html PIC based O-Scope
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/kaarvik/kaarvik.htm Ken's Gameboy and PIC
Projects Page
http://www.tech-tools.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/3656/sb/index.htm SmartBow.
Software is a way to easilly create an HTML-document in IE 4.0 on Win 95/98
with a set of Virtual Controls (LEDs, buttons, displays etc.) connected to
you code running on Microchip., Scenix. or any other microprocessos. It may
be used to monitor and control your software running on a microprocessor and
to create almost run-time debug environment. It registers as a service and
communicates between the serial port and a set of Java Applets that
implement the visual controls on the HTML page.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pbhandary/
http://members.tripod.com/~mdileo/snippic.html
http://www.circuitcellar.com/pastissues/articles/richey110/text.htm Using a
PIC for speech.
http://websites.ntl.com/~matthew.rowe/micros/ PIC and AVR beginners page
(good!)
http://www.markworld.com/microtools.html excellent math and servos
http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/6584 Pic links and a nice
switch (circuit breaker) tester project.
http://www.midcoast.com.au/~paulb/faq_indx.html Dr. Paul B. Webster's little
known "gottchas"
http://www.idcomm.com/personal/ottosen/


the piclist.com domain had a problem from about 20000201 to 20000212.
piclist.org was registered as a backup and points to the same place. They
may be used interchangeably.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewtonspam_OUTspam.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

'to [ADMIN] Microchip anouncements?'
2000\03\15@134401 by Quentin

flavicon
face
Why is this list not subscribed to the Microchip Customer notification?
They send anouncements about 12, 14, and 16 bit core releases and
development tools, etc. Emails are few and far in between, but it is
useful and keeps us up to date (That is how I found out MPLAB 5 is
released).
Go to:
http://www.microchip.com/10/Lit/CN/index.htm

If it is not possible to subscribe, maybe one of the Admin should
forward the messages.

Quentin

2000\03\15@135241 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
I, for one, think that's a great idea for some of the microchip lists.  The one
problem is that all the core lists got that notice, so if you subscribed PICLIST
to all of them we would have had 4 MPLAB notices.

I suppose there's no really good reason to do it, though, since anyone can
subscribe to the lists themselves, and won't have to worry about getting notices
for the picstart + firmware when they don't have one.

-Adam

Quentin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\03\15@141943 by jamesnewton

face picon face
How about I just add the link to
http://www.piclist.com/
?

---
James Newton spamjamesnewtonspamgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


{Original Message removed}

2000\03\15@232616 by Quentin

flavicon
face
"M. Adam Davis" wrote:
>
> I, for one, think that's a great idea for some of the microchip lists.  The one
> problem is that all the core lists got that notice, so if you subscribed PICLIST
> to all of them we would have had 4 MPLAB notices.
Oh, is that why I was getting so many notifications about MPLAB. :)
Point taken. Looks like the link on the PIC page is the best then,
James.

Quentin

'ICD and Stopwatch (perhaps [OT]) cc: [ADMIN]'
2000\03\16@111613 by Quitt, Walter

flavicon
face
The following is sorta OT.
Are others getting strange messges from the L-Soft list server?
I've been getting a strange message every now and then.
No biggie but this sort of thing, oft times, gets worse and
can lead to a list crash.

"We don't wnat that, do we?"

-W


-----Original Message-----
From: John Hansen [RemoveMEjohnKILLspamspamKILLspamHANSEN.NET]
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2000 7:55 AM
To: EraseMEPICLISTspamBeGonespamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: ICD and Stopwatch


I tried this post yesterday but it bounced.  If it turns out to be a
duplicate, I apologize.

Has anyone else noticed that the stopwatch cannot be used when stepping
through code using the debugger in the ICD?  I'm using version 4.12 of
MPLAB... has this been "fixed" in the later versions?

John Hansen

2000\03\16@132304 by Andrew Kelley

picon face
I do.  I got maybe 5 from posts that went thru yesterday.

Andrew

On Thu, 16 Mar 2000 08:12:46 -0800 "Quitt, Walter" <KILLspamwquittspamMICROJOIN.COM>
writes:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\03\16@182624 by jamesnewton

face picon face
If you could forward a copy (including headers) of a couple of the emails
that look weird to
PICList-Requestspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
then Mark or I (or Jory or Mike) can look at them and try to figure out what
is up. Mark is the genius on this subject but is having hardware problems
(HD crash?) and is too nice to ask the list members for help despite his
many moons of service.

---
James Newton jamesnewtonspamspam@spam@geocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)


{Original Message removed}

'New [ADMIN]'
2000\03\16@183434 by jamesnewton

picon face
BTY, did we forget to mention that the PICList has another new admin? Mike
Werner has kindly agreed to devote his "other spare time" after classes to
the list and apply his strange and wonderful talent for reading and
understanding convoluted documentation to the list server manuals.

In fact, he has already succeeded (with some help from the list server god)
where Mark and I failed by figuring out how to update the message the new
members receive when subscribing to the list.

The piclist.com home page in text format (which is also the monthly FAQ
admin post) is now automatically emailed to every person who joins the list.
Hopefully, this will do a better job than the (very dry) default message
that was being sent of telling people how to "unsubscribble" and be polite
on the list.

Thanks Mike.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewton.....spampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

'[Admin] List Problems'
2000\03\17@025328 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Hi, all -

We know there are problems with messages being bounced as "Duplicate",
we're tracking it down.

If you're having a problem with these, it'll help if you pass full
headers on the problem messages, I'll keep looking into it.

I've asked the people at the ISP that's apparently involved, to look
into this somewhat as well;  Something somewhere's set up wrong, that's
obvious <G>

 Mark

2000\03\17@041527 by Arthur Brown

flavicon
face
check if double messages are world wide as today all my messages are double
is this a virus that we were expecting but never came.This is
CABLEINET.CO.UK
also at this time of day it is easy to connect but today traffic is down to
82bps.
shall we all goback to tele-types at least whey were 110baud. \\{:)
all the best arthur

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Willis Sent: Friday, March 17, 2000 7:51 AM
Subject: [Admin] List Problems

'New [ADMIN]'
2000\03\17@060329 by paulb

flavicon
face
James Newton wrote:

> In fact, he has already succeeded (with some help from the list server
> god) where Mark and I failed by figuring out how to update the message
> the new members receive when subscribing to the list.

 Does this skill extend to updating the message received when a message
is posted more than once to the list, so as to remove the present
gobbledegook and state simply that the message has been received twice,
due to some error, possibly due to an echo, but *UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES*
to even *consider* posting it again?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\03\17@163017 by Mike Werner

picon face
On Fri, Mar 17, 2000 at 10:02:38PM +1100, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
> James Newton wrote:
>
> > In fact, he has already succeeded (with some help from the list server
> > god) where Mark and I failed by figuring out how to update the message
> > the new members receive when subscribing to the list.
>
>   Does this skill extend to updating the message received when a message
> is posted more than once to the list, so as to remove the present
> gobbledegook and state simply that the message has been received twice,
> due to some error, possibly due to an echo, but *UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES*
> to even *consider* posting it again?

I'm working on it.  But so far it seems that particular setting is
either:
a) Hardcoded into the server (which I doubt) or
b) Done at the site level, which we don't have access to

So far I have yet to discover where settings for that item are, or
even what the *name* of the setting is.  This is the first I've delved
into the site documentation, so I'm still feeling my way through those.

And I must say that I agree on the default messages - they aren't
exactly the clearest are they? ::grin:: But then they are written so as
to be quite generic.

I'll keep digging - hopefully I'll uncover the solution to this one
before too long.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
ICQ# 12934898                 |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN] Repeated Messages'
2000\03\21@033720 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
part 0 2826 bytes
<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Do you ever get that strange feeling of deja vu?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">After the rash of bounced mails with warnings about duplicate posts, I've just had a bunch of old posts land in my inbox.&nbsp; I vaguely remember this happening before and Mark sorted it.&nbsp; Can't remember what the cause was though.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Mike</FONT>
</P>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=1 FACE="Arial">{Original Message removed}

2000\03\21@041711 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
As of about 3PM Monday I did something which will either fix this, or
not;  if it doesn't fix it, I'll try further action, something's
seriously wrong at one account at one ISP, e-mail to the person who's
subscribed there hasn't resulted in a reply.

Tomorrow (well, OK, later today) should be fixed.  One way or another,
by some kind of lever and fulcrum or another <G>

 Mark

> Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:
> Do you ever get that strange feeling of deja vu?
>
> After the rash of bounced mails with warnings about duplicate posts,
> I've just had a bunch of old posts land in my inbox.  I vaguely
> remember this happening before and Mark sorted it.  Can't remember
> what the cause was though.
>
> Mike
>
>      {Original Message removed}

2000\03\22@112907 by Daniel Hart

flavicon
face
Today I received dups of virtually the entire current list. This has not happened to me before.
Dan

Mark Willis wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> >      {Original Message removed}

'16-bit arithmetic in C [ADMIN] HTML [OT]'
2000\03\22@122931 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Jim, I appreciate your frustration, but rest assured that the list admins
are doing everything they can to remind people to use plain text and work
with them to make the adjustment.

Michael is forced to use an old copy of Outlook '97 by his boss. He can't
install "outside" software on his work machine. He can monitor and post to
the PICList from work (I hope most Bosses understand what a valuable
resource the list is) but the program doesn't seem to want to respect his
Plain Text setting. He and I have tried to work it out. The options are: get
posts from him in HTML or not get posts from him... the list members need to
vote on which is better. Please don't post your suggestions or preferences
to the list. See the next item.

Finally, Please refrain from complaining to the PICList about PICList
members. Either email them directly, or email the list admins at
.....PICList-Request@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
@spam@PICList-RequestspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
or directly to me at jamesnewtonRemoveMEspampiclist.com
spamjamesnewtonspampiclist.com

Thanks for caring about the PICList

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org


{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] Repeated Messages'
2000\03\22@135701 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Ack.  Daniel, please pass me verbose headers, I want to see where those
are coming from.  Same for anyone else getting these, please.

 Mark

Daniel Hart wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > >      {Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] Digest problems'
2000\03\28@200735 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Hi, all;

If you get the Digest, you may be getting multiple copies of same.
We're trying to track this down;  If you DO get multiple copies, PLEASE
PLEASE PLEASE send me *full* headers off the top of at least 2 Digests -
I can NOT track the cause of this problem down without full headers
usually.  Lots easier with info <G>  Same thing as trying to debug a PIC
problem based on "It doesn't work right" - we can guess, but it's just
guesswork <G>

Full headers will look UGLY, worse than C or assembler;  something like
this for Netscape, from a test I just sent through a backup mail address
of mine:

{Quote hidden}

 Mark

'[Admin] Digest Disasters Debugged?'
2000\03\29@172740 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Hi, all;  Looks like headers from 2 people so far both point at a sick
machine at LSoft as the cause of those unfortunates who're getting
multiple digests.

If you have headers, you'll see a date discrepancy between Received and
Send on dates on lime.ease.lsoft.com;  That's the thing that I'm seeing
that makes me think it's the culprit.

I'd bet LSoft will have that fixed shortly!

 Mark

'[Admin] PICList Digest replacement copies'
2000\03\29@235045 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Hi, all.  Starting last night, with PICList Digest for 27 Mar 2000 to 28
Mar 2000 (#2000-89), I subscribed to the list off a spare e-mail
forwarding address I own, in Digest form.

Partially did this so that, in future, if necessary, I can forward
Digests to anyone missing one.  Mostly did it to solve e-mail header
problems.

Please Please Please, though, ask for them by the *Index number* (i.e.
#2000-89 for the first one!), not the date range, as differences in
world time will confuse us all otherwise <G>  Telling me which Digests
you have is good enough (as the subject lines have the index numbers I
want to know <G>)

This old Win4WG 3.11 machine just doesn't seem to want to edit the
digests, due to their size, or I'd try to just Send them to those asking
- Sorry it'll be Forwarded, but a readable Forwarded copy beats no
digest at all.

 Mark

'Off-list help requests [ADMIN]'
2000\03\30@155305 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Art, I'd like to see your list of the posts that you feel are off topic
(i.e. totally not related to PICs) and are not marked [OT]. I'm not saying
it doesn't happen, but I would like you to help justify a 50% figure.

In general,
 Please do mark topics not related to PICs with [OT]. If you don't like
talking to nice people who share interests about things other than PICs.
Filter out posts with [OT] in the subject line.

Please rest assured that people who post non-PIC engineering related message
do get a friendly reminder, then an un-friendly demand and then do get
kicked off the list. People who SPAM, post hate messages or break the law,
just get kicked off.

We do police the list, and I appreciate your feedback on what is and is not
acceptable.

Please take this posts as an invitation to comment on that subject. But
please, Please, PLEASE comment to
@spam@PICList-RequestRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
PICList-Request@spam@spamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
rather than to the list if you are complaining about other members.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spam_OUTjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamRemoveMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] Marking an "OT" post properly when a threa'
2000\03\31@023422 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Hey, all.  Please - when you stick [OT] onto a post that hasn't been
marked [OT] previously - put the [OT] marking at the *END* of the
Subject line, not the beginning - it makes people like myself who sort
posts by subject line, a *lot* happier, as then I don't have to scroll
up and down about a half-jillion times to read posts in sequential or
semi-sequential order...  If everything sorts in some reasonable sort of
order, it makes it lost easier to track each thread!

If you change the subject line completely due to the thread wandering,
or if you start a new thread, putting the [OT] at the front of the
subject line is fine; if changing an existing subject, it messes me up
somewhat (And the LAST thing I want or need in my life's more mess!
<G>)

And, o'course, please JUST use [OT], not (OT), <OT>, {OT}, or any other
creative permutation you can come up with - I know you're creative,
please just show that creativity in other ways =)

 Mark


'[admin] repeated posts'
2000\04\03@122458 by Alan B Pearce
face picon face
I have received several old posts repeated again. Have others received these?

The symptom is not a whole bunch of posts together as a block, but rather an
occasional one now and then. I have not gone through the messages to see if they
all occurred in a block together originally, but could possibly do that if
required.

Also the messages seem to arrive in isolation, i.e. it does not seem to be the
arrival of another message which triggers the list server to send a repeated
post, although I guess it is not impossible that another post causes it to go
into a background task which may take some time to actually send a message.

'[OT] Evolution & Creationism [ADMIN][KILL THREAD]'
2000\04\03@163804 by James Michael Newton

picon face
I've been monitoring this thread closely and was impressed by how
informative and non-personal it seemed to be. But it is apparently bothering
people, and it is something that we don't allow on the list.

Next post on this subject gets the poster automatically kicked off the list.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
RemoveMEjamesnewtonspam.....piclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] Bouncing messages from roland.wintsch@port'
2000\04\10@114632 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
I'm getting the following message after every submission to the piclist:

User mailbox exceeds allowed size: spamroland.wintsch@spam@spamportable-shop.ch

I imagine s/he left a few days ago and didn't turn off his/her subscription, or
something to that effect...

Probably needs to be set to no messages for awhile.

-Adam

2000\04\10@132220 by Quitt, Walter

flavicon
face
Me too.....

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Adam Davis [adavisTakeThisOuTspamUBASICS.COM]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 8:44 AM
To: .....PICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [ADMIN] Bouncing messages from EraseMEroland.wintschspamKILLspamportable-shop.ch


I'm getting the following message after every submission to the piclist:

User mailbox exceeds allowed size: roland.wintschEraseMEspamportable-shop.ch

I imagine s/he left a few days ago and didn't turn off his/her subscription,
or
something to that effect...

Probably needs to be set to no messages for awhile.

-Adam

2000\04\10@132813 by jamesnewton

face picon face
I went ahead and unsubscribed him. He can get back on after fixing the
account if he wants.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
EraseMEjamesnewtonspamspamBeGonepiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org


{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] Marking subject lines'
2000\04\11@133043 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Well, it may be nice to have everything nicely categorized by using the subject
line.  But as long as you have new people subscribing to the list without
reading the FAQ or even the welcome message, and as long as you have people who
forget even to put the [OT] up, I don't know that you'll get too far.

But be of good cheer.  We've pretty much gotten rid of all the rogue forms of
[OT], and people are using [ADMIN] when needed.  There aren't any other
confusing terms.  It looks like we just have to take a little at a time, and it
may be a good time to start using [EE].  I would suggest that [OT] be enforced,
but [EE] just become a suggestion.  People can add it to subjects if they want
slightly more exposure for [OT] posts, but we don't need to reprimand them if
they don't include it.

So now we have:
[ADMIN]  for administration questions, suggestions,
        etc which pertain to everyone on the list
[OT]     Items which have little or no conection to
        the PICLIST, but are asked by its members
        anyway.
[OT][EE] Items which have little connection to PICs,
        but may be of interest to electrical
        engineers.

Personally I think the list is doing very well.  I don't feel like I'm wading
through a lot of dross to get to the good stuff.

-Adam

Never knock on Death's door:
Ring the doorbell and run (he hates that).

James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\04\11@185229 by David E Arnold

picon face
Just an idea:

How about the opposite of current system.

In order to get people to put [OT] in the subject lines, how about having the
listserver
automatically do it by default unless a person specifically puts a tag that
indicates
not to.  That way if people really want a response on a PIC related question or
issue(
and it matters to them, they'll have to enter this flag so the listserver will
not mark the
post as [OT].

-Dave







"M. Adam Davis" <TakeThisOuTadavisspamTakeThisOuTUBASICS.COM> on 04/11/2000 10:27:35 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

To:   spamPICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:    (bcc: David E Arnold/SYBASE)
Subject:  [ADMIN] Marking subject lines




Well, it may be nice to have everything nicely categorized by using the subject
line.  But as long as you have new people subscribing to the list without
reading the FAQ or even the welcome message, and as long as you have people who
forget even to put the [OT] up, I don't know that you'll get too far.

But be of good cheer.  We've pretty much gotten rid of all the rogue forms of
[OT], and people are using [ADMIN] when needed.  There aren't any other
confusing terms.  It looks like we just have to take a little at a time, and it
may be a good time to start using [EE].  I would suggest that [OT] be enforced,
but [EE] just become a suggestion.  People can add it to subjects if they want
slightly more exposure for [OT] posts, but we don't need to reprimand them if
they don't include it.

So now we have:
[ADMIN]  for administration questions, suggestions,
        etc which pertain to everyone on the list
[OT]     Items which have little or no conection to
        the PICLIST, but are asked by its members
        anyway.
[OT][EE] Items which have little connection to PICs,
        but may be of interest to electrical
        engineers.

Personally I think the list is doing very well.  I don't feel like I'm wading
through a lot of dross to get to the good stuff.

-Adam

Never knock on Death's door:
Ring the doorbell and run (he hates that).

James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'Serial communication Now:attachements [ADMIN][MARK'
2000\04\13@163141 by jamesnewton

face picon face
This twist of this thread is very off topic and always generates a ton of
responses.

Everyone, Please mark this with [OT] in the subject line if you want to talk
about it.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spam_OUTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamKILLspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org


{Original Message removed}

'PICLIST FAQ [ADMIN]'
2000\04\13@171128 by jamesnewton

face picon face
WELCOME TO THE PICLIST.COM/.ORG FAQ

The PICList is a collection of people interested in the Microchip PIC
processor who have requested that email sent to the PICList email address be
forwarded to them.

There are about 2000 people subscribed to the PICList (as of  20000401) so
sending a post to the PICList results in a lot of people spending the time
required to read your message or question. They would all appreciate it if
you would search the PIC FAQ at
http://www.piclist.com/faq
and search the Archives at
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
or
www.infosite.com/%7Ejkeyzer/piclist/index.html
before posting a question. If you are just starting with the PIC
microcontroller, please read the Beginners checklist at
http://www.piclist.com/begin

Many of our members enjoy reading posts on topics other than the PIC but
that may be interesting to PICers (engineering, ideas, technical jokes,
etc...) but many others do not wish to spend the time required to read these
off-topic posts. They would appreciate it if you would put the text [OT] at
the end of the subject line of your post so that they know its not about
PICs. If you are replying to a post that is not about PICs and notice that
it is not marked [OT], please edit the subject line to add that flag.

Remember that the PICList is a world wide thing and that if you are talking
about an item that may change with physical location you should mention
yours (at least country and maybe state or province).

Q : How do I send messages to the list
A : Step by step:

First, you check the PIC FAQ.  and search the Archives. to get an instant
answer without wasting anyone's time.

Second, you must be subscribed to the list to post to the list and you must
send from the email address you subscribed from.

Third you must compose a message to RemoveMEPICLIST@spam@spamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU that will elicit
help.
If its not about PICs directly, that's ok, post it anyway but put [OT] at
the end of the subject line.

The subject should be as complete a description of the problem as is
possible in 60 characters or so. Compress and distill.

The body should:
- be in plain text, not HTML.
- be a detailed description of the problem in as few words as possible.
- If you have a web page, post a verbose description of the problem to it
and put the full URL of that page in your post (include the ) along
with a summary of the problem.
- include what you are trying to do (overall), what you expected to have
happen at this point, what you are seeing, and how you are seeing it (what
test equipment, etc...)
- Include specific part numbers, code snippets (not the full source,
please), and signal descriptions.

Finally, read your message over again, check the subject line and press
send.

You will not see your message echoed on the PIClist, and it may take more
than a day before anyone responds since most people only read their PICList
mail once a day and they are all over the world. If no one responds after a
week, read the rest of this page,  especially the general list guidelines,
rethink your post and add a "Nobody responded to my last post, what am I
doing wrong?" to the end and send it again.

Q : How do I send commands (like to subscribe/unsubscribe)?
A : To send a command, send it in the body of an email to the list server
address :
RemoveMELISTSERVRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
For instance, to get off the list, you send the command :
SIGNOFF PICLIST to LISTSERVTakeThisOuTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sending SIGNOFF PICLIST in the body of a post to the PICLIST@... address
will result in about 2000 people being notified that you want to leave the
PICList and the emails will keep right on coming.

Q : Where must the command be in my email?
A : In the message body. The subject line is ignored.

Q : What commands are available ?
A : List of ListServer commands is available at
http://www.piclist.com/commands

Q: Is the list moderated, how do I contact the moderators,  and what are the
guidelines?
A: The list is administered, not moderated by Mark Willis, James Newton ,
Mike Werner and Jory Bell (who setup and controls the list). Posting
messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
PICList-RequestTakeThisOuTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all
admins who then read your post & try to help. They have now published
guidelines at this site. Admin's guide the list by asking that people mark
off topic messages with [OT] in the subject line (not OT, <OT>, {OT] or off
topic) and PICLIST related but not PIC related messages with [Admin] so that
people who do not wish to read these postings can filter them out via their
email programs. Non-PIC related threads are common and the volume of
messages can be several hundred per week. Several respected, valuable, and
otherwise caring people have, in the past, unsubscribed due to a temporary
peak in the volume of fluff and bad attitudes. When bickering and
non-technical posts reach a fever pitch, James, Mark and even Jory have been
known to step in and put a stop to it by warning people and throwing them
off the list. Admin note: use del piclist spamemailTakeThisOuTspamdomain.com. If you want to
be accepted and get the most help, please read some general list guidelines
at
http://www.piclist.com/../listguide

Text only posts (no HTML email) are preferred, subject not directly related
to the PIC should be marked with [OT] at the end of the subject line (maybe
add [EE] if it's still of interest to Electronic Engineers), and messages of
hatred or intolerance will get you kicked off the list, period. Please
forward suggestion or complaints about the list to the list admins at
.....PICList-RequestspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU rather than to all the list members. Product
information about your PIC related product is fine, but blatant spam is not.
Advertise your company, product or site in a one or two line addition to
your signature at the bottom of your posts.

Q. Is the PICList a good place to ask for / post cracks for PIC related
software?
A. Remember that the PICList is a public forum. Asking for a crack will
typically get you nothing but advice to pay for what you get. In the past,
cracks posted to the list have evoked mixed responses ranging from offlist
threats, to onlist thanks and have started some flame threads about hacking
and cracking and software licenses and prices in general which always end up
being a waste of bandwidth. List members have been known to forward cracking
related threads to the maker of the product being cracked with full header
information (including your email address, and who your ISP is).

We can't stop people from posting things that are not legal. We do not
approve of software piracy and will remove from the list individuals who
show a flagrant disregard for the rights (and efforts) of others. We will
forcibly kill flame threads that have no bearing on PICs and are not
appropriate to the list.

Jory says: "...[we can't prevent] PICList people [from pirating] software,
since that is everyone's own choice, ... i don't want to police such things,
but please keep in mind the nature of your communication, and the nature of
a public list and decide what is appropriate."

Lets keep cracking off the PICList, there are plenty of other lists for
that, and as always, please mark anything not directly related to PIC
engineering with an [OT] at the end of the subject line.


Q: Can I advertise my product on the PICList?
A: Yes and no. Read on:

SOLVING PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PRODUCT
:> Great! Responding to a question or a request for help with an
advertisement for your product which is a solution to the original post is
no problem. That type of advertising is "a good thing" as it A) solves the
posters problem B) encourages PIC related businesses C) Keeps people who do
PICs for a living involved in the list. D) sometimes it triggers a "hey, I
can do that for a lot less" response that leads to a healthy competition for
the advertisers.
Don, Tony, Myke and others have been called on the carpet for advertising
before and list members have resoundingly stood up for them.

Before you buy anything, don't be afraid to ask others on the list for
confirmation that a product recommended by the mfg. as a solution to your
problem is a good choice. List members will not hesitate to speak up <GRIN>
and the manufacturers are expected to be thick skinned.


SIGNATURE LINES
:) Good: Adding a line or two to your signature (and the "PIC/PICList FAQ:
http://www.piclist.com " line doesn't count! <GRIN>) about what you do, buy,
sell or believe in is also no problem. The only possible exceptions are
political and/or religious flame starters and spiteful messages.

PRODUCT NEWS
:| Maybe: Posting News or information about your product (unsolicited) to
the list. Well... ok... *IF* its a product that people on the PICList will
really use. The only trick is that in the eyes of the poster, the fact that
his new hydroponic plant management system has a PIC somewhere in it
qualifies it for the PICList even though he hasn't published a schematic,
code or even any description of the design process and its never been
mentioned on the list before. On the other hand, if the product actually A)
does something to a PIC or for a PIC (like a programmer or a simulator
etc...) B) Uses a PIC and has engineering details published or C) was
designed with help from the list (e.g. we all heard about the problems and
solutions involved in the making of it), we don't see any problem.

THE FINAL WORD
:{ Listen: The final judgment of what is appropriate is left in the hands of
the PICList administrators, if *they* feel a post is inappropriate, they
WILL take action with at least a warning, followed by removal and or barring
the offender from the list, at their option, on this as in any
transgression.
Q: Is the list archived?
A: Yes. Please use it:

Since December 1998 up to realtime with a full search engine at
www.infosite.com/~jkeyzer/piclist/index.html
(NOTE: this site has been password protected to prevent mineing by SPAMers
web robots for email addresses but the username is piclist and the password
is piclist)

Since March 1996 to realtime with a time range but subject line only search
engine at http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/.

The server also archives the list - as of 4 January 2000 the server contains
archives back to April 1998. To get a list of the archives send the command
"index piclist" to .....listservTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu. (Thanks Mike!)

Q: Are these archives searchable?
A: Yes, they are. The two webpages have search engines on the page. The
direct server interface also provides search capability by email. To use the
email interface, compose a new message addressed to RemoveMElistservspamspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu.
In the body of the message, create your search parameters like this:

search keyword in listname
where keyword is the word or words (seperated by spaces) that you wish to
search for and listname would be PICList.

You can further limit the search to a specific time frame by adding the
phrase

from date1
to begin the search at date1. You can also specify an ending date by adding

to date2
The full command would then be:

search keyword in listname from date1 to date2
Two other limiters that can be used are

where subject contains text
and

where sender contains text
These limiters contain the search to messages that have certain subject
lines or were sent by specific individuals, respectively.

[Thanks to Mike Werner]

Q: Why don't I see my own posts to the PICLIST?
A: This is the default setting on the list server. To changes this so that a
copy of your post is sent back to you from the list, send the command:
SET PICLIST REP to STOPspamLISTSERVEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get the list in "digest" format?
A: Yes. To change to digest mode, just send the command SET PICList DIGest
to LISTSERVspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU. To get back to individual emails, send the
command SET PICList NODIGests to LISTSERV@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get only the posts that interest me in digest form?
Q: On my slow internet connection, it takes forever to download all the
email and I'm only interested in a few anyway. How can I keep using the
list?
A: Using the Index mode of the PIC List. [thanks to Mike Werner]

First of all, you must tell the server that you want the index mode for your
subscription. To do this, send a message to spam_OUTLISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU with the
command "set piclist index" (without the quotes, of course) as the sole
content in the body of the message. From then on you will receive a daily
index of postings to the list, looking something like this:

Index  Date  Size Poster and subject
-----  ----  ---- ------------------
043066 10/22   18 From:    Mike Werner <reznaeous at EARTHLINK.NET>
                 Subject: Re: [OT] Bullet Proof Circuit... was: Survey...
What
                          is an
Except that there would be a whole lot more entries than that. The headers
are fairly self-explanatory, but as a quick once over they are: Index is a
server assigned sequential number for reference purposes, Date is the date
the message was received by the server, Size is the number of lines in the
message not counting headers, and then Poster and Subject is just that.

To retrieve the full message, all you need do is hit reply, quote the
original message (most mailers will do that either automatically or provide
a button to do so), and then edit out the messages that you are not
interested in. Once you have done that, send the message. In a few minutes
you will receive one digest-style message containing just the messages you
wanted.

Q: I'm going on vacation / don't want to be involved in the PICList for a
while. Should I unsubscribe and then re-subscribe when I get back?
A: You can, but this will reset any configuration related to your account.
To preserve your settings, send the NOMAIL command: SET PICList NOMAIL to
LISTSERVspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU as you leave and then send the MAIL command: SET
PICList MAIL to spamLISTSERVspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU when you return. Also, consider
setting digest mode (above) to continue getting PICList posts in a more
compact form.

Q: I've been on the PICList for a while and suddenly I'm not getting any of
the 50 odd messages per day that normally come in:
A: Sometimes, on the Internet (being the way it is), mail doesn't get
through for a while - it does get through eventually. Situations happen like
your mail being handed off to a machine which then gets disconnected due to
some problem, be it "backhoe fade" or a hardware crash, things usually get
fixed up in a couple days. Usually the traffic all shows up in one HUGE
clump, some hours or days later on, whenever that server gets fixed or
re-booted. It's annoying to us admins, as we have to tell the difference
between not being on the list, being on the list but set to NoMail, or the
above, or other problems that can happen. Sometimes, someone's ISP falls
onto the RBL (Realtime Black hole List - an anti-SPAM list, this happened to
MY ISP recently), or the PICList gets mistakenly ID'ed as a "SPAM" source by
someone's ISP due to all the traffic, and all PICList traffic is filtered
into the "circular binary file." Rarely, you get a fast response back, but
the mail isn't getting through, despite the options the list server's set to
looking like it should - When THAT happens, I suggest people unsub &
re-subscribe, usually that fixes things. Sometimes just setting to digest &
then regular mail a few seconds later can fix it.

The usual test I suggest is to send a "Query PICList" message to the
"PICList List Server Command Input Port" at spamLISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, if you
don't get a response back from that address in 5 minutes or less, mail's
dropping through an event horizon someplace between your ISP and the list
server, or filtering is happening, or someone's on the RBL & is being
filtered out. This is a good time to e-mail the list admins at
KILLspamPICList-Requestspam_OUTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU and let us look into it.

Q: My email address is changing. How can I forward my PICList emails?
A: If you're moving to a new ISP, you can send in the command "CHange
PICList newemailaddress@newISP", to LISTSERVspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU to move your
subscription. If you are no longer able to send email from your old ISP this
will not work, so you will need to contact an administrator at
spamBeGonePICList-RequestspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: I want to post to the PICList from my home email account and from work.
When I try to post from an account from which I am not subscribed to the
PICList I get a "rejected posting" message and if I subscribe from both
email accounts, I end up with two copies of every post. What can I do?
A: Subscribe from both accounts then send the NOMAIL command from the email
address where you do not wish to receive (but do wish to send) posts.

Q: I'm having (some other) problem with the PICList
A: [There are] Multiple ways to handle any type of List problems [says Mark]

Send a "Query PICList" message, to the PICList List Server 'Command Input
port' at <@spam@LISTSERVspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, and forward the resulting e-mail you
receive in return, to an Admin. with what's wrong; This gives me more info.
Should get that response quickly, so if no response in a half hour, let me
know that you tried. If this happens, it's a router problem. If you send
such a message & get a delivery error, though, I want to know as I need to
contact MIT or something (unlikely though.)

Unsubscribe from the PICList and subscribe again. Yeah, I know, it's a pain!
But sometimes the only way, seemingly, to fix some things (Methinks L-Soft
has a bug to stomp somewhere in the Options setting/clearing code - for
their credit, they seem to have most of them pretty well squished!) You'll
have to then set your options again, which is a pain. I think (haven't
tested yet) that you can put the options all into one e-mail, too, i.e.
Subscribe on the first line, Set PICList Mail on the second, and even Set
PICList Repro on the third {Now the default}, Set PICList NoACK on the
fourth {Again the default} if you wanted. (I don't mind people asking for
help, either, especially when they cannot unsub an old address due to an ISP
change or ISP name change, it takes me 3 seconds to unsub people, so just
make sure you ask me to unsub the CORRECT ADDRESS, lest I unsub the wrong
one!)

To get at old posts, either jump to
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/
and read there, or, you can send the command "Index PICList" to the PICList
List Server 'Command Input port' at <KILLspamLISTSERVspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, which will
get an index of old PICList messages for you. I don't think the list server
keeps all messages ever posted, but it does keep some. You can then order
individual messages by using "GETPOST PicList Ref#1 Ref#2 ..." etc., where
Ref#1 is a reference number in the Index you just received.

Q: How can I sort email from the PICList to separate it from my other email?
A: Most email clients will allow you to setup a rule for moving PICList
email into another folder. It always comes from KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU. If
your email program doesn't support that or if you want to keep it all
together but still easily see what emails are from the PICList, you can turn
on a subject sort tag by sending the command SET PICLIST SUBJECTHDR to
LISTSERVKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU. This will insert the tag [PICLIST] in the subject
line of every post and remove it from your replies to the list for other
members who have turned this feature off (the default setting). You can
disable it by sending SET PICLIST NOSUBJECTHDR to LISTSERVspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: How is the PICList like a PIC?
A: The PICList list server has 3 "I/O Ports".

Posting messages to the "PICList Mail Distribution port", at
PICListspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all 1800+
members of the PICList (Those who don't have NoMail set), who then read your
post and make snide comments if you posted to the wrong address.
Posting messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
.....PICList-RequestRemoveMEspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all
admins of the PICList {Jory, Mark, & James, right now}, who then read your
post & try to help.
Posting messages to the "PICList Command Input Port", at
TakeThisOuTLISTSERVKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be treated as a command by
the listserve software, THIS and ONLY THIS is the address to send
Unsubscribe requests, Set NoMail requests, and so forth. The listserve
software ONLY listens here for commands, you can send them to those other
"ports" all you want, and all you'll get is a copy back from the machine,
telling you you've made a mistake.
Same as on a PIC chip, using the wrong port for the wrong purpose may result
in unintended consequences, like annoyed list neighbors or flustrated
admins.

And finally:

Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb?

A: Exactly Five Hundred:

1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb
has been changed
7 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently.
4 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. (one post in HTML)
1 admin to post a message about not posting in HTML
17 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing
1 to post an unsubscribble message to the list (rather than to the list
server)
1 to respond to that with a witty comment about t-shirts
1 to notice that some message in the signature line of one of the messages
offends him and post a flaming rebuttal
1 One Admin to flame the other about SPAMming the list with pointers to his
PICList FAQ resulting in a flurry of off list inter-admin posts that
distract the admins just long enough to allow:
463 to pile into the flames
This FAQ maintained by Jory Bell, Mark Willis and James Newton. Last update
200004131355

Links:
http://www.piclist.com/faq
http://www.piclist.com/projects
http://www.microchip.com MicroChip Technologies
http://www.dontronics.com
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/pic/ Ian Harries Documents & Information
http://techref.massmind.org/microchip/piclinks.htm David Tait's Links to
Internet PIC Resources
http://digiserve.com/takdesign FAQ?
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/ Archives
http://www.myke.com Myke Predko's Microcontroller Reference Page PICMicro
Page
http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html - Tjaart van der Walts home page.
http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/pic/ Eric Smith personal page of consultant
http://www.dattalo.com Tweaking a PIC - Scott Dattalo software for PICs
(sin, sqrt, log, bcd, parity, debounce, pwm, count, )
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~sampowel/ Sam Powels PIC Archive
http://www.sq-1.com Square One Electronics PIC'n Up the Pace, PIC'n
Techniques, Serial PIC'n books
http://www.rentron.com Rentron Projects Tutorial
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/3656/posit/posit.html - Tiny
RTOS
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Cable/7772/ - Basic Stamp VM for '84
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/5807/ links
http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/pic.htm links
http://business.vsnl.com/chiptech/ Chip Technologies - kits, book, sample
code/applications
http://www.bytecraft.com/ Byte Craft C compiler, Also: A Touch Sensitive
Circuit, Software A/D and D/A Converters, Non-Linear Data Transformations
http://kitsrus.com
http://virtuaweb.com/picprog/
www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/9276/downld.htm
http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7/posc.html PIC based O-Scope
http://www.geocities.com/kkaarvik/gameboy.html Ken's Gameboy and PIC
Projects Page
http://www.tech-tools.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Network/3656/sb/index.htm SmartBow.
Software is a way to easilly create an HTML-document in IE 4.0 on Win 95/98
with a set of Virtual Controls (LEDs, buttons, displays etc.) connected to
you code running on Microchip., Scenix. or any other microprocessos. It may
be used to monitor and control your software running on a microprocessor and
to create almost run-time debug environment. It registers as a service and
communicates between the serial port and a set of Java Applets that
implement the visual controls on the HTML page.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pbhandary/
http://members.tripod.com/~mdileo/snippic.html
http://www.circuitcellar.com/pastissues/articles/richey110/text.htm Using a
PIC for speech.
http://websites.ntl.com/~matthew.rowe/micros/ PIC and AVR beginners page
(good!)
http://www.markworld.com/microtools.html excellent math and servos
http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/lab/6584 Pic links and a nice
switch (circuit breaker) tester project.
http://www.midcoast.com.au/~paulb/faq_indx.html Dr. Paul B. Webster's little
known "gottchas"
http://www.idcomm.com/personal/ottosen/

Please let us know if we are missing anything.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspam_OUTspamspamBeGonepiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

'PICFun SPAM? [ADMIN]'
2000\04\17@095608 by jamesnewton

picon face
Did anyone else receive a SPAM from Yong NH [pycorim at adam.com.au] about
PICFun?

Please DO NOT reply to the list! Reply directly to me. In fact, just click
here:
jamesnewton.....spam@spam@piclist.com?subjet=I+got+spammed+by+PICFun

If you got the email but don't consider it SPAM and you don't want me to
report them to everybody I can find including their ISP and bar them from
the list.
@spam@jamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com?subjet=I+got+spammed+by+PICFun+But+I+liked+it

And just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me why someone would spam list
members when they could just sign on and post a message about their pic
related product with no repercussions? Also, why not use a spell checker.

---
James Newton spam_OUTjamesnewtonspamBeGonespamspamBeGonegeocities.com 1-619-652-0593
http://techref.massmind.org NEW! FINALLY A REAL NAME!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)

'[admin] www.piclist.com down?'
2000\04\17@100236 by jamesnewton

picon face
Blue Screen of Death sometime Sunday. Its up now. http://www.piclist.org will be a
mirror backup site very soon.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

-----Original Message-----
From: JB [TakeThisOuTjbKILLspamspamci.glenwood-springs.co.us]
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:32
To: RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamspamgeocities.com
Subject: [admin] http://www.piclist.com down?


Site doesn't respond, from here anyway. Hopefully you're the one to notify
about this, in which case you probably already know, but just in case..

JB

'[Admin] Re: Todd is SPAMming us was[OT] To those l'
2000\04\19@201926 by Nathan Hendler

flavicon
face
While you guys are nitpicking... shouldn't [Admin] have been added to this
threads subject?  har har.

Nathan Hendler

On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, James Michael Newton wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

'[Admin] [OT] Spamming and Spamcop/Samspade'
2000\04\20@125249 by William K. Borsum

flavicon
face
<x-flowed>Just curious how these two URL's work??
Don't get a lot of junk mail any more--but what i do get is irritating
beyond belief.  Would sincerely love to return the "favor" and create some
havoc at the other end, or find some sort of filter that catches all of it
on the way in.
Kelly


At 04:55 PM 4/19/00, you wrote:
> >
> > If you want to do the RIGHT THING (IMHO) use
> > http://www.spamcop.net
> >   or
> > http://www.samspade.com
> >  to automatically report him to everyone from his ISP to the blacklist
> orgs.

William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<STOPspamborsumTakeThisOuTspamdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

</x-flowed>

'[ADMIN][OT]Todd is SPAMming us'
2000\04\20@131408 by Barry King

flavicon
face
I just got my copy this morning!  Oh joy.  Its SPAM because,

1) Its unsolicited (I didn't ASK for info here or on his site.)
2) Its a mass mailing
3) The senders identity is purposely hidden in the headers (why would
a legitimate business do that????)

Further more,
4) He hasn't apologized
5) He hasn't stopped, even after the uproar.

If he had just posted the exact same product announcement to the
list, we would not be screaming, LARTing and complaining.  Posting
announcements that might resonable be of interest to the list members
is specifically allowed.  If you don't follow the rules, you deserve
all the ire, boycotts, and LARTs you get.

------------
Barry King, KA1NLH
NRG Systems "Measuring the Wind's Energy"
http://www.nrgsystems.com
Check out the accumulated (PIC) wisdom of the ages at:
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.org

'[Admin] [OT] Spamming and Spamcop/Samspade'
2000\04\20@132023 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
I use samspade in manual mode - he does have a Win32 app there but I
haven't used it so cannot comment;  Steve (who runs SamSpade) would know
<G>  He's a good guy, will usually answer questions in fairly short
times.

For manual mode, you look up the headers, need to use Verbose headers
mode for that - find the IP addresses (starting hunting from the top
down for all non-AOL users - I'm told AOL does headers differently.  You
go downwards until you find a huge discrepancy, or, reach the end of the
Received-from lines.)  Enter the IP addresses, in turn, into the
"WhoIs/TraceRoute" dialog box - I click all 3 dialog boxes and then hit
"Go" (Doing all this from memory, it's pretty simple.)  You then send a
complaint letter to the Spammers' ISP and DNS server holders, and in
some cases their ISP's ISP (I can help off-list better on how to do
this.)  You also do the same with the SPAMmers' web pages, complaining
to the DNS servers and web page ISP and their ISP, and to anything you
can find on their web page - use the safe browser on Sam Spade or on
Anonymizer.Com, if some joker's using a Merchant CC account you DO want
to bug the provider of that account so they'll likely be shut off from
being able to make money.

If you send me headers you're stuck on, I'll help, or you can join any
of a number of Anti-Spammer training web pages (FREE, CAUCE, etc.) and
e-mail lists, and there're certainly other people on the list who know
how to track SPAMmers.  Takes about 5 minutes to write a "LART" once you
get the hang of it - The first ones won't be THAT fast, of course.  And
there are tricks etc., like SMI8.6 relays that destroy all
trace-ability, so all you can do there is ask the relay's owner to close
their relay - You will have to learn more than I've written here,
obviously.  It's good knowledge to put on your Resume' - "I can read
e-mail headers" <G>

 Mark

William K. Borsum wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'Question: C vs Asm [ADMIN][KILL THREAD]'
2000\04\20@140458 by jamesnewton

face picon face
All right, enough of this....

This is not on topic for PICs in any way. Further posts on this thread need
to be marked with [OT] at the end of the subject line.

First warning.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
EraseMEjamesnewtonEraseMEspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN][OT]Todd is SPAMming us'
2000\04\20@141111 by Andrew Kunz

flavicon
face
Strange.  The 4 copies I got all said "Todd Peterson" (whom I know as e-labs)
and had e-labs in the "from."

Andy










Barry King <barryTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamNRGSYSTEMS.COM> on 04/20/2000 01:49:00 PM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTspamBeGonespamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      RemoveMEPICLIST.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: [ADMIN][OT]Todd is SPAMming us








I just got my copy this morning!  Oh joy.  Its SPAM because,

1) Its unsolicited (I didn't ASK for info here or on his site.)
2) Its a mass mailing
3) The senders identity is purposely hidden in the headers (why would
a legitimate business do that????)

Further more,
4) He hasn't apologized
5) He hasn't stopped, even after the uproar.

If he had just posted the exact same product announcement to the
list, we would not be screaming, LARTing and complaining.  Posting
announcements that might resonable be of interest to the list members
is specifically allowed.  If you don't follow the rules, you deserve
all the ire, boycotts, and LARTs you get.

------------
Barry King, KA1NLH
NRG Systems "Measuring the Wind's Energy"
http://www.nrgsystems.com
Check out the accumulated (PIC) wisdom of the ages at:
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.org

'Todd Peterson's Apology - NOT! [ADMIN][SPAM VOTE]'
2000\04\20@154134 by jamesnewton

face picon face
That was not an apology... it was just the sort of twisting of the facts
that you would expect from a SPAMmer.

Isn't it amazing how SPAMmers always feel that * they * were treated
unfairly?

Given his attitude and the likely continuation of his sales tactics, I would
guess that the PICList will be the first of several lists that Mr. Peterson
will be removed from (the ISP's customer list, the BBB no complaints list,
etc...)

I'd rather see Mr Peterson ON the list and post a message with an [OT] (or
maybe [AD]) than send thousands of private emails to people who's only
desire was to be a part of the PICList. At least then, they could filter the
[OT] out.

I wonder if he would be willing to drop his "private email" list in return
for re-entry to the list? If I trusted him (which I don't) I'd suggest
sending the PICList membership email list through the remove.....spam.....elabinc.com
address.

We shouldn't be the target of his un-filterable, out of left field, HTML,
virus attached, personal gain only motivated, bandwidth and time wasting
emails just because we want to participate in learning about PICs, helping
others, and having a nice group of people to interact with.

Or am I just too hot under the collar to see this clearly? I'd like to hear
some feed back from the list. Please don't send it to the list but instead
just click on one of the below:

spam_OUTjamesnewtonEraseMEspam.....piclist.com?subject=SPAM+nuke+it> if you feel as I do that all of it needs to stop. Or
EraseMEjamesnewtonKILLspamspamspampiclist.com?subject=SPAM+allow+[AD]+on+list
if you don't mind hearing about products but would like to get them via the
list rather than by private email. Or
RemoveMEjamesnewtonSTOPspamspamEraseMEpiclist.com?subject=SPAM+calm+down> if you feel like Todd was dealt with unfairly and should be allowed to
remain on the list while sending emails to the list members addresses.

After all, my personal feeling are one thing and my job as a list admin is
another.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spam_OUTjamesnewtonspamspamRemoveMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'From Peru Virus [ADMIN][VIRUS]'
2000\04\22@141456 by James Michael Newton

picon face
Based on circumstantial evidence, I would have a hard time saying that this
is your fault. I would guess that you received an email from a person at
elabs.com regarding the availability of new parts, and did not have your
security settings up to date or activated in outlook. elabs got your email
address from the piclist membership list and sent you the email directly.
They have since apologized (privately to the list admins, not really
publicly) and promised never to do this again.

Your quickness to A) Apologize B) Look up and post instructions for fixing
the problem and C) a link to an information source indicate that you are a
good example of the type of people who, with a bit more experience <WINK>
make the internet a good place to be.

Unfortunately, the PICList does provide an easy system for spreading email
born virii. I will start trying to put together  some sort of advice in the
text that gets emailed to new members on protecting against infection.
PLEASE be patient as it will take some time even with HELP from MIKE, and
MARK <read the capitalized parts of the previous text>. <GRIN>

In light of recent events, I have to apologize for not saying this sooner...

EVERYONE PLEASE CHECK YOUR SYSTEM FOR THIS VIRUS!
http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
spamBeGonejamesnewtonEraseMEspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] [OT] Spamming and Spamcop/Samspade'
2000\04\22@204754 by Mark Newland

flavicon
face
www.samspade.com isn't working for me

"William K. Borsum" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2000\04\22@210905 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Quite true - I've been trying to reach Steve (who runs the site) about
that, as I have another 10pins.com SPAM to LART;  I didn't get to
posting to the list about it yet.  While his site usually works quite
well, right now it's quite DOA (I get 97 bytes and it hangs, error
messages, or some other unusual, "bad" result.)  Give it a day, Steve
will fix it.  I've e-mailed him from 2 different e-mail accounts so he
should know soon if not already (I'll post to a mutual friend shortly if
no reply from him.)  Could just be us Seattle-area PICsters that're
having problems.

 Mark

Mark Newland wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'From Peru Virus [ADMIN][VIRUS]'
2000\04\22@222738 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 11:12 AM 4/22/00 -0700, you wrote:

>
>In light of recent events, I have to apologize for not saying this sooner...
>
>EVERYONE PLEASE CHECK YOUR SYSTEM FOR THIS VIRUS!
>http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html

Since no one has said it yet, that I noticed, it might be worth mentioning
that this virus unleashes its payload on the *first of the month* at 5pm,
so just because you don't *seem* to be affected doesn't mean that it isn't
in there, and there is only a week or so to go before it's Kaktime.

Best regards,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speff@spam@spaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

2000\04\22@230954 by artky1k

flavicon
face
I dump all unsolicited emails with attachements-NO EXCEPTIONS.

Is this virus a thrreat to me?

Thanks,

Art

On 22 Apr 00, at 22:27, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'[Admin] [OT] Spamming and Spamcop/Samspade'
2000\04\22@234137 by James Michael Newton

picon face
spamcop is a more commercial and more stable service which is why I use it.
Mark uses samspade and will undoubtedly have more information on the outage.
Either will get the job done.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
KILLspamjamesnewtonspamspam_OUTpiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\23@070244 by Martin G. McCormick

flavicon
face
       We've got a problem, all right.  I tried the address of

http://www.samspade.com

from North Central Oklahoma and the error that I got was simply that
the domain name system couldn't find any host by that name,
specifically http://www.samspade.com.  I then used whois to find out about
the domain of samspade.com and did find a record in the San Francisco
area.  It lists domain name servers for his domain so I did a nslookup
for http://www.samspade.com through rome.netjet.com which is his primary
domain name server.  That's basically going to the horse's mouth for
the information.  I got:

Server:  rome.netjet.com
Address:  209.24.233.242

*** rome.netjet.com can't find http://www.samspade.com: Non-existent host/domain

       This means that, for some reason, the records that might point
us to the site in question are not in the name server that is
officially mapped as being authoritative for samspade.com.  There are
lots of reasons why this might have happened, but that would just be
pure speculation.  That, however, is why you can't get to the site.

       This, by the way, is my day job so I never thought what I do
for OSU would have much value on the PIC list, but I am responsible
for running our domain name servers and am familiar with this kind of
problem.:-)

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group
Mark Willis writes:
>Quite true - I've been trying to reach Steve (who runs the site) about
>that, as I have another 10pins.com SPAM to LART;  I didn't get to
>posting to the list about it yet.  While his site usually works quite
>well, right now it's quite DOA (I get 97 bytes and it hangs, error
>messages, or some other unusual, "bad" result.)  Give it a day, Steve
>will fix it.

2000\04\23@114808 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Try http://samspade.org/, that's working from here, right now.

I don't think Steve supports the www prefix, you could bug him but I
just use the samspade.org address, myself.

The best solution for this sort of situation usually is to try the root
name (as in just using samspade.org) without the bottom level domain
name (i.e. www) - sometimes someone has a main server named
web.domain.tld, or something like that;  www is "usually" what's used
but not the only possibility.

(tld stands for "top level domain", fwiw.)

 Mark

Martin G. McCormick wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'From Peru Virus [OT][VIRUS][ADMIN]'
2000\04\26@141609 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Well, As I posted previously you can use this excellent web page to get
directions about patching and removing.

http://www.sarc.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html

If you have done that exactly, you should be ok. You can look in the sent
mail folder and see if opening the email you sent triggers a reinfection. I
would also really recommend getting a good anti-virus program. $50 or so. I
use Norton. Its also good to keep your system completely up to date with MS
via the windows update site. I have no other information than that.



I've asked for admins and others to help me put together a good
informational page on the PICList FAQ since one of the few bad points of
these lists is the possibility of virus distribution.

I've also been criticized (by a very few and not you Dave) for not doing
enough to prevent virus problems. We (the other Admins mostly) have
investigated what we can do and the list server just isn't... feature
rich... in that area. Promised in future release. (thanks Mike) We are
talking about limiting posts to 250 lines as a way of cutting down on the
possibility of attached programs and as a side effect to prevent super large
posts.

Please let me know (rather than the list) how you feel:
@spam@jamesnewtonEraseMEspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com?subject=SIZE+LIMIT+Yes> RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com?subject=SIZE+LIMIT+No

After thinking about it for a while, I believe that there is a limit to our
responsibility (and to how much time I'm willing to put into this) and that
even if we protected all our members from virus infection, members would
pickup viruses from other sources. The best we can do is educate and empower
members to protect themselves. No vote on that. Deal.

After looking at that
http://www.sarc.com
website, I'm not sure how we could do better. Unless I hear other
suggestions, I'll just add a note that says "watch out for virus infection,
see these sites for more information" and then list the sarc and a few other
good websites. Please send me your favorite anti-virus resource.
RemoveMEjamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com?subject=VIRUS+resource+recommendation


---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
KILLspamjamesnewtonspamspamspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'Production vs. Development [ADMIN][SPLIT THREAD]'
2000\04\27@173513 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Ok, this is getting way out there. If you want to discuss trademark
infringement, the subject line should be "trademarks [OT]"

Future posts on that topic need to have [OT] in the subject line.

This thread is about PIC programmers

First warning.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamjamesnewton.....spamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\04\30@133238 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
There's been an awful LOT of HTML posts to the PICList lately.

That's off charter for this list, folks!

Please just post plain text to this list.  All those paying for the
minute for their phone connection, and those like myself with a limited
sized mailbox, thank those who stay in plain ASCII.

 Mark

'[Admin] piclist thread ordering'
2000\04\30@135557 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
I've looked at some of the threads on the piclist "website",
and noticed lots of times individual responses are very much
out of order, by as much as 2-3 days. So, if you follow down
thru a thread by clicking on "next in thread", you often go
all over the place. Am wondering why this is so ???????

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\04\30@175544 by Arthur

flavicon
face
Watch out when responding to a posted item that is in HTML
I have plain text set as option but just found out if you respond to a HTML
you post is converted to HTML
Sorry for this but will check before sending next time

Art

{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] piclist thread ordering'
2000\04\30@183202 by ssemjaco

picon face
I think tihs is due to a number of reasons:

#1 e-mails get their timestamp when you hit the send button in the e-mail editor, not when you actually send it. So, if you type your responds when you recive your e-mail but doesn't actually send it till you check for e-mail next time then your timestamp will be different from the time the server gets the e-mail.

#2 Timezones. This list has got members all over the world, so the time will be set different around the world.

#3 People don't set their computerclock


Regards
Stein Sem-Jacobsen
Norway

> I've looked at some of the threads on the piclist "website",
> and noticed lots of times individual responses are very much
> out of order, by as much as 2-3 days. So, if you follow down
> thru a thread by clicking on "next in thread", you often go
> all over the place. Am wondering why this is so ???????

2000\04\30@185458 by paulb

flavicon
face
Stein Sem-Jacobsen wrote:

> #1 e-mails get their timestamp when you hit the send button in the
> e-mail editor, not when you actually send it.

 Which is exactly as it should be.

 Everyone understands, or should, that not everyone received each reply
at the same time and so some replies *will* be made even though another
reply, not presently visible to the first respondent, has already
covered the territory.

> #2 Timezones. This list has got members all over the world, so the
> time will be set different around the world.

 Does not apply.  The time your browser indicates to you has been
corrected to your own timezone; same should apply to the archive.  The
message itself states the local time, *and* in which timezone that was.

> #3 People don't set their computerclock

 *And* timezone.  There's no answer to that one!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\04\30@190718 by Arthur

flavicon
face
And down to your provider  who delivers late mail *No First and 2nd Class
Stamp* needed.
My provider is having a bad time the amount of compliants they get.
Art
{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\04\30@190928 by David Lions

flavicon
face
Can't the server convert it?

At 10:31 AM 4/30/00 -0700, you wrote:
>There's been an awful LOT of HTML posts to the PICList lately.
>
>That's off charter for this list, folks!
>
>Please just post plain text to this list.  All those paying for the
>minute for their phone connection, and those like myself with a limited
>sized mailbox, thank those who stay in plain ASCII.
>
>  Mark
>
>

David Lions
Lab Technician
Miva Communications
Ph: +61-2-9906-2277
Fax: +61-2-9906-4818

'[Admin] piclist thread ordering'
2000\04\30@194115 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Well, I know about timezones and datelines and clock settings
[mine is correct, BTW], but if you look at the following list
you'll see that somehow Paul Webster got his sunday posting into
the list above my own thursday posting, etc/etc.

And, I realize rank and education does have its privileges [and
that matters of privilege are taken *very* seriously troughout
the former British empire - and not that I am complaining about
this state of affairs], but still I was just wondering.

Maybe it's just *my* postings that are out of line [karma?].
=================

[OT] TRANSPUTERS WF (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 10:06:54 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS M. Adam Davis (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 11:35:09 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS WF (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 11:34:29 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Dan Michaels (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 12:46:51 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS M. Adam Davis (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 13:04:43 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS WF (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 15:04:20 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Wagner Lipnharski (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 19:12:42 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS WF (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 09:19:29 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS M. Adam Davis (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 10:04:35 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS WF (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 10:06:36 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Paul B. Webster VK2BZC (Sun Apr 30 2000 - 01:55:40 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Dan Michaels (Thu Apr 27 2000 - 23:19:10 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS WF (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 09:29:31 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Alan B Pearce (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 00:50:19 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Dan Michaels (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 07:50:33 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] PIC names..wasTRANSPUTERS Lance Allen (Sun Apr 30 2000 - 15:45:02
PDT)
ðRe: [OT] PIC names..wasTRANSPUTERS Dan Michaels (Sun Apr 30 2000 - 16:25:20
PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Dipperstein, Michael (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 09:42:26 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Alan B Pearce (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 09:51:06 PDT)
ðRe: [OT] TRANSPUTERS Dan Michaels (Fri Apr 28 2000 - 10:20:52 PDT)

2000\04\30@215442 by Mike Werner

picon face
On Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 05:39:11PM -0600, Dan Michaels wrote:
> Well, I know about timezones and datelines and clock settings
> [mine is correct, BTW], but if you look at the following list
> you'll see that somehow Paul Webster got his sunday posting into
> the list above my own thursday posting, etc/etc.
>
> And, I realize rank and education does have its privileges [and
> that matters of privilege are taken *very* seriously troughout
> the former British empire - and not that I am complaining about
> this state of affairs], but still I was just wondering.
>
> Maybe it's just *my* postings that are out of line [karma?].

Nope.  What you are seeing is the effect of "threading".
Unfortunately, the way the archive presents its lists, the
threads are not very clear.  However, perhaps I can make it
clear through the following:
[WARNING - view this with a fixed-width font, or it probably ]
[          won't make the least bit of sense.                ]

2706     04/27 WF              (0.8K) [PICLIST] [OT] TRANSPUTERS
                                     |
2707     04/27 M. Adam Davis   (1.2K) |->
                                     | |
2708     04/27 WF              (1.5K) | |->
                                     |
2709     04/27 Dan Michaels    (0.7K) |*>
                                     | |
2710     04/27 M. Adam Davis   (0.2K) | |->
                                     | |
2711     04/27 WF              (0.9K) | |->
                                     |
2712     04/27 Wagner Lipnhars (1.8K) |->
                                     | |
2713     04/28 WF              (2.8K) | |->
                                     |   |
2714     04/28 M. Adam Davis   (0.3K) |   |->
                                     |   | |
2715     04/28 WF              (0.5K) |   | |->
                                     |   |
2716     04/30 Paul B. Webster (0.4K) |   |->
                                     |
2717     04/28 Dan Michaels    (0.5K) |*>
                                     | |
2718     04/28 WF              (0.8K) | |->
                                     |
2719     04/28 Alan B Pearce   (0.2K) |*>
                                     |
2720     04/28 Dan Michaels    (0.7K) |*>
                                     | |
2721     05/01 Lance Allen     (0.6K) | |->Re: [PICLIST] [OT] PIC names..wasTRANSPUTERS
                                     |   |
2722     04/30 Dan Michaels    (0.5K) |   |*>
                                     |
2723     04/28 Dipperstein, Mi (3.5K) |*>
                                     |
2724     04/28 Alan B Pearce   (0.1K) |*>
                                     |
2725     04/28 Dan Michaels    (1.2K) |*>

What I've done here is (try to, anyway) reproduce the way that
the thread goes together.  When a threading mail client sorts
out a batch of messages by thread it will look not only at what
the message's time stamp is, it will also look at what message, if
any, it is *replying* to.  Some email programs show this in a
graphical format - the one I use does.  And what I tried to
reproduce here is an ASCII art picture of the way that the
thread runs.  This is actually nothing more than a slightly
modified copy-and-paste out of the email client that I use.

And so, as you can see the reason that Paul Webster's message
came before yours was simply the result of the threading, and
not anything mysterious or karmic.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
ICQ# 12934898                 |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.


'[Admin] piclist thread ordering'
2000\05\01@002143 by Dan Michaels
flavicon
face
Mike Werner wrote:
..........
>What I've done here is (try to, anyway) reproduce the way that
>the thread goes together.  When a threading mail client sorts
>out a batch of messages by thread it will look not only at what
>the message's time stamp is, it will also look at what message, if
>any, it is *replying* to.  Some email programs show this in a
.........
>And so, as you can see the reason that Paul Webster's message
>came before yours was simply the result of the threading, and
>not anything mysterious or karmic.
>--

Thanks mucho grande, Mike, your diagram sorted it all out [no
pun intended]. So much for my new theory of the privileged
classes.

best regards,
- Dan Michaels

2000\05\01@083513 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>Well, I know about timezones and datelines and clock settings
>[mine is correct, BTW], but if you look at the following list
>you'll see that somehow Paul Webster got his sunday posting into
>the list above my own thursday posting, etc/etc.


I have even higher precedence than Paul.
My postings rate a 2 hour priority over his (along with all other NZ
PICListers).
The sun may never set on the British Empire but it shines here first :-)


     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

>From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))

2000\05\01@103050 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Russell McMahon wrote:
>>Well, I know about timezones and datelines and clock settings
>>[mine is correct, BTW], but if you look at the following list
>>you'll see that somehow Paul Webster got his sunday posting into
>>the list above my own thursday posting, etc/etc.
>
>
>I have even higher precedence than Paul.
>My postings rate a 2 hour priority over his (along with all other NZ
>PICListers).
>The sun may never set on the British Empire but it shines here first :-)
>

Heh, heh, someone did catch my drift after all.

'Fire in the Hole!!! [OT][ADMIN][SEXISM]'
2000\05\01@175421 by jamesnewton

face picon face
(Forgot to add [ADMIN] to the subject line)

Ascribing the characteristics of one individual to an entire gender is
unacceptable in a thinking persons world.

Blaming lack of ability or participation on gender when social bias is
clearly present is also unacceptable.

That sort of thinking is so fundamentally flawed that it boarders on
insanity. I won't be part of a group where that is accepted. Mr. Crowcroft
will leave the PICList or I will. I appreciate the corrective feedback from
a few members, but I'd like to know if anyone else agrees with Mr. Crowcroft
on this point. The list members should decide which way they want this list
to go. Either sexism is not accepted and I will police it, or it is accepted
and I will have a good excuse to stop spending my time on this.

If you feel that women are just not able to handle guns and engineering:
jamesnewton@spam@spamspam_OUTpiclist.com?subject=SEXISM+Fact+of+life

If you feel that making sexist remarks should not be tolerated:
STOPspamjamesnewtonspampiclist.com?subject=SEXISM+Not+acceptable

Notice the lack of a "calm down" option. <SAD GRIN>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\05\01@185126 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
There are a LOT of things we wish the L-Soft list engine would do, AFAIK
this is on the "Wish it would but it doesn't" list, so far.  I'll
re-check, perhaps the latest version has it;  I thought I checked.

 Mark

David Lions wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'Etch Resist Ink (and tags) [ADMIN]'
2000\05\03@121700 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Thanks for offering the deal to the PICList first.

Results of previous polls on the subject have shown that most members think
that posts on good deals on used or unwanted items (or even product
announcements) that a PIC engineer might want are a real good thing for the
list.

To make sure that people who don't want to see this type of post can filter
it out, I'm going to start asking that post like this have a new tag "[AD]"
in the subject line in addition to the [OT] tag it should have since it is
not directly related to PICs.

So,
A) By all means, please post your "good deals" to the list..
B) add [AD] to the end of the subject line and [OT] if its not directly PIC
related.

And please,
A) don't send emails directly to list members to sell your product. That
*is* SPAM.
B) don't post the same ad about the same stuff every so often for no
apparent reason.
C) don't post ads on stuff that has nada to do with PICs or at least
engineering.

That gives us 4 "official" tags for the subject line:
[OT] for off topic posts
[AD] for advertisements
[ADMIN] for posts related to list administration
[EE] for off topic posts (use only with [OT]) that are still of interest to
engineers. For now, also include [OT] as we don't want to force people to
change the [OT] filter they have set up unless they want to get [EE] posts.

Hint: if enough people start using the [EE][OT] tag, I'll police the [OT]
only posts even less than I already do (although recent polls indicate that
the vast majority are happy with the policing) and we might switch to [EE]
by itself for engineering related but non PIC posts and [OT] for way off
topic posts.

Please let me know what you think.
jamesnewtonKILLspamspamspampiclist.com?subject=TAGS_Too_many> TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonKILLspamspampiclist.com?subject=TAGS_More> spamjamesnewton.....spam@spam@piclist.com?subject=TAGS_AD_YES> spam_OUTjamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com?subject=TAGS_AD_NO> EraseMEjamesnewtonspamBeGonespampiclist.com?subject=TAGS_EE_YES> EraseMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamspampiclist.com?subject=TAGS_EE_NO> thanks to Neil Cherry
http://members.home.net/ncherry
for the idea of using _ rather than +.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Scott Beatty
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2000 19:30
To: TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Etch Resist Ink


Hello

       I have one gallon of etch resist ink for silk screening PCBs.
Worth $75 dollars will sell for $50.  Thought I would offer it here
first. Anyone interested?

Scott

'[ADMIN] repro default changed'
2000\05\03@125020 by jamesnewton

picon face
Just a quick note to let everyone know and to say thanks to Mike Werner who
was able to figure out how to change the default on the list server so that
new subscribers WILL see their own posts echoed back to them by default.
Thanks Mike! He really has a strange and wonderful ability to read arcane
documentation.

Hopefully, this will cut down on the "is anyone getting my posts" posts.

I've noticed that despite passing the 2000 member mark, the PICList is
seeing a lot fewer "unsubscribble" posts, also thanks to Mike changing the
less than totally useful default "welcome" message sent by the list server
to new subscribers.

List of things the list server can't do that we would like:
- reject HTML Posts (Please, try not to post in HTML)
- strip attachments or cache them at a web page (adding a link to the
message)
- virus scan (probably not necessary if the previous two could be done)

Please send other ideas to me directly:
spamjamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
EraseMEjamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

'[OT][AD] 550 COMPONENTS - I2C 24C01 ISO7816 - MEM'
2000\05\04@135556 by WF

flavicon
face
I need urgently to acquire 550 of this component...

Can you inform me some distributor?

Miguel Wisintainer

2000\05\04@193225 by Giles

picon face
I know their is a shortage of that part right now.  Can you mod the code to
take a 24c02 or 24c03...
Somebody else asked me to cross that part just last week for them.
By the way, brands to try.. Microchip, Atmel, Xilinx(sp), and many others.
Get cross part numbers from each mfg and then try finding them when you have
an army of part numbers that are usable.
By the way, I have used, in the past, a PCB layout for 8 pin dip with a
surface mount pad layout overlapping, so the board could be build with DIP
or surface mount.  Just a thought. It looked something like this:
O   O
:O : O
:O : O
O   O

Some links that came up on a search of 24c01:
http://www.usa.samsungsemi.com/
http://www.atmel.com/
http://www.rohmelectronics.com/
http://www.seiko-usa-ecd.com/
http://www.infineon.com/
http://www.microchip.com/

Good luck,
Giles


----- Original Message -----
From: WF <KILLspamwfEraseMEspamspam_OUTBLUSOFT.ORG.BR>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 12:50 PM
Subject: [PICLIST] [OT][AD] 550 COMPONENTS - I2C 24C01 ISO7816 - MEMORY CARD


> I need urgently to acquire 550 of this component...
>
> Can you inform me some distributor?
>
> Miguel Wisintainer
>

2000\05\04@193643 by Giles

picon face
Miguel ,
I forgot to tell you:
As for distributors, use http://www.the-esb.com  (online version of The Electronic
Source Book)
I find it very very useful.

Best regards,
Giles

2000\05\04@195923 by WF

flavicon
face
I contacted all, but, they only sell  DIP, SOC, DIE, WAFER format...not the
PLASTIC SMARTCARD format that i need...

Miguel
{Original Message removed}

2000\05\05@072346 by andy howard

flavicon
face
From: "WF" <@spam@wfTakeThisOuTspamBLUSOFT.ORG.BR>


> I contacted all, but, they only sell  DIP, SOC, DIE, WAFER
format...not the
> PLASTIC SMARTCARD format that i need...
>
> Miguel


Try http://www.crownhill.co.uk . They do all kinds of smartcard stuff.

'FYI : New e-mail virus [OT][ADIM]'
2000\05\05@140227 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Wow... Has anyone else noticed the deafening silence? ...the lack of virus
carrying posts ricocheting through the PICList? How have we managed to not
be affected by this one? Knock on wood?

Could it be that a few people posted warnings before the thing got here and
ALL the list members with Outlook listened and avoided it?

Good job (so far... knock, knock, knock...)

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
STOPspamjamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\05@141233 by Chris Eddy

flavicon
face
Although I consider myself a humble man, I suspect that the critical mass of
grey matter on the list is such that it does not allow these things to propogate
through OUR machines.  I got a love letter.. but I figure all of us on the list
know when we see a VBS extension that the fix is in.  I called the fellow and
told him that I love him too, then deleted it.

I open nothing that I did not expect to show up.  With the exception of JPG's,
which are predictably harmless jokes.

Chris Eddy

James Newton wrote:

> Wow... Has anyone else noticed the deafening silence? ...the lack of virus
> carrying posts ricocheting through the PICList? How have we managed to not
> be affected by this one? Knock on wood?

2000\05\05@142915 by Dipperstein, Michael

face picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Newton [spamjamesnewtonKILLspamspampiclist.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 11:00 AM
> To: PICLISTRemoveMEspammitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: FYI : New e-mail virus [OT][ADIM]
>
>
> Wow... Has anyone else noticed the deafening silence? ...the
> lack of virus
> carrying posts ricocheting through the PICList? How have we
> managed to not
> be affected by this one? Knock on wood?
>
> Could it be that a few people posted warnings before the
> thing got here and
> ALL the list members with Outlook listened and avoided it?

I must have had nearly 100 e-mail messages carrying the worm before I saw the
first PICList posting about the worm.  It's more likely that those of us on the
PICList forced to use Outlook are smart enough not to open e-mail with
attachments that look so suspicious.  Secondly, I imagine that most PICList
members that use Outlook and choose to carelessly open e-mail attachments, don't
have the PICList in their address books.

-Mike

2000\05\05@143316 by Dipperstein, Michael

face picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Eddy [ceddyEraseMEspam@spam@nb.net]
> Sent: Friday, May 05, 2000 9:11 AM
> To: STOPspamPICLISTTakeThisOuTspam.....mitvma.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: FYI : New e-mail virus [OT][ADIM]
>
>
> I open nothing that I did not expect to show up.  With the
> exception of JPG's,
> which are predictably harmless jokes.

In the case of this worm, it replaces every JPG it can find with a copy of it's
vbe.  If you have JPG viewer that executes VBEs (does such a thing exist?), and
someone sent you a worm effected JPG, you'd be infected.

-Mike

2000\05\05@145734 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
I go ZERO "I Love you" virus-containing emails, and about 50 messages
containing assorted levels of warning...

BillW

2000\05\05@150159 by rleggitt
2000\05\05@150207 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Fri, 5 May 2000, Dipperstein, Michael wrote:

> In the case of this worm, it replaces every JPG it can find with a copy of it's
> vbe.  If you have JPG viewer that executes VBEs (does such a thing exist?), and
> someone sent you a worm effected JPG, you'd be infected.

Yes, ACDSee (as well as others, I'm sure) will launch a file if you
double-click it. Of course, it wouldn't show up as a JPG or other image
file, so you'd still have to be pretty stupid and/or pretty careless to do
it.

Dale
---
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

2000\05\05@151007 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:55 AM 5/5/00 -0700, William Chops Westfield wrote:
>I go ZERO "I Love you" virus-containing emails, and about 50 messages
>containing assorted levels of warning...

That's about where I am.

Now tell me, why is it a good idea to have an email program that
automatically runs software sent to you by some random bozo?


- --
Are you an ISP?  Tired of spam?
http://www.spamwhack.com  A pre-emptive strike against spam!

Where's Dave? http://www.findu.com/cgi-bin/find.cgi?kc6ete-9

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.2 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

iQA/AwUBORM2PIFlGDz1l6VWEQIYUgCfZVcSEQ00WH1dIFfzRdSDlwqz8mkAoP47
jkmBsYn0cGJDUavRqtfNP1sw
=Vh1x
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

'FYI : New e-mail virus [OT][ADMIN]'
2000\05\05@151637 by Dan Creagan

flavicon
face
Actually, it does replace common picture formats, but it also renames them
from <filename.jpg> to <filename.jpg.vbs>

Normal picture viewers would not be affected and would not spread the virus.
What would happen in Windows is a GUI user would try to click on the
filename (from My Computer or Explorer) thinking that it was the old file
(not noticing the incorrect extension). Windows would see the vbs extension
and run the scripting host - which would infect the system.  If the (l)user
would attempt to load the file from the file dialog of, say, Paint Shop Pro,
it would just complain it didn't understand the file format.

I think you have to almost try to get this sucker to infect your system.
Amazing that it caused so much damage.  Are we all so starved for
affection/ego trips that we absolutely MUST open something as lame as
ILOVEYOU.txt.vbs ????

=============================================

In the case of this worm, it replaces every JPG it can find with a copy of
it's
vbe.  If you have JPG viewer that executes VBEs (does such a thing exist?),
and
someone sent you a worm effected JPG, you'd be infected.

-Mike

2000\05\05@182234 by paulb

flavicon
face
Dan Creagan wrote:

> What would happen in Windows is a GUI user would try to click on the
> filename (from My Computer or Explorer) thinking that it was the old
> file (not noticing the incorrect extension).

 Which by the doofus (default) settings, Windoze attempts to hide from
you.

> I think you have to almost try to get this sucker to infect your
> system.

 I think that's fair comment.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'FYI : New e-mail virus [OT][ADIM]'
2000\05\06@011911 by Russell McMahon

picon face
I think it's a wee bit cleverer than this.

I understand that it re-assigns the default "viewer" for jpegs and layer for
MP3's to act as if they are vbs files (which they now are) and thereby runs
itself. when you try to run a  copy of itself which has a jpg extension.


     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

>From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))


{Original Message removed}

2000\05\06@013322 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Can this virus affect win98 boxes without outlook? i.e., if the user runs
the attachment?

At 01:21 PM 5/6/00 +1200, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
spam_OUTshb7spam_OUTspamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

2000\05\06@120530 by Dan Creagan

flavicon
face
Yes. We had one, and only one, infected machine on our campus. The person
was running Netscape and just had to open the attached file. She double
clicked on it after she saved it, the Windows Scripting Host ran and she had
a destroyed machine (with users who are numb, the safest bet is to format
the drive and start over - they'll find a file on there somewhere that is
infected and rescrew the system if you don't). It didn't replicate to the
rest of us because it wasn't opened in Outlook (Outlook wasn't available).

It was the President's secretary.  A very nice lady, but not very computer
wise.  She had to *try* to open the file - which is something I've already
commented on.

Dan

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\06@183308 by Kieran Miller

flavicon
face
> It was the President's secretary.  A very nice lady, but not very computer
> wise.  She had to *try* to open the file - which is something I've already
> commented on.
>

I notice from McAfee's website (http://www.mcafee.com) that people are
quickly changing both the content of the ILOVEYOU email, and the name of the
attachment, and forwarding it onwards.

I found one example particularly worrying:

SUBJECT: "Mothers Day Order Confirmation"
MESSAGE: "We have proceeded to charge your credit card for the amount of
$326.92 for the mothers day diamond special. We have attached a detailed
invoice to this email. Please print out the attachment and keep it in a safe
place.Thanks Again and Have a Happy Mothers Day!"
ATTACHMENT: " mothersday.vbs"

Kieran

'[OT][ADMIN] NO MORE HTML!!!'
2000\05\10@101143 by jamesnewton

picon face
We (list admins) just found that a new feature that appears to allow the
filtering out of HTML messages was hidden in the "Language" setting of the
list server program and we have enabled it. If you see this message, the
listserver didn't correctly apply the new "filter out" HTML feature. If you
don't see it, give a big hoo-rah! <GRIN>


---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

2000\05\10@103111 by jamesnewton

face picon face
On the other hand, if you see the message (as I did) but its been converted
from HTML to Plain Text, give a double hoo-rah!

Apparently I misunderstood the docs on the new feature. Rather than
rejecting HTML, it apparently converts HTML to Plain Text. Either that or
Outlook was "doing things I didn't ask it to do" again <GRIN>. But I notice
that a recent post from Mr. Rigby Jones (who has been HTML stuck due to the
requirements of his workplace) came through in plain text.

If I get any more tickled about this, I'll turn pink! <VBG> No more sending
out all those "please change your lame ass settings to plain text"
reminders.

THANK YOU L-SOFT! (Next time don't hide it in the documentation). And thanks
to Mike for digging in the docs.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
EraseMEjamesnewton@spam@spampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\10@115521 by Severson, Rob

flavicon
face
This time I'll aim at the list. I hope it keeps the HML intact...

> -----Original Message-----

James:

> If I get any more tickled about this, I'll turn pink! <VBG>

This filter removes HTML without affecting HML (Humor Markup
Language) like <VBG> above.

So <SARCASM> and </SARCASM> should be fine. (I hope this
worked <VBG>) [That was embedded HML].

-Rob

'[OT] I'm back! [ADMIN]'
2000\05\10@160218 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Hopefully you will find that 90% of the noise is marked [OT] and can be
filtered out. If you see that as being otherwise, please point me at the
thread and I will stop it. If its off topic and not getting marked, the
people posting on the tread get warned and then kicked off the list. Also,
the noise that is flame material gets stamped out pretty damn quick marked
or not. So the frustration level that eventually led to your self imposed
exit isn't reached.

And.... we appear to have completely solved the HTML problem. <ETEG> I'm
just so happy about that I could... well anyway.

We changed the default settings so that new members now see their own posts
by default, which eliminates one source of noise.

Our new welcome message and piclist.com has cut the "unsubscribble" requests
and other issues significantly despite the list passing 2000 members.

The archives have been protected against SPAMMers and are being updated more
frequently thanks to their admins.

And we may be on to a fool proof way to really put a dent in the noise
problem... Admins are huddling, will let you know soon.

And further along there are Nikolai Golovchenko and Jon Hylands extensions
to the constmuldiv code generator... That one is going to be sweet....

Andy Warren, Scott Dattalo, Dmitry Kiryashov, and a couple of other long
time respected contributors have returned. If anyone is still in contact
with Tjaart, or John Payson, or others please let them know that they are
missed.

As always, any advice on how to better admin the list would be appreciated.

I am still bothered by the number of questions that have been answered in
the past many times that are re-asked on a regular basis. The
http://www.piclist.com/FAQ
site really attempts to record all these and allow people to find them via
keyword search or subject hierarchy. Our welcome message and several peoples
signature lines try to encourage people to look there first, but this seems
to have little effect. Also, contributions to the FAQ have been dismal and
infrequent by persons other than yours truly. Complain, complain. <GRIN>
Sorry. I had hoped that if I put enough in to it, people would start seeing
it as the "place to put answers" and take over adding to it directly.

All in all, I think the PICList rocks! I'm really looking forward to your
contributions. Know anything about FEC or byte code interpreters? <GRIN>
I've got this project...

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewtonKILLspamspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'Pressure to MPH [ADMIN][MARK OT]'
2000\05\10@162008 by jamesnewton

face picon face
This is looking more [EE] than [PIC]. Please add [EE] to the subject line of
future posts on this thread.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
KILLspamjamesnewtonspam.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\10@183539 by jamesnewton

face picon face
This thread has nothing to do with PICs. Future posts on this thread need to
have [OT] in the subject line or the poster will be unsubscribe.

LAST WARNING.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonEraseMEspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'RF circuit building [ADMIN][MARK OT]'
2000\05\11@224721 by James Michael Newton

picon face
Please mark replies to this post with an [OT] at the end of the subject
line.
James Newton, PICList Admin #3
KILLspamjamesnewtonspamBeGonespamspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Soon Lee <KILLspampslnspam_OUTspam.....CYBERWAY.COM.SG>
To: <spamPICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 19:00
Subject: RF circuit building


> Hi every one
>
> how much will it cost to build a RF transmitter and receive using IC
> thanks for you help
>



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

'[OT] [AD] FYI - Free Antivirus s/w'
2000\05\13@060147 by Jinx

face picon face
Without dwelling on their motivation, Computer Associates are, after the
recent Love Virus rampage, offering Inoculate IT Personal Edition free,
with future upgrades and updates free also. I hope the list will forgive the
advertisement but this is a good opportunity for anyone who needs it to
get protection. A form needs to be submitted, which may raise spam
hackles.  Judge for yourself

http://www.antivirus.cai.com

'[admin] Is Scenix OT?'
2000\05\14@114257 by Don

flavicon
face
I'm  curious about the scenix chips, but don't know if its off topic?
Seems it wouldnt be since its sort of a clone of a pic chip, but then
again, it has some differences in the registers and the
programming method.

Don

2000\05\14@125750 by James Michael Newton

picon face
As a PIC clone, the Scenix is not off topic. I suppose if anyone wanted to
nitPIC <GRIN> features of the SX that are above and beyond the PIC are
probably off topic unless we are talking about how to do the same thing on
the PIC.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
@spam@jamesnewtonspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] Repeat Messages'
2000\05\14@163623 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
Is anyone else getting copies of posts to the PICList that were sent
last week or maybe a bit before? I keep getting messages with dates that
are old,  and I even remember reading them. Is this a problem on my end
or is this happening to anyone else?

Josh Koffman
joshyspam@spam@mb.sympatico.ca

'FW: [OT][ADMIN] NO MORE HTML!!!'
2000\05\14@171017 by Severson, Rob

flavicon
face
This time I'll aim at the list. I hope it keeps the HML intact...

> -----Original Message-----

James:

> If I get any more tickled about this, I'll turn pink! <VBG>

This filter removes HTML without affecting HML (Humor Markup
Language) like <VBG> above.

So <SARCASM> and </SARCASM> should be fine. (I hope this
worked <VBG>) [That was embedded HML].

-Rob

'[Admin] Repeat Messages'
2000\05\14@173933 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
<x-flowed>At 03:19 PM 5/14/00 -0500, Josh Koffman wrote:
>Is anyone else getting copies of posts to the PICList that were sent
>last week or maybe a bit before? I keep getting messages with dates that
>are old,  and I even remember reading them. Is this a problem on my end
>or is this happening to anyone else?
>
>Josh Koffman
>spamjoshyRemoveMEspamspammb.sympatico.ca

Yep.  Here is a portion of one of the offending message's header

X-Warning: mitvma.mit.edu: Host smtp.arrakis.es claimed to be
           ssmtp02.melange.isp

dwayne



Dwayne Reid   <STOPspamdwaynerEraseMEspamplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.

</x-flowed>

2000\05\14@214952 by Ian Wilkinson

flavicon
face
On Sun, 14 May 2000 in "[Admin] Repeat Messages", you wrote:
>Is anyone else getting copies of posts to the PICList that were sent
>last week or maybe a bit before? I keep getting messages with dates that
>are old,  and I even remember reading them. Is this a problem on my end
>or is this happening to anyone else?
>

Yes, I'm getting them from a while ago.
MY e-mail client sorts mail into time order that it was Sent, not when I
recieve it so I get posts all over the place...

for example I got this twice...
FW: [OT][ADMIN] NO MORE HTML!!!
From: "Severson, Rob"
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:02:51 -0500

and this
[OT] need SX52BD programmer...
From: Vasile Surducan
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:28:59 +0000

and
Re: very [OT] linux masquerading a lan
From: Alan B Pearce
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:37:15 +0100

and
Re: very [OT] linux masquerading a lan
From: Mark Willis
To: @spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:24:29 -0700

I thought it was something I had done...

Ian.
--
A pair of feckin' women's knickers!
- Father Jack

Uptime at 12:23am  up  2:14,  4 users,

2000\05\15@033421 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
> On Sun, 14 May 2000 in "[Admin] Repeat Messages", you wrote:
> >Is anyone else getting copies of posts to the PICList that were sent
> >last week or maybe a bit before? I keep getting messages with dates that
> >are old,  and I even remember reading them. Is this a problem on my end
> >or is this happening to anyone else?
> >
>
I've been on the list for quite a while now (2 years ish) and this seems to
be an almost regular feature.  I'm sure Mark dealt with this the last time.

Mike

2000\05\15@041437 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
it is a bit disconcerting to realise that a couple of the repeated messages are
your own, and know that it is a while since they were sent. Just a possible
pointer - it seemed to me that the repeated messages referred to topics where
somebody posted a new message - is the archiving software getting screwed up
when trying to add a message to a thread causing it to repeat old messages?
this may be an invalid pointer as I have not done a proper investigation along
this line, but it was an impression I got that is possibly worth investigating.

2000\05\15@052839 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Nope.  Someone's e-mail server's sending incoming posts back to the list
somehow, and the entire list then receives the post again.  Annoying,
isn't it!?  I think Mike fixed this one already.

 Mark

Alan B Pearce wrote:
> it is a bit disconcerting to realise that a couple of the repeated messages are
> your own, and know that it is a while since they were sent. Just a possible
> pointer - it seemed to me that the repeated messages referred to topics where
> somebody posted a new message - is the archiving software getting screwed up
> when trying to add a message to a thread causing it to repeat old messages?
> this may be an invalid pointer as I have not done a proper investigation along
> this line, but it was an impression I got that is possibly worth investigating.

'Heart pulse [ADMIN][MARK OT]'
2000\05\15@112747 by jamesnewton

face picon face
See what happens when I don't step in and stop these unmarked, off topic
threads right away? <GRIN>

This thread has nothing to to do with PICs. Please mark all further posts on
this Thread with an [OT] at the end of the subject line.

Not marking this thread will get you kicked off the list.

FIRST WARNING.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
.....jamesnewtonKILLspamspamEraseMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[EraseMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Alan B Pearce
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 06:08
To: KILLspamPICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: SV: Heart pulse


>This was *supposed* to be demonstrated to us during our course,...

Hmm, this does leave the imagination wide open to suggestion as to what the
course was.

'BIG NEWS! Server Topic Filtering [ADMIN]'
2000\05\16@130819 by jamesnewton

picon face
We (the list admins) have found a new feature in the list server software
that may provide a much better way of handling on and off topic (and sort of
off topic, etc..) posts. It would cause the list to work a bit differently
and might cause some confusion at first so we want to explain it and get
some feedback from the list on how best to implement it.

The new version of the list server can track "topics" by looking for
keywords or tags at the start of the subject line (after skipping past the
fw: or re:). It will then filter posts FOR the list members according to
which topics they wish to receive. For example, if we set the possible
topics to:
[PIC], [EE], [OT], and [AD]
we can set "topics of interest to subscribers" to [PIC] only and you will
only see posts with subject lines that start with "[PIC]:" (or "re: [PIC]:"
or "FW: [PIC]:" etc...). Of course you can send a simple command to the list
server that "turns on" the other topics as well. For example if you also
wanted to see [EE] posts (not directly related to the PIC, but still about
engineering) you could send:
LISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET PICLIST TOPICS: +[EE]

Now, that is not the really good part.... here it is... <GRIN> if someone
DOESN'T put a topic tag at the start of the subject line, the list server
puts the post in a special topic called "OTHER" and if you haven't told the
listserver that you want "OTHER" posts, you wont get it! Cool huh?

The default settings for new subscribers will be with all topics including
OTHER turned ON so if they post without a topic, they will see their own
post. Also, we can set up an autoresponder that gets ONLY "OTHER" posts and
replies with a nice message that says "Um, you forgot to add [PIC]: [EE]:
[OT]: or [AD]: to your subject line, so, pretty much, I'm the only person
who saw your post, didn't you read the welcome message or the piclist.com
page?" followed by an explanation of what the topic tags mean, a mailto link
to turn off the OTHER topic (and the... other ([EE], [OT], [AD]) topics as
well), and a brief review of the list guidelines. And before anyone freaks
about looping on the autoresponder idea, we will put an [AUTOMATIC RESPONSE]
tag in and the autoresponder will know not to autorespond to posts
containing that.

Now, this is all a bit backwards from the way we are doing it now; rather
than asking that people be good and add [OT] to off topic posts, we will say
that all posts are not only off topic, but also completely ignored by
everyone but the autoresponder, unless you remember to put the topic at the
start of the subject line.

To get to the list and be read by all us members who are interested in
PIC's, a person will have to type [PIC]: at the start of the subject line.
This has the huge benefit of reminding people to think about whether or not
their post is really about PIC's. I personally think that this is an easy,
automatic and very complete solution to the problem of constant off topic
posting on the list. If it's really not about [PIC]:, you can add [EE]: or
[OT]: or [AD]: and it will go though to those people.

Using the same [OT], [EE] and [AD] strings for the topic names will allow
people who have set up automatic filters, sorters and classification rules
to continue using them. I know a lot of people move [OT]'s into a separate
folder for lower priority reading.

Of course, replying to an existing post will not change at all and people
may still take a [PIC]: related thread off into never, never land, but...
admins have to have something to do right? The no-HTML thing has been such a
big help that this list may get to be semi-self running and then we can
focus on other things like improving the FAQ or archives.

Ok, sorry for the long explanation, but we think this is an important new
direction for the list and will solve a lot of problems and make life a lot
nicer for members. What do you think?

STOPspamjamesnewtonspamspam_OUTpiclist.com?subject=TOPICS_YES> EraseMEjamesnewton@spam@spamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com?subject=TOPICS_YES_BUT <- please include
comments.
spamBeGonejamesnewtonSTOPspamspamspam_OUTpiclist.com?subject=TOPICS_NO <- please include why?

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
.....jamesnewton@spam@spamRemoveMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

2000\05\16@133124 by Andrew Kunz

flavicon
face
I personally hate having machines think for me.

I would hope the default for current members would be to enable everything, and
only if they don't want it they can opt-out.

Andy

2000\05\16@135025 by PIC development

flavicon
picon face
On Tue, 16 May 2000, Andrew Kunz wrote:

> I personally hate having machines think for me.

Me too, they're so much better at it
>
> I would hope the default for current members would be to enable everything, and
> only if they don't want it they can opt-out.
>
> Andy
>
it would be a nice feature if the system would "drop" posts you make
that didn't conform to the categories you were registered for.
E.g. if I only wanted to hear about PICS (which is why I joined the
list - no comments about the inconsistency with this post please)
then I would register for [PIC], ok so far. Now if I post something
without [PIC] I would hope that the system would throw my post away
as I would not get to see any of the responses.

Hmmmm,
Pete

2000\05\16@135821 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Yes, the default for new (and old) members would be for all the topics to be
enabled. Most current members would turn off the OTHER: topic pretty quick.
Anyone who didn't want off topic discussions would turn off [OT]: Don't want
advertisements? Turn of [AD]:, Really not interested in non-PIC engineering
posts? Off goes [EE]: That leaves just [PIC]: as the minimum...

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewton.....spamspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLIST@spam@spamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Andrew Kunz
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 10:29
To: spamBeGonePICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: BIG NEWS! Server Topic Filtering [ADMIN]


I personally hate having machines think for me.

I would hope the default for current members would be to enable everything,
and
only if they don't want it they can opt-out.

Andy

2000\05\16@140030 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Correct, Actually it would tag it as being of topic OTHER: and send it only
to people who have OTHER: turned on.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspamspamBeGonepiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\16@143946 by Jeff Frohwein

flavicon
face
What would happen, say, if you had [PIC] turned on but [AD] turned off
but they were both in the subject line?

Thanks,

Jeff


The following is an off-topic joke:
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> YOU HAVE NOW RECEIVED THE UNIX VIRUS
>
> This virus works on the honor system:
>
> If you're running a variant of unix or linux, please forward this message
> to everyone you know and delete a bunch of your files at random.

2000\05\16@170316 by Quentin

flavicon
face
I'm concerned that we now have to add a [PIC] tag. I mean this is what
the list is all about, most posts are about it (yup, believe it or not
:-) ) and the changes you propose is to filter out all the other stuff
from the PIC stuff. Now you want PIC posts on a PIC list to be filtered
as well.

Or am I missing the boat here?

Quentin

2000\05\16@172337 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
The way it works is that if someone sends a message with topics [PIC]
and [AD], and you have EITHER [PIC] or [AD] one turned on, you get the
message.

So, use filtering, Trash anything with [AD] in it, is the best I can
suggest.

 Mark

Jeff Frohwein wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

2000\05\16@172946 by jamesnewton

face picon face
That is a very good point and is the one down point I can see in this.

Right now, if you want to post something about PICs to the PICList, you have
to:
A) Click on "New Message" or whatever button triggers your email client to
send email
B) Enter spam_OUTPICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU in the "To..." field
C) Enter a subject line
D) Enter the post text in the body.

With the new system, step C would be modified to read:
C) Enter [PIC]: and the rest of the subject line.

Replying to a message would not be any different.

So... we are talking about requiring 6 extra keystrokes when posting. Its
not a lot, but it is extra work and I do understand that basically, this is
asking 99% of the PICList to do (a little) more so that the 1% that can't
bother to add [OT] reliably, will be reminded that they are on the subject
of PICs.

That's why we are asking for feedback on this idea. I still think its the
way to go, but I really will respect whatever the bulk of the list decides.
It may just not be worth it.

STOPspamjamesnewtonRemoveMEspamKILLspampiclist.com?subject=TOPICS_YES> @spam@jamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com?subject=TOPICS_YES_BUT <- please include
comments.
RemoveMEjamesnewton.....spamspamBeGonepiclist.com?subject=TOPICS_NO <- please include why?

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spam_OUTjamesnewtonKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\17@013537 by Josh Koffman

flavicon
face
Notice however, that any posts marked [ADMIN] would go to the [OTHER]
autoresponder, and get a rude message back :) Just a thought...


Josh Koffman
joshy.....spam.....mb.sympatico.ca

2000\05\17@161649 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Awww, you spoiled my surprise for James <G>

 Mark

Josh Koffman wrote:
> Notice however, that any posts marked [ADMIN] would go to the [OTHER]
> autoresponder, and get a rude message back :) Just a thought...
>
> Josh Koffman
> TakeThisOuTjoshyspamspammb.sympatico.ca

'relocatable code for different processors [ADMIN]'
2000\05\17@175110 by paulb

flavicon
face
Wollenberg, Frank wrote:

> My previous mail was rejected by listserver, so i will resend this
> with the heading lines modified.  Sorry for my inconvenience.

 Auuuuuuuggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

 James, *can* we get that stupid, *stupid*, totally misleading error
message FIXED so people know to NEVER, EVER re-post messages please?

 One bounce message to the sender isn't much, but voluminous re-sends
to the whole list are really unnecessary.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\05\17@204538 by Mike Werner

picon face
On Thu, May 18, 2000 at 07:48:58AM +1000, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
> Wollenberg, Frank wrote:
>
> > My previous mail was rejected by listserver, so i will resend this
> > with the heading lines modified.  Sorry for my inconvenience.
>
>   Auuuuuuuggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
>
>   James, *can* we get that stupid, *stupid*, totally misleading error
> message FIXED so people know to NEVER, EVER re-post messages please?
>
>   One bounce message to the sender isn't much, but voluminous re-sends
> to the whole list are really unnecessary.

Next time someone gets one of those messages, *PLEASE* forward it
to me.  I'm trying to find where that message is set, but since I've
never seen it I don't know what to look for.  Also, I don't know
exactly what the server is complaining about.

When whoever it is forwards it, please try and forward the entire
message, headers included.  I'm trying to get things like this sorted
out, but I'll need some information at times to do it.

Oh yeah, one more thing.  When I ask for it to be forwarded, I'm
asking for it to be forwarded to my email address and *NOT* the list.
My address is:
KILLspamreznaeous@spam@spamKILLspamearthlink.net

Thanks.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN] Rejected post'
2000\05\17@231554 by Jinx

face picon face
Never had one returned until the very next mail pick-up after I
deleted the address to send it on to. What was it again please ?

2000\05\18@052500 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
It would seem that the rejected posts are all echoes from someone who has had
their access to the list cut off by their employer. I have had a bounce with the
same destination three times this morning, and all included this address line.


>Return-Path: <owner-piclistspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>Apparently-To: EraseMEdave@spam@spamTakeThisOuTDIGILOG.CO.UK
>Delivered-To: spamBeGonee7df6e19-daveEraseMEspamspamBeGoneDIGILOG.CO.UK
>Received: (qmail 17139 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 09:07:45 -0000

2000\05\18@102111 by paulb

flavicon
face
Alan B Pearce wrote:

> It would seem that the rejected posts are all echoes from someone who
> has had their access to the list cut off by their employer.

> >Apparently-To: daveEraseMEspamDIGILOG.CO.UK
> >Delivered-To: e7df6e19-davespamDIGILOG.CO.UK

 You're dead right about the mechanism.  Not so much about their list
access, it's generally their e-mail account in toto.

 It was reported to the admins a couple of days ago - not sure why they
haven't killed it yet except to say they're busy guys and some of these
things are due to strange mail reflections which are difficult to track.

 I'm not sure for example whether the listserver puts unique IDs on to
each copy of each message it resends or how easy it is to match these
logs again if they cause a bounce.

 The important thing is that until the bogus message the listserver
returns to the original sender is fixed, which I am assured it will be
:) soon, that senders do *NOT* re-send any messages.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\05\18@112735 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
> Alan B Pearce wrote:
> > It would seem that the rejected posts are all echoes from someone who
> > has had their access to the list cut off by their employer.
>
> > >Apparently-To: RemoveMEdaveEraseMEspamspamBeGoneDIGILOG.CO.UK
> > >Delivered-To: RemoveMEe7df6e19-daveSTOPspamspamDIGILOG.CO.UK
>
>   You're dead right about the mechanism.  Not so much about their list
> access, it's generally their e-mail account in toto.

Mail servers can get messed up - He's working the problem.  Switching to
"Apparently-To" for passing messages should fix it (Think it should be
fixed now?)

>   It was reported to the admins a couple of days ago - not sure why they
> haven't killed it yet except to say they're busy guys and some of these
> things are due to strange mail reflections which are difficult to track.

We're hardly the "Avenging Budgie" type - Family humor from childhood
when my sisters' dingbat Budgie decided, for some bird-brained reason,
to try to harass the family calico, dive bombing her repeatedly.  My
sister thought it was funny, at least until "Hoody" (Houdina Hacksaw,
long story!), CAUGHT her bird, and she had to rescue it before Hoody ate
it! <G>  I use the term for some small-minded petty tyrants - You know,
the pointy-haired kind =)

We (usually at least!) try to be patient and get peoples' attention,
then get the cause of the problem solved, fairly quickly - should be
solved now.  (We do have bad days, doesn't everyone?)

BTW, folks - If/When you do get Bounces like this, if you pass full
headers to me (or other Admins, I think James and Mike read headers as
well), or to the <RemoveMEpiclist-requestspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> address, I'll get at
the cause and bug them.  Or they will.

One common solution we try is to Set "Digest" mode on people where this
is happening - Seems to work as then there's no "Sender" and we don't
see multiple PICList members unhappy.  So, if you have a personal home
e-mail snagging server and get suddenly set to Digest, please check for
e-mail from an Admin before just setting it back to Mail NoDigest, see
if there's a problem - We don't change peoples' subscription settings
for NO reason, and, we e-mail you to try to tell you what the problem
IS, before doing anything like that!

>   I'm not sure for example whether the listserver puts unique IDs on to
> each copy of each message it resends or how easy it is to match these
> logs again if they cause a bounce.

The List Engine, *Used* to include a comment "X-Passed-To" (? or
something like that), in the headers - The latest revision has some GOOD
improvements, but, they removed that line from the output, Drat!  When
tracking these, full headers are necessary, but now they just point me
at the proper ISP, don't necessarily tell me which of several people
there it is - Most of us are 1 to an ISP, fortunately - so usually
works, but I'll ask L-Soft to undo their removing that, it was HANDY
<G>  Also will ask them to just plain NOT send a "Duplicate" message in
this situation, just throw the message away if they've already sent it
out...

>   The important thing is that until the bogus message the listserver
> returns to the original sender is fixed, which I am assured it will be
> :) soon, that senders do *NOT* re-send any messages.

Exactly!  The problem's that the list sends a message out to us all -
someone's (at home, slightly misconfigured) e-mail server bounces a copy
back to the "Send to whole list" address - and the L-Soft list engine
then rejects it, mistakenly sending a message TO the original sender,
thinking the original sender posted it twice;  Want to get both causes
of this fixed, not the symptoms!

> --
>   Cheers,
>         Paul B.

'testmessage [ADMIN]'
2000\05\18@122727 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Folks, I guess this is a 'finnicky' of mine - When you send a test, it
sorta drives us Admins nuts.  So I'm going to "pick" on rad0 a little -
This's for ALL list members though, really.

Probably best if you contact one of us if you're having problems, as we
know what solutions there are, and what to do & what not to do.

If you send a Test message, we don't know whether:

* You aren't receiving PICList posts, there's another fix and some
common propogation delays that happen there all the time.  (If you send
"Query PICList" to the PICList List Server at <spamLISTSERVRemoveMEspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>,
and get a reply back listing your subscription options, you know you're
still ON the list - all list posts are routed from MIT to L-Soft, and
sometimes they get stuck enroute - They'll get there sooner or later.
The Administrative posts like Query PICList, go directly, so you should
get them sooner.  And, if you're on Yahoo, expect Slow e-mail, 15-20
minutes or so lag time now.)

* You aren't seeing your posts to the list, and there's one fix for
that, and ways to test.  (Send "Set PICList Repro" to the PICList List
Server at <EraseMELISTSERVKILLspamspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, then you will get a copy of your
own posts by default - The default is NOW Repro On, for a while it
wasn't though.)

* You're getting bounced "rejected" messages, there's another fix for
that.  (Your message has already BEEN sent once, then someone's mangled
mail server passed it back at the PICList List input address, and the
list engine's saying, "Hey - You SENT this already, why're you trying to
send it twice?!", in confusing language.)

* You are just checking to see if you're on the PICList, there's another
test for that.  (Send "Query PICList" to the PICList List Server at
<EraseMELISTSERVKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, it will tell you your subscription options.)

The bottom line is, IF you have to send a Test Message, please at least
throw in a WHY you're testing, so we can help if help's needed. (And, if
it's "Testing to verify that I can send e-mail to all 1700+ list
members", please just e-mail Mike, James, or myself, instead.)

 Mark

rad0 wrote:
>
> testmessage

'[ADMIN] Rejected post'
2000\05\18@132834 by jamesnewton

face picon face
We did kill it, and emailed Dave to tell him why. Yesterday, he said he had
it fixed and resubscribed. It isn't fixed so he has been dumped again and
told why.

Paul, your suggested replacement for the listserver message looks ok, but
I'd like to tone the sarcasm down a bit, and discus it with the other list
admins first.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamjamesnewton.....spamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'relocatable code for different processors [ADMIN]'
2000\05\18@144932 by Mike Werner

picon face
In an incredibely bizarrely ironic twist of fate, I now have a
copy of the dup bounce message.  My post was deemed a dup by the
server.  I'm still laughing about this ...

So, I guess I won't need a dup report forwarded to me after all.
Hopefully I'll have some news on this within a few days.

Sometimes I swear someone/thing is out to get me ...

On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 08:44:54PM -0400, Mike Werner wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN] Rejected post'
2000\05\18@185619 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
We're checking - Mike's afraid that LSoft hard-coded the message,
sadly.  I'll be writing a note to L-Soft suggesting some mods!

 Mark

James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

'Scenix News [OT] [AD]'
2000\05\19@134745 by John C. Frenzel

flavicon
face
Maybe Microchip is going to get a bit more competition from Scenix

Cisco, Dell invest in Internet chip firm Scenix
By Joe Wilcox
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
May 19, 2000, 10:05 a.m. PT
Scenix, a provider of communications software and controllers, has secured a
$42.1 million equity investment from Cisco, Dell and others.

JaoTech Ventures, MSD Capital, Nohau and a half dozen other companies also
contributed funding, which privately-held Scenix will use to add
manufacturing facilities, increase research and development, and boost sales
and marketing efforts.

Mountain View, Calif.-based Scenix supplies embedded Internet chips and
software to OEMs, original equipment manufacturers, for use in consumer and
other electronic devices, such as gaming consoles and digital wireless
microphones). Scenix's technology, for example, is used in the Sony
PlayStation.

Scenix is trying to carve out a niche in the embedded systems market,
enabling a wide range of consumer and business devices to communicate over
the Internet.

Market researcher Cahners In-Stat estimated that embedded system makers
shipped 4.9 billion units last year. The researcher estimates that figure
will reach 7.3 billion units annually in 2002.

As of December, Scenix had shipped just over 1 million units of its main
product, the SX Series communications controller. Since Scenix is privately
held, it does not disclose financial results.

Neither Cisco's nor Dell's support for Scenix is surprising, given both
companies' market positions. Cisco has been on an Internet hardware buying
and investing spree, this month picking up an optical networking firm and a
switch maker, among others.

Dell has been aggressive in backing up-and-comers, which often includes
seeding its systems or an outright buying commitment. The company has also
upped its investment plans in other companies. On April 5, the Round Rock,
Texas PC maker recast itself as an Internet infrastructure provider

'[Admin] Some new addresses for list functions'
2000\05\19@155444 by Mike Werner

picon face
In poking through some more of the documentation for the list
server, I ran across some additional addresses that exist.
As it turns out, there are addresses specifically for
subscribing and unsubscribing.

To subscribe, you can use:
RemoveMEpiclist-subscribe-request.....spamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

To unsubscribe, you can use either of:
piclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu> spam_OUTpiclist-signoff-requestKILLspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu

Nothing need be in the subject or the body.  Just a blank
message sent to the address will suffice.

Not that we *want* anyone to leave, but for those that must
leave for whatever reason there's now an easier way to do so.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'Scenix News [OT] [AD]'
2000\05\20@024648 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
> Scenix, a provider of communications software and controllers, has secured
> a $42.1 million equity investment from Cisco, Dell and others.

Sheesh.  I guess all you have to do is rename your microcontrollers to
"internet microcontrollers"...

BillW
cisco (I don't know anything about this, though.)

'relocatable code for different processors [ADMIN]'
2000\05\20@044515 by Mike Werner

picon face
In an incredibely bizarrely ironic twist of fate, I now have a
copy of the dup bounce message.  My post was deemed a dup by the
server.  I'm still laughing about this ...

So, I guess I won't need a dup report forwarded to me after all.
Hopefully I'll have some news on this within a few days.

Sometimes I swear someone/thing is out to get me ...

On Wed, May 17, 2000 at 08:44:54PM -0400, Mike Werner wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'Scenix News [OT] [AD]'
2000\05\20@122143 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
BillW wrote:
>> Scenix, a provider of communications software and controllers, has secured
>> a $42.1 million equity investment from Cisco, Dell and others.
>
>Sheesh.  I guess all you have to do is rename your microcontrollers to
>"internet microcontrollers"...
>
>BillW
>cisco (I don't know anything about this, though.)
>

It's pretty clear that Scenix was going after the "communications"
market from day 1. Simple architectures that run at 50-100 MIPS,
code in flash/EEROM for easy updates [like "this" week's modem std],
plus [the primary evidence] the larger chip 48/52-pinouts come
only in small pitch SMT - no PLCC available [much to my dismay].

This last fact indicates they were really targeting large volume
apps, with comm obviously being the major player today. After all,
how many small volume apps can put a 52-pin QFP on the board?

To qualify this, the Scenix chips really don't have enough gut
level power to do "real" DSP-type comm, which requires large data
RAM, h.w. multipliers, and 24- to 32-bit architectures, but they
are fine for rudimentary bit handling at blistering speed.

- Dan Michaels
Oricom Technologies
http://www.sni.net/~oricom
==========================

'"Selfholding" (OT) [ADMIN]'
2000\05\22@111758 by Don

flavicon
face
Shouldn't the OT be delineated with square brackets rather than
parentheses?  [OT] instead of (OT) ? Just curious, as this thread
seems to penetrate normal filters.



On 22 May 2000, at 10:12, Nebelong Bjarne wrote:

> How 'bout this?
>
> /Bjarne
>
>
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2000\05\22@180458 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Yes. I was getting to that... thanks for the assist <GRIN>. Please mark
further posts on this thread [OT]

FIRST WARNING.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamjamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] New list feature implemented'
2000\05\22@232741 by Mike Werner

picon face
Greetings folks.  As you may remember the list admins have
been considering implementing topics on this list.  For those
that might have missed the original post from James Newton,
here's the first part of it again:

<James_newton_quote>
We (the list admins) have found a new feature in the list server software
that may provide a much better way of handling on and off topic (and sort of
off topic, etc..) posts. It would cause the list to work a bit differently
and might cause some confusion at first so we want to explain it and get
some feedback from the list on how best to implement it.

The new version of the list server can track "topics" by looking for
keywords or tags at the start of the subject line (after skipping past the
fw: or re:). It will then filter posts FOR the list members according to
which topics they wish to receive. For example, if we set the possible
topics to:
[PIC], [EE], [OT], and [AD]
we can set "topics of interest to subscribers" to [PIC] only and you will
only see posts with subject lines that start with "[PIC]:" (or "re: [PIC]:"
or "FW: [PIC]:" etc...). Of course you can send a simple command to the list
server that "turns on" the other topics as well. For example if you also
wanted to see [EE] posts (not directly related to the PIC, but still about
engineering) you could send:
spamBeGoneLISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET PICLIST TOPICS: +[EE]
</James_newton_quote>

Well, we finally decided to go ahead and do it.  The results as
reported by James were overall in favor of this.  And it has now
been done.  Those currently subscribed to the PICList need not
worry about missing any posts - you're settings have been automatically
changed by the server to receive all topics.  If you decide you
wish to not receive a certain topic, you may do so by sending:
spam_OUTLISTSERVSTOPspamspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET PICLIST TOPICS: -[EE]
for example, if you wanted to not receive the EE topic.

The topics that have been implemented are the same four as listed by
James.  But as a reiteration, they are:
[PIC] - this is for posts that are about PICs
[EE] - this is for posts that are not necessarily about PICs, but
      are still of interest to the EE community.  An example post
      that would fit this topic would be discussion of the Scenix
      chip.  Or any other microcontroller, for that matter.
[AD] - this is for advertisements of a commercial product or service
[OT] - this is for the way out there stuff. Remember the chicken
      catapult thread?  This is were that thread would go.

Actually, there is a fifth topic.  That one is called Other.  This
topic is where the server puts posts that are either unlabelled or
labelled with a label that the server doesn't recognize.

We understand that this'll be a bit confusing at first.  But we
think that once everyone gets the hang of this, it'll make life
for everyone a little easier.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'All: [ADMIN] Topic use reminder'
2000\05\23@150319 by Mike Werner

picon face
There seems to be some confusion on the use of topic tags.  The
topic tag has to be at the *beginning* of the subject line, and
*must* be followed by a colon.  If you are replying to a tagged
message, then the re: of fw: that gets inserted at the beginning
is okay - the server knows to ignore them.

But by leaving out the colon after the topic tag, the serevr can't
see the topic tag, and so lumps the post into the Other topic.  So
the colon is a critical part of the topic tag.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[OT][AD] LOW COST SEIKO STARTER KIT'
2000\05\23@161428 by WF

flavicon
face
Hi all,

Today i finished a starter kit for learning the SEIKO 7600 (TCP/IP)

It works using the parallel port PC for access all registers and has a
PIC16F84 into the board free for when the user wants to have SEIKO's
control....

First, the user must to study and test all registers using the Parallel Port
PC... the user will receive a BASIC routine for read and write all registers
only...

After a complete study, the PIC16F84 can be connected to SEIKO pins for
EXPERIMENTS...using JUMPERS...

I will produce this KIT in quantities (+-100) and would like to know if
someone is interested...

What do you think?

Miguel Wisintainer

PS: The sample code will be in Delphi, VB, MSC and Cbuilder..
PS: I'm doing samples...

2000\05\23@162511 by James Paul

flavicon
face
WF,

Yes, I would be interested.   I have a project coming up that will
be expected to have internet connectivity.  This TCP/IP stack chip
may well be what I'm looking for.

Could you advise what the approximate cost and delivery time will be?

                                         Thanks and Regards,

                                                Jim

On Tue, 23 May 2000, WF wrote:

{Quote hidden}

KILLspamjimEraseMEspamjpes.com

'ALL: [ADMIN] New list feature implemented'
2000\05\24@133019 by jamesnewton

picon face
Ok. Everybody PLEASE read this, and bear with the learning curve on this.

Start with ONE of the following in your subject lines:
[PIC]:
[EE]:
[OT]:
[AD]:

It needs the braces (for now, although we could dump that) AND the colon
":".

You can assume that anyone who is subscribed is listening to [PIC]:, most
will also be listening to [EE]:, a lot of those will also listen to [OT]:
and a good chunk will listen to [AD]: so... please don't use more than one.
For example, starting a subject with [PIC],[AD] implies that you think there
are people only listing to [AD] who will miss you post if you don't include
[PIC] <GRIN>. You might be thinking that people who don't want ads won't get
it if you tag it as [AD] and [PIC]. Its the other way around... putting the
tag in, ensure that all the people subscribed to that topic WILL get it.

I.e.: Putting a topic tag in, filters the post IN to that topic rather than
filtering it OUT of the other topics like it used to. Ok? Let me say that
again...

Putting a topic tag in, filters the post IN to that topic rather than
filtering it OUT of the other topics like it used to.

The vast majority of the response to my poll was "yes lets do topics" but I
wonder if the learning curve is just too much effort for it to be worth
doing. We can give this another week, and if most people are getting it,
then I'll set up an autoresponder that will nag each and every untagged
post. Otherwise, if most posts are still showing up with out [PIC]:, [EE]:,
[OT]:, or [AD]: at the start of the subject line, I guess we will have to
forget about it.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics'
2000\05\25@141426 by jamesnewton

picon face
Ok, last time, then we just dump it...

SUBJECT LINES IN POSTS TO THE PICLIST NEED TO START WITH ONE OF:

[PIC]:
[EE]:
[OT]:
[AD]:

If you don't use one of these, other people will not see your posts. People
who are interested only in the PIC itself listen to [PIC], people who are
also interested in general engineering issues also listen to [EE] and people
who are also interested in anything PICListers have to say also listen to
[OT]. People who are interested in buying or selling also listen to [AD].
Please pick one that matches the subject of your post and type it at the
start of the subject line (don't forget the colon) and then continue.

The point of this is that it will reduce the likelihood of people posting
comments about the space program with [PIC]: at the start of the subject
line. Then you can tell the list server to only send [PIC]: topics. Also
reduces the workload for the VOLUNTEER, UNPAID, ADMINS (HINT, HINT) <GLARE>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspamBeGonespam@spam@piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

2000\05\25@150701 by Quentin

flavicon
face
I still think you are going to have a tough time convincing people to
post a PIC topic to a PIC list with a [PIC] header. Drop that one and
police the people who post a non PIC message to the list rather.

Quentin

2000\05\25@151530 by jamesnewton

face picon face
It would remove the reminder of having typed [PIC]: which many people need
to be able to realize "hey, this really isn't about PICs, is it?"

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
STOPspamjamesnewton.....spamEraseMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[PICLISTspamBeGonespamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Quentin
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:04
To: KILLspamPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics


I still think you are going to have a tough time convincing people to
post a PIC topic to a PIC list with a [PIC] header. Drop that one and
police the people who post a non PIC message to the list rather.

Quentin

'ALL: [ADMIN] Last try for topics'
2000\05\25@151950 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
(IMHO) You need to give it at least a three week trial before dumping it
alltogether.  I think it can be a good thing, it just needs a bit of time.

-Adam

James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics'
2000\05\25@155116 by jamesnewton

face picon face
And this may have been a bad idea...

...so if it doesn't work out, we will dump it.

I'm just getting very tired of constantly reminding people to mark off topic
posts.

Because, you see, the way it has ALWAYS been involves someone manually
looking at each post (that is me) and then saying (privately, to the poster)
"Hey, what the hell does that have to do with PICs and why are you wasting
everyone's time" and then they say "Oh, right, sorry I forgot" and hopefully
they remember for a week or two until they need to post another question
about Linux (or pick a non-PIC subject) again.

The DIFFERENT way, if they post with out thinking, they will get ONE reply
from the autoresponder saying "Um, didn't you want to post on a given
topic?"

I just wish there was a way to allow people to talk about whatever with the
good and interesting people of the list without them constantly
(accidentally, or whatever) stepping on the need of others to limit their
reading to posts that are actually about PICs.

Forcing everyone to type [PIC]: at the start of the subject line ensures
that they know they are about to write something directly related to the
PIC, while still allowing them to type [OT]: and then talk about UFO's.

<WHINE>But if its too much, then its too much.... 5 little character
characters they can't type</WHINE>

<GRIN>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spam_OUTjamesnewtonEraseMEspam.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\25@155309 by jamesnewton

picon face
Your point is well taken, but if people are "allowed" to post with out a
topic there are two problems....

1) newbies, etc.. who forget that they need to assign a topic will not get
thier post seen by the PIC only people. They will go away thinking no-one
wanted or could help them. I plan to start an autoresponder that reminds
people to TAG subject lines when they post without one.

2) if a bunch of people are posting interesting things to the non-topic
area, people who want to hear that will start wondering what they are
missing and turn it back on. "Oh, we just answered that on the non-topic
channel, don't you subscribe to that?"

But if the way we are talking about now, doesn't work out, I'll be happy to
try something else.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamjamesnewtonspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[OT][AD] LOW COST SEIKO STARTER KIT'
2000\05\26@120455 by Gary Chung

flavicon
face
Count me in too.

Regards
Gary


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Paul" <KILLspamjimspamspamEraseMEJPES.COM>
To: <PICLISTRemoveMEspamSTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 4:23 AM
Subject: Re: [OT][AD] LOW COST SEIKO STARTER KIT


{Quote hidden}

'[AD]: TCP/IP SEIKO STARTER KIT (USING THE PARALLEL'
2000\05\26@143352 by WF

flavicon
face
Here some pictures... ;) of my STARTER KIT

http://www.blusoft.org.br/wf/tcp_ip/

Miguel

Cost: U$97,00 + SHIPMENT

Some features added today....

-BASIC Routine for Read and Write of Seiko Registers in VB, MSC, Delphi and
Cbuilder
-Jumper for redirect the pin PIC for SEIKO
-Pins for external Programming of PIC
-DB9 and DB25 modem output
-Power Supply
-Parallel Cable
-Input For PIC programming compatibled with PROPIC

In production 50 units...

Miguel

2000\05\26@152941 by Andrew Seddon

picon face
> Here some pictures... ;) of my STARTER KIT

I see you have protel autoroute syndrome as well. I just can`t bring myself
to spend 2 days routing it myself when protel does an OK job in 5 minutes.

2000\05\26@162056 by WF

flavicon
face
No, i have the Specctra Autoroute 7.1, i did pay for it U$1245,00

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Seddon <.....seddonaspamspamHOTMAIL.COM>
To: <spamBeGonePICLISTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 5:26 AM
Subject: [AD]: TCP/IP SEIKO STARTER KIT (USING THE PARALLEL PORT)


> > Here some pictures... ;) of my STARTER KIT
>
> I see you have protel autoroute syndrome as well. I just can`t bring
myself
> to spend 2 days routing it myself when protel does an OK job in 5 minutes.

'[ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics'
2000\05\26@191410 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Can you make the autoresponder send back an appropriate response to anything
that doesn't have a standard [xxx] in the header while still letting it
through, at least for a trial period.?

Waddabout [ADMIN]???
I assumed AD was ADvertisement.

What about [RELIGION] :-) :-) :-) :-)  ?

I've been skimming threads and ignoring much stuff lately - too busy (or I
should be) so I hadn't really appreciated that this was being tried - I had
noticed especially [EE] and wondered why it was being done even though I
realsied what was meant. Shows you need to bring it to people's attention at
least a little forcibly.




     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))


{Original Message removed}

2000\05\26@191414 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Can you make the autoresponder send back an appropriate response to anything
that doesn't have a standard [xxx] in the header while still letting it
through, at least for a trial period.?

Waddabout [ADMIN]???
I assumed AD was ADvertisement.

What about [RELIGION] :-) :-) :-) :-)  ?



     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))


{Original Message removed}

2000\05\27@033932 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Russell McMahon wrote:
> Can you make the autoresponder send back an appropriate response to anything
> that doesn't have a standard [xxx] in the header while still letting it
> through, at least for a trial period.?

We're talking still.  I think we'll be posting about this shortly, I've
been gone all day & am catching up on e-mail <G>

> Waddabout [ADMIN]???
> I assumed AD was ADvertisement.

We're trying to train him <G>  We may use [META]: for discussions about
the list (including Admin stuff), there's another tag that we Admins can
use that we could also switch to instead of [Admin] anyways, we'll
figure out a good answer.

> What about [RELIGION] :-) :-) :-) :-)  ?

That one'll get ya shot at, dunno if James will miss or not.  We've had
enough religious strife here, probably...

 Mark

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2000\05\27@120424 by Dan Michaels

flavicon
face
Russell McMahon wrote:
>Can you make the autoresponder send back an appropriate response to anything
>that doesn't have a standard [xxx] in the header while still letting it
>through, at least for a trial period.?
>
>Waddabout [ADMIN]???
>I assumed AD was ADvertisement.
>
>What about [RELIGION] :-) :-) :-) :-)  ?
>
.........

[RELIGION] definitely [NO!!!!] - not tekkie.

[ECHELON] maybe - helps the gov't boys more easily find threads
that may be subversive.

How about [NEWTON] - just kidding <:-)))).

2000\05\28@071741 by Alan B Pearce

face picon face
>How about [NEWTON] - just kidding <:-)))).

Well you could use this to signify the admin thread <:-)))).

2000\05\28@152734 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
[JORY] would object =)

 Mark

Alan B Pearce wrote:
> >How about [NEWTON] - just kidding <:-)))).
>
> Well you could use this to signify the admin thread <:-)))).

'[AD]: New DT209 SimmStick Expansion board now avai'
2000\05\29@230233 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
30-May-2000
New DT209 SimmStick Expansion board now available.

DT209 I/O Expansion Board on a SimmStick This board utilizes three I2C
bus expansion integrated circuits to provide a total of 24 expansion
lines. Each of the three port chips provides 8 i/o lines. These 24 i/o
lines allow for input and output expansion without sacrificing any of
the general control lines on the SimmBus.
http://www.dontronics.com/dt209.html

This interfaces directly with the available SimmSticks for the PICmicro
18, 28, and 40 pin families.

Don McKenzie    TakeThisOuTdonTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEdontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

'[ADMIN] Did the filtering scheme get abandoned?'
2000\05\30@122047 by Don B. Roadman

flavicon
face
I'm still getting some posts marked [OT] after I used the new
commands to reject these posts. I'm wondering if it was
abandoned, or if I did something wrong. I did get a response from
the server indicating that the removal of [OT] was sucessfull, but
still get them (I dont know if I get all of them or not).

'All: [ADMIN] Did the filtering scheme get abandone'
2000\05\30@140435 by Mike Werner

picon face
Don B. Roadman wrote:
> I'm still getting some posts marked [OT] after I used the new
> commands to reject these posts. I'm wondering if it was
> abandoned, or if I did something wrong. I did get a response from
> the server indicating that the removal of [OT] was sucessfull, but
> still get them (I dont know if I get all of them or not).

It has not yet been adandoned.  The reason you are still getting
posts labelled [OT] is because many folks *still* aren't using the
tags correctly.  To correctly use the tags, there *MUST* be a colon
directly after the tag.  And many folks are forgetting the colon.
Either that, or just not even bothering with the tags at all.

This is kinda important, so I'll go over it all again:

THERE MUST BE A COLON AFTER THE TOPIC TAG!

The topic tags are:
[PIC]: - for discussion of Pics and Pic related hardware (such as
        Pic programmers).
[EE]:  - Discussion of topics not necessarily directly related to
        Pic micros, but of interest to the EE community.
[AD]:  - Posts of a commercial nature, such as iems for sale, also
        items wanted to buy.
[OT]:  - Posts that don't fit the above topics.

The tags go at the *beginning* of the subject line, not at the end.
When replying to a tagged post, the Re: of Fw: that the email program
puts on the front of the subject line is okay - the server can deal
with those.

AND DON'T FORGET THE COLON!

::wanders off mumbling::  Wonder if that'll get it across ...
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN] Did the filtering scheme get abandoned?'
2000\05\30@140636 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
We are working on it - I was going to get a post out but got swamped
this weekend.

The problem that happens is that senders MUST send a post with "[OT]:"
for the filter to work properly - if that colon is not there, it's
classified as an "Other" category post.  Send the output of "Query
PICList" my way if you don't see how to turn off the other category (of
course, if you do that, you'll lose any post from someone who's not
properly setting theit topic - This post included!)

We need more education on the list, I need to get on it.

 Mark

Don B. Roadman wrote:
>
> I'm still getting some posts marked [OT] after I used the new
> commands to reject these posts. I'm wondering if it was
> abandoned, or if I did something wrong. I did get a response from
> the server indicating that the removal of [OT] was sucessfull, but
> still get them (I dont know if I get all of them or not).

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'[AD] LCD Displays'
2000\05\30@203840 by mike

picon face
LCD displays from DELL laptop computers, still in
laptop cover.

Don't have any spec or info and don't know how to test
them, so I am selling "as is", each unit for $22 plus
shipping.
Have about 20 units. Free shipping if you take all.

email to <RemoveMElktronKILLspamspamRemoveMEyahoo.com> or call 323-972-7528




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

'[ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics'
2000\05\31@112627 by jamesnewton

picon face
That is what I had intended as a permanent solution. Whether non tagged
messages are sent to members is up to each member, rather than to me or the
autoresponder. If you know what you are doing and you remove your
subscription to the OTHER: topic, you will no longer see non tagged
messages.

[ADMIN] will be sent to topic ALL: which is a special tag that sends the
message to all subscribers no matter what.

[RELIGION] could possibly be set up under [OT]: Lets get this working and
then talk again about it.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[EE]: AT Keyboards --- Not all equal![ADMIN]'
2000\05\31@184425 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Ok Mark, I turned it off, but not until it autoreplied to your reply <EVIL
GRIN>

Lets work up a serious version of a shorter message and try again tomorrow.

I can move most of that to a web page and just include a link.

The point, folks is that if this is going to work, you want to A) put one of
the following at the start of all posts to the list

[PIC]:
[EE]:
[OT]:
[AD]:

and B) turn off your subscription to the other channel that this
autoresponder will clutter up by sending SET PICLIST TOPICS: -Other to
spamBeGoneLISTSERV@spam@spamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU or, in most email clients, click here:
KILLspamLISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-Other

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
EraseMEjamesnewton.....spampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\31@221627 by piclist.com

face picon face
You are missing that the list server will happily filter out ALL the noise
of miss tagged posts, and the autoresponder and all that and you will get
ONLY the properly tagged message about [PIC]: or [EE]: or what ever you
want.

All you have to do is send SET PICLIST TOPICS: -Other to
spamBeGoneLISTSERV.....spamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU or, in most email clients, click here:
TakeThisOuTLISTSERVspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-Other> Then the autoresponder and the "Duh.. how do I unsubscribble?" posts all GO
AWAY.

As the autoreply message says. Please help me phrase it more clearly so that
everyone will understand. After you read it. <SAD GRIN>

Or lead a revolt and I will back off and go back to the way it was...
... I'm really not all that interested in continuing this.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
EraseMEjamesnewtonEraseMEspam@spam@piclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Merrill <jerrymEraseMEspamtech-tools.com>
To: <.....jamesnewton@spam@spamspam_OUTpiclist.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 16:09
Subject: Re: [EE]: AT Keyboards --- Not all equal![ADMIN]


>
> Why should the autoreply go to the list at ALL?  Why should I receive a
> reminder for EVERY message that violates the rules?  Seems to me the
> autoreply will double the noise level (for those of us accepting all
messages).
>
> Am I missing something here?
>
>
> At 05:40 PM 5/31/00, you wrote:
> >Ok Mark, I turned it off, but not until it autoreplied to your reply
<EVIL
> >GRIN>
> >
> >Lets work up a serious version of a shorter message and try again
tomorrow.
> >
> >I can move most of that to a web page and just include a link.
> >
> >The point, folks is that if this is going to work, you want to A) put one
of
{Quote hidden}

> >{Original Message removed}

2000\05\31@225025 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
IMO the way this would work best is that:

1)  The poster sends their message to the list server.
2)  The autoresponder and those subscribed with "All Topics enabled" or
in index or digest mode, would then get that post.
3)  The autoresponder would notice that the post didn't adhere to the
rules.
4)  The autoresponder would then post to the *sender*.
5)  The sender would then realize their error, fix the message's Subject
line, and re-send with a proper Subject line syntax.

I'm guessing Digest mode is going to get less popular for a week or two,
as we train everyone, BUT once we're all re-trained this should only
happen for new posters to the list, so things will self-repair <G>
Think of it same as changing from Parallax to Microchip assembler - it's
different, you get some assembler errors for a while, then things get
better.

(James, is planned to have autoresponder post to whole list or just the
"one who's flirting with 'the Other side'"?

 Mark

piclist.com wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > >{Original Message removed}

2000\05\31@233413 by piclist.com

face picon face
Mark, I don't know if you remember, but due to the way Outhouse does email
(remember I'm a Win guy not Linux) I can't make the responder reply to the
person that actually posted the message, only to the list or to the reply to
address set by the poster IF they set one.

So... I just setup a subscription with ONLY the Other topic selected and
told it to respond to all message with that post and the same subject line.

Please keep in mind that the ENTIRE point of this thing is that EVERYBODY
else turns OFF "Other:" once they get used to putting the tags on. No one
but new subscribers has Other on. So when the newbie subscribes, ignores the
welcome message and posts "Hi, How do I unsubscribble" or "please measure
10k degrees heat in combustion chamber" YOU DON'T SEE IT. He gets an instant
response that tells him, again, how to tag posts and how to get off the
list.

I'm totally amazed that I can't get that across.

Again. Once you get the idea of tagging the topics, you turn Other off by
sending
SET PICLIST TOPICS: -Other to spamLISTSERVspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU or, in most email
clients, click here:
KILLspamLISTSERVKILLspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-Other> Then the autoresponder and the "Duh.. how do I unsubscribble?" posts all GO
AWAY. Only people with Other on see them.

Can someone who is getting this please help explain it to everyone else?
Preferably one of the several hundred who posted a "TOPICS_YES" post to me
when I originally presented the idea and asked if we should try it.

Or if you have a Linux server that can autorespond to untagged posts, using
the buried "on behalf of" email address of the original poster....

Or just put me out of my misery and let me go back to doing it to old way...

James Newton, PICList Admin #?
RemoveMEjamesnewtonspamspam.....piclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Willis <EraseMEmwillisKILLspamspamspam_OUTFOXINTERNET.NET>
To: <PICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 19:48
Subject: Re: [EE]: AT Keyboards --- Not all equal![ADMIN]


{Quote hidden}

noise
> > of miss tagged posts, and the autoresponder and all that and you will
get
> > ONLY the properly tagged message about [PIC]: or [EE]: or what ever you
> > want.
> >
> > All you have to do is send SET PICLIST TOPICS: -Other to
> > @spam@LISTSERVSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU or, in most email clients, click here:
> > EraseMELISTSERV.....spamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-Other> > > Then the autoresponder and the "Duh.. how do I unsubscribble?" posts all
GO
> > AWAY.
> >
> > As the autoreply message says. Please help me phrase it more clearly so
that
{Quote hidden}

one
> > of
> > > >the following at the start of all posts to the list
> > > >
> > > >[PIC]:
> > > >[EE]:
> > > >[OT]:
> > > >[AD]:
> > > >
> > > >and B) turn off your subscription to the other channel that this
> > > >autoresponder will clutter up by sending SET PICLIST TOPICS: -Other
to
> > > >STOPspamLISTSERV@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU or, in most email clients, click here:
> > > >@spam@LISTSERVEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-Other> > > > >
> > > >---
> > > >James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
> > > >
spam_OUTjamesnewtonspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
> > > >PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org
> > > >
> > > >{Original Message removed}


'[EE]: AT Keyboards --- Not all equal![ADMIN]'
2000\06\01@024842 by Mark Willis
flavicon
face
I'm not a Linux guy yet - I do Dos though <G>  It's all LookOut
Express's fault, OK.  I can grok that!  <G>

The problem still exists though.  Obvious from the "Software test end"
over here, unfortunately.

An existing user starts a new thread.  He/She has the '[Other]' topic
turned off, having been on the list for months;  They're having a day
like my yesterday was.  It's NOT pretty.  They forget to put a valid
topic into the Subject line.

All newbies, all admins, all people on Digest mode and Index mode, get
to see the autoresponder's post that complains.  The "offender" doesn't
see anything, though.  An admin has to manually check each posters'
options with "Query Piclist for spamoffender.....spamTakeThisOuTisp.com" and see if they have
the Other option turned on?  Ack!  Well, we can do that if we have to,
it'd suck though.  Badly.

There has to be a better way.  I can make a Dos app that does this, run
it off a FreeWWWebs.Com account on an old spare 286.  Net-Tamer or
Arachne maybe.  Won't be instant to do that, though.  Does anyone on the
list have a better idea on this one?

James - Guess the one thing to do for now is get that 7k message stuffed
onto piclist.com and pass me a URL and I'll think on this.  I hadn't
considered the evil LookOut Expunger as I don't use that.

Mike, any ideas?

 Mark

piclist.com wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> > > > >{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN]: Subscription problems - Better solution?'
2000\06\03@181426 by Brian Gracia

flavicon
face
I have been unsubscribbed from this list a number of times in the last few
months.  I have been talking with the tech support staff and they cannot
find a problem with my account.  They are requesting a copy of any messages
that bounce so they can figure out what is going on.  Can you set up the
listserv software so that when you send me the notice saying I have been
unsubscribbed because of bounced emails, I can get a copy of the header
files and any messages from their server as to why.

I was lasted kicked off this list because of 2 emails bounces in several
days.  I could use some better help to determine what the problem might be
other than the standard message the list spits out.

Thanks,
Brian Gracia
********************************************
Better Produce through Better Control
********************************************

2000\06\03@191605 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Hi, Brian.  (Replied on list as other people may hit this sort of
problem.)

I don't know if getting at those headers is possible;  Mike is the
expert on L-Soft manuals and list settings that we admins CAN get at
<G>  We try to keep the number of messages we receive, somewhat down -
as it could mean another large bunch of "This message hasn't arrived
yet" etc. messages a day otherwise - the crew inside MIT handle a good
number of these settings, plus, most all PICList messages are actually
distributed through L-Soft's mail sending server - as we never see these
error messages, it's hard to figure out who to ask for a full-headers
copy (I'm not sure a human ever reads these!)  We don't even get a
message when a user's unsubscribed by the list for too many Bounce
messages, only way we can tell about that is to ask for a membership
roster of the list or specifics on a particular (ex-) list member.

I do know you can send a re-subscribe message on a regular basis (cron
and a mail sender daemon?), and the listserve will just tell you you're
already on the list most of the time, is one possibility, when you get a
subscription verification you'll know to answer it quickly, if you have
a mail auto-sender.

The problem's not going to be with your account, BTW - suggest to them
that they TraceRoute to cherry.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.0.109] as that's
likely the machine the messages come to you from - if it's a direct
connection, then probably their inbound SMTP server has problems and is
bouncing mail that arrives there from LSoft.  I cc'ed you on this to
hope that I could get a bounce, if I do I'll share the headers with you
(somehow <G>)

 Mark

Brian Gracia wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

2000\06\03@205810 by Mike Werner

picon face
Mark Willis wrote:
> Hi, Brian.  (Replied on list as other people may hit this sort of
> problem.)
>
> I don't know if getting at those headers is possible;  Mike is the
> expert on L-Soft manuals and list settings that we admins CAN get at

::blush:: I wouldn't quite say that.

{Quote hidden}

I've set the server to pass me error messages.  Or, at least I *think*
I managed to do so.  As it currently stands, errors are being handled
in multiple locations, depending on the error.  So that'll make it a
bit tricky to find exactly what is happening with Brian's bounces.  But
I'll keep an eye on what error messages I get.  Brian, next time you
get unsubbed due to a bounce, email me directly to let me know.  My
address is:
spamreznaeousEraseMEspamearthlink.net

{Quote hidden}

I tried to see if that was possible, but didn't have much luck.  The closest
I could find was how to send you *every* error and bounce that comes through.
But I figured you *really* didn't want that. ::grin::

> > I was lasted kicked off this list because of 2 emails bounces in several
> > days.  I could use some better help to determine what the problem might be
> > other than the standard message the list spits out.

We'll see what we can find out for you.  Hopefully something will turn
up in the messages I'll (hopefully) be receiving now.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN]: Duplicate messages'
2000\06\05@134633 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
I think we have someone's mail server echoing messages, I am getting dupes
that are a couple of hours apart.

I am not able to see headers right now because of the convoluted way I get
mail at work, anyone else able to track it down?

BTW, I am not sending two copies of this message just to freak you out :-)

Cheers,

Bob

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@142821 by Phillip Vogel

flavicon
face
What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The PICLIST is
for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else should be
discussed in a different list or newsgroup.

C'mon, liquid level sensing? truck tachometers? These both had [PIC]: labels.
Unfused toner? yeah, maybe EE, but barely. It was MUCH quieter when I could
just filter out [OT].

If this doesn't make sense, then I suggest that we include tags for every
usenet newsgroup [alt.binaries.my.whole.hard.drive]:, [sci.electronics.cad]:
(now there's a novel place to talk about cad systems).

My point is, I subscribed to the PICLIST to get and share PIC information.
Mailing list software (and mail reading software) is just not sophisticated
enought to try to replace usenet, which is what you're trying to do with all
these tags. Sigh...
--
Phillip M. Vogel, President   | "It's not what you've been taught,
Bartal Design Group, Inc.     |  it's what you've learned." (me)
318 Marlboro Road             | +1-201-567-1343 FAX:+1-201-568-2891
Englewood, NJ 07631  USA      | phillipspamBeGonespambartal.com

'All: [ADMIN] Duplicate messages'
2000\06\05@143657 by jamesnewton

face picon face
We seem to have a problem with someone's server posting message back to the
list. Admins are working on it.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspamTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN]: All these tags are fine...'
2000\06\05@151850 by Chris Eddy

flavicon
face
Phillip;  We appreciate your thoughts on the matter.  But I think that the list
works magnificently!  The idea is to allow PIC people, who struggle through a long
list of disciplines, to have access to a fast forum to solve knowledge problems.
I think that James N is doing a great job of administering.  I think the tags are
fine, even though I will keep getting all of it anyhow.  I have gotten good at
swiping entire subjects when they do not interest me.

The PIClist is working stupendously well for an informal collection of
non-affiliated people.  I welcome improvements, and nothing to strip down the
content which already takes place.

I may be injecting personal preference, but I think that religion and politics
would be best elsewhere.  Unless a very religious PIC engineer is running for
office.  As we cover the globe, there is far too much oportunity to offend on
these topics.  I would not portend to lecture a Muslim on my beliefs.

All in favor, say EYE.

Chris Eddy

Phillip Vogel wrote:

> What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The PICLIST is
> for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else should be
> discussed in a different list or newsgroup.

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@153958 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
Well, you make some good points.  Unfortunately the PICList is growing, and as
the number of messages has increased (both on topic and off) we have had to deal
with more information.  Subdividing the current scheme (Two subdivisions:
Regular and [OT]) into a few more subdivisions has allowed me to deal with
messages more effectively.  Sometimes I have time to check [PIC] [EE] [OT], etc,
and sometimes I can only read a few [PIC].  Being able to tell the difference
right away (and thus giving first priority to piclist specific messages) has
helped me out.

But hey, I'm easy.  If the multiple topics idea receives a lot of bad comments,
it'll go the way of the dinosaur.  I can work either way.

-Adam

Phillip Vogel wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[ADMIN]: All these tags are fine...'
2000\06\05@154412 by James Paul

flavicon
face
I tend to agree with Chris.   I think the list is fine the way it
is.  I also agree that there is a lot of chaff with the wheat, but
that's why there is a delete key with every computer.  You just
delete the posts that don't interest you.  I get well over 100
posts a day, most from the PIC list.  It takes me all of 5 minutes
to weed out the ones I have no interest in at all, if I take my time.
Less if I'm in a hurry.  Then I read those that do interest me.
The point is for the amount of effort it takes to delete all the
OT posts that you (I) don't want to see, it just doesn't make any
sense (to me anyway) to raise all this cane about things such as:

"make sure you put this in the subject line"  ...or..

"don't discuss this particular subject"  ..or..

"make sure all subjects are in this order"  ..or..

whatever it is.   It seems to me that more energy is spent (wasted)
in verbalizing what you should and shouldn't do than it would take
to delete those posts that are not on subjcet or specifically deal
with PIC processors.   Mind you I don't condone this type of
behavior.  And I think things should be done the correct way.
But, as far as I'm concerned, it's not worth the bother it would
take me to complain and make the other person comply.  Just as soon
as you get one person straightened out, two more appear.  It would
be a losing battle.


The knowledge of the members of this list is an awesome resource.
That knowledge and expertise comes at a price.  And in my opinion,
a very small price.  That price being you have to deal with the
posts that you are not interested in to get the information you
are interested in.   Come on people, what do you expect, really?
We live in an imperfect world, and no amount of complaining or
restructuring of protocol will make it perfect.  You can always
improve things, but they'll never be perfect.  This list is one of
those things.

Bottom line from my perspective...

I'll take the chaff with the wheat. I get rid of the chaff myself,
and live on the wheat.  No one need be the wiser.

I also think James is doing a fine job administering this list.

Last but not least, for those who want to give me their reasons
why I'm full of it regarding what I just said, address all emails
to spamjimswrongspamjpes.com.   I'll read each one.   If requested, I'll
apologise to those that are offended by my statements.

Okay, I'm done now.


                                           Regards,

                                             Jim



On Mon, 05 June 2000, Chris Eddy wrote:

{Quote hidden}

EraseMEjimKILLspamspamRemoveMEjpes.com

2000\06\05@155032 by James Paul

flavicon
face
I tend to agree with Chris.   I think the list is fine the way it
is.  I also agree that there is a lot of chaff with the wheat, but
that's why there is a delete key with every computer.  You just
delete the posts that don't interest you.  I get well over 100
posts a day, most from the PIC list.  It takes me all of 5 minutes
to weed out the ones I have no interest in at all, if I take my time.
Less if I'm in a hurry.  Then I read those that do interest me.
The point is for the amount of effort it takes to delete all the
OT posts that you (I) don't want to see, it just doesn't make any
sense (to me anyway) to raise all this cane about things such as:

"make sure you put this in the subject line"  ...or..

"don't discuss this particular subject"  ..or..

"make sure all subjects are in this order"  ..or..

whatever it is.   It seems to me that more energy is spent (wasted)
in verbalizing what you should and shouldn't do than it would take
to delete those posts that are not on subjcet or specifically deal
with PIC processors.   Mind you I don't condone this type of
behavior.  And I think things should be done the correct way.
But, as far as I'm concerned, it's not worth the bother it would
take me to complain and make the other person comply.  Just as soon
as you get one person straightened out, two more appear.  It would
be a losing battle.


The knowledge of the members of this list is an awesome resource.
That knowledge and expertise comes at a price.  And in my opinion,
a very small price.  That price being you have to deal with the
posts that you are not interested in to get the information you
are interested in.   Come on people, what do you expect, really?
We live in an imperfect world, and no amount of complaining or
restructuring of protocol will make it perfect.  You can always
improve things, but they'll never be perfect.  This list is one of
those things.

Bottom line from my perspective...

I'll take the chaff with the wheat. I get rid of the chaff myself,
and live on the wheat.  No one need be the wiser.

I also think James is doing a fine job administering this list.

Last but not least, for those who want to give me their reasons
why I'm full of it regarding what I just said, address all emails
to spam_OUTjimswrongTakeThisOuTspam@spam@jpes.com.   I'll read each one.   If requested, I'll
apologise to those that are offended by my statements.

Okay, I'm done now.


                                           Regards,

                                             Jim



On Mon, 05 June 2000, Chris Eddy wrote:

{Quote hidden}

RemoveMEjim@spam@spamRemoveMEjpes.com

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@155240 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Um... I don't understand why you can't still filter out [OT]...???? In fact,
you can filter out [EE] and [AD] as well now... isn't that better, not
worse? Also, you can tell the list server to filter them out for you.

I'd love to hear any specific suggestions on how we can make it better...

I certainly agree that a significant number of members are still not using
the tags as they should and not respecting other members time and/or desire
to stay on topic, but I don't know that removing the tags will improve the
situation. At least people actually have to type [PIC]: when they start a
thread and it should, at least once in a while, remind them that the [PIC]:
tag for PICs only. I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking that we are
better off without using....

[PIC]:
       This label is for posts that are strictly on the topic of PICs.

[EE]:
       This label is for topics that, while not necessarily about PICs, are of
general interest to the EE community.

[AD]:
       This label is for posts advertising a commercial product or service.

[OT]:
       This label is for posts that are completely off the topic of PICs.

When I found myself in your shoes some months ago, I starting sending little
reminders to people (not via the list but directly to the poster) when I saw
posts that had nothing to do with PICs and were not marked [OT]. I looks
like I will never escape the need for that. Are you available to spend some
time helping? Or are you aware of someone (that I'm not) who is getting paid
to help moderate the list and hasn't been doing their for however long?

In fact, let me just ask everyone... if you see someone posting a message
that has DICK to do with PICs under the [PIC]: topic please send them a
friendly little note (no need to be a butt about it) asking them to keep in
mind that this tag is for PIC issues only. If you would like to use it, I've
included my little message which seems to work ok. It doesn't usually cause
a huge flame reaction and most often gets a "oops, sorry" response.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Just a quick note: the below listed post, which you sent to the PICLIST, has
nothing to do with PICs and [PIC]: was at the start of the subject line.
Putting this tag at the beginning of the subject line, causes the message to
be sent to people who have requested that only posts directly related to the
PIC be sent to them. Consider instead adding one of the following:

[EE]:
       This label is for topics that, while not necessarily about PICs, are of
general interest to the EE community.

[AD]:
       This label is for posts advertising a commercial product or service.

[OT]:
       This label is for posts that are completely off the topic of PICs.


The rest of this message is long winded B.S. Feel free to ignore it:

Please understand, I really don't want to offend you or in any way
discourage you from posting your valuable information (or funny remarks
<GRIN>) to the PICLIST.

I'm just pointing out that people who only want to read engineering post
about the PIC would not be able to filter out your post by setting up the
list server or their email program to delete non-PIC subjects.

If you remember to add [EE]:, [OT]:, or [AD]: you can help retain people
(resources) on the list who don't have time or bandwidth to follow
non-[PIC]: posts.

You can post just about anything to the PIC list. Just mark the tread [OT]:
and that's enough for us. If list members don't like it... they can filter
it....

As I have advised other before, if a list member doesn't like something said
in a post they can send the "offenders" <GRIN> a private email asking them
to mark [OT]s. If they get buried, maybe they will. ..or maybe they will
drop off the list and then part of the SIGNAL will be gone forever rather
than just buried in the noise. I don't want to loose your signal and I won't
keep sending you this "reminder" email if you reply and tell me to stop.

My goal is to keep people (like Tjaart, Scott Dattalo, and others and YOU)
from leaving the list rather than have their valuable time wasted by a rash
of off topic posts that are not tagged correctly.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. If you have other questions about
how to get the most out of the PICList, please see the PICList FAQ at:
http://www.piclist.com
</BLOCKQUOTE>

If enough people agree, and do this... mbar it will work better... That's
the best idea I have.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewtonspam_OUTspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'All: [ADMIN] multiple copies of messages'
2000\06\05@161112 by jamesnewton

face picon face
We are working on the dups. Looks like its a .ar server.

Tagging a subject line with a topic tag ENABLES delivery of that post to
people who are subscribed to that topic. This is different than the old
system where tagging EXCLUDED a post from people who were filtering it out.
More than one "enable" still results in only one delivery. E.g. you don't
get two copies of "[PIC]:,[EE]: my bullshit topic" even if you are
subscribed to both [PIC]: and [EE]:.

Let me just direct this to everyone and not only you, Dwayne.

Please note that putting two topic tags into a subject is completely
unnecessary. Everyone subscribed to [EE]: will also be subscribed to [PIC]:
In fact, sort of by definition, if its a [PIC]: topic, it is NOT an [EE]:
topic and vice versa. [PIC]: is for stuff that is SPECIFIC to the PIC which
means that it is NOT of general interest to the EE community. And if it is
of general interest to the EE community, then how can it be specific to
PICs?

PICK ONE TOPIC.

Sorry. I probably shouldn't shout. I'm not mad, I'm just hoping that the
people who were going to ignore this message will notice the uppercase and
read it. <SAD GRIN>

The topic tags are not case sensitive, so you can type [pic]: and it will
work just as well. The "[" and "]" were included so that [OT]: could still
be filtered out by people with email client sorting rules. The ":" is
required by the list server as is the placement at the start of the subject
line.

And finally, all of this already is or should be at
http://www.piclist.com
Adding that to your signature line for PICList posts will allow others to
answer their questions off list.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonspam.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'All: [ADMIN]: Duplicate messages'
2000\06\05@161949 by Mike Werner

picon face
Bob Blick wrote:
> I think we have someone's mail server echoing messages, I am getting dupes
> that are a couple of hours apart.

Yup.  It's defenitely happening again.

> I am not able to see headers right now because of the convoluted way I get
> mail at work, anyone else able to track it down?

Yup, we're working on it.  Hopefully we'll be able to get this resolved
shortly.

> BTW, I am not sending two copies of this message just to freak you out :-)

S'okay.  Neither am I. ::grin::
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@175002 by Don B. Roadman

flavicon
face
On 5 Jun 2000, at 14:27, Phillip Vogel wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I sort of agree. In fact, I actually do agree, but before we throw all
this crap out, I do want to start a thread on how to remove stains
from clothes since I must launder some clothes that I used whilst
rebuilding an engine. And maybe I could slip in a thread on how to
install pasture fence posts, and ....Well, I guess you are right. We
really should throw all the crap out and stick to the subject of PIC. I
*DO* agree.
Don

2000\06\05@181114 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Actually, the really cool thing about all this is that since the topic tag
in the subject line isn't a valid tag, everything that has been said on this
thread has been completely ignored (not even seen) by all the people who
have turned off the other channel by sending SET PICLIST TOPICS: -Other to
LISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU or, in most email clients by clicking on:
EraseMELISTSERV@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-Other

See... for the people who only subscribe to PIC topics to see a thread, you
have to have [PIC]: at the start of the subject line when you compose the
post.... Neat huh? <GRIN>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspamBeGonespamKILLspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'All: [ADMIN]: Duplicate messages'
2000\06\05@184938 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Mike Werner wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
> > I think we have someone's mail server echoing messages, I am getting dupes
> > that are a couple of hours apart.
>
> Yup.  It's defenitely happening again.

Some random ISP out there on the 'Net that's "in the path" is deciding
to throw ALL PicList messages it gets back at the server.  I've e-mailed
them to request that they cease and desist.

> > I am not able to see headers right now because of the convoluted way I get
> > mail at work, anyone else able to track it down?
>
> Yup, we're working on it.  Hopefully we'll be able to get this resolved
> shortly.
>
> > BTW, I am not sending two copies of this message just to freak you out :-)
>
> S'okay.  Neither am I. ::grin::

I'd see it in the headers, then you'd see my message body, and it
wouldn't be pretty =)

> --
> Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
>                               |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
> '91 GS500E                    |
> Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

 Mark

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'[OT]: [ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@191034 by Kbek Tony

flavicon
face
Hi,

>What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The
PICLIST is
>for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else
should be
>discussed in a different list or newsgroup.

I think I must agree, I've been quiet about this as I'm
fairly new at both PIC's and this list. But using
the real time Keyzer list for most of my readings ( the archive
goes straight into the bin :-) ) and looking at the June
postings, there is no other conclusion one can make:
"It's a mess"

I'm all for:

[OT] = Not directly pic related ( i.e [EE] and all other fall into this
category )

EVERYTHING else is PIC related and concerns PIC's.
( thats right 'PIC' in a PIC mailing list what will they come up with
next ? ;-) )

But thats just me.

/Tony



Tony KŸbek, Flintab AB            
ÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ
E-mail: .....tony.kubekKILLspamspamRemoveMEflintab.com
ÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@192104 by l.allen

picon face
Other moments already posted....
>
> > What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The
> > PICLIST is for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs.
> > Anything else should be discussed in a different list or newsgroup.
> >
> > C'mon, liquid level sensing? truck tachometers? These both had [PIC]:
> > labels. Unfused toner? yeah, maybe EE, but barely. It was MUCH quieter
> > when I could just filter out [OT].
> >

......
> >
> I sort of agree. In fact, I actually do agree, but before we throw all
> this crap out, I do want to start a thread on how to remove stains
> from clothes since I must launder some clothes that I used whilst
> rebuilding an engine. And maybe I could slip in a thread on how to
> install pasture fence posts, and ....Well, I guess you are right. We
> really should throw all the crap out and stick to the subject of PIC. I
> *DO* agree.
> Don

I guess all this has been explored "to the max" but the problem for
me is.. at what point is a topic not directly related to PICs?

Are Power Hexfets in or out?  , motors and motor control?  I am
writing hundreds of lines of code for motor control using PICs right
now so I am VERY interested in any topics re motors etc.

The same would be true for the guy with the diesel engine tacho.

Since PIC stands for Peripheral Interface Controller then to ban
Peripheral control topics would seem a might myopic (accidental
pun!).

An endless stream of nothing but USART, I2C , sleep problems
and external memory issues would surely be equally nauseating as
too many OTs?

Just my $12.75 worth (the NZ dollar is dropping fast!)
_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

2000\06\05@204306 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
By all means keep the list open to the (moderately) off-topic posts. Those
who don't want them can now toss them without ever getting them. Those that
want them can read them. (This is beginning to sound like arguments about
pornography!).

I for one have learned a lot of useful things from the OT posts (especially
EE).

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(high performance, high function, low-level software)

'[AD]: Program PICs in Basic'
2000\06\05@210134 by chuck

flavicon
face
If anybody want's to program PICs in Basic check out our packages at:
http://www.elproducts.com

=====
Chuck Hellebuyck
Electronic Products
EraseMEchuck.....spam@spam@elproducts.com
*****Program PICs Like a Pro*********
Complete package for only $279.95
Includes: PBPro Compiler, EPIC Programmer, 16F84 PIC, Cable & Batteries
http://www.elproducts.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\06@093855 by Kbek Tony

flavicon
face
Hi,


>I'd love to hear any specific suggestions on how we can make it
better...

>I certainly agree that a significant number of members are still not
using
>the tags as they should and not respecting other members time and/or
desire
>to stay on topic, but I don't know that removing the tags will improve
the
>situation. At least people actually have to type [PIC]: when they start
a
>thread and it should, at least once in a while, remind them that the
[PIC]:
>tag for PICs only. I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking that we
are
>better off without using....

Hmm..reading the comments on this I think I've been convinced that this
just might be 'the right thing'. And looking more closely to the recent
postings
I also must confess that the 'mess' I saw is mostly due to subject line
LACKING these
tags.

[I'm] [all] [for][.]

/Tony




Tony KŸbek, Flintab AB            
ÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ
E-mail: tony.kubekRemoveMEspamKILLspamflintab.com
ÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ

'[ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\06@133844 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Hi,

I have two suggestions wrt. piclist duplicates and message *quoting*:

1. Every mailing list I've ever been subscribed to, and that does not mean
much, has a mechanism that prevents re-posting of messages, no matter by
whom. And you know what, they all work. I cannot believe that a commercial
quality mailing list software like LISTSERV cannot implement this feature.
In particular the mailing list software cannot receive ANY messages that
have a 'Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list <spam_OUTPICLISTspam_OUTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>'
, and it should dump them on the floor immediately and directly (and notify
someone). (hint hint). Since lsoft.com is running its software on Digital
Unix (look at the headers), I *strongly* believe that this can be done in
about 30 minutes.

2. Almost 50% of the digest I got today was made up of (responders) quoting
messages in whole please note that we are all on the list, thus we all get
the messages proper, and have no use for duplicates, quoted or not. As a
minimum, cut the quoted message in the editor to leave only the relevant
idea(s) to be responded to.

wbr,
 Peter

2000\06\06@162210 by Don B. Roadman

flavicon
face
On 6 Jun 2000, at 20:39, Peter L. Peres wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I get a lot of crap too. I wish there were a way to not only do what
you suggest, but also scan the messages for ignorance, and
delete those that have no relevant content.

'All: [ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\06@163247 by Mike Werner

picon face
Peter L. Peres wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have two suggestions wrt. piclist duplicates and message *quoting*:
>
> 1. Every mailing list I've ever been subscribed to, and that does not mean
> much, has a mechanism that prevents re-posting of messages, no matter by
> whom. And you know what, they all work. I cannot believe that a commercial
> quality mailing list software like LISTSERV cannot implement this feature.
> In particular the mailing list software cannot receive ANY messages that
> have a 'Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLIST.....spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>'
> , and it should dump them on the floor immediately and directly (and notify
> someone). (hint hint). Since lsoft.com is running its software on Digital
> Unix (look at the headers), I *strongly* believe that this can be done in
> about 30 minutes.

That Reply-To line is added by the server automatically.  This way, if
someone just hits Reply in their email client the reply goes where it
probably should be going - to the list.  However, if your email client
puts in a Reply-To line of its own, that line is *not* overwritten by
the server.  This behavior *is* configurable, and it has been configured
this way.  And really I see no reason not to.

BTW - the lsoft machine is not one that we have access to.  And actually,
the server software is running on a VMS machine at MIT.  It all gets relayed
via the lsoft site.

> 2. Almost 50% of the digest I got today was made up of (responders) quoting
> messages in whole please note that we are all on the list, thus we all get
> the messages proper, and have no use for duplicates, quoted or not. As a
> minimum, cut the quoted message in the editor to leave only the relevant
> idea(s) to be responded to.

This is very true.  It is also a *very* common problem.  Of the nearly
thirty email liosts I'm on, it happens on practically all of them.

I'm slowly working on revising the welcome message that all new subscribers
receive - I'll make sure to address this in it.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\06@173717 by William K. Borsum

flavicon
face
<x-flowed>Adding my penny's worth--I have no problem with an extract of the content
of the last message, but nothing beyond that--other than some way to keep
all message subjects close enough textually so they will sort out together,
and not all over.

Also, if there was some way to kill unsolicited attachements--like those
.VCF thingies, and other files that just clutter up and get in the way.  To
my mind, attachments should be sent directly to the intended recipient OFF
LIST--and only if requested.

Ignorance is a sacred void waiting to be filled.  I plead ignorance a
lot--which is why I put questions on the list, and respond when I can to
the questions of others.  Stupidity, selfishness, greed, thoughtlessness,
on the other hand.........

Kelly


At 01:20 PM 6/6/00, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just Switched to Cable-Net.   If you get duplicate messages, please let me
know asap.

William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Seismic Instrumentation Systems
<borsumspamdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

</x-flowed>

'All: [ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\06@193506 by Mike Werner

picon face
Phillip Vogel wrote:
> What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The PICLIST is
> for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else should be
> discussed in a different list or newsgroup.
>
> C'mon, liquid level sensing? truck tachometers? These both had [PIC]: labels.

Both projects were being controlled by PICs, so yes.  Though the subject
did wander a bit from the PIC itself, so perhaps should have been retaged
as EE.

> Unfused toner? yeah, maybe EE, but barely.

Unfused toner being used to make printed circuit boards.  Most definitely EE.

> It was MUCH quieter when I could
> just filter out [OT].

And you still can.

> If this doesn't make sense, then I suggest that we include tags for every
> usenet newsgroup [alt.binaries.my.whole.hard.drive]:, [sci.electronics.cad]:
> (now there's a novel place to talk about cad systems).
>
> My point is, I subscribed to the PICLIST to get and share PIC information.
> Mailing list software (and mail reading software) is just not sophisticated
> enought to try to replace usenet, which is what you're trying to do with all
> these tags. Sigh...

And you are welcome to turn off all topics other than the PIC topic.  You
will then no longer receive anything not marked with the [PIC]: tag in
the subject line.  To do so, send a message to:
STOPspamlistservspam_OUTspamRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu
You may put anything in the subject line - it gets ignored.  In the body
of the message, put:
set piclist topics: [PIC]
and you will have your wish.

<rant>
And no, we're *not* trying to replace Usenet with these tags.  We set up
the server this way so that those like you who don't want anything but
strictly PIC-related posts would have an easy way to filter tham out.  The
*server* does all the filtering for you.  No extra load is placed on your
email client whatsoever.  Whereas the list server is perfectly capable of
doing the filtering directly.

Using these tags also retains the random BSing that gets spawned by many
threads.  That quality is common to nearly every list that I am subscribed
to.  Last time I counted, I'm on close to thirty different lists.  And
that random BSing ocurs on nearly every one of those lists.  This is a
*community*.  Random conversation occurs in a community.  And by providing
a sanctioned outlet for that BSing through the [OT] tag - which any that are
not interested in may *easily* filter out - I can hope that the sense of
community here on the list will be strengthened.
</rant>
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'All: [ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\06@195600 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
> BTW - the lsoft machine is not one that we have access to.  And
> actually, the server software is running on a VMS machine at MIT.

mitvma.mit.edu is an IBM system running, I believe, MVS.

VMS is a nice, robust operating system from DEC (Digital Equipment
Corp), now absobed into Compaq, running on VAX and Alpha CPUs.

                                               Lee Jones

2000\06\06@202551 by Mike Werner

picon face
Lee Jones wrote:
> > BTW - the lsoft machine is not one that we have access to.  And
> > actually, the server software is running on a VMS machine at MIT.
>
> mitvma.mit.edu is an IBM system running, I believe, MVS.
>
> VMS is a nice, robust operating system from DEC (Digital Equipment
> Corp), now absobed into Compaq, running on VAX and Alpha CPUs.

I misspoke - it's running VM, not VMS.  I'm not very familiar with either
of them, unfortunately.  And this is not the first time I've gotten the
two names mixed up.  Nor, I fear, will it be the last.  Considering how
much of the list config must be done differently on a VM machine, I should
have the fact down pat by now.  But I'm just terrible with names. ::grin::
Always have been.  Ah well.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\06@203416 by Phillip Vogel

flavicon
face
> I get a lot of crap too. I wish there were a way to not only do what
> you suggest, but also scan the messages for ignorance, and
> delete those that have no relevant content.

He says this after quoting the entire original message, half of which was
asking people to NOT do that.... sheesh.

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\07@032820 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Lance, I agree. This is really not a PIC list it's an embedded
controller list focusing on using PIC processors. If we were limited
to only discussing PIC software, this place would cease to exist....

  - Tom

At 11:17 AM 6/6/00 +1200, Lance Allen wrote:
[snip]
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Handley
New Age Communications
Since '75 before "New Age" and no one around here is waiting for UFOs ;-)

'All: [ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\07@102535 by dal wheeler

flavicon
face
I like the idea of the other tags but I'm not sure of the utility of the
[PIC] tag.  Shouldn't that be assumed to be default?  Maybe I'm missing a
point.


> And you are welcome to turn off all topics other than the PIC topic.  You
> will then no longer receive anything not marked with the [PIC]: tag in
> the subject line.  To do so, send a message to:
> listservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu
> You may put anything in the subject line - it gets ignored.  In the body
> of the message, put:
> set piclist topics: [PIC]
> and you will have your wish.
>

2000\06\07@104237 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
If you had the default set to no tag at all, then the system would be
pointless.  All the OT's AD's and EE's that people forget to tag will end up
in your inbox, even if you want PIC stuff only.  The point is to try and
help everyone.  People can target their posts to the correct audience, and
everyone can choose what, and what not recieve from the list server.

I find it very usefull, even though I have chosen to receive everything,
having a definate tag in the subject makes sorting my mail that much easier.
I have it set so that each topic goes into a different folder.  That way I
can read all the PIC stuff, and scan through the other stuff and quickly
delete anything that dosen't interest me.

I hope we keep this system.

Mike

> {Original Message removed}

2000\06\07@171150 by Don B. Roadman

flavicon
face
On 7 Jun 2000, at 8:17, dal wheeler wrote:

> I like the idea of the other tags but I'm not sure of the utility of
> the [PIC] tag.  Shouldn't that be assumed to be default?  Maybe I'm
> missing a point.
>
Indeed, you are missing the point. Currently, there is only about
20% of messages which are even remotely related to pic. Most of
the rest are not related to pic, so it would be foolish to have a
default to [PIC]:  Maybe the default category should be [OT]: The
[EE]: category runs a close second to [OT]:, but actually there is
very little in this category that actually has to do with electrical
engineering. I propose a new category which should now be made
the default. The [BS]: category. This way, if you dont put a [*]: tag
on the message, it will have a much higher probability of being
categorically correct, right off the bat!

2000\06\07@172402 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
I propose a new category which should now be made the
   default. The [BS]: category. This way, if you dont put a [*]: tag
   on the message, it will have a much higher probability of being
   categorically correct, right off the bat!

Isn't that the way it actually IS working, with the slightly
different default catagory of "[Other]:" ?

BillW (who is happilly continuing to get and skim everything.)

2000\06\07@173028 by l.allen

picon face
Don wrote...


> >
> Indeed, you are missing the point. Currently, there is only about
> 20% of messages which are even remotely related to pic. Most of
> the rest are not related to pic, so it would be foolish to have a
> default to [PIC]:  Maybe the default category should be [OT]: The
> [EE]: category runs a close second to [OT]:, but actually there is
> very little in this category that actually has to do with electrical
> engineering. I propose a new category which should now be made
> the default. The [BS]: category. This way, if you dont put a [*]: tag
> on the message, it will have a much higher probability of being
> categorically correct, right off the bat!

I think Don is way off beam here...

I hate to be a kill joy but the PIC runs on electricity and is subject
to the laws of physics.
It can fail to function as desired due to wrong capacitor selection,
static discharges, EMI, overheating, low voltage etc etc etc.
Also.. it has been known that some people (call them strange
maybe) actually use PICs to control other devices like LCDs,
frequency synths, motors, solenoids even Christmas tree lights.

The OTs are not about knitting or great railway bridges of Britain,
they mostly revolve around electricity, comm standards and the
like.
I would add that most really good ideas for equipment is often
serendipitous.







_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

2000\06\08@040417 by riest

flavicon
face
This is what I would do.

Just leave the tags as the are, don't invent to many tags.
[PIC] Is really not necesarry. But is mostly software related. No tag
simple means it's PIC related. This is the lists name right? This
includes wachdog setup, RS232 setup PID software design. etc.
etc.

[EE] is for Electronic stuff directly related to PIC. This includes
power supply problems, capicators, board design etc. etc.
hardware PID setup and design.

[OT] is just way offtopic like How to draw a line in VB. :-) If you
need to know how to draw a line on a LCD screen, it just's belongs
to PIC ofcourse. Need a multi tasking kernel? Just as it to [PIC].

the PIC-list for me is
1) Software [PIC] or nothing
2) Hardware [EE] or nothing
3) Other stuff [OT]

But mosty it's commen cense!


Filtering is UP TO TO CLIENT, NOT TO THE LIST SERVICE!!!!!!
Nowday's every system has a way for filtering e-mail. For unix use
procmail, for windows use outlook, p-mail or all those other clients.
A tag siply makes it easy to filter out stuff. Creating many tags is
just confusing.

If we really want to set a filter on the server side I would deside this:
1) If the server finds a tag, a reply will send to the sender.
2) If the server does not find a tag, a reply is send to the list.

Ries

'[ADMIN] I2C Routines in a mess'
2000\06\08@174641 by Daniel Hart

flavicon
face
Andy,
I believe the rules of the list call for simple text transmission. I adhere to this strictly because I cannot risk introducing a virus into my employer's network. Therefore I will open no attachments. Just FYI.
Dan
 {Original Message removed}

'All: [ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\08@211608 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
If you don't use the [PIC]: tag, expect some people who're filtering out
everything BUT the [PIC]: tag, to not see your post, and the
autoresponder (looks like I'll be doing that!) to harass you for posting
without an appropriate tag.  (this post, for example, would get ME
harassed, All by itself isn't a valid tag, should be [All]: instead.)

All tags need a colon after them, and include square brackets.

The tags let us filter for non-digest, non-index people, at the list
server - we Admins have to stay open on all topics, of course - Someone
who's paying $$$ per day for their e-mail because the only internet
access they have is DirecPC with a cell phone call-in, or has only the
option of a 9600 baud, long distance radio modem connection in Ghana
that costs too much, can cut down on their PICList e-mails thus their
expenses.  My brother once was stuck paying too much once (only ISP he
could reach was long distance!), unfair to stick people with messages
they don't want, so we've set up filtering.

 Mark

Ries van Twisk wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'[ADMIN]: tags'
2000\06\08@213447 by Don B. Roadman

flavicon
face
On 8 Jun 2000, at 18:15, Mark Willis wrote:

> If you don't use the [PIC]: tag, expect some people who're filtering
> out everything BUT the [PIC]: tag, to not see your post, and the
> autoresponder (looks like I'll be doing that!) to harass you for
> posting without an appropriate tag.  (this post, for example, would
> get ME harassed, All by itself isn't a valid tag, should be [All]:
> instead.)
>
I really hope this system eventually works out. I'm one of those
people that does have a pretty slow connection, so It would be nice
if the system does work out. I think it may have been discussed
earlier, but I would like to see the server simply ignore any  post
that doesnt have a tag (or maybe return it to the sender with a
message attached on tag useage?). I turned off the [OT]
messages, and I STILL get more [OT] than pic messages because
the posters arent using the tags. I think the only way to make it
work is to force it. A person that doesnt use the tags will eventually
learn to do so when he doesnt see his post.

2000\06\08@220124 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Don B. Roadman wrote:
> On 8 Jun 2000, at 18:15, Mark Willis wrote:
> > If you don't use the [PIC]: tag, expect some people who're filtering
> > out everything BUT the [PIC]: tag, to not see your post, and the
> > autoresponder (looks like I'll be doing that!) to harass you for
> > posting without an appropriate tag.  (this post, for example, would
> > get ME harassed, All by itself isn't a valid tag, should be [All]:
> > instead.)
> >
> I really hope this system eventually works out. I'm one of those
> people that does have a pretty slow connection, so It would be nice
> if the system does work out. I think it may have been discussed
> earlier, but I would like to see the server simply ignore any  post
> that doesnt have a tag (or maybe return it to the sender with a
> message attached on tag useage?). I turned off the [OT]
> messages, and I STILL get more [OT] than pic messages because
> the posters arent using the tags. I think the only way to make it
> work is to force it. A person that doesnt use the tags will eventually
> learn to do so when he doesnt see his post.

L-Soft's software won't do all that, and they're not likely to make it
do that just because it'd be handy for us - I'll be writing a Dos
program to handle that, have a machine here call my ISP multiple times a
day, then "crunch" the PICList mail it receives and write messages out
to the PICList members who post messages that are without properly
formed tags.  It'll also take care of some other problems like when the
MIT list server admins mess with our list headers for whatever reason -
it'll show us that something changed, and what it was.  Should be an
improvement over the current situation.

 Mark

'All: [ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\08@234244 by Mike Werner

picon face
Mark Willis wrote:
> If you don't use the [PIC]: tag, expect some people who're filtering out
> everything BUT the [PIC]: tag, to not see your post, and the
> autoresponder (looks like I'll be doing that!) to harass you for posting
> without an appropriate tag.  (this post, for example, would get ME
> harassed, All by itself isn't a valid tag, should be [All]: instead.)

Uh, actually All: *is* valid and [All]: is *not* valid..  The only reason
the other tags (i.e. [PIC] [EE] [AD] and [OT]) have the[]'s around them
is that's the way I configured it.  The topics All and Other are system
defined, and can't be redefined by us.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN] I2C Routines in a mess'
2000\06\09@031809 by Caisson

flavicon
face
Van: Daniel Hart <TakeThisOuTdhartRemoveMEspamNBSTECH.COM>
Aan: spamBeGonePICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Onderwerp: Re: [ADMIN] I2C Routines in a mess
Datum: donderdag 8 juni 2000 23:43

> Andy,
> I believe the rules of the list call for simple text transmission. I
adhere to this strictly
> because I cannot risk introducing a virus into my employer's network.
Therefore I will
> open no attachments. Just FYI.
> Dan

In IE3 :

1) Left-Click attachment ONCE.
2) Press & hold CTRL-Key. Left-click attachment again.
3) A "Save as" box will appear.  Select a directory & save the file.
4) Open NotePad (or other, maybe binary, viewers) and load the file into
it.

If you can't read it then, it's not a Text-file.

Regards,
 Rudy Wieser

'All: [ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\09@044936 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
Hi,

Mike Werner wrote:
> That Reply-To line is added by the server automatically.  This way, if
> someone just hits Reply in their email client the reply goes where it
> probably should be going - to the list.

What I meant was, that messages bounced back to the list server by broken
hosts do not have a new Reply-To: , they have the original one, which is
RemoveMEpiclistspamspammitvma.edu. The LISTSERV should filter these messages.

This is not my idea and it does work well on other mailing list software.

Peter

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\09@091919 by pandersn

flavicon
face
So Tom<

What is the % of market for PIC, Atmel, Motorola, etc. Let's say for
devices in the F84 and F873 market range? Can anybody point me to that
data?

Phil

On Wednesday, June 07, 2000 2:28 AM, Tom Handley
[SMTP:RemoveMEthandleyspamTELEPORT.COM] wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'All: [ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\09@114510 by jamesnewton

face picon face
Umm... actually, All: is a valid tag and [All]: is not. We only kept the
[]'s for the existing tags so that people who had already set up rule based
sorting, etc... of the messages could continue to use that. The []'s are a
pain to type and really not necessary for topic tagging since the tag must
always be at the start of the subject line and separated by a colon. They
ARE necessary for email clients to filter/sort since there is typically no
support for detection of tags via position in the subject line.

So the list of possible tags is (again):

All:
which I was sort of hoping that everyone but the admins would not find out
about or, in general, not use 'cause it can't be filtered out. It should
only be used for posts that are of importance to everyone on the list and
which really can not be ignored.... um... like this one... <GRIN>

Other:
which gets added to all posts that don't have another tag and is starting
to get ignored more and more as people who are comfortable with the tags
send SET PICList TOPIC: -Other to spamLISTSERVKILLspamspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
TakeThisOuTLISTSERVKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-other> thereby shutting off delivery of untagged posts.

[PIC]:
 which is the main channel and which is required because typing it at the
start of the subject line reminds members that they should be posting
something that is specific to the PIC microcontroller. When people don't
think, they don't tag, then they (will) get an automated response that
reminds them.

[EE]:
 which is for posts that are generic to many different microcontrollers or
otherwise of interest to the engineering community in general

[OT]:
 which is for posts that have nothing to do with anything. Post what ever
you want as long as it's not hateful, *ist, religious, or political.

[AD]:
 which is for buying and selling stuff. Don't SPAM, do post [AD]:'s.

AND THE COLON IS REQUIRED. Because the server requires it and none of us
have the ability to re-program the server. Its running at MIT and its
proprietary software from LSOFT. We are damn lucky to even have access to
it. For free. Without charging membership fees for the list. TANSTAAFL.

Re: typing the tags... it seems that lowercase works just as well as upper,
so [pic]:, [ee]:, [ot]:, and [ad]: are apparently also valid and are easier
to type.

And Mark is dead right about members having the OPTION of filtering on the
server. We forget that some of the best minds who really lack a good
connection with the technical world are stuck in some of the least developed
countries or in areas of the US that have only high cost, slow, connections.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
@spam@jamesnewtonspamBeGonespampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'All: [ADMIN] I2C Routines in a mess'
2000\06\09@154148 by Mike Werner

picon face
Daniel Hart wrote:
> Andy,
> I believe the rules of the list call for simple text transmission.

That's not quite correct.  Posts in HTML are indeed discouraged.  However,
attachments of source code or schematics - to name just a few possibilities -
are certainly permitted.

> I adhere to this strictly because I cannot risk introducing a virus into
> my employer's network. Therefore I will open no attachments. Just FYI.

When using Outlook, it is certainly a good thing to be careful with
attachments.  However, you will be missing lots of code snippets and
example circuits.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'All: [ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\09@213614 by Mike Werner

picon face
Peter L. Peres wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Mike Werner wrote:
> > That Reply-To line is added by the server automatically.  This way, if
> > someone just hits Reply in their email client the reply goes where it
> > probably should be going - to the list.
>
> What I meant was, that messages bounced back to the list server by broken
> hosts do not have a new Reply-To: , they have the original one, which is
> @spam@piclistspam_OUTspammitvma.edu. The LISTSERV should filter these messages.

Ermm ... I'm not quite following you here.  If you are referring to the
occasional doubling of messages caused by a certain domain sending them back
to the list, then the only thing that can be done is either ban that domain
or send nastygrams to the domain asking that they fix their mail server.
(Okay, that might be a slight simplification of things, but really there's
*nothing* that could be done at the server level.)

If you are talking about bounce messages caused by a nonexistant user, or
a user's mailbox being full, or any of the numerous other error of that
type, then I can assure you that what few make it to the list are
unintentional.  They are also completely unpreventable by the server.
The one's that make it to the list are because the sending site is a using
broken server that doesn't conform to openly published standards.  There
is a predefined address that erors like that are to be sent to - the server
can be told where to send them on to.  Currently, I'm receiving copies of
those bounce messages - they come to about three to four thousand messages
per day.

As for the Reply-To: line on messages like that, if the original message as
received by the server doesn't have a Reply-To: line then the server puts
one in.  Most bounce messages are unlikely to have a Reply-To: line.
Therefor one gets added by the server.

> This is not my idea and it does work well on other mailing list software.

And as near as I can tell it work just fine here as well.  If there is
a specific instance that you can point me at, I'll certainly see what I
can do.  I can't make any promises about effectiveness - I'm still learning
what can be done with the server software - but I can promise that I'll do
the best I can.


Something just occured to me - possibly the bounce messages that you are
seeing are being sent to you directly and not going through the list at
all?  After all, it has been a *long* time since I've seen an actual bounce
message come through on the list.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

2000\06\09@215806 by Randy A.

picon face
Personally, I haven't been getting very many bounced or duplicated mails.  I
would lean toward your suggestion that they may not be going thru the list.

Randy Abernathy

2000\06\10@112814 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>Mike Werner, bounces on the list, duplicate messages

Ok, I am about 48 hours 'out of phase' with the list because I am subscribed
to digests and I handle my mail by batch, all at once.

Therefore, when I talk about dupicates today, I mean those from before two
days ago, in this case, last week's duplicate storm.

While I can't see the headers of re-posted messages (in a digest) I know
that LISTSERV adds a Reply-To: and that the bouncing or duplicating server
does not likely remove it. Therefore messages with a Reply-To: of listerv
should not be re-entered into the list.

I am sorry about the large quantity of duplicates and junk you have to
handle. I just thought I saw a way to reduce that load.

wbr,

       Peter

2000\06\10@112819 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>wrt duplicates not coming through the list

I never got any duplicates from outside the list, all were inside digests.
Duplicates from offlist cannot reach me due to draconic mail filters on the
way.

On another line: Messages in digests are separated by a line like this:

------------------------------

this is not such a good idea, since many people use such lines in thie .sigs
etc., and LISTSERV does not escape them.  Could this be changed to a MIME
style separator like:

--------------05Ba_2436547889322az

? (but without making it a proper MIME separator so readers don't split it
into parts). The number could be fixed - perhaps a md5sum of a date string
or something. This would be really useful for us digest readers.

Peter

2000\06\10@205848 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Peter L. Peres wrote:
> >wrt duplicates not coming through the list
>
> I never got any duplicates from outside the list, all were inside digests.
> Duplicates from offlist cannot reach me due to draconic mail filters on the
> way.
>
> On another line: Messages in digests are separated by a line like this:
>
> ------------------------------
>
> this is not such a good idea, since many people use such lines in thie .sigs
> etc., and LISTSERV does not escape them.  Could this be changed to a MIME
> style separator like:
>
> --------------05Ba_2436547889322az
>
> ? (but without making it a proper MIME separator so readers don't split it
> into parts). The number could be fixed - perhaps a md5sum of a date string
> or something. This would be really useful for us digest readers.

Let's just say "We haven't had really good luck, so far, in overcoming
L-Soft's Corporate inertia" on some things.  If we move the list to a
different server (anyone volunteer?  <G>) and coded this ourselves, we
could do as we wished.  As things stand I have not reliably even
received "go away" responses from L_Soft when I post to them.  Thus I'd
guess this is unlikely to change.

Few digests are done properly, I've noticed that, definitely...

> Peter

 Mark

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'[AD]RE: [EE]:Telemetry encoding'
2000\06\15@122505 by Don Hyde

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face
I feel I would be remiss not to include our company's website in this
discussion:

http://www.axonn.com

We make some really cool radios for telemetry.  They may be too expensive
for your application, and our sales force is not well geared to handle small
(or maybe even mid) quantities, but the radios are very nice.

Our AX620 transmitter is a PC board about 1"x2" which includes encoder,
transmitter, and antenna.  It is direct-sequence spread spectrum in the 900
MHz "unlicensed" band (one sample of your finished product needs to go to an
FCC test house for an official sticker, then the rest are OK), and gets a
1-mile range out of about 50 milliwatts.  Set up to send a burst every 5
minutes or so for a burglar alarm application (or instantly if an alarm
occurs), it will run 5 years on a 3V lithium camera battery.  It has 4
digital alarm inputs, or you can talk to it serially at 9600 baud to give it
packets of up to 32 bytes to send.

The AX530 receiver is the size of a credit card (except it's 1/2" thick),
and is usually hooked up to a PC via the serial port.  Receivers
(tranceivers and repeaters also available) are more complicated and
expensive than transmitters, so typical applications have as many as 1000
transmitters per receiver.

2000\06\15@124125 by M. Adam Davis

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So, say one of us bought 1000 tx/rx pairs, would your company handle that size?
And how much would they be in that quantity?

-Adam

Don Hyde wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[ADMIN]: Repeated messages again'
2000\06\16@043842 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
we seem to have a dose of repeated messages again due to bounces. Are they
coming from the same source as in the past?

'[ADMIN]:Mail sent last sunday'
2000\06\16@101714 by Graham North

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face
I have just received to emails that were sent Sunday 11 June.

Any idea what's going on?

Thanks
Graham North

'Miniature valves [ADMIN]'
2000\06\16@104951 by H.P. de Vries

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Yeah, I keep getting duplicate mails lately. Threads that have been deleted
long ago keep reappearing misteriousely...
Maybe they're to important to mis?? <grin>

Hans
On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:12:23PM +0100, Graham North wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'[ADMIN]: Re: Mail sent last sunday'
2000\06\16@111912 by James Paul

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face
I've gotten about 35-40 of these so far.  And it's only 10:15AM.
At this rate, I'll have well over 250 messages in my inbox at the
end of the day.   I've already read and started deleting them.
I have no idea what is going on.

                                        Regards,

                                          Jim




On Fri, 16 June 2000, Graham North wrote:

>
> I have just received to emails that were sent Sunday 11 June.
>
> Any idea what's going on?
>
> Thanks
> Graham North

spam_OUTjimTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEjpes.com

2000\06\16@124841 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
When you look at the header of the email, you will see that it is being bounced
back from an ISP.

'[PICLIST] [ADV] New PICmicro Development Tool Anno'
2000\06\26@004424 by Ben Wirz

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Wirz Electronics is pleased to announce that a new version of the YAP
PICmicro Development System is now available.  The YAP2 Kit was designed by
Myke Predko for use with his widely popular Programming and Customizing the
PIC Microcontroller Book. When combined with Myke's book, the YAP2
Development Kit is an ideal place for the PIC newcomer to start.

Feel free to visit our website for more information:

http://wirz.com/YAP/index.html

Sincerely,

Ben Wirz
RemoveMEbenspamspamKILLspamwirz.com
Wirz Electronics

'[AD]: New PICmicro Development Tool Announcement'
2000\06\26@215929 by Ben Wirz

flavicon
face
Hello Everyone,

       Wirz Electronics is pleased to announce that a new version of the YAP
PICmicro Development System is now available.  The YAP2 Kit was designed by
Myke Predko for use with his widely popular Programming and Customizing the
PIC Microcontroller Book. When combined with Myke's book, the YAP2
Development Kit is an ideal place for the PIC newcomer to start.

Feel free to visit our website for more information:

http://wirz.com/YAP/index.html

Sincerely,

Ben Wirz
benspamwirz.com
Wirz Electronics

2000\06\26@224658 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Wirz <benspam_OUTspamWIRZ.COM>
To: <EraseMEPICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 9:58 PM
Subject: [AD]: New PICmicro Development Tool Announcement


> Hello Everyone,
>
>         Wirz Electronics is pleased to announce that a new version of the
YAP
> PICmicro Development System is now available.  The YAP2 Kit was designed
by
> Myke Predko for use with his widely popular Programming and Customizing
the
{Quote hidden}

'[PIC]: dF/dt Gradient slew +[admin]: [ot]: [bs]:'
2000\06\28@115057 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
face
On Wed, 28 Jun 2000, Peter Betts wrote:

> Resent again with : after PIC. Why so strict?

Because the piclist has become a free-for-all mailing list and the
administrators have chosen to annoy all posters with standards to enforce proper
behavior. The PIC/non-pic traffic ratio has dramatically increased because all
pic messages such as yours, get posted twice. The goal, of course, is to provide
a means for creating filters that allow you're mail reader to select which
messages will be seen. In other words, if you subscribe to the pic list because
you're interested in PIC microcontrollers, then you can add a filter to your
mail reader that only expose those messages with [pic]: in the subject line. If
you join the pic list because you're only interested in posting and reading off
topic information then you filter only those messages with [ot]: . In reality,
threads vary from being pic related to off topic to ee to etc. Consequently, I
suspect most people will end up enabling all the tags. And we end up going full
circle back to the old bad days, except that we get the 'this is a repost
because I forgot the proper tag' messages.

But we digress from PIC PLLs.

{Quote hidden}

Your understanding is correct.

{Quote hidden}

You're going to need two phase accumulators to accomplish. One will be the PLL
phase accumulator. Although, you could use a different algorithm to measure the
incoming frequency. For example, you could measure the period of the incoming
waveform and average several of those messages with a digital filter to obtain
an average period. Then this average period could be used to create the phase
delta for your second phase accumulator. The digital filter could provide the
frequency smoothing you seek.

{Quote hidden}

Here's the code that implements the above hardware:

   movf  IOPORT,w        ; read the current state of input and control
   xorwf ioport_save,w   ; get the difference with the last time it was read
   xorwf ioport_save,f   ; store this copy for the next time

   btfsc ioport_save,CONTROL_BIT  ; If the control is high
    clrf counter                  ; then reset the counter

   andwf ioport_save,w   ; If the input has just gone
   andlw (1<<INPUT_BIT)  ; from low to high
   skpz                  ; then
    incf counter,f       ; increment the counter

   clrw                          ;assume counter bits 1,2 are high
   btfsc counter,1               ; if bit 1 is low
    btfss counter,2              ;  or bit 2 is low
     movlw (1<<OUTPUT_BIT)       ;   then the assumption was wrong

   btfsc ioport_save,INPUT_BIT   ; If the input is low
    andlw ~(1<<OUTPUT_BIT)       ; then so should the output be

   movwf  IOPORT


{Quote hidden}

It looks to me that if the control is de-asserted that the output would be the
input with 4 out of 16 pulses being suppressed. If the frequency of the control
is greater than half the frequency of the input, then the output would exactly
match the input. If the control is between 0 and one half the input then any
where bewteen 1 and 4 pulses out of 16 will be suppressed. In some cases, a
pulse may be partially suppressed (e.g. control is asynchrounous to input).

Scott

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